Another possibility would be either a university dance department or the department that does human performance (sports) and/or physical therapy. They might have the required gear to analyze dance motions. But, they will probably ask, what problem are you trying to solve? Once you have the information, how will you use it? (Or, how will it help me get tenure?) --jh-- On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 7:36 PM Chris Lahey <clahey(a)clahey.net> wrote: Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

Are you actually thinking of doing this? Why? Would it help anyone dance better? If someone does this kind of thing for work and could tap into those resources, it might be practical. Otherwise, this looks like the kind of setup that would require significant thought, effort, and expense. One approach would be to green-suit up in a video-game studio, and then tap into the calculations that the game software uses to create game motions from human ones. That wouldn't be measurements of forces directly, but it would be pretty comprehensive. You'd know where all the momentum went and it would calculate transmitted forces through every surface, which you could sum for the hand and arm, etc. They might also have force sensors of some sort. Somebody must have, at some point in the development of those systems. --jh-- On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 3:17 PM Chris Lahey &lt;clahey(a)clahey.net&gt; wrote: > Does anyone have any thoughts about how we can measure some of this? I > can definitely imagine a force pad on someone's back to measure the > tension, but I'm a bit lost as to how he can measure the ground forces > (including possibly torque around a vertical axis)? > > I think normal force should be easy. That can be built into a pad on the > ground if nothing else, but friction would be harder. > > Unless we had multiple pads each of which had force sensors in all 3 axes > (plus a rotational sensor) does anyone know how much such an apparatus > would cost to build? > > Now that I think about 3 axis force sensors, i wonder if there's much > lateral or vertical force in the connection point and whether I'd there is > that feels bad in some natural way. > > On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 13:37 Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < > contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: > >> Funny thing, I wrote the email below last Sunday and thought, do the >> world's callers really want a physics calculation on their mailing list? I >> decided the better of it and didn't send it. Ok, I guess I was wrong... >> >> What I call support is against centrifugal force, not vertical. Of >> course, there's no need to lift the other dancer, and it's a really poor >> idea. >> >> As Jeff pointed out, in a fast swing, there's a lot of centrifugal >> force, as seen from our rotating frame of reference in the swing. For >> physics buffs, centrifugal force increases as the square of velocity, so a >> swing that goes around three times in 8 beats rather than twice (1.5x >> faster rotation, the first-level "fast swing") has 2.25 times as much >> outward force to support. Estimating a 25 cm radius (about 50 cm between >> the centers of mass of the two dancers, in the middles of their abdomens, >> which I measured with a tape measure) and a 70 kg (150 lb) dancer, that's >> an outward force for each of the two bodies of almost 390 Newtons, or >> nearly 90 pounds. Much of that will be borne by the friction between the >> dancer's feet and the floor, but the rest will be held by the supporting >> dancer(s). How much depends on how they lean. For a standard swing (2 >> rotations per 8 beats), it's just under 40 lbs. Fortunately, you only have >> to hold it for four to eight seconds at a time, or actually less as you >> accelerate and decelerate inside that time, though the peak force will then >> be higher. >> >> ...and now I add... >> >> Despite starting with it above, myself, I think we're somewhat >> misleading ourselves with this Mv**2/r calculation. >> >> The key thing here is that a centrifugal-force calculation (centripetal, >> actually) makes some assumptions that we dramatically violate when we >> dance. We are not rigid bodies. At best, we're collections of many light >> rigid bodies (our bones) linked by ligaments, tendons, and muscles, and >> bearing all sorts of other masses that move relative to one another, >> storing momentum until we can deal with it in the next step. We >> effectively pump momentum up from our feet, into our bodies, and down to >> our feet on each step. We transfer it to the other dancer through our arms >> and theirs, and their back, if we have a hand there. >> >> With that in mind, consider this model of a swing. Each dancer's upper >> half is trying to execute rigid circular motion. Our lower bodies (hips >> down) are doing something else, and half our mass is down there. So, drop >> my estimated 90 lbs to 45 just for that (I'll drop it more in a minute). >> The lower half is essentially stepping a figure with 90 or 135 degree >> corners on each beat. Consider the left foot. In a standard swing (2x in >> 8 beats), it is walking a square, directing momentum along the sides of the >> square that the upper body picks up and turns into rotation. Half of each >> square side brings that leg closer to the middle, the other half takes it >> farther away. We land, push off, and do it again and again. That push-off >> supports the centripetal needs of both legs (through the hip joint) and >> some of the upper body. If there is an outward lean off the right foot, >> additional centripetal support is needed from either the legs or arms. The >> right foot is mainly a pivot, while both feet support gravitational weight. >> >> Good dancers constantly adjust how far out their left feet land on each >> step and how hard they push off, simultaneously satisfying both their >> centripetal needs and the required spin rate. This lets them control how >> much inward force they draw from their feet into the upper-body rotation to >> supplement the arms. That reduces the support needed from the arms well >> below 45 lbs. It can reduce it to zero. Tweaking the lean also adjusts >> where the axis of rotation is, to balance the different masses of the >> dancers and make their differing force impulses produce matched torque >> impulses. Dancers use the beat to step in sync with the other dancer's >> legs, or these torque impulses would come at different times, and the swing >> would wobble and fall apart, as Chris Lacey alluded to. >> >> So, yeah, it's complicated, yet even children solve this problem when >> they swing. Everyone is an intuitive physicist! And, each time I think >> about this kind of thing, I get more amazed at the engineers who make >> robots. Has anyone taught a robot to do a contra swing, yet? >> >> --jh-- >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 3:24 PM Julian Blechner < >> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >> >>> Hi Joe, >>> >>> You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I >>> teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a >>> complaint about it. >>> >>> That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager >>> robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place." >>> >>> That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting >>> Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, >>> it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just >>> workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety >>> of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.) >>> >>> The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the >>> backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when >>> swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on >>> shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is >>> fairly petite. >>> >>> I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I have >>> an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient >>> support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar. >>> >>> That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing >>> hold works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? >>> But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what >>> you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand >>> correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.) >>> >>> In dance, >>> Julian Blechner >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington &lt;contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com&gt; >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the lark's, >>>> but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years >>>> now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on >>>> the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I >>>> know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie >>>> workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide >>>> equal support in the swing. >>>> >>>> While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are >>>> not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this >>>> without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent >>>> backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the >>>> right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much >>>> eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by >>>> pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially >>>> refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow, >>>> so it kills any enjoyment in that swing. >>>> >>>> Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major >>>> support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff >>>> described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top >>>> are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their >>>> lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold >>>> (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder. >>>> >>>> --jh-- >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner < >>>> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>>> JJ, >>>>> >>>>> I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry >>>>> of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing. >>>>> >>>>> Joe, >>>>> >>>>> I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having >>>>> elbows occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or >>>>> picture). That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall >>>>> topic, that everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums >>>>> is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold >>>>> handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned >>>>> callers - can anticipate every need or difference. >>>>> >>>>> In dance, >>>>> Julian Blechner >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ &lt;jcgj95(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the >>>>>> switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end on >>>>>> (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left >>>>>> arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is the >>>>>> "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell >>>>>> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes over >>>>>> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅. >>>>>> >>>>>> I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles >>>>>> without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the >>>>>> traditional ballroom figure. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's >>>>>>> role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember >>>>>>> initially doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I >>>>>>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I >>>>>>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the >>>>>>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were >>>>>>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jeff >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < >>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a >>>>>>>> way that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true >>>>>>>> if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to >>>>>>>> theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal >>>>>>>> contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that >>>>>>>> aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more >>>>>>>> stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's >>>>>>>> role (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a >>>>>>>> moment), we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", >>>>>>>> which is symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are >>>>>>>> around the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right >>>>>>>> arm, bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands >>>>>>>> around each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost >>>>>>>> never happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. >>>>>>>> I'm not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a >>>>>>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first >>>>>>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our >>>>>>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we >>>>>>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an >>>>>>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior >>>>>>>> change... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when >>>>>>>> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the >>>>>>>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and >>>>>>>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't >>>>>>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though >>>>>>>> it was pretty great in other ways. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom >>>>>>>> position where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the >>>>>>>> same place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually >>>>>>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible, >>>>>>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same >>>>>>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside >>>>>>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, >>>>>>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain >>>>>>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my >>>>>>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the >>>>>>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop >>>>>>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt >>>>>>>> the lark. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no >>>>>>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the >>>>>>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire >>>>>>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to >>>>>>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they >>>>>>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light >>>>>>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more >>>>>>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only >>>>>>>> pull forward. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --jh-- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra >>>>>>>> Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought >>>>>>>>> about this email thread and observations. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Short and simple: >>>>>>>>> A "barrel hold" swing: >>>>>>>>> - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold >>>>>>>>> - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, >>>>>>>>> with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we >>>>>>>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided >>>>>>>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In dance, >>>>>>>>> -Julian Blechner >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra >>>>>>>>> Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above >>>>>>>>>> the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think >>>>>>>>>> that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to >>>>>>>>>> make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s >>>>>>>>>> arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is >>>>>>>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things >>>>>>>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm >>>>>>>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if >>>>>>>>>> I were just learning this swing. >>>>>>>>>> Becky >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra >>>>>>>>>> Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at >>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - >>>>>>>>>> for spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though >>>>>>>>>> what I think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on >>>>>>>>>> is that it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your >>>>>>>>>> message: you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been >>>>>>>>>> experimenting with (visual at https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin… >>>>>>>>>> ) >>>>>>>>>> <https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0> >>>>>>>>>> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms >>>>>>>>>> that are holding just above the elbow. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with >>>>>>>>>> his left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you >>>>>>>>>> use in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her >>>>>>>>>> right hand.) >>>>>>>>>> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198 >>>>>>>>>> Starts at 3:18. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thoughts? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston - >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the >>>>>>>>>> hold, that in this video referenced by Allan - >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 <https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in the photo I shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's arm? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of the two dancing partners? >>>>>>>>>> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm still be above the Lark's? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks all! >>>>>>>>>> Kat K in Halifax >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers >>>>>>>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; >>>>>>>>>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM >>>>>>>>>> Hi Kat, >>>>>>>>>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. >>>>>>>>>> When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a >>>>>>>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than >>>>>>>>>> further apart. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty >>>>>>>>>> Contras and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a >>>>>>>>>> contra dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that >>>>>>>>>> it really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be >>>>>>>>>> enough connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. >>>>>>>>>> I felt that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt >>>>>>>>>> that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was >>>>>>>>>> just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest >>>>>>>>>> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! >>>>>>>>>> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own >>>>>>>>>> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and >>>>>>>>>> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on >>>>>>>>>> the spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance >>>>>>>>>> and weight. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much >>>>>>>>>> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, >>>>>>>>>> and then lots of Aerials: >>>>>>>>>> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I >>>>>>>>>> shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford >>>>>>>>>> to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at high >>>>>>>>>> speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I just slow >>>>>>>>>> the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take their own >>>>>>>>>> weight or fall over. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you >>>>>>>>>> will find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem >>>>>>>>>> to do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some >>>>>>>>>> getting used to. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a >>>>>>>>>> Ceilidh Swing ( >>>>>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you >>>>>>>>>> could always try the Forearm Swing instead ( >>>>>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same >>>>>>>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Happy dancing, >>>>>>>>>> John >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 >>>>>>>>>> & 07802 940 574 >>>>>>>>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers >>>>>>>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; >>>>>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM >>>>>>>>>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies >>>>>>>>>> and lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a >>>>>>>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with >>>>>>>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY >>>>>>>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance. >>>>>>>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying >>>>>>>>>> yes to one person. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our >>>>>>>>>> group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra >>>>>>>>>> dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most >>>>>>>>>> important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which >>>>>>>>>> we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would >>>>>>>>>> not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s >>>>>>>>>> always been women who have said this to me over the years), when they come >>>>>>>>>> to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is >>>>>>>>>> asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes >>>>>>>>>> at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make >>>>>>>>>> contra feel safer, especially for new dancers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the >>>>>>>>>> difference. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Becky >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner >>>>>>>>>> &lt;juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; &lt;juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a >>>>>>>>>> ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>>>>>>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; >>>>>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM >>>>>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a >>>>>>>>>> ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in >>>>>>>>>> our minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, >>>>>>>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to >>>>>>>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - >>>>>>>>>> though I wouldn't say the default) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is it something else? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a >>>>>>>>>> solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In dance, >>>>>>>>>> Julian Blechner >>>>>>>>>> He/him >>>>>>>>>> Western Mass >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> >

