13 Mar
2024
13 Mar
'24
10:16 a.m.
In the discussion about some men being uncomfortable doing ballroom dance hold swing with
other men, the modified ballroom hold (hand above elbow of partner instead of on robin’s
shoulder) was mentioned.
In this discussion, much has been said about men who don’t want to do ballroom hold with
other men, but what nobody has mentioned yet is the scads of women (both straight and
queer) who have long been uncomfortable dancing ballroom swing with men (or often just
with particular men). I am intrigued by this modified ballroom swing idea because it might
solve many problems at once.
I have two simultaneous (and conflicting) emotional responses to men uncomfortable
swinging with other men:
The ungenerous one is: "As a lesbian I had to get over my discomfort swinging with
you in order to participate in the joy of contra. If I can do it, you can do it." But
more importantly (and more generously): We’d like everyone to be as comfortable at contra
dances as is reasonably feasible. To that end, I am very interested in this idea of the
modified ballroom hold. It might solve MANY different problems. Here are a few that come
to mind:
1. The enforced intimacy problem: this is not just a problem with straight men being
uncomfortable swinging with other men. There is a lot of forced intimacy in the ballroom
hold. Maybe that intimacy is not the best thing to force on anyone?. Modified ballroom
swing would help with the problem of not wanting enforced closeness/intimacy with others
for all kinds of reasons: keeping distance from the lecherous dancer who uses the ballroom
hold as an excuse for unwanted intimacy; but also simply to provide a bit of space for
folks who simply aren’t comfortable being that close to ANYBODY. I recently struck up a
conversation with a new dancer who was leaving early (because we need to know why we’re
losing potential dancers) and she said “It just feels too intimate.” She didn’t say too
intimate swinging with men or with women. Just “too intimate” and I got the definite
feeling that it was the enforced close hold (with everyone) that was difficult for her. I
wonder if we would have lost her if we used the modified ballroom swing (hand above elbow
instead of on shoulder).
2. There are other difficulties with the ballroom hold: sometimes there is simply not
enough room: short arms or large girth can make it difficult to reach the back of the
shoulder of the other partner at times, and this leaves the Lark in the
uncomfortable/dangerous position of “where do I put my hand now?” While trying to avoid
the “accidental side boob graze” issue.
3. Speaking of which, is nobody else out there having trouble with this “side boob graze”
problem with the ballroom hold? I’m a lesbian who dances the Lark role because of knee and
hip issues. At least once/evening when moving into or out of the ballroom hold I
accidentally graze the side of my partner’s breast. If I were straight I wouldn’t worry
about it. But as a lesbian my mind always leaps to “what if she thinks I did that on
purpose?” Do straight men not also have this problem?? Why is nobody talking about this??
If the robin is female-presenting, the back of the robin’s shoulder is dangerously close
to the side of her breast. Which means (a) it’s easy for a sleaze to cop a feel and pass
it off as an accident, and (b) it’s easy for a lesbian or straight man to truly
accidentally graze and then worry that they’ll be perceived as a sleaze. The elbow hold
would solve both of these problems.
4. The robin clamping down their arm problem: Larks, have you ever danced with a robin who
clamps down their arm on your wrist during the swing? Again, elbow hold would solve this.
5. The problem of robins dancing backwards when swinging: I have never danced the modified
ballroom hold, but I’d like to know from folks who do: does it solve the problem of many
robins feeling like they need to dance backwards when swinging? On the occasions when I do
dance robin (usually because I’m pairing with a newbie who is dancing lark) I often find
myself skittering backwards in the swing, instead of both of us walking/dancing forward.
I’m not experienced enough as a robin to fully understand this phenomenon, but I think it
has to do with the closeness and rigidity of some Larks’ hold in the ballroom swing.
Question for folks who have used the elbow hold: does this hold solve this problem and
allow the robin to dance forward instead of backward in the swing?
I am particularly interested in this issue because I am about to move from Toronto (where
the ballroom hold is firmly established) to an island off the coast of Vancouver (Bowen
Island) where, if I want to continue to dance, I will have to start my own contra dance.
This conversation has made me wonder whether I should start that group with the modified
ballroom hold to solve many of these problems. I’d love to hear from others who have used
this swing about the pros and cons (if any) and any other advice you’d have for someone
starting a dance using this swing hold.
Thanks!!
Becky Liddle
(Note: my email is changing from beckyliddle(a)bell.net <mailto:beckyliddle@bell.net>
to becky.liddle(a)icloud.com <mailto:becky.liddle@icloud.com> )
13 Mar
13 Mar
10:35 a.m.
Hi, Becky,
This is one that without a good visual to know exactly what this means, I'm not sure I
like this. The reason why people are taught to put a hand on the shoulder blade is that
the shoulder blade is a good solid part of the body to put a flat hand and provide the
weight to go around in a satisfying swing. I can't imagine this "hand above
elbow" thing. I *have* seen the hand below elbow thing, though, but I feel that
putting weight on the elbow is more likely to cause injury than on the shoulder blade,
especially if you are pushing upwards on a bent elbow. I'm guessing that what you are
describing is something different than I am imagining.
As for the boob problem, that is something that I feel can be solved by good swing
technique. My main issue is when you swing, the hips should be side to side, but the
torso is should still be somewhat square so that my arm doesn't go across the breast.
And as a man I make great effort not to brush against anyone's breast by going around
as best as I can, by going all the way around to the back of the shoulder. And those
times when I do brush against the breast, I apologize profusely, and most people are
understanding, as the apology shows that I'm not there to grope.
I *think* a lot of people can tell the difference between a grope and accident, but
I'm probably wrong about this. I'd like to hear some more thoughts from other
people on this. It would be good to know what to do to help prevent accidental boob
touching.
Perry
On Wednesday, March 13, 2024 at 10:17:30 AM EDT, Becky Liddle via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
In the discussion about some men being uncomfortable doing ballroom dance hold swing with
other men, the modified ballroom hold (hand above elbow of partner instead of on robin’s
shoulder) was mentioned.
In this discussion, much has been said about men who don’t want to do ballroom hold with
other men, but what nobody has mentioned yet is the scads of women (both straight and
queer) who have long been uncomfortable dancing ballroom swing with men (or often just
with particular men). I am intrigued by this modified ballroom swing idea because it might
solve many problems at once.
I have two simultaneous (and conflicting) emotional responses to men uncomfortable
swinging with other men:The ungenerous one is: "As a lesbian I had to get over my
discomfort swinging with you in order to participate in the joy of contra. If I can do it,
you can do it." But more importantly (and more generously): We’d like everyone to be
as comfortable at contra dances as is reasonably feasible. To that end, I am very
interested in this idea of the modified ballroom hold. It might solve MANY different
problems. Here are a few that come to mind:
1. The enforced intimacy problem: this is not just a problem with straight men being
uncomfortable swinging with other men. There is a lot of forced intimacy in the ballroom
hold. Maybe that intimacy is not the best thing to force on anyone?. Modified ballroom
swing would help with the problem of not wanting enforced closeness/intimacy with others
for all kinds of reasons: keeping distance from the lecherous dancer who uses the ballroom
hold as an excuse for unwanted intimacy; but also simply to provide a bit of space for
folks who simply aren’t comfortable being that close to ANYBODY. I recently struck up a
conversation with a new dancer who was leaving early (because we need to know why we’re
losing potential dancers) and she said “It just feels too intimate.” She didn’t say too
intimate swinging with men or with women. Just “too intimate” and I got the definite
feeling that it was the enforced close hold (with everyone) that was difficult for her. I
wonder if we would have lost her if we used the modified ballroom swing (hand above elbow
instead of on shoulder).
2. There are other difficulties with the ballroom hold: sometimes there is simply not
enough room: short arms or large girth can make it difficult to reach the back of the
shoulder of the other partner at times, and this leaves the Lark in the
uncomfortable/dangerous position of “where do I put my hand now?” While trying to avoid
the “accidental side boob graze” issue.
3. Speaking of which, is nobody else out there having trouble with this “side boob graze”
problem with the ballroom hold? I’m a lesbian who dances the Lark role because of knee and
hip issues. At least once/evening when moving into or out of the ballroom hold I
accidentally graze the side of my partner’s breast. If I were straight I wouldn’t worry
about it. But as a lesbian my mind always leaps to “what if she thinks I did that on
purpose?” Do straight men not also have this problem?? Why is nobody talking about
this?? If the robin is female-presenting, the back of the robin’s shoulder is dangerously
close to the side of her breast. Which means (a) it’s easy for a sleaze to cop a feel and
pass it off as an accident, and (b) it’s easy for a lesbian or straight man to truly
accidentally graze and then worry that they’ll be perceived as a sleaze. The elbow hold
would solve both of these problems.
4. The robin clamping down their arm problem: Larks, have you ever danced with a robin who
clamps down their arm on your wrist during the swing? Again, elbow hold would solve this.
5. The problem of robins dancing backwards when swinging: I have never danced the modified
ballroom hold, but I’d like to know from folks who do: does it solve the problem of many
robins feeling like they need to dance backwards when swinging? On the occasions when I do
dance robin (usually because I’m pairing with a newbie who is dancing lark) I often find
myself skittering backwards in the swing, instead of both of us walking/dancing forward.
I’m not experienced enough as a robin to fully understand this phenomenon, but I think it
has to do with the closeness and rigidity of some Larks’ hold in the ballroom swing.
Question for folks who have used the elbow hold: does this hold solve this problem and
allow the robin to dance forward instead of backward in the swing?
I am particularly interested in this issue because I am about to move from Toronto (where
the ballroom hold is firmly established) to an island off the coast of Vancouver (Bowen
Island) where, if I want to continue to dance, I will have to start my own contra dance.
This conversation has made me wonder whether I should start that group with the modified
ballroom hold to solve many of these problems. I’d love to hear from others who have used
this swing about the pros and cons (if any) and any other advice you’d have for someone
starting a dance using this swing hold.
Thanks!!Becky Liddle(Note: my email is changing from beckyliddle(a)bell.net to
becky.liddle(a)icloud.com )_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
10:36 a.m.
One challenge is implementation: if the whole group learned the same swing
position, symmetrical or asymmetrical, from scratch, your proposal would
not be a problem unless/until your dancers visited other dances — and even
then. perhaps not a big issue.
In a community with mixed crowds (both experienced and newcomers), dancers
would need to signal which flavor of swing they wanted. And what about
folks with two different preferences meeting for a neighbor swing?
So developing those signals, and defaults, would be my focus. As for the
swing itself, I believe John Sweeny or one of the other UK members of the
list has a video catalog of various swings on a website. Good teaching tips
too.