Does anyone have any thoughts about how we can measure some of this? I can definitely imagine a force pad on someone's back to measure the tension, but I'm a bit lost as to how he can measure the ground forces (including possibly torque around a vertical axis)? I think normal force should be easy. That can be built into a pad on the ground if nothing else, but friction would be harder. Unless we had multiple pads each of which had force sensors in all 3 axes (plus a rotational sensor) does anyone know how much such an apparatus would cost to build? Now that I think about 3 axis force sensors, i wonder if there's much lateral or vertical force in the connection point and whether I'd there is that feels bad in some natural way. On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 13:37 Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote:

Hi Joe, You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a complaint about it. That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place." That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.) The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is fairly petite. I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I have an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar. That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing hold works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.) In dance, Julian Blechner On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington &lt;contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the lark's, but > an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years now, > where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on the > lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I know > at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie > workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide > equal support in the swing. > > While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are not > grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this > without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent > backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the > right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much > eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by > pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially > refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow, > so it kills any enjoyment in that swing. > > Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major > support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff > described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top > are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their > lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold > (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder. > > --jh-- > > > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner < > juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > >> JJ, >> >> I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry of >> a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing. >> >> Joe, >> >> I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having elbows >> occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture). >> That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that >> everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our goal >> for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as >> such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers - >> can anticipate every need or difference. >> >> In dance, >> Julian Blechner >> >> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ &lt;jcgj95(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >> >>> Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the >>> switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end on >>> (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left >>> arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is the >>> "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell >>> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes over >>> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅. >>> >>> I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles >>> without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the >>> traditional ballroom figure. >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>> >>>> "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role >>>> actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm." >>>> >>>> When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially >>>> doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I >>>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I >>>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the >>>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were >>>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way? >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < >>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>>> I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way >>>>> that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I >>>>> have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs >>>>> (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if >>>>> one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if >>>>> you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than >>>>> ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one. >>>>> >>>>> In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role >>>>> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), >>>>> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is >>>>> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around >>>>> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm, >>>>> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around >>>>> each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never >>>>> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm >>>>> not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a >>>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first >>>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our >>>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we >>>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an >>>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior >>>>> change... >>>>> >>>>> In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when >>>>> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the >>>>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and >>>>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't >>>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though >>>>> it was pretty great in other ways. >>>>> >>>>> The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position >>>>> where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same >>>>> place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually >>>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible, >>>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same >>>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside >>>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, >>>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain >>>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my >>>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the >>>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop >>>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt >>>>> the lark. >>>>> >>>>> One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no >>>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the >>>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire >>>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to >>>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they >>>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light >>>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more >>>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only >>>>> pull forward. >>>>> >>>>> --jh-- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about >>>>>> this email thread and observations. >>>>>> >>>>>> Short and simple: >>>>>> A "barrel hold" swing: >>>>>> - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold >>>>>> - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, >>>>>> with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we >>>>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided >>>>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer. >>>>>> >>>>>> In dance, >>>>>> -Julian Blechner >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers < >>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above >>>>>>> the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think >>>>>>> that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to >>>>>>> make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s >>>>>>> arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is >>>>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things >>>>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm >>>>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if >>>>>>> I were just learning this swing. >>>>>>> Becky >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers >>>>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - >>>>>>> for spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though >>>>>>> what I think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on >>>>>>> is that it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: >>>>>>> you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting >>>>>>> with (visual at https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin… >>>>>>> ) >>>>>>> <https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0> >>>>>>> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that >>>>>>> are holding just above the elbow. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his >>>>>>> left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use >>>>>>> in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right >>>>>>> hand.) >>>>>>> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198 >>>>>>> Starts at 3:18. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thoughts? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the >>>>>>> hold, that in this video referenced by Allan - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 <https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in the photo I shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's arm? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of the two dancing partners? >>>>>>> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm still be above the Lark's? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks all! >>>>>>> Kat K in Halifax >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers >>>>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; >>>>>>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM >>>>>>> Hi Kat, >>>>>>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. >>>>>>> When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a >>>>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than >>>>>>> further apart. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras >>>>>>> and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra >>>>>>> dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it >>>>>>> really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough >>>>>>> connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt >>>>>>> that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it >>>>>>> was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just >>>>>>> awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest >>>>>>> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! >>>>>>> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own >>>>>>> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and >>>>>>> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the >>>>>>> spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and >>>>>>> weight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much >>>>>>> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, >>>>>>> and then lots of Aerials: >>>>>>> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I >>>>>>> shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford >>>>>>> to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at high >>>>>>> speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I just slow >>>>>>> the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take their own >>>>>>> weight or fall over. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will >>>>>>> find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to >>>>>>> do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some >>>>>>> getting used to. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh >>>>>>> Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - >>>>>>> you could always try the Forearm Swing instead ( >>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same >>>>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Happy dancing, >>>>>>> John >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & >>>>>>> 07802 940 574 >>>>>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers >>>>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; >>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM >>>>>>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and >>>>>>> lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a >>>>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with >>>>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY >>>>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance. >>>>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying >>>>>>> yes to one person. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our >>>>>>> group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra >>>>>>> dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most >>>>>>> important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which >>>>>>> we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would >>>>>>> not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s >>>>>>> always been women who have said this to me over the years), when they come >>>>>>> to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is >>>>>>> asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes >>>>>>> at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make >>>>>>> contra feel safer, especially for new dancers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the >>>>>>> difference. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Becky >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner >>>>>>> &lt;juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; &lt;juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom >>>>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>>>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; >>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM >>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom >>>>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our >>>>>>> minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, >>>>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to >>>>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - >>>>>>> though I wouldn't say the default) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it something else? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution >>>>>>> to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In dance, >>>>>>> Julian Blechner >>>>>>> He/him >>>>>>> Western Mass >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> >>>