Jerome
On Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 10:17 AM Becky Liddle via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
In the discussion about some men being uncomfortable
doing ballroom dance
hold swing with other men, the modified ballroom hold (hand above elbow of
partner instead of on robin’s shoulder) was mentioned.
In this discussion, much has been said about men who don’t want to do
ballroom hold with other men, but what nobody has mentioned yet is the
scads of women (both straight and queer) who have long been uncomfortable
dancing ballroom swing with men (or often just with particular men). *I
am intrigued by this modified ballroom swing idea because it might solve
many problems at once*.
I have two simultaneous (and conflicting) emotional responses to men
uncomfortable swinging with other men:
The ungenerous one is: "As a lesbian I had to get over my discomfort
swinging with you in order to participate in the joy of contra. If I can do
it, you can do it." But more importantly (and more generously): *We’d
like everyone to be as comfortable at contra dances as is reasonably
feasible*. To that end, I am very interested in this idea of the modified
ballroom hold. It might solve MANY different problems. Here are a few that
come to mind:
1. The enforced intimacy problem: this is not just a problem with straight
men being uncomfortable swinging with other men. There is a lot of forced
intimacy in the ballroom hold. Maybe that intimacy is not the best thing to
force on *anyone*?. Modified ballroom swing would help with the problem
of not wanting enforced closeness/intimacy with others for all kinds of
reasons: keeping distance from the lecherous dancer who uses the ballroom
hold as an excuse for unwanted intimacy; but also simply to provide a bit
of space for folks who simply aren’t comfortable being that close to
ANYBODY. I recently struck up a conversation with a new dancer who was
leaving early (because we need to know why we’re losing potential dancers)
and she said “It just feels too intimate.” She didn’t say too intimate
swinging with men or with women. Just “too intimate” and I got the definite
feeling that it was the enforced close hold (with *everyone*) that was
difficult for her. I wonder if we would have lost her if we used the
modified ballroom swing (hand above elbow instead of on shoulder).
2. There are other difficulties with the ballroom hold: sometimes there is
simply not enough room: short arms or large girth can make it difficult to
reach the back of the shoulder of the other partner at times, and this
leaves the Lark in the uncomfortable/dangerous position of “where do I put
my hand now?” While trying to avoid the “accidental side boob graze” issue.
3. Speaking of which, is nobody else out there having trouble with this
“side boob graze” problem with the ballroom hold? I’m a lesbian who dances
the Lark role because of knee and hip issues. At least once/evening when
moving into or out of the ballroom hold I accidentally graze the side of my
partner’s breast. If I were straight I wouldn’t worry about it. But as a
lesbian my mind always leaps to “what if she thinks I did that on purpose?” *Do
straight men not also have this problem?? Why is nobody talking about
this??* If the robin is female-presenting, the back of the robin’s
shoulder is dangerously close to the side of her breast. Which means (a)
it’s easy for a sleaze to cop a feel and pass it off as an accident, and
(b) it’s easy for a lesbian or straight man to truly accidentally graze and
then worry that they’ll be *perceived *as a sleaze. The elbow hold would
solve both of these problems.
4. The robin clamping down their arm problem: Larks, have you ever danced
with a robin who clamps down their arm on your wrist during the swing?
Again, elbow hold would solve this.
5. The problem of robins dancing backwards when swinging: I have never
danced the modified ballroom hold, but I’d like to know from folks who do:
does it solve the problem of many robins feeling like they need to dance
backwards when swinging? On the occasions when I do dance robin (usually
because I’m pairing with a newbie who is dancing lark) I often find myself
skittering backwards in the swing, instead of both of us walking/dancing
forward. I’m not experienced enough as a robin to fully understand this
phenomenon, but I think it has to do with the closeness and rigidity of
some Larks’ hold in the ballroom swing. Question for folks who have used
the elbow hold: does this hold solve this problem and allow the robin to
dance forward instead of backward in the swing?
I am particularly interested in this issue because I am about to move from
Toronto (where the ballroom hold is firmly established) to an island off
the coast of Vancouver (Bowen Island) where, if I want to continue to
dance, I will have to start my own contra dance. This conversation has made
me wonder whether I should start that group with the modified ballroom hold
to solve many of these problems. *I’d love to hear from others who have
used this swing about the pros and cons *(if any) and any other advice
you’d have for someone starting a dance using this swing hold.
Thanks!!
Becky Liddle
(Note: my email is changing from beckyliddle(a)bell.net to
becky.liddle(a)icloud.com )
_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
11:19 a.m.
Hello!
I was the one who suggested the modified ballroom swing, and I'm going
to respond here to both some of Becky and Jerome's and John's questions/
thoughts.
Women's discomfort in conventional ballroom hold
I did actually mention in my initial email that as a cisgender woman, I
have really appreciated the additional space that the modified ballroom
hold creates between me and the men I dance with.
Actually as a not particularly touchy-feely human being, I appreciate
the additional space it creates between me and anyone I dance with!
But I have especially appreciated the space between me and any male partner.
Interestingly, I didn't think about it too much in the past. I was
fairly comfortable swinging with anyone, and our group has a good vibe
so there isn't much creepiness. I felt fine with the conventional
ballroom swing.
But -- now that we have implemented the modified ballroom hold as the
standard with all neighbours and also as the standard with a partner if
you don't discuss otherwise, it's been *very* interesting....
I've sometimes swung with a male partner who decides to use conventional
ballroom without discussing it --and I suddenly feel VERY
claustrophobic about it!
I will usually say to them when I get a chance - "let's remember to use
the elbow-hold now!" - and as soon as they do, I instantly breath a
sigh of relief. It just feels way more comfortable to me. Without
exception.
-- (and to give these fellows who launch right into conventional
ballroom hold the benefit of the doubt- they tend to be our longest-term
dancers and it I think in a lot of cases they just have a hard time
re-programming - we have only been doing the modified ballroom for about
6 months, and not everyone comes to every dance. I'm giving them time to
get used to the new normal. That said, I am pretty sure there are few
men who think, "oh, she is a caller, she is an experienced dancer, she
will be happy to swing closely with me!" . I have this idea because a
few of them seem to roll their eyes a bit when I remind them that I
prefer to dance with the new modified hold :D Incidentally this has
never happened with a female partner....)...
Inadvertent "boob touching"
This is not something I have ever heard of before in the swing, but
someone did bring it up a few dances ago when we tried to use a
modified, more role-symmetrical hold for the courtesy turn, with both
hands crossed in front. One of our longtime and larger-busted female
dancers told me that this was *not* going to work, due to all the
inadvertent boob touching that happened to her when her partners were
getting into position. So we canned that idea! :) And it made me more
aware of this issue as something to watch out for.
Thanks for drawing attention to it as a potential aspect of the swing.
Robins arm-clamping and robins feeling like they have to skitter backwards
I haven't consciously encountered either of these issues but look
forward to hearing more.
(Jerome's point) -Signalling which flavour of swing to use?
So in our community, we have just made it clear that this modified
ballroom hold is now the new standard.
So, that means for every neighbour you meet, this is how you swing with
them.
And with your partner, this is what is expected --unless the two of you
have a consensual conversation and decide on something else.
(and sometimes for fun we do show partway through the dance, some other
swing holds that partners may like to experiment with, if they are
comfortablewith each other. John S's page has been very helpful in this
regard!! Thank you John :) )
Of course, if two neighbours meet each other in the line and they know
each other well (e.g. maybe they are spouses!), they may spontaneously
do something else becauuse they know each other well enough to feel that
out on the spot. But we make it very clear that you should not assume
that your neighbour or partner wants to do something other than the
standard hold, unless you have an explicit discussion. Since that's not
really feasible with neighbours, it means that neighbours in almost all
cases are going to swing with the modified ballroom and that is that :)
Regarding John's request to get a visual of this hold
- i'll be curious if anyone else on this list is using this new hold, or
if it is just us in Halifax.
I can't even remember now how we came up with the idea. It may have
been through our own experimenting. A bunch of us have been chatting
after some dances about how we can make our figures as
gender-neutral/symmetrical as possible, and we have been trying out all
sorts of different swing holds to see what might work best for us.
Sometimes we start with one of John's examples and then see how it might
be modified if it feels too close. As I suggested above, we've also
been trying to figure out more symmetrical-hold courtesy-turn
alternatives (for robins and larks chains) but so far haven't found a
satisfactory one.
(feel free to start a new thread if you have any ideas!).
John - if nobody else has a photo or video of the hold we're using in
Halifax, I will try to remember to get one for you at our April dance!
writing myself a note, now...
best,
Kat K
Halifax NS Canada
John Sweeney <john(a)modernjive.com>
Please could someone post a picture or video of the modified ballroom
hold that is being discussed? Or send it to me and I will add it to my
Web site with a link so that people can see it.
Thanks.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com
<mailto:john@modernjive.com> 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
Jerome Grisanti via Contra Callers
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 11:36 AM
One challenge is implementation: if the whole group learned the same
swing position, symmetrical or asymmetrical, from scratch, your
proposal would not be a problem unless/until your dancers visited
other dances — and even then. perhaps not a big issue.
In a community with mixed crowds (both experienced and newcomers),
dancers would need to signal which flavor of swing they wanted. And
what about folks with two different preferences meeting for a neighbor
swing?
So developing those signals, and defaults, would be my focus. As for
the swing itself, I believe John Sweeny or one of the other UK members
of the list has a video catalog of various swings on a website. Good
teaching tips too.
Jerome
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Becky Liddle via Contra Callers
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 11:16 AM
In the discussion about some men being uncomfortable doing ballroom
dance hold swing with other men, the modified ballroom hold (hand
above elbow of partner instead of on robin’s shoulder) was mentioned.
In this discussion, much has been said about men who don’t want to do
ballroom hold with other men, but what nobody has mentioned yet is the
scads of women (both straight and queer) who have long been
uncomfortable dancing ballroom swing with men (or often just with
particular men). _I am intrigued by this modified ballroom swing idea
because it might solve many problems at once_.
I have two simultaneous (and conflicting) emotional responses to men
uncomfortable swinging with other men:
The ungenerous one is: "As a lesbian I had to get over my discomfort
swinging with you in order to participate in the joy of contra. If I
can do it, you can do it." But more importantly (and more generously):
_We’d like everyone to be as comfortable at contra dances as is
reasonably feasible_. To that end, I am very interested in this idea
of the modified ballroom hold. It might solve MANY different problems.