I had poked around with the math as well, but struggled with all of the estimates. I'm happy to see Jeff taking a stab at this and discussing. I think likely some of that force is taken by core muscles, and transferred to the feet against floor, and such. This would be a really cool practical kinesthetics research paper! Julian On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 1:28 PM Jeff Kaufman &lt;jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Hi Chris, Thanks!  Note that it's a bit more complicated than where the center of mass is: you need the moment of inertia.  For example, imagine comparing (a) a point mass at r=1ft and (b) the same mass divided into two bits at r=2ft and r=0ft.  The center of mass in case (b) still rotates with r=1ft but the cases aren't equivalent: you need 2x the force in case (b). [1] But you may well be right that the effective radius is under 1ft! Jeff [1] Doing the math: F_a = m (ω2πr)^2 / r = m * r * (ω2π)^2 F_b = m/2 (ω2π(2r))^2 / (2r) + 0 = m * r * 2 * (ω2π)^2 F_a = 1/2 * F_b On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 1:18 PM Chris Lahey &lt;clahey(a)clahey.net&gt; wrote: I addressed this in my other email, but this is a good example. In this case my back is providing 100lbf to your hands. I also can't imagine being in this position and having centers of mass two feet apart, but I would want to measure it before making this an argument, hence going with your numbers. On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 13:15 Jeff Kaufman &lt;jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Hi Chris, Thanks for reviewing the calculation! Imagine that I hold you around your back with both hands, and you put your hands up in the air and enjoy the ride.  While I don't think we could get anywhere near 4.5x around in 12 beats if you did that, do you agree that where my hands meet your back I'd need to provide both enough force for our combined weight? (I'm not claiming each person needs to provide ~200lb, but that this total force must be covered by the couple somehow) Jeff On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:56 PM Chris Lahey &lt;clahey(a)clahey.net&gt; wrote: I think you're trying to calculate two 150lb dancers, but you've calculated for a 300lb mass, but you shouldn't do that doubling. I'm exerting enough force to provide your centripetal force and vice versa. Those forces oppose one another, but they don't add up. That is a factor of two error. I have to think more about one foot radius and 45 rpm and read upthread more. On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 12:25 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: I was curious about John's "The shoulder-blade connection is purely to counteract centrifugal force.  That is not normally a lot of force, so it shouldn’t make you tired." above. While ideally you could measure this, I don't think swinging with a scale between your hand and partner's back and your hand would be comfortable, and it would be hard to read.  Let's try a bit of physics. If you like to swing quickly you might go 4.5x around in twelve beats, which is 45rpm at a tempo of 120bpm. Let's guess the people each weigh 150lb and approximate them as point masses two feet apart. Doing some math: r = 1ft m = 300lb ω = 45rpm = 0.75 hz v = ω2πr   = 0.75 hz * 2π * 1ft   = 4.7 ft/s F = mv^2/r   = 300lbm * (4.7 ft/s)^2 / 1ft   = 300lbm * 23ft / s^2   = 6662lbm * ft / s^2 1lbf = 32.17 lbm * ft / s^2 1lbm = 0.0311 lbf * s^2 / ft F = 6662 lbm * ft / s^2   = 6662 * 0.0311 lbf   = 207lbf This says you need ~216lb of force to hold the dancers together! If you're rotating more slowly, perhaps 2.5x in twelve beats, it's still a significant 64lb. Jeff PS: If you want something you can play with, this is (rpm/3 * 3.14)**2 * weight * 1/32.2 On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:08 PM Jeff Kaufman &lt;jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Here's a 1989 recording the Portland OR dance did in a recording studio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k .  I see almost all "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold (hereafter 'ballroom' though as illustrated above that's a fraught term).  At 0:58 and then again at 1:28, 1:58, 3:02 etc there's a couple with a symmetrical hold where they each have their right hand around the other's waist, with their left hands joined low in the center.  I didn't watch the whole video, so it's possible there were other couples that did other holds at some point? Here's 1987 in Mendocino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q .  I only see ballroom holds. Here's 1986 in Cambridge MA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q . Outdoor demo performance. Almost all ballroom holds, but at 4:04 the couple all the way on the right has outer hands in a forearm hold (which they continue doing in later iterations of the dance). Here's 1986 in Francestown NH: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE At 0:30 I see two ballroom holds and two where the outer arms are holding a bit above the elbows. At 1:06 I see two ballroom holds, one of the hold from 0:30, and one of the symmetrical holds I described in the Portland OR video, though note that this is many of the same couples.  Jumping ahead to 8:38 I see three ballroom holds and where the outer hands hold each other's forearms. Separately, I really like how enthusiastic the balances are: you can feel the room shake through to the camera! Here's one labeled 1986 Chico Contra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg Almost all ballroom holds, except for one couple where the lady's left hand is on the back of the gent's right arm instead of behind his shoulder (doesn't look comfortable to me!) Here's 1976 in Bloomington: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w .  Looks like a performance.  At 0:10 I see three couples where the outer hands are joined as in ballroom, the gent's right hand is around the lady's waist, and the lady's left hand is again on the back of the gent's right arm. Then there's one couple doing the symmetrical swing with left hands joined low between their bodies. Same again at 0:44, 1:11, etc. Here's 1967 somewhere in New England: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM .  I see ballroom at 0:35, 0:37, 3:15, 3:16, 5:08, 5:10.  Then at 1:05 (and then again in the background at 5:11, and then again at 5:23 and 5:33) I see a forearm hold with arms that are straighter than I'm used to.  At 2:08 I see a hold where the gents hands are both around the lady's waist and the lady's hands are both over the tops of the gent's shoulders. Here's 1981 in Belmont MA, but it's an hour and I'm going to bed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo Jeff On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 4:33 PM Stein, Robert &lt;steinr(a)msu.edu&gt; wrote: The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same variety of swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel holds. Bob via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: what swing positions were common sounds like fun!  I think video might be more promising?  Here's a few annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and each bullet describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame at the timestamp.  I only counted each couple once: https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC gent's right hand behind lady's back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm gent's right hand behind lady's back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder lady's left hand on gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back way out, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back hands on backs with lady above gent low, gent's inner hand on lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder held out, gent's inner hand on lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm shoulders, gent's left hand behind lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back gent's right hand behind lady's back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder gent's right hand behind lady's back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder right hand behind lady's back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I think of as the standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of variation. 1975 clip, but there were too many cuts.  The 1964 video would be another one to try? Blechner via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: there's always regional differences (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really about?) please assume a friendly tone and desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's intended. milestone books marking approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings. contemporaries and the books published a year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different swing holds, where: waist on the small of the back (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the cover which he points out in the description is what to follow) ballroom palm-up supporting the lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper arm (Jennings, with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a lady's hands top of the upper arm (Jennings) or "behind the upper arm" (Sanella) agreed traditional swing position, and holds described by both did include women holding men in ways that were supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that their hand is "resting on top" as with other couples' dances. I'll circle back around to that after I touch on some specific points: press back against the Leftie’s supporting right hand." "leaning back" may be describing "the feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely experienced people who lean back. forces the swing together because you are limited to the length of the shorter arm." thread. The shoulderblade isn't small, and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size differences. There's always exceptions, sure. we're not doing shoulderblades. Then again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's less support that's needed to be given. middle of my back means you’re going to be on top of me." swing hold is not in the "middle" of the back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in the middle is partially off the shoulderblade. as the curve of the hand often can naturally curve around the shoulderblade. height/arm length then the arms are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward." But I think everyone on this list here has been dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't a thing I've really experienced or heard discussed. be possible, but people just ... do it? comes into a swing from a bit of an under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm comes in more open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their right arm before I try and wrap my right arm around. leading into a good connection on a star promenade. the traditional "woman left arm rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged, anyway. have done that extra bit of work in the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, and timing their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed. give, Neal, may not work as wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women. Robin/Righthand role. Robin/Righthand role. Lark/Lefthand role. Lark/Lefthand role. women. arms to "make a swing work for both people" as a universal and generic skill. actually more automatic than it may seem! technical and kinesthetic aspects of contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium that works for both people. hand flat on my shoulderblade, that's fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing speed. skilled contra dancer can adjust their style to meet another dancer's differences in size, height, ability, tiredness, injury, age, etc. Schlein &lt;nschlein(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: their palm flat on the other persons back, I agree with Joe. things. because you are limited to the length of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK with that.  With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space.   (Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants their hand on my back.) height/arm length then the arms are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and potentially harmful. Blechner via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: shoulderblades? If so, it's how I teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a complaint about it. elbow bent backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place." clamping". While yes, putting Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.) don't have hands flat on the backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is fairly petite. seriously fatigued and sore if I have an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar. yours works where the swing hold works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.) Harrington &lt;contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: robin's arm on top of the lark's, but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back.  I know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide equal support in the swing. can hurt. If the dancers are not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place.  Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially refusing the position.  I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow, so it kills any enjoyment in that swing. a robin wants to give major support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top are much better opportunities.  A robin whose arm is longer than their lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold (robin's arm on top) to add support.  Just don't push down on the shoulder. Blechner &lt;juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: code-switching that the asymmetry of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing. the ballroom hold having elbows occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture). That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers - can anticipate every need or difference. &lt;jcgj95(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: swing helps me to "flip the switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end on (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes over and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅. planning on switching roles without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the traditional ballroom figure. via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady.  I'm not sure when that became the norm." around 2005, I remember initially doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I encountered.  I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the standard ballroom hold.  By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were dancing the lady's role in the standard way? Harrington via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: partners have reacted in a way that indicated it was too intimate for them.  This is especially true if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs (I'm pretty tall).  It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side.  But, all that aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one. guys danced the lady's role (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm, bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around each other's forearms between your bodies.  At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady.  I'm not sure when that became the norm.  I would occasionally do it with a particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with.  We practiced it first and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our neighbors.  We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an item.  Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior change... with guys in either role when they're happy to swing with me.  But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though it was pretty great in other ways. a modified ballroom position where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same place where the lark's hand is on theirs.  I know some people actually teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing.  It's terrible, because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same space, which, well, physics.  If I'm the lark and their arm is outside mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the traditional ballroom hold.  I hope we can convince everyone to stop teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt the lark. position and requires no communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to provide some support on the shoulder blade.  In my case, at least, if they are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only pull forward. Blechner via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: few days, I thought about this email thread and observations. space than a ballroom hold really clearly, as a lark, with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer. becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: always HAVE to go above the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if I were just learning this swing. Kitching via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: I like this swing at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance!  Though what I think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful. when I read your message:  you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting with (visual at https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin… <https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0> ) insufficient, for the arms that are holding just above the elbow. my partner are doing with his left hand my right hand ,  is supposed to be the same as the hold you use in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right hand.) it is what I intended: https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198 <https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> >> Starts at 3:18. >> Thoughts? >> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston - >> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold, that in this video referenced by Allan - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 or in the photo I shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's arm? >> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of the two dancing partners? 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm still be above the Lark's? >> Thanks all! >> Kat K in Halifax >>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers >>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM >>> Hi Kat, >>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than further apart. from the cover of Zesty Contras and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it! Swing and didn't feel that it really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one. arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and that it not a lot inless you spin really fast. getting the dancers to Buzz on the spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and weight. shoulders (too much Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and then lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take their own weight or fall over. keep their own weight you will find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist. feet interleaved. They seem to do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some getting used to. being too close in a Ceilidh Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you could always try the Forearm Swing instead (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same principle, but further apart so no bodily contact. john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 Dancing in Kent _______________________________________________ contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net the proximity of bodies and lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance. That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying yes to one person. lecherous dancer in our group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra feel safer, especially for new dancers. used both feel about the difference. Blechner &lt;juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: articulation on why a ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? _______________________________________________ contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net articulation on why a ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? social attachment we have in our minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture? ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - though I wouldn't say the default) give insight to what a solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail? >>> >>> In dance, >>> Julian Blechner >>> He/him >>> Western Mass >>> _______________________________________________ contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list --contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email tocontracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