Here are a few that come to mind:
1. The enforced intimacy problem: this is not just a problem with
straight men being uncomfortable swinging with other men. There is a
lot of forced intimacy in the ballroom hold. Maybe that intimacy is
not the best thing to force on _anyone_?. Modified ballroom swing
would help with the problem of not wanting enforced closeness/intimacy
with others for all kinds of reasons: keeping distance from the
lecherous dancer who uses the ballroom hold as an excuse for unwanted
intimacy; but also simply to provide a bit of space for folks who
simply aren’t comfortable being that close to ANYBODY. I recently
struck up a conversation with a new dancer who was leaving early
(because we need to know why we’re losing potential dancers) and she
said “It just feels too intimate.” She didn’t say too intimate
swinging with men or with women. Just “too intimate” and I got the
definite feeling that it was the enforced close hold (with /everyone/)
that was difficult for her. I wonder if we would have lost her if we
used the modified ballroom swing (hand above elbow instead of on
shoulder).
2. There are other difficulties with the ballroom hold: sometimes
there is simply not enough room: short arms or large girth can make it
difficult to reach the back of the shoulder of the other partner at
times, and this leaves the Lark in the uncomfortable/dangerous
position of “where do I put my hand now?” While trying to avoid the
“accidental side boob graze” issue.
3. Speaking of which, is nobody else out there having trouble with
this “side boob graze” problem with the ballroom hold? I’m a lesbian
who dances the Lark role because of knee and hip issues. At least
once/evening when moving into or out of the ballroom hold I
accidentally graze the side of my partner’s breast. If I were straight
I wouldn’t worry about it. But as a lesbian my mind always leaps to
“what if she thinks I did that on purpose?” _Do straight men not also
have this problem?? Why is nobody talking about this??_ If the robin
is female-presenting, the back of the robin’s shoulder is dangerously
close to the side of her breast. Which means (a) it’s easy for a
sleaze to cop a feel and pass it off as an accident, and (b) it’s easy
for a lesbian or straight man to truly accidentally graze and then
worry that they’ll be _perceived _as a sleaze. The elbow hold would
solve both of these problems.
4. The robin clamping down their arm problem: Larks, have you ever
danced with a robin who clamps down their arm on your wrist during the
swing? Again, elbow hold would solve this.
5. The problem of robins dancing backwards when swinging: I have never
danced the modified ballroom hold, but I’d like to know from folks who
do: does it solve the problem of many robins feeling like they need to
dance backwards when swinging? On the occasions when I do dance robin
(usually because I’m pairing with a newbie who is dancing lark) I
often find myself skittering backwards in the swing, instead of both
of us walking/dancing forward. I’m not experienced enough as a robin
to fully understand this phenomenon, but I think it has to do with the
closeness and rigidity of some Larks’ hold in the ballroom swing.
Question for folks who have used the elbow hold: does this hold solve
this problem and allow the robin to dance forward instead of backward
in the swing?
I am particularly interested in this issue because I am about to move
from Toronto (where the ballroom hold is firmly established) to an
island off the coast of Vancouver (Bowen Island) where, if I want to
continue to dance, I will have to start my own contra dance. This
conversation has made me wonder whether I should start that group with
the modified ballroom hold to solve many of these problems. _I’d love
to hear from others who have used this swing about the pros and cons
_(if any) and any other advice you’d have for someone starting a dance
using this swing hold.
Thanks!!
Becky Liddle
(Note: my email is changing from beckyliddle(a)bell.net
<mailto:beckyliddle@bell.net> to becky.liddle(a)icloud.com
<mailto:becky.liddle@icloud.com> )
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4:34 p.m.
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold
feels more "intimate" than other holds?
Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our minds
with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?
Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed
arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me,
though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - though I
wouldn't say the default)
Is it something else?
Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to an
alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?
In dance,
Julian Blechner
He/him
Western Mass
On Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 11:20 AM Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hello!
I was the one who suggested the modified ballroom swing, and I'm going to
respond here to both some of Becky and Jerome's and John's questions/
thoughts.
Women's discomfort in conventional ballroom hold
I did actually mention in my initial email that as a cisgender woman, I
have really appreciated the additional space that the modified ballroom
hold creates between me and the men I dance with.
Actually as a not particularly touchy-feely human being, I appreciate the
additional space it creates between me and anyone I dance with!
But I have especially appreciated the space between me and any male
partner.
Interestingly, I didn't think about it too much in the past. I was fairly
comfortable swinging with anyone, and our group has a good vibe so there
isn't much creepiness. I felt fine with the conventional ballroom swing.
But -- now that we have implemented the modified ballroom hold as the
standard with all neighbours and also as the standard with a partner if you
don't discuss otherwise, it's been *very* interesting....
I've sometimes swung with a male partner who decides to use conventional
ballroom without discussing it --and I suddenly feel VERY claustrophobic
about it!
I will usually say to them when I get a chance - "let's remember to use
the elbow-hold now!" - and as soon as they do, I instantly breath a sigh
of relief. It just feels way more comfortable to me. Without exception.
-- (and to give these fellows who launch right into conventional ballroom
hold the benefit of the doubt- they tend to be our longest-term dancers and
it I think in a lot of cases they just have a hard time re-programming - we
have only been doing the modified ballroom for about 6 months, and not
everyone comes to every dance. I'm giving them time to get used to the new
normal. That said, I am pretty sure there are few men who think, "oh, she
is a caller, she is an experienced dancer, she will be happy to swing
closely with me!" . I have this idea because a few of them seem to roll
their eyes a bit when I remind them that I prefer to dance with the new
modified hold :D Incidentally this has never happened with a female
partner....)...