I addressed this in my other email, but this is a good example. In this case my back is providing 100lbf to your hands. I also can't imagine being in this position and having centers of mass two feet apart, but I would want to measure it before making this an argument, hence going with your numbers. On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 13:15 Jeff Kaufman &lt;jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Hi Chris, > > Thanks for reviewing the calculation! Imagine that I hold you around > your back with both hands, and you put your hands up in the air and enjoy > the ride. While I don't think we could get anywhere near 4.5x around in 12 > beats if you did that, do you agree that where my hands meet your back I'd > need to provide both enough force for our combined weight? > > (I'm not claiming each person needs to provide ~200lb, but that this > total force must be covered by the couple somehow) > > Jeff > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:56 PM Chris Lahey &lt;clahey(a)clahey.net&gt; wrote: > >> I think you're trying to calculate two 150lb dancers, but you've >> calculated for a 300lb mass, but you shouldn't do that doubling. I'm >> exerting enough force to provide your centripetal force and vice versa. >> Those forces oppose one another, but they don't add up. That is a factor of >> two error. >> >> I have to think more about one foot radius and 45 rpm and read upthread >> more. >> >> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 12:25 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >> >>> I was curious about John's "The shoulder-blade connection is purely to >>> counteract centrifugal force. That is not normally a lot of force, so it >>> shouldn’t make you tired." above. While ideally you could measure this, I >>> don't think swinging with a scale between your hand and partner's back and >>> your hand would be comfortable, and it would be hard to read. Let's try a >>> bit of physics. >>> >>> If you like to swing quickly you might go 4.5x around in twelve beats, >>> which is 45rpm at a tempo of 120bpm. Let's guess the people each weigh >>> 150lb and approximate them as point masses two feet apart. Doing some math: >>> >>> r = 1ft >>> m = 300lb >>> ω = 45rpm = 0.75 hz >>> >>> v = ω2πr >>> = 0.75 hz * 2π * 1ft >>> = 4.7 ft/s >>> >>> F = mv^2/r >>> = 300lbm * (4.7 ft/s)^2 / 1ft >>> = 300lbm * 23ft / s^2 >>> = 6662lbm * ft / s^2 >>> >>> 1lbf = 32.17 lbm * ft / s^2 >>> 1lbm = 0.0311 lbf * s^2 / ft >>> >>> F = 6662 lbm * ft / s^2 >>> = 6662 * 0.0311 lbf >>> = 207lbf >>> >>> This says you need ~216lb of force to hold the dancers together! If >>> you're rotating more slowly, perhaps 2.5x in twelve beats, it's still a >>> significant 64lb. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> PS: If you want something you can play with, this is (rpm/3 * 3.14)**2 >>> * weight * 1/32.2 >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:08 PM Jeff Kaufman &lt;jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com&gt; >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Here's a 1989 recording the Portland OR dance did in a recording >>>> studio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k . I see almost >>>> all "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, >>>> lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold (hereafter 'ballroom' though >>>> as illustrated above that's a fraught term). At 0:58 and then again at >>>> 1:28, 1:58, 3:02 etc there's a couple with a symmetrical hold where they >>>> each have their right hand around the other's waist, with their left hands >>>> joined low in the center. I didn't watch the whole video, so it's possible >>>> there were other couples that did other holds at some point? >>>> >>>> Here's 1987 in Mendocino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q >>>> . I only see ballroom holds. >>>> >>>> Here's 1986 in Cambridge MA: >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q . Outdoor demo >>>> performance. Almost all ballroom holds, but at 4:04 the couple all the way >>>> on the right has outer hands in a forearm hold (which they continue doing >>>> in later iterations of the dance). >>>> >>>> Here's 1986 in Francestown NH: >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE At 0:30 I see two >>>> ballroom holds and two where the outer arms are holding a bit above the >>>> elbows. At 1:06 I see two ballroom holds, one of the hold from 0:30, and >>>> one of the symmetrical holds I described in the Portland OR video, though >>>> note that this is many of the same couples. Jumping ahead to 8:38 I see >>>> three ballroom holds and where the outer hands hold each other's forearms. >>>> Separately, I really like how enthusiastic the balances are: you can feel >>>> the room shake through to the camera! >>>> >>>> Here's one labeled 1986 Chico Contra: >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg Almost all ballroom >>>> holds, except for one couple where the lady's left hand is on the back of >>>> the gent's right arm instead of behind his shoulder (doesn't look >>>> comfortable to me!) >>>> >>>> Here's 1976 in Bloomington: >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w . Looks like a >>>> performance. At 0:10 I see three couples where the outer hands are joined >>>> as in ballroom, the gent's right hand is around the lady's waist, and the >>>> lady's left hand is again on the back of the gent's right arm. Then >>>> there's one couple doing the symmetrical swing with left hands joined low >>>> between their bodies. Same again at 0:44, 1:11, etc. >>>> >>>> Here's 1967 somewhere in New England: >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM . I see ballroom at >>>> 0:35, 0:37, 3:15, 3:16, 5:08, 5:10. Then at 1:05 (and then again in the >>>> background at 5:11, and then again at 5:23 and 5:33) I see a forearm hold >>>> with arms that are straighter than I'm used to. At 2:08 I see a hold where >>>> the gents hands are both around the lady's waist and the lady's hands are >>>> both over the tops of the gent's shoulders. >>>> >>>> Here's 1981 in Belmont MA, but it's an hour and I'm going to bed: >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 4:33 PM Stein, Robert &lt;steinr(a)msu.edu&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>>> The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same variety >>>>> of swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel holds. >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>> > On Mar 26, 2024, at 16:13, Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Looking through old media to figure out what swing positions were >>>>> common sounds like fun! I think video might be more promising? Here's a >>>>> few annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and each >>>>> bullet describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame at the >>>>> timestamp. I only counted each couple once: >>>>> > >>>>> > Cambridge MA, 1990: >>>>> https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC >>>>> > * 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms, gent's right hand behind >>>>> lady's back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm >>>>> > * 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder >>>>> > * 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's left hand on gent's >>>>> shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back >>>>> > * 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out, lady's left hand >>>>> behind gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back >>>>> > * 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on backs with lady >>>>> above gent >>>>> > * 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's inner hand on >>>>> lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder >>>>> > * 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out, gent's inner hand >>>>> on lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm >>>>> > * 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's shoulders, gent's left hand >>>>> behind lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back >>>>> > * 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder >>>>> > * 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder >>>>> > >>>>> > The "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I think of as >>>>> the standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of >>>>> variation. >>>>> > >>>>> > I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975 clip, but there were too >>>>> many cuts. The 1964 video would be another one to try? >>>>> > >>>>> > Jeff >>>>> > >>>>> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> > Responding to various points. >>>>> > And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always regional >>>>> differences (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really >>>>> about?) >>>>> > I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a friendly >>>>> tone and desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's intended. >>>>> > >>>>> > I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking >>>>> approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and >>>>> Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings. >>>>> > The short version: despite being contemporaries and the books >>>>> published a year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different >>>>> swing holds, where: >>>>> > - a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the small of the >>>>> back (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the >>>>> cover which he points out in the description is what to follow) >>>>> > - a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom palm-up >>>>> supporting the lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper >>>>> arm (Jennings, with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a lady's >>>>> hands >>>>> > - a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper arm >>>>> (Jennings) or "behind the upper arm" (Sanella) >>>>> > >>>>> > So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing >>>>> position, and holds described by both did include women holding men in ways >>>>> that were supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that their >>>>> hand is "resting on top" as with other couples' dances. >>>>> > Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back around to >>>>> that after I touch on some specific points: >>>>> > >>>>> > RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against the >>>>> Leftie’s supporting right hand." >>>>> > Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back" may be describing >>>>> "the feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely experienced >>>>> people who lean back. >>>>> > >>>>> > RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing together >>>>> because you are limited to the length of the shorter arm." >>>>> > I don't think this is accurate. >>>>> > This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade isn't >>>>> small, and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size >>>>> differences. There's always exceptions, sure. >>>>> > Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing shoulderblades. >>>>> Then again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's less >>>>> support that's needed to be given. >>>>> > >>>>> > RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re >>>>> going to be on top of me." >>>>> > I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in the >>>>> "middle" of the back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in >>>>> the middle is partially off the shoulderblade. >>>>> > I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the hand >>>>> often can naturally curve around the shoulderblade. >>>>> > >>>>> > RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then the >>>>> arms are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting >>>>> in collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward." >>>>> > I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think everyone on >>>>> this list here has been dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't a >>>>> thing I've really experienced or heard discussed. >>>>> > So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but people just >>>>> ... do it? >>>>> > As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing from a bit >>>>> of an under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm comes >>>>> in more open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their right >>>>> arm before I try and wrap my right arm around. >>>>> > It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a good connection >>>>> on a star promenade. >>>>> > >>>>> > Further to this point, if I were using the traditional "woman left >>>>> arm rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged, >>>>> anyway. >>>>> > Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra bit of >>>>> work in the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, and >>>>> timing their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed. >>>>> > >>>>> > This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work as >>>>> wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women. >>>>> > Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role. >>>>> > Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role. >>>>> > Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role. >>>>> > Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role. >>>>> > Some men dance with men, some women with women. >>>>> > Etc. >>>>> > >>>>> > So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a swing work >>>>> for both people" as a universal and generic skill. >>>>> > Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more automatic than it >>>>> may seem! >>>>> > >>>>> > Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic aspects >>>>> of contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to >>>>> adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium >>>>> that works for both people. >>>>> > If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my shoulderblade, >>>>> that's fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing speed. >>>>> > I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer can >>>>> adjust their style to meet another dancer's differences in size, height, >>>>> ability, tiredness, injury, age, etc. >>>>> > >>>>> > In dance, >>>>> > Julian Blechner >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein &lt;nschlein(a)gmail.com&gt; >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > Hi Julian, >>>>> > Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other >>>>> persons back, I agree with Joe. >>>>> > >>>>> > The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things. >>>>> > >>>>> > First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the >>>>> length of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long >>>>> arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on >>>>> top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK >>>>> with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space. >>>>> (Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants >>>>> their hand on my back.) >>>>> > >>>>> > Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms >>>>> are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in >>>>> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a >>>>> changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening >>>>> of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby >>>>> pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts >>>>> the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a >>>>> non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and >>>>> potentially harmful. >>>>> > >>>>> > Neal Schlein >>>>> > Librarian, MSLIS >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> > Hi Joe, >>>>> > >>>>> > You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how >>>>> I teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a >>>>> complaint about it. >>>>> > >>>>> > That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager >>>>> robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place." >>>>> > >>>>> > That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting >>>>> Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, >>>>> it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just >>>>> workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety >>>>> of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.) >>>>> > >>>>> > The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on >>>>> the backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when >>>>> swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on >>>>> shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is >>>>> fairly petite. >>>>> > >>>>> > I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I >>>>> have an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient >>>>> support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar. >>>>> > >>>>> > That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing >>>>> hold works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? >>>>> But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what >>>>> you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand >>>>> correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.) >>>>> > >>>>> > In dance, >>>>> > Julian Blechner >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington < >>>>> contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>> > Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the >>>>> lark's, but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of >>>>> years now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same >>>>> location on the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's >>>>> back. I know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their >>>>> newbie workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to >>>>> provide equal support in the swing. >>>>> > >>>>> > While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers >>>>> are not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do >>>>> this without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent >>>>> backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the >>>>> right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much >>>>> eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by >>>>> pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially >>>>> refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow, >>>>> so it kills any enjoyment in that swing. >>>>> > >>>>> > Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major >>>>> support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff >>>>> described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top >>>>> are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their >>>>> lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold >>>>> (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder. >>>>> > >>>>> > --jh-- >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner < >>>>> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>> > JJ, >>>>> > >>>>> > I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the >>>>> asymmetry of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing. >>>>> > >>>>> > Joe, >>>>> > >>>>> > I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having >>>>> elbows occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or >>>>> picture). That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall >>>>> topic, that everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums >>>>> is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold >>>>> handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned >>>>> callers - can anticipate every need or difference. >>>>> > >>>>> > In dance, >>>>> > Julian Blechner >>>>> > >>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ &lt;jcgj95(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>> > Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip >>>>> the switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end >>>>> on (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my >>>>> left arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is >>>>> the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell >>>>> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes over >>>>> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅. >>>>> > >>>>> > I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching >>>>> roles without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the >>>>> traditional ballroom figure. >>>>> > >>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> > "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's >>>>> role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm." >>>>> > >>>>> > When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember >>>>> initially doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I >>>>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I >>>>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the >>>>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were >>>>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way? >>>>> > >>>>> > Jeff >>>>> > >>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> > I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a >>>>> way that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true >>>>> if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to >>>>> theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal >>>>> contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that >>>>> aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more >>>>> stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one. >>>>> > >>>>> > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role >>>>> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), >>>>> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is >>>>> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around >>>>> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm, >>>>> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around >>>>> each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never >>>>> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm >>>>> not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a >>>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first >>>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our >>>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we >>>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an >>>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior >>>>> change... >>>>> > >>>>> > In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when >>>>> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the >>>>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and >>>>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't >>>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though >>>>> it was pretty great in other ways. >>>>> > >>>>> > The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom >>>>> position where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the >>>>> same place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually >>>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible, >>>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same >>>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside >>>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, >>>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain >>>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my >>>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the >>>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop >>>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt >>>>> the lark. >>>>> > >>>>> > One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no >>>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the >>>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire >>>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to >>>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they >>>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light >>>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more >>>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only >>>>> pull forward. >>>>> > >>>>> > --jh-- >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> > At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about >>>>> this email thread and observations. >>>>> > >>>>> > Short and simple: >>>>> > A "barrel hold" swing: >>>>> > - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold >>>>> > - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, >>>>> with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we >>>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided >>>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer. >>>>> > >>>>> > In dance, >>>>> > -Julian Blechner >>>>> > >>>>> > On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers < >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> > I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above >>>>> the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think >>>>> that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to >>>>> make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s >>>>> arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is >>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things >>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm >>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if >>>>> I were just learning this swing. >>>>> > Becky >>>>> > >>>>> >> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra >>>>> Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for >>>>> spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I >>>>> think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that >>>>> it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: >>>>> you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting >>>>> with (visual at >>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin… >>>>> ) >>>>> >> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that >>>>> are holding just above the elbow. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with >>>>> his left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you >>>>> use in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her >>>>> right hand.) >>>>> >> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended: >>>>> >> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198 >>>>> >> Starts at 3:18. >>>>> >> Thoughts? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston - >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the >>>>> hold, that in this video referenced by Allan - >>>>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 or in the photo I >>>>> shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the >>>>> Lark's arm? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative >>>>> height of the two dancing partners? >>>>> >> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the >>>>> Robin's arm still be above the Lark's? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Thanks all! >>>>> >> Kat K in Halifax >>>>> >>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers >>>>> >>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM >>>>> >>> Hi Kat, >>>>> >>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. >>>>> When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a >>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than >>>>> further apart. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty >>>>> Contras and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a >>>>> contra dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it! >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that >>>>> it really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be >>>>> enough connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. >>>>> I felt that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt >>>>> that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was >>>>> just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest >>>>> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! >>>>> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own >>>>> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and >>>>> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on >>>>> the spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance >>>>> and weight. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much >>>>> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, >>>>> and then lots of Aerials: >>>>> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I shouldn't >>>>> have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford to let >>>>> people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at high speeds >>>>> with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I just slow the >>>>> Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take their own >>>>> weight or fall over. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will >>>>> find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem >>>>> to do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some >>>>> getting used to. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a >>>>> Ceilidh Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh >>>>> ) - you could always try the Forearm Swing instead ( >>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same >>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Happy dancing, >>>>> >>> John >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 >>>>> & 07802 940 574 >>>>> >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers >>>>> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM >>>>> >>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies >>>>> and lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a >>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with >>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY >>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance. >>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying >>>>> yes to one person. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our >>>>> group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra >>>>> dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most >>>>> important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which >>>>> we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would >>>>> not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s >>>>> always been women who have said this to me over the years), when they come >>>>> to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is >>>>> asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes >>>>> at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make >>>>> contra feel safer, especially for new dancers. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the >>>>> difference. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Becky >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner < >>>>> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom >>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>>>> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM >>>>> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom >>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our >>>>> minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, >>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to >>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - >>>>> though I wouldn't say the default) >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Is it something else? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a >>>>> solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> In dance, >>>>> >>> Julian Blechner >>>>> >>> He/him >>>>> >>> Western Mass >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> >>

I think you're trying to calculate two 150lb dancers, but you've calculated for a 300lb mass, but you shouldn't do that doubling. I'm exerting enough force to provide your centripetal force and vice versa. Those forces oppose one another, but they don't add up. That is a factor of two error. I have to think more about one foot radius and 45 rpm and read upthread more. On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 12:25 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote:

On Mar 27, 2024, at 12:24 PM, Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: I was curious about John's "The shoulder-blade connection is purely to counteract centrifugal force. That is not normally a lot of force, so it shouldn’t make you tired." above. While ideally you could measure this, I don't think swinging with a scale between your hand and partner's back and your hand would be comfortable, and it would be hard to read. Let's try a bit of physics. If you like to swing quickly you might go 4.5x around in twelve beats, which is 45rpm at a tempo of 120bpm. Let's guess the people each weigh 150lb and approximate them as point masses two feet apart. Doing some math: r = 1ft m = 300lb ω = 45rpm = 0.75 hz v = ω2πr = 0.75 hz * 2π * 1ft = 4.7 ft/s F = mv^2/r = 300lbm * (4.7 ft/s)^2 / 1ft = 300lbm * 23ft / s^2 = 6662lbm * ft / s^2 1lbf = 32.17 lbm * ft / s^2 1lbm = 0.0311 lbf * s^2 / ft F = 6662 lbm * ft / s^2 = 6662 * 0.0311 lbf = 207lbf This says you need ~216lb of force to hold the dancers together! If you're rotating more slowly, perhaps 2.5x in twelve beats, it's still a significant 64lb. Jeff PS: If you want something you can play with, this is (rpm/3 * 3.14)**2 * weight * 1/32.2 On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:08 PM Jeff Kaufman &lt;jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com <mailto:jeff.t.kaufman@gmail.com>> wrote: Here's a 1989 recording the Portland OR dance did in a recording studio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k> . I see almost all "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold (hereafter 'ballroom' though as illustrated above that's a fraught term). At 0:58 and then again at 1:28, 1:58, 3:02 etc there's a couple with a symmetrical hold where they each have their right hand around the other's waist, with their left hands joined low in the center. I didn't watch the whole video, so it's possible there were other couples that did other holds at some point? Here's 1987 in Mendocino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q> . I only see ballroom holds. Here's 1986 in Cambridge MA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q> . Outdoor demo performance. Almost all ballroom holds, but at 4:04 the couple all the way on the right has outer hands in a forearm hold (which they continue doing in later iterations of the dance). Here's 1986 in Francestown NH: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE> At 0:30 I see two ballroom holds and two where the outer arms are holding a bit above the elbows. At 1:06 I see two ballroom holds, one of the hold from 0:30, and one of the symmetrical holds I described in the Portland OR video, though note that this is many of the same couples. Jumping ahead to 8:38 I see three ballroom holds and where the outer hands hold each other's forearms. Separately, I really like how enthusiastic the balances are: you can feel the room shake through to the camera! Here's one labeled 1986 Chico Contra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg> Almost all ballroom holds, except for one couple where the lady's left hand is on the back of the gent's right arm instead of behind his shoulder (doesn't look comfortable to me!) Here's 1976 in Bloomington: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w> . Looks like a performance. At 0:10 I see three couples where the outer hands are joined as in ballroom, the gent's right hand is around the lady's waist, and the lady's left hand is again on the back of the gent's right arm. Then there's one couple doing the symmetrical swing with left hands joined low between their bodies. Same again at 0:44, 1:11, etc. Here's 1967 somewhere in New England: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM> . I see ballroom at 0:35, 0:37, 3:15, 3:16, 5:08, 5:10. Then at 1:05 (and then again in the background at 5:11, and then again at 5:23 and 5:33) I see a forearm hold with arms that are straighter than I'm used to. At 2:08 I see a hold where the gents hands are both around the lady's waist and the lady's hands are both over the tops of the gent's shoulders. Here's 1981 in Belmont MA, but it's an hour and I'm going to bed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo> Jeff On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 4:33 PM Stein, Robert &lt;steinr(a)msu.edu <mailto:steinr@msu.edu>> wrote: The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same variety of swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel holds. Bob _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same variety of swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel holds. Bob contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: sounds like fun! I think video might be more promising? Here's a few annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and each bullet describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame at the timestamp. I only counted each couple once: back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder gent's right hand on lady's back gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back back, lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm behind lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I think of as the standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of variation. cuts. The 1964 video would be another one to try? contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really about?) and desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's intended. approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings. a year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different swing holds, where: (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the cover which he points out in the description is what to follow) lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper arm (Jennings, with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a lady's hands or "behind the upper arm" (Sanella) and holds described by both did include women holding men in ways that were supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that their hand is "resting on top" as with other couples' dances. after I touch on some specific points: supporting right hand." feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely experienced people who lean back. you are limited to the length of the shorter arm." and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size differences. There's always exceptions, sure. again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's less support that's needed to be given. going to be on top of me." the back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in the middle is partially off the shoulderblade. can naturally curve around the shoulderblade. coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward." list here has been dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't a thing I've really experienced or heard discussed. do it? an under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm comes in more open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their right arm before I try and wrap my right arm around. star promenade. rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged, anyway. in the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, and timing their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed. wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women. both people" as a universal and generic skill. seem! contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium that works for both people. that's fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing speed. their style to meet another dancer's differences in size, height, ability, tiredness, injury, age, etc. wrote: persons back, I agree with Joe. length of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space. (Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants their hand on my back.) coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and potentially harmful. contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a complaint about it. robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place." Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.) backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is fairly petite. an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar. works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.) wrote: but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide equal support in the swing. not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow, so it kills any enjoyment in that swing. support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder. juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing. occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture). That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers - can anticipate every need or difference. switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end on (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes over and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅. without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the traditional ballroom figure. contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm." doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were dancing the lady's role in the standard way? contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one. (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm, bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior change... they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though it was pretty great in other ways. where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible, because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt the lark. communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only pull forward. contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: email thread and observations. his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer. contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if I were just learning this swing. contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful. say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting with (visual at https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin… ) holding just above the elbow. left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right hand.) that in this video referenced by Allan - above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's arm? height of the two dancing partners? arm still be above the Lark's? you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than further apart. love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it! really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one. problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and that it not a lot inless you spin really fast. spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and weight. Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and then lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take their own weight or fall over. it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist. it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some getting used to. Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you could always try the Forearm Swing instead ( http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same principle, but further apart so no bodily contact. 07802 940 574 contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance. That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying yes to one person. few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra feel safer, especially for new dancers. difference. juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: feels more "intimate" than other holds? contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net feels more "intimate" than other holds? minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture? crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - though I wouldn't say the default) an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail? >>> >>> In dance, >>> Julian Blechner >>> He/him >>> Western Mass >>> >>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