Inadvertent "boob touching"
This is not something I have ever heard of before in the swing, but
someone did bring it up a few dances ago when we tried to use a modified,
more role-symmetrical hold for the courtesy turn, with both hands crossed
in front. One of our longtime and larger-busted female dancers told me
that this was *not* going to work, due to all the inadvertent boob touching
that happened to her when her partners were getting into position. So we
canned that idea! :) And it made me more aware of this issue as something
to watch out for.
Thanks for drawing attention to it as a potential aspect of the swing.
Robins arm-clamping and robins feeling like they have to skitter backwards
I haven't consciously encountered either of these issues but look forward
to hearing more.
(Jerome's point) - Signalling which flavour of swing to use?
So in our community, we have just made it clear that this modified
ballroom hold is now the new standard.
So, that means for every neighbour you meet, this is how you swing with
them.
And with your partner, this is what is expected --unless the two of you
have a consensual conversation and decide on something else.
(and sometimes for fun we do show partway through the dance, some other
swing holds that partners may like to experiment with, if they are
comfortable with each other. John S's page has been very helpful in this
regard!! Thank you John :) )
Of course, if two neighbours meet each other in the line and they know
each other well (e.g. maybe they are spouses!), they may spontaneously do
something else becauuse they know each other well enough to feel that out
on the spot. But we make it very clear that you should not assume that
your neighbour or partner wants to do something other than the standard
hold, unless you have an explicit discussion. Since that's not really
feasible with neighbours, it means that neighbours in almost all cases are
going to swing with the modified ballroom and that is that :)
Regarding John's request to get a visual of this hold
- i'll be curious if anyone else on this list is using this new hold, or
if it is just us in Halifax.
I can't even remember now how we came up with the idea. It may have been
through our own experimenting. A bunch of us have been chatting after some
dances about how we can make our figures as gender-neutral/symmetrical as
possible, and we have been trying out all sorts of different swing holds to
see what might work best for us. Sometimes we start with one of John's
examples and then see how it might be modified if it feels too close. As
I suggested above, we've also been trying to figure out more
symmetrical-hold courtesy-turn alternatives (for robins and larks chains)
but so far haven't found a satisfactory one.
(feel free to start a new thread if you have any ideas!).
John - if nobody else has a photo or video of the hold we're using in
Halifax, I will try to remember to get one for you at our April dance!
writing myself a note, now...
best,
Kat K
Halifax NS Canada
John Sweeney <john(a)modernjive.com> <john(a)modernjive.com>
Please could someone post a picture or video of the modified
ballroom hold that is being discussed? Or send it to me and I will add it
to my Web site with a link so that people can see it.
Thanks.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802
940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
Jerome Grisanti via Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 11:36 AM
One challenge is implementation: if the whole group learned the same swing
position, symmetrical or asymmetrical, from scratch, your proposal would
not be a problem unless/until your dancers visited other dances — and even
then. perhaps not a big issue.
In a community with mixed crowds (both experienced and newcomers), dancers
would need to signal which flavor of swing they wanted. And what about
folks with two different preferences meeting for a neighbor swing?
So developing those signals, and defaults, would be my focus. As for the
swing itself, I believe John Sweeny or one of the other UK members of the
list has a video catalog of various swings on a website. Good teaching tips
too.
Jerome
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Becky Liddle via Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 11:16 AM
In the discussion about some men being uncomfortable doing ballroom dance
hold swing with other men, the modified ballroom hold (hand above elbow of
partner instead of on robin’s shoulder) was mentioned.
In this discussion, much has been said about men who don’t want to do
ballroom hold with other men, but what nobody has mentioned yet is the
scads of women (both straight and queer) who have long been uncomfortable
dancing ballroom swing with men (or often just with particular men). *I
am intrigued by this modified ballroom swing idea because it might solve
many problems at once*.
I have two simultaneous (and conflicting) emotional responses to men
uncomfortable swinging with other men:
The ungenerous one is: "As a lesbian I had to get over my discomfort
swinging with you in order to participate in the joy of contra. If I can do
it, you can do it." But more importantly (and more generously): *We’d
like everyone to be as comfortable at contra dances as is reasonably
feasible*. To that end, I am very interested in this idea of the modified
ballroom hold. It might solve MANY different problems. Here are a few that
come to mind:
1. The enforced intimacy problem: this is not just a problem with straight
men being uncomfortable swinging with other men. There is a lot of forced
intimacy in the ballroom hold. Maybe that intimacy is not the best thing to
force on *anyone*?. Modified ballroom swing would help with the problem
of not wanting enforced closeness/intimacy with others for all kinds of
reasons: keeping distance from the lecherous dancer who uses the ballroom
hold as an excuse for unwanted intimacy; but also simply to provide a bit
of space for folks who simply aren’t comfortable being that close to
ANYBODY. I recently struck up a conversation with a new dancer who was
leaving early (because we need to know why we’re losing potential dancers)
and she said “It just feels too intimate.” She didn’t say too intimate
swinging with men or with women. Just “too intimate” and I got the definite
feeling that it was the enforced close hold (with *everyone*) that was
difficult for her. I wonder if we would have lost her if we used the
modified ballroom swing (hand above elbow instead of on shoulder).
2. There are other difficulties with the ballroom hold: sometimes there is
simply not enough room: short arms or large girth can make it difficult to
reach the back of the shoulder of the other partner at times, and this
leaves the Lark in the uncomfortable/dangerous position of “where do I put
my hand now?” While trying to avoid the “accidental side boob graze” issue.