On Mar 26, 2024, at 15:33, Julian Blechner via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: Responding to various points. And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always regional differences (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really about?) I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a friendly tone and desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's intended. I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings. The short version: despite being contemporaries and the books published a year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different swing holds, where: - a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the small of the back (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the cover which he points out in the description is what to follow) - a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom palm-up supporting the lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper arm (Jennings, with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a lady's hands - a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper arm (Jennings) or "behind the upper arm" (Sanella) So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing position, and holds described by both did include women holding men in ways that were supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that their hand is "resting on top" as with other couples' dances. Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back around to that after I touch on some specific points: RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against the Leftie’s supporting right hand." Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back" may be describing "the feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely experienced people who lean back. RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing together because you are limited to the length of the shorter arm." I don't think this is accurate. This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade isn't small, and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size differences. There's always exceptions, sure. Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing shoulderblades. Then again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's less support that's needed to be given. RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on top of me." I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in the "middle" of the back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in the middle is partially off the shoulderblade. I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the hand often can naturally curve around the shoulderblade. RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward." I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think everyone on this list here has been dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't a thing I've really experienced or heard discussed. So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but people just ... do it? As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing from a bit of an under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm comes in more open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their right arm before I try and wrap my right arm around. It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a good connection on a star promenade. Further to this point, if I were using the traditional "woman left arm rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged, anyway. Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra bit of work in the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, and timing their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed. This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work as wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women. Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role. Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role. Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role. Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role. Some men dance with men, some women with women. Etc. So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a swing work for both people" as a universal and generic skill. Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more automatic than it may seem! Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic aspects of contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium that works for both people. If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my shoulderblade, that's fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing speed. I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer can adjust their style to meet another dancer's differences in size, height, ability, tiredness, injury, age, etc. In dance, Julian Blechner On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein &lt;nschlein(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Hi Julian, Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other persons back, I agree with Joe. The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things. First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the length of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space. (Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants their hand on my back.) Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and potentially harmful. Neal Schlein Librarian, MSLIS On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: Hi Joe, You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a complaint about it. That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place." That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.) The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is fairly petite. I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I have an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar. That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing hold works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.) In dance, Julian Blechner On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington &lt;contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the lark's, but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide equal support in the swing. While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow, so it kills any enjoyment in that swing. Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder. --jh-- On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner &lt;juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: JJ, I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing. Joe, I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having elbows occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture). That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers - can anticipate every need or difference. In dance, Julian Blechner On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ &lt;jcgj95(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end on (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes over and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅. I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the traditional ballroom figure. On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm." When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were dancing the lady's role in the standard way? Jeff On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm, bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior change... In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though it was pretty great in other ways. The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible, because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt the lark. One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only pull forward. --jh-- On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about this email thread and observations. Short and simple: A "barrel hold" swing: - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer. In dance, -Julian Blechner On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if I were just learning this swing. Becky _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

Hi Julian, Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other persons back, I agree with Joe. The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things. First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the length of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space. (Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants their hand on my back.) Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and potentially harmful. Neal Schlein Librarian, MSLIS On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote:

JJ, I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing. Joe, I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having elbows occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture). That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers - can anticipate every need or difference. In dance, Julian Blechner On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ &lt;jcgj95(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the > switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end on > (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left > arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is the > "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell > myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes over > and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅. > > I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles > without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the > traditional ballroom figure. > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < > contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: > >> "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role >> actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm." >> >> When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially >> doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I >> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I >> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the >> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were >> dancing the lady's role in the standard way? >> >> Jeff >> >> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < >> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >> >>> I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way >>> that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I >>> have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs >>> (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if >>> one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if >>> you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than >>> ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one. >>> >>> In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role >>> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), >>> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is >>> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around >>> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm, >>> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around >>> each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never >>> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm >>> not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a >>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first >>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our >>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we >>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an >>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior >>> change... >>> >>> In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when >>> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the >>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and >>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't >>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though >>> it was pretty great in other ways. >>> >>> The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position >>> where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same >>> place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually >>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible, >>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same >>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside >>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, >>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain >>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my >>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the >>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop >>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt >>> the lark. >>> >>> One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no >>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the >>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire >>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to >>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they >>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light >>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more >>> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only >>> pull forward. >>> >>> --jh-- >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < >>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>> >>>> At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about >>>> this email thread and observations. >>>> >>>> Short and simple: >>>> A "barrel hold" swing: >>>> - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold >>>> - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with >>>> his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we >>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided >>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer. >>>> >>>> In dance, >>>> -Julian Blechner >>>> >>>> On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers < >>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>>> I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above the >>>>> lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that >>>>> having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the >>>>> transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is >>>>> always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is >>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things >>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm >>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if >>>>> I were just learning this swing. >>>>> Becky >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers < >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for >>>>> spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I >>>>> think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that >>>>> it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful. >>>>> >>>>> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: >>>>> you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting >>>>> with (visual at https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin… >>>>> ) >>>>> <https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0> >>>>> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that >>>>> are holding just above the elbow. >>>>> >>>>> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his >>>>> left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use >>>>> in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right >>>>> hand.) >>>>> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended: >>>>> >>>>> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198 >>>>> Starts at 3:18. >>>>> >>>>> Thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston - >>>>> >>>>> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold, >>>>> that in this video referenced by Allan - >>>>> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 <https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in the photo I shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's arm? >>>>> >>>>> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of the two dancing partners? >>>>> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm still be above the Lark's? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks all! >>>>> Kat K in Halifax >>>>> >>>>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers >>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; >>>>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM >>>>> Hi Kat, >>>>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When >>>>> you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a >>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than >>>>> further apart. >>>>> >>>>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras >>>>> and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra >>>>> dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it! >>>>> >>>>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it >>>>> really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough >>>>> connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt >>>>> that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it >>>>> was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just >>>>> awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one. >>>>> >>>>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest >>>>> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! >>>>> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own >>>>> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and >>>>> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast. >>>>> >>>>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the >>>>> spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and >>>>> weight. >>>>> >>>>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive >>>>> Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and then >>>>> lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - >>>>> maybe I shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't >>>>> afford to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing >>>>> at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I >>>>> just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take >>>>> their own weight or fall over. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will >>>>> find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist. >>>>> >>>>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to >>>>> do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some >>>>> getting used to. >>>>> >>>>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh >>>>> Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you >>>>> could always try the Forearm Swing instead ( >>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same >>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact. >>>>> >>>>> Happy dancing, >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & >>>>> 07802 940 574 >>>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers >>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; >>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM >>>>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and >>>>> lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a >>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with >>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY >>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance. >>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying >>>>> yes to one person. >>>>> >>>>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group >>>>> a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance >>>>> line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most important >>>>> intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which we used >>>>> to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would not agree >>>>> to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been >>>>> women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance >>>>> not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite >>>>> a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I >>>>> am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra feel >>>>> safer, especially for new dancers. >>>>> >>>>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the >>>>> difference. >>>>> >>>>> Becky >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner >>>>> &lt;juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; &lt;juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom >>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; >>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM >>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom >>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>> >>>>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our >>>>> minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture? >>>>> >>>>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, >>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to >>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - >>>>> though I wouldn't say the default) >>>>> >>>>> Is it something else? >>>>> >>>>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution >>>>> to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail? >>>>> >>>>> In dance, >>>>> Julian Blechner >>>>> He/him >>>>> Western Mass >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> >

"At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm." When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were dancing the lady's role in the standard way? Jeff On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about this email thread and observations. Short and simple: A "barrel hold" swing: - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer. In dance, -Julian Blechner On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful. The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting with (visual at https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin… ) <https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that are holding just above the elbow. But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right hand.) Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended: https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198 Starts at 3:18. Thoughts? Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston - Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold, that in this video referenced by Allan - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 <https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in the photo I shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's arm? Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of the two dancing partners? (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm still be above the Lark's? Thanks all! Kat K in Halifax _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

John Sweeney via Contra Callers <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM Hi Kat, Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than further apart. I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it! We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one. Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and that it not a lot inless you spin really fast. I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and weight. I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and then lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take their own weight or fall over. Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist. The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some getting used to. Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you could always try the Forearm Swing instead (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same principle, but further apart so no bodily contact. Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance. That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying yes to one person. As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra feel safer, especially for new dancers. I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the difference. Becky On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner &lt;juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture? Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - though I wouldn't say the default) Is it something else? Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail? In dance, Julian Blechner He/him Western Mass _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

In the discussion about some men being uncomfortable doing ballroom dance hold swing with other men, the modified ballroom hold (hand above elbow of partner instead of on robin’s shoulder) was mentioned. In this discussion, much has been said about men who don’t want to do ballroom hold with other men, but what nobody has mentioned yet is the scads of women (both straight and queer) who have long been uncomfortable dancing ballroom swing with men (or often just with particular men). *I am intrigued by this modified ballroom swing idea because it might solve many problems at once*. I have two simultaneous (and conflicting) emotional responses to men uncomfortable swinging with other men: The ungenerous one is: "As a lesbian I had to get over my discomfort swinging with you in order to participate in the joy of contra. If I can do it, you can do it." But more importantly (and more generously): *We’d like everyone to be as comfortable at contra dances as is reasonably feasible*. To that end, I am very interested in this idea of the modified ballroom hold. It might solve MANY different problems. Here are a few that come to mind: 1. The enforced intimacy problem: this is not just a problem with straight men being uncomfortable swinging with other men. There is a lot of forced intimacy in the ballroom hold. Maybe that intimacy is not the best thing to force on *anyone*?. Modified ballroom swing would help with the problem of not wanting enforced closeness/intimacy with others for all kinds of reasons: keeping distance from the lecherous dancer who uses the ballroom hold as an excuse for unwanted intimacy; but also simply to provide a bit of space for folks who simply aren’t comfortable being that close to ANYBODY. I recently struck up a conversation with a new dancer who was leaving early (because we need to know why we’re losing potential dancers) and she said “It just feels too intimate.” She didn’t say too intimate swinging with men or with women. Just “too intimate” and I got the definite feeling that it was the enforced close hold (with *everyone*) that was difficult for her. I wonder if we would have lost her if we used the modified ballroom swing (hand above elbow instead of on shoulder). 2. There are other difficulties with the ballroom hold: sometimes there is simply not enough room: short arms or large girth can make it difficult to reach the back of the shoulder of the other partner at times, and this leaves the Lark in the uncomfortable/dangerous position of “where do I put my hand now?” While trying to avoid the “accidental side boob graze” issue. 3. Speaking of which, is nobody else out there having trouble with this “side boob graze” problem with the ballroom hold? I’m a lesbian who dances the Lark role because of knee and hip issues. At least once/evening when moving into or out of the ballroom hold I accidentally graze the side of my partner’s breast. If I were straight I wouldn’t worry about it. But as a lesbian my mind always leaps to “what if she thinks I did that on purpose?” *Do straight men not also have this problem?? Why is nobody talking about this??* If the robin is female-presenting, the back of the robin’s shoulder is dangerously close to the side of her breast. Which means (a) it’s easy for a sleaze to cop a feel and pass it off as an accident, and (b) it’s easy for a lesbian or straight man to truly accidentally graze and then worry that they’ll be *perceived *as a sleaze. The elbow hold would solve both of these problems. 4. The robin clamping down their arm problem: Larks, have you ever danced with a robin who clamps down their arm on your wrist during the swing? Again, elbow hold would solve this. 5. The problem of robins dancing backwards when swinging: I have never danced the modified ballroom hold, but I’d like to know from folks who do: does it solve the problem of many robins feeling like they need to dance backwards when swinging? On the occasions when I do dance robin (usually because I’m pairing with a newbie who is dancing lark) I often find myself skittering backwards in the swing, instead of both of us walking/dancing forward. I’m not experienced enough as a robin to fully understand this phenomenon, but I think it has to do with the closeness and rigidity of some Larks’ hold in the ballroom swing. Question for folks who have used the elbow hold: does this hold solve this problem and allow the robin to dance forward instead of backward in the swing? I am particularly interested in this issue because I am about to move from Toronto (where the ballroom hold is firmly established) to an island off the coast of Vancouver (Bowen Island) where, if I want to continue to dance, I will have to start my own contra dance. This conversation has made me wonder whether I should start that group with the modified ballroom hold to solve many of these problems. *I’d love to hear from others who have used this swing about the pros and cons *(if any) and any other advice you’d have for someone starting a dance using this swing hold. Thanks!! Becky Liddle (Note: my email is changing from beckyliddle(a)bell.net to becky.liddle(a)icloud.com ) _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

Unsupported swings are the worst! Shoulder blades with nice rounded frame provide support and distance. Kat- can you clarify when you say the swing is like in Jeff’s third picture, does that mean the other arms are on shoulder blades like in the photo? Or are the other arms “point”? On Mar 13, 2024, at 5:06 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote:  oh! wonderful!! Here is the modified-hold swing I've been talking about, on Jeff K's page - third photo down!! labelled under the photo as *arm-hold ballroom swing* https://www.jefftk.com/p/contra-avoiding-sore-arms Thanks Jeff!! Now I'm going to comment to two things again - Julian's comment and Jeff's comment (both included below). Julian's question: "why [does] a ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?" For me personally, what I find more "intimate" about the ballroom hold (and a lot of the other holds), is that it puts me very close to the other person - closer than in any other figure - and also more "locked in" - since both hands of both people are involved in maintaining the hold. And what I noticed in my own body, when in recent dances I've been doing the elbow-hold ballroom position with most neighbours and a new man suddenly grabs my waist and pulls me into conventional ballroom hold - is that I don't really like his hand there on my back. I feel a bit trapped - like if I wanted to back away a little, I can't. (I acknowledge I am speaking in gendered terms here, but I feel it is relevant because for me, this feeling of being excessively close to someone only seems to come up when I'm dancing with some men. I've never to my recollection had a woman pull me "too close for comfort"). I'll be curious to hear how others answer this question. Regarding hand placement- I definitely agree with Jeff's page about the importance of symmetry - prior to our elbow-hold swing, we always taught the ballroom swing where both parties put their hands on the other person's shoulder blade- with the shorter person's arm going under the taller person's arm. I like the symmetry of it and fully agree that both parties should be responsible for supporting the other. And Jeff wrote: "In general, I would be excited to see common positioning move ... to where both people are using both of their arms to hold the couple together, sharing the weight more evenly" And that's one reason I love this elbow-hold (or "arm-hold" as Jeff calls it) - I've found this hold gives me an even better connection to my dancing patner than the shoulder-blade hold. It doesn't feel easy to cup one's hand in an effective way around someone else's back - and I agree it asks a lot of the wrist. I find it much easier to cup my hand around the back of someone's elbow - it is perfectly hand-sized :) . Kat K ----- Julian wrote: I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture? Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - though I wouldn't say the default) Is it something else? Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail? In dance, Julian Blechner He/him Western Mass Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:46 PM "I firmly believe that the best place for the lady's left hand is resting on the man's upper arm in a relaxed manner." The biggest downside of this approach is that in a conventional ballroom hold it puts all the effort of holding the couple together on the right wrist of the Lark/Gent. I have relatively weak wrists, and dancing as the Lark with people who rest their left hand on the Lark's upper arm is somewhere between tiring and painful. In general, I would be excited to see common positioning move in the opposite direction, to where both people are using both of their arms to hold the couple together, sharing the weight more evenly: https://www.jefftk.com/p/contra-avoiding-sore-arms Jeff _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net Becky Liddle via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; Wednesday, March 13, 2024 11:16 AM In the discussion about some men being uncomfortable doing ballroom dance hold swing with other men, the modified ballroom hold (hand above elbow of partner instead of on robin’s shoulder) was mentioned. In this discussion, much has been said about men who don’t want to do ballroom hold with other men, but what nobody has mentioned yet is the scads of women (both straight and queer) who have long been uncomfortable dancing ballroom swing with men (or often just with particular men). *I am intrigued by this modified ballroom swing idea because it might solve many problems at once*. I have two simultaneous (and conflicting) emotional responses to men uncomfortable swinging with other men: The ungenerous one is: "As a lesbian I had to get over my discomfort swinging with you in order to participate in the joy of contra. If I can do it, you can do it." But more importantly (and more generously): *We’d like everyone to be as comfortable at contra dances as is reasonably feasible*. To that end, I am very interested in this idea of the modified ballroom hold. It might solve MANY different problems. Here are a few that come to mind: 1. The enforced intimacy problem: this is not just a problem with straight men being uncomfortable swinging with other men. There is a lot of forced intimacy in the ballroom hold. Maybe that intimacy is not the best thing to force on *anyone*?. Modified ballroom swing would help with the problem of not wanting enforced closeness/intimacy with others for all kinds of reasons: keeping distance from the lecherous dancer who uses the ballroom hold as an excuse for unwanted intimacy; but also simply to provide a bit of space for folks who simply aren’t comfortable being that close to ANYBODY. I recently struck up a conversation with a new dancer who was leaving early (because we need to know why we’re losing potential dancers) and she said “It just feels too intimate.” She didn’t say too intimate swinging with men or with women. Just “too intimate” and I got the definite feeling that it was the enforced close hold (with *everyone*) that was difficult for her. I wonder if we would have lost her if we used the modified ballroom swing (hand above elbow instead of on shoulder). 2. There are other difficulties with the ballroom hold: sometimes there is simply not enough room: short arms or large girth can make it difficult to reach the back of the shoulder of the other partner at times, and this leaves the Lark in the uncomfortable/dangerous position of “where do I put my hand now?” While trying to avoid the “accidental side boob graze” issue. 3. Speaking of which, is nobody else out there having trouble with this “side boob graze” problem with the ballroom hold? I’m a lesbian who dances the Lark role because of knee and hip issues. At least once/evening when moving into or out of the ballroom hold I accidentally graze the side of my partner’s breast. If I were straight I wouldn’t worry about it. But as a lesbian my mind always leaps to “what if she thinks I did that on purpose?” *Do straight men not also have this problem?? Why is nobody talking about this??* If the robin is female-presenting, the back of the robin’s shoulder is dangerously close to the side of her breast. Which means (a) it’s easy for a sleaze to cop a feel and pass it off as an accident, and (b) it’s easy for a lesbian or straight man to truly accidentally graze and then worry that they’ll be *perceived *as a sleaze. The elbow hold would solve both of these problems. 4. The robin clamping down their arm problem: Larks, have you ever danced with a robin who clamps down their arm on your wrist during the swing? Again, elbow hold would solve this. 5. The problem of robins dancing backwards when swinging: I have never danced the modified ballroom hold, but I’d like to know from folks who do: does it solve the problem of many robins feeling like they need to dance backwards when swinging? On the occasions when I do dance robin (usually because I’m pairing with a newbie who is dancing lark) I often find myself skittering backwards in the swing, instead of both of us walking/dancing forward. I’m not experienced enough as a robin to fully understand this phenomenon, but I think it has to do with the closeness and rigidity of some Larks’ hold in the ballroom swing. Question for folks who have used the elbow hold: does this hold solve this problem and allow the robin to dance forward instead of backward in the swing? I am particularly interested in this issue because I am about to move from Toronto (where the ballroom hold is firmly established) to an island off the coast of Vancouver (Bowen Island) where, if I want to continue to dance, I will have to start my own contra dance. This conversation has made me wonder whether I should start that group with the modified ballroom hold to solve many of these problems. *I’d love to hear from others who have used this swing about the pros and cons *(if any) and any other advice you’d have for someone starting a dance using this swing hold. Thanks!! Becky Liddle (Note: my email is changing from beckyliddle(a)bell.net to becky.liddle(a)icloud.com ) _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:46 PM "I firmly believe that the best place for the lady's left hand is resting on the man's upper arm in a relaxed manner." The biggest downside of this approach is that in a conventional ballroom hold it puts all the effort of holding the couple together on the right wrist of the Lark/Gent. I have relatively weak wrists, and dancing as the Lark with people who rest their left hand on the Lark's upper arm is somewhere between tiring and painful. In general, I would be excited to see common positioning move in the opposite direction, to where both people are using both of their arms to hold the couple together, sharing the weight more evenly: https://www.jefftk.com/p/contra-avoiding-sore-arms Jeff _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net Becky Liddle via Contra Callers <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 11:16 AM In the discussion about some men being uncomfortable doing ballroom dance hold swing with other men, the modified ballroom hold (hand above elbow of partner instead of on robin’s shoulder) was mentioned. In this discussion, much has been said about men who don’t want to do ballroom hold with other men, but what nobody has mentioned yet is the scads of women (both straight and queer) who have long been uncomfortable dancing ballroom swing with men (or often just with particular men). _I am intrigued by this modified ballroom swing idea because it might solve many problems at once_. I have two simultaneous (and conflicting) emotional responses to men uncomfortable swinging with other men: The ungenerous one is: "As a lesbian I had to get over my discomfort swinging with you in order to participate in the joy of contra. If I can do it, you can do it." But more importantly (and more generously): _We’d like everyone to be as comfortable at contra dances as is reasonably feasible_. To that end, I am very interested in this idea of the modified ballroom hold. It might solve MANY different problems. Here are a few that come to mind: 1. The enforced intimacy problem: this is not just a problem with straight men being uncomfortable swinging with other men. There is a lot of forced intimacy in the ballroom hold. Maybe that intimacy is not the best thing to force on _anyone_?. Modified ballroom swing would help with the problem of not wanting enforced closeness/intimacy with others for all kinds of reasons: keeping distance from the lecherous dancer who uses the ballroom hold as an excuse for unwanted intimacy; but also simply to provide a bit of space for folks who simply aren’t comfortable being that close to ANYBODY. I recently struck up a conversation with a new dancer who was leaving early (because we need to know why we’re losing potential dancers) and she said “It just feels too intimate.” She didn’t say too intimate swinging with men or with women. Just “too intimate” and I got the definite feeling that it was the enforced close hold (with /everyone/) that was difficult for her. I wonder if we would have lost her if we used the modified ballroom swing (hand above elbow instead of on shoulder). 2. There are other difficulties with the ballroom hold: sometimes there is simply not enough room: short arms or large girth can make it difficult to reach the back of the shoulder of the other partner at times, and this leaves the Lark in the uncomfortable/dangerous position of “where do I put my hand now?” While trying to avoid the “accidental side boob graze” issue. 3. Speaking of which, is nobody else out there having trouble with this “side boob graze” problem with the ballroom hold? I’m a lesbian who dances the Lark role because of knee and hip issues. At least once/evening when moving into or out of the ballroom hold I accidentally graze the side of my partner’s breast. If I were straight I wouldn’t worry about it. But as a lesbian my mind always leaps to “what if she thinks I did that on purpose?” _Do straight men not also have this problem?? Why is nobody talking about this??_ If the robin is female-presenting, the back of the robin’s shoulder is dangerously close to the side of her breast. Which means (a) it’s easy for a sleaze to cop a feel and pass it off as an accident, and (b) it’s easy for a lesbian or straight man to truly accidentally graze and then worry that they’ll be _perceived _as a sleaze. The elbow hold would solve both of these problems. 4. The robin clamping down their arm problem: Larks, have you ever danced with a robin who clamps down their arm on your wrist during the swing? Again, elbow hold would solve this. 5. The problem of robins dancing backwards when swinging: I have never danced the modified ballroom hold, but I’d like to know from folks who do: does it solve the problem of many robins feeling like they need to dance backwards when swinging? On the occasions when I do dance robin (usually because I’m pairing with a newbie who is dancing lark) I often find myself skittering backwards in the swing, instead of both of us walking/dancing forward. I’m not experienced enough as a robin to fully understand this phenomenon, but I think it has to do with the closeness and rigidity of some Larks’ hold in the ballroom swing. Question for folks who have used the elbow hold: does this hold solve this problem and allow the robin to dance forward instead of backward in the swing? I am particularly interested in this issue because I am about to move from Toronto (where the ballroom hold is firmly established) to an island off the coast of Vancouver (Bowen Island) where, if I want to continue to dance, I will have to start my own contra dance. This conversation has made me wonder whether I should start that group with the modified ballroom hold to solve many of these problems. _I’d love to hear from others who have used this swing about the pros and cons _(if any) and any other advice you’d have for someone starting a dance using this swing hold. Thanks!! Becky Liddle (Note: my email is changing from beckyliddle(a)bell.net <mailto:beckyliddle@bell.net> to becky.liddle(a)icloud.com <mailto:becky.liddle@icloud.com> ) _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