3. Speaking of which, is nobody else out there having trouble with this
“side boob graze” problem with the ballroom hold? I’m a lesbian who dances
the Lark role because of knee and hip issues. At least once/evening when
moving into or out of the ballroom hold I accidentally graze the side of my
partner’s breast. If I were straight I wouldn’t worry about it. But as a
lesbian my mind always leaps to “what if she thinks I did that on purpose?” *Do
straight men not also have this problem?? Why is nobody talking about
this??* If the robin is female-presenting, the back of the robin’s
shoulder is dangerously close to the side of her breast. Which means (a)
it’s easy for a sleaze to cop a feel and pass it off as an accident, and
(b) it’s easy for a lesbian or straight man to truly accidentally graze and
then worry that they’ll be *perceived *as a sleaze. The elbow hold would
solve both of these problems.
4. The robin clamping down their arm problem: Larks, have you ever danced
with a robin who clamps down their arm on your wrist during the swing?
Again, elbow hold would solve this.
5. The problem of robins dancing backwards when swinging: I have never
danced the modified ballroom hold, but I’d like to know from folks who do:
does it solve the problem of many robins feeling like they need to dance
backwards when swinging? On the occasions when I do dance robin (usually
because I’m pairing with a newbie who is dancing lark) I often find myself
skittering backwards in the swing, instead of both of us walking/dancing
forward. I’m not experienced enough as a robin to fully understand this
phenomenon, but I think it has to do with the closeness and rigidity of
some Larks’ hold in the ballroom swing. Question for folks who have used
the elbow hold: does this hold solve this problem and allow the robin to
dance forward instead of backward in the swing?
I am particularly interested in this issue because I am about to move from
Toronto (where the ballroom hold is firmly established) to an island off
the coast of Vancouver (Bowen Island) where, if I want to continue to
dance, I will have to start my own contra dance. This conversation has made
me wonder whether I should start that group with the modified ballroom hold
to solve many of these problems. *I’d love to hear from others who have
used this swing about the pros and cons *(if any) and any other advice
you’d have for someone starting a dance using this swing hold.
Thanks!!
Becky Liddle
(Note: my email is changing from beckyliddle(a)bell.net to
becky.liddle(a)icloud.com )
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9:20 p.m.
New subject: Fwd: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and info
For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and lack of physical air
space between them. The huge difference between a swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to
dance a waltz or a swing dance with someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing
to swing with EVERY opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to
dance. That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying yes to one
person.
As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group a few years ago, MANY
women in our dance group chose their contra dance line specifically to avoid having to
swing with him. The most important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of
conduct which we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would
not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been women
who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance not KNOWING whether
there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite a lot to expect them to do a
ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom
hold might make contra feel safer, especially for new dancers.
I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the difference.
Becky
On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold feels more
"intimate" than other holds?
14 Mar
14 Mar
6:23 a.m.
New subject: Fwd: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and info
Hi Kat,
Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When you mentioned
Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a Foreshortened Hold in my video and
brings you closer together rather than further apart.
I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras and love it. I was
surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra dance at The Flurry and realised
that nobody else was using it!
We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it really worked.
With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough connection to have a
really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt that my hand might slide down.
With my right arm on top Karen felt that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I
wasn't gripping - it was just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest problem is that people
are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! People misunderstand
and lean back or sideways. If people control their own weight then all the connection has
to do is counter centrifugal force and that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the spot BY THEMSELVES.
Then when they connect they keep their own balance and weight.
I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive Strain Injury from
another style of dance that is taught badly, and then lots of Aerials:
https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I shouldn't have started
doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford to let people damage my
shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at high speeds with no problem. Whenever
someone leans back or sideways I just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that
they have to take their own weight or fall over.
Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will find it is much less
strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to do it without any
problem. It is just a different feel and takes some getting used to.
Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh Swing
(http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you could always try the Forearm
Swing instead (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same principle, but
further apart so no bodily contact.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
16 Mar
16 Mar
12:25 p.m.
New subject: Fwd: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and info
Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for
spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what
I think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is
that it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful.
The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: you
say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting
with (visual at
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
)
-- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that are
holding just above the elbow.
But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his left
hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use in
this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right hand.)
Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended:
https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
Startsat 3:18.
Thoughts?
Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold,
that in this video referenced by Allan -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 or in the photo I shared above via Dropbox,
that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's arm?
Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of the two
dancing partners?
(for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm
still be above the Lark's?
Thanks all!
Kat K in Halifax
John Sweeney via Contra Callers
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
Hi Kat,
Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When
you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a
Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather
than further apart.
I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras and
love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra
dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it!
We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it
really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be
enough connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my
arm. I felt that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top
Karen felt that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't
gripping - it was just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest
problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your
weight! People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people
control their own weight then all the connection has to do is counter
centrifugal force and that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the
spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance
and weight.
I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive
Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and
then lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT
- maybe I shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway,
I can't afford to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner
I can Swing at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans
back or sideways I just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection
so that they have to take their own weight or fall over.
Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will find
it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to do
it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some
getting used to.
Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh
Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you
could always try the Forearm Swing instead
(http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same
principle, but further apart so no bodily contact.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
07802 940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
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becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and
lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a
swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance
with someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing
with EVERY opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you
asked to dance. That’s a much bigger commitment to physical
contact/intimacy than saying yes to one person.