Hello! I was the one who suggested the modified ballroom swing, and I'm going to respond here to both some of Becky and Jerome's and John's questions/ thoughts. Women's discomfort in conventional ballroom hold I did actually mention in my initial email that as a cisgender woman, I have really appreciated the additional space that the modified ballroom hold creates between me and the men I dance with. Actually as a not particularly touchy-feely human being, I appreciate the additional space it creates between me and anyone I dance with! But I have especially appreciated the space between me and any male partner. Interestingly, I didn't think about it too much in the past. I was fairly comfortable swinging with anyone, and our group has a good vibe so there isn't much creepiness. I felt fine with the conventional ballroom swing. But -- now that we have implemented the modified ballroom hold as the standard with all neighbours and also as the standard with a partner if you don't discuss otherwise, it's been *very* interesting.... I've sometimes swung with a male partner who decides to use conventional ballroom without discussing it --and I suddenly feel VERY claustrophobic about it! I will usually say to them when I get a chance - "let's remember to use the elbow-hold now!" - and as soon as they do, I instantly breath a sigh of relief. It just feels way more comfortable to me. Without exception. -- (and to give these fellows who launch right into conventional ballroom hold the benefit of the doubt- they tend to be our longest-term dancers and it I think in a lot of cases they just have a hard time re-programming - we have only been doing the modified ballroom for about 6 months, and not everyone comes to every dance. I'm giving them time to get used to the new normal. That said, I am pretty sure there are few men who think, "oh, she is a caller, she is an experienced dancer, she will be happy to swing closely with me!" . I have this idea because a few of them seem to roll their eyes a bit when I remind them that I prefer to dance with the new modified hold :D Incidentally this has never happened with a female partner....)... Inadvertent "boob touching" This is not something I have ever heard of before in the swing, but someone did bring it up a few dances ago when we tried to use a modified, more role-symmetrical hold for the courtesy turn, with both hands crossed in front. One of our longtime and larger-busted female dancers told me that this was *not* going to work, due to all the inadvertent boob touching that happened to her when her partners were getting into position. So we canned that idea! :) And it made me more aware of this issue as something to watch out for. Thanks for drawing attention to it as a potential aspect of the swing. Robins arm-clamping and robins feeling like they have to skitter backwards I haven't consciously encountered either of these issues but look forward to hearing more. (Jerome's point) - Signalling which flavour of swing to use? So in our community, we have just made it clear that this modified ballroom hold is now the new standard. So, that means for every neighbour you meet, this is how you swing with them. And with your partner, this is what is expected --unless the two of you have a consensual conversation and decide on something else. (and sometimes for fun we do show partway through the dance, some other swing holds that partners may like to experiment with, if they are comfortable with each other. John S's page has been very helpful in this regard!! Thank you John :) ) Of course, if two neighbours meet each other in the line and they know each other well (e.g. maybe they are spouses!), they may spontaneously do something else becauuse they know each other well enough to feel that out on the spot. But we make it very clear that you should not assume that your neighbour or partner wants to do something other than the standard hold, unless you have an explicit discussion. Since that's not really feasible with neighbours, it means that neighbours in almost all cases are going to swing with the modified ballroom and that is that :) Regarding John's request to get a visual of this hold - i'll be curious if anyone else on this list is using this new hold, or if it is just us in Halifax. I can't even remember now how we came up with the idea. It may have been through our own experimenting. A bunch of us have been chatting after some dances about how we can make our figures as gender-neutral/symmetrical as possible, and we have been trying out all sorts of different swing holds to see what might work best for us. Sometimes we start with one of John's examples and then see how it might be modified if it feels too close. As I suggested above, we've also been trying to figure out more symmetrical-hold courtesy-turn alternatives (for robins and larks chains) but so far haven't found a satisfactory one. (feel free to start a new thread if you have any ideas!). John - if nobody else has a photo or video of the hold we're using in Halifax, I will try to remember to get one for you at our April dance! writing myself a note, now... best, Kat K Halifax NS Canada John Sweeney &lt;john(a)modernjive.com&gt; &lt;john(a)modernjive.com&gt; Please could someone post a picture or video of the modified ballroom hold that is being discussed? Or send it to me and I will add it to my Web site with a link so that people can see it. Thanks. Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent Jerome Grisanti via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; Wednesday, March 13, 2024 11:36 AM One challenge is implementation: if the whole group learned the same swing position, symmetrical or asymmetrical, from scratch, your proposal would not be a problem unless/until your dancers visited other dances — and even then. perhaps not a big issue. In a community with mixed crowds (both experienced and newcomers), dancers would need to signal which flavor of swing they wanted. And what about folks with two different preferences meeting for a neighbor swing? So developing those signals, and defaults, would be my focus. As for the swing itself, I believe John Sweeny or one of the other UK members of the list has a video catalog of various swings on a website. Good teaching tips too. Jerome _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net Becky Liddle via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; Wednesday, March 13, 2024 11:16 AM In the discussion about some men being uncomfortable doing ballroom dance hold swing with other men, the modified ballroom hold (hand above elbow of partner instead of on robin’s shoulder) was mentioned. In this discussion, much has been said about men who don’t want to do ballroom hold with other men, but what nobody has mentioned yet is the scads of women (both straight and queer) who have long been uncomfortable dancing ballroom swing with men (or often just with particular men). *I am intrigued by this modified ballroom swing idea because it might solve many problems at once*. I have two simultaneous (and conflicting) emotional responses to men uncomfortable swinging with other men: The ungenerous one is: "As a lesbian I had to get over my discomfort swinging with you in order to participate in the joy of contra. If I can do it, you can do it." But more importantly (and more generously): *We’d like everyone to be as comfortable at contra dances as is reasonably feasible*. To that end, I am very interested in this idea of the modified ballroom hold. It might solve MANY different problems. Here are a few that come to mind: 1. The enforced intimacy problem: this is not just a problem with straight men being uncomfortable swinging with other men. There is a lot of forced intimacy in the ballroom hold. Maybe that intimacy is not the best thing to force on *anyone*?. Modified ballroom swing would help with the problem of not wanting enforced closeness/intimacy with others for all kinds of reasons: keeping distance from the lecherous dancer who uses the ballroom hold as an excuse for unwanted intimacy; but also simply to provide a bit of space for folks who simply aren’t comfortable being that close to ANYBODY. I recently struck up a conversation with a new dancer who was leaving early (because we need to know why we’re losing potential dancers) and she said “It just feels too intimate.” She didn’t say too intimate swinging with men or with women. Just “too intimate” and I got the definite feeling that it was the enforced close hold (with *everyone*) that was difficult for her. I wonder if we would have lost her if we used the modified ballroom swing (hand above elbow instead of on shoulder). 2. There are other difficulties with the ballroom hold: sometimes there is simply not enough room: short arms or large girth can make it difficult to reach the back of the shoulder of the other partner at times, and this leaves the Lark in the uncomfortable/dangerous position of “where do I put my hand now?” While trying to avoid the “accidental side boob graze” issue. 3. Speaking of which, is nobody else out there having trouble with this “side boob graze” problem with the ballroom hold? I’m a lesbian who dances the Lark role because of knee and hip issues. At least once/evening when moving into or out of the ballroom hold I accidentally graze the side of my partner’s breast. If I were straight I wouldn’t worry about it. But as a lesbian my mind always leaps to “what if she thinks I did that on purpose?” *Do straight men not also have this problem?? Why is nobody talking about this??* If the robin is female-presenting, the back of the robin’s shoulder is dangerously close to the side of her breast. Which means (a) it’s easy for a sleaze to cop a feel and pass it off as an accident, and (b) it’s easy for a lesbian or straight man to truly accidentally graze and then worry that they’ll be *perceived *as a sleaze. The elbow hold would solve both of these problems. 4. The robin clamping down their arm problem: Larks, have you ever danced with a robin who clamps down their arm on your wrist during the swing? Again, elbow hold would solve this. 5. The problem of robins dancing backwards when swinging: I have never danced the modified ballroom hold, but I’d like to know from folks who do: does it solve the problem of many robins feeling like they need to dance backwards when swinging? On the occasions when I do dance robin (usually because I’m pairing with a newbie who is dancing lark) I often find myself skittering backwards in the swing, instead of both of us walking/dancing forward. I’m not experienced enough as a robin to fully understand this phenomenon, but I think it has to do with the closeness and rigidity of some Larks’ hold in the ballroom swing. Question for folks who have used the elbow hold: does this hold solve this problem and allow the robin to dance forward instead of backward in the swing? I am particularly interested in this issue because I am about to move from Toronto (where the ballroom hold is firmly established) to an island off the coast of Vancouver (Bowen Island) where, if I want to continue to dance, I will have to start my own contra dance. This conversation has made me wonder whether I should start that group with the modified ballroom hold to solve many of these problems. *I’d love to hear from others who have used this swing about the pros and cons *(if any) and any other advice you’d have for someone starting a dance using this swing hold. Thanks!! Becky Liddle (Note: my email is changing from beckyliddle(a)bell.net to becky.liddle(a)icloud.com ) _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net