As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group a
few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance
line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most
important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct
which we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear
he would not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and
others, but it’s always been women who have said this to me over the
years), when they come to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a
letch in the line, it is asking quite a lot to expect them to do a
ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I am wondering whether the
modified ballroom hold might make contra feel safer, especially for
new dancers.
I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the difference.
Becky
On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner
<juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold
feels more "intimate" than other holds?
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Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold
feels more "intimate" than other holds?
Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our
minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?
Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer,
crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own
intimacy to me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit
more space - though I wouldn't say the default)
Is it something else?
Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to
an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?
In dance,
Julian Blechner
He/him
Western Mass
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12:59 p.m.
New subject: Fwd: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and info
Hi Kat,
You asked why the elbow-hold in your Modified Ballroom-Hold wasn’t as good
as the elbow-hold in a standard Swing.
I think that when the left-hand person’s right hand is on the right-hand
person’s shoulder blade and you have good connection, then what you do with the other arms
can be anything. Using those other arms, one person holding the other’s elbow gives
slightly more connection, and the added benefits of bringing the dancers’ shoulders more
parallel (symmetry is great for a smooth, gentle (but fast!) counter-balanced Swing), and,
by being closer together, gives a faster Swing.
When, instead, those hands are doing the pointy stuff (which doesn’t provide
a lot of good connection), then the elbow hold with the other arms doesn’t give enough
connection; and when we tried to achieve the connection we felt it was slightly awkward
and uncomfortable.
That is my feeling anyway.
Another challenge is that the standard Ballroom-Hold position is used for
other moves as well, such as Polkaing around a Square, or doing a Swing & Change to
progress. I don’t think that the Modified version would work as well for those type of
moves, and I wouldn’t want to teach the average dancers multiple versions. Maybe that
isn’t a problem for you, if you never do dances with moves like that.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
4:17 p.m.
I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above the lark’s in the
modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that having that rule/understanding
might make it easier for dancers to make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom
because the robin’s arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand
is typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things like a
balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm orientations the same
in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if I were just learning this swing.
Becky
On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via
Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for spacing -- and I'm
going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I think Becky found interesting
about the variation we're working on is that it retains the "pointy hands",
which can be useful.
The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: you say when you tried
the swing variation our group has been experimenting with (visual at
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
)
<https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0>
-- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that are holding just above
the elbow.
But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his left hand my right
hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use in this video of yours - (but in
your case, your left hand and her right hand.)
Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended:
https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
Starts at 3:18.
Thoughts?
Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold, that in this video
referenced by Allan -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8
<https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in the photo I
shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's
arm?
Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of the two
dancing partners?
(for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm
still be above the Lark's?
Thanks all!
Kat K in Halifax
John Sweeney via Contra Callers
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
Hi Kat,
Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When you mentioned
Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a Foreshortened Hold in my video and
brings you closer together rather than further apart.
I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras and love it. I was
surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra dance at The Flurry and realised
that nobody else was using it!
We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it really worked.
With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough connection to have a
really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt that my hand might slide down. With
my right arm on top Karen felt that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I
wasn't gripping - it was just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest problem is that people
are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! People misunderstand
and lean back or sideways. If people control their own weight then all the connection has
to do is counter centrifugal force and that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the spot BY THEMSELVES.
Then when they connect they keep their own balance and weight.
I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive Strain Injury from
another style of dance that is taught badly, and then lots of Aerials:
https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I shouldn't have started
doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford to let people damage my shoulders.
With a good partner I can Swing at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans
back or sideways I just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to
take their own weight or fall over.
Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will find it is much less
strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to do it without any
problem. It is just a different feel and takes some getting used to.
Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh Swing
(http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you could always try the Forearm
Swing instead (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same principle, but
further apart so no bodily contact.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com <mailto:john@modernjive.com>
01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk <http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/> for Dancing in Kent
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becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and lack of physical air
space between them. The huge difference between a swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to
dance a waltz or a swing dance with someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing
to swing with EVERY opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to
dance. That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying yes to one
person.
As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group a few years ago,
MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance line specifically to avoid having
to swing with him. The most important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of
conduct which we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would
not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been women
who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance not KNOWING whether
there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite a lot to expect them to do a
ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom
hold might make contra feel safer, especially for new dancers.
I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the difference.
Becky
On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com>
<mailto:juliancallsdances@gmail.com> wrote:
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold feels more
"intimate" than other holds?
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Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold feels more
"intimate" than other holds?
Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our minds with couples
dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?
Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed arms has my hands
bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me, though sometimes barrel holds can be
done with a bit more space - though I wouldn't say the default)
Is it something else?
Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to an alternate
swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?
In dance,
Julian Blechner
He/him
Western Mass
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21 Mar
21 Mar
12:52 p.m.
At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about this
email thread and observations.
Short and simple:
A "barrel hold" swing:
- Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
- One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with his
left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we engaged
in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided things
in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer.
In dance,
-Julian Blechner
On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I can’t answer whether the robin's would always
HAVE to go above the
lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that
having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the
transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is
always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is
typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things
like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm
orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if
I were just learning this swing.
Becky
On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for
spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I
think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that
it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful.
The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: you say
when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting with
(visual at
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
)
<https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0>
-- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that are
holding just above the elbow.
But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his left
hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use in
this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right hand.)
Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended:
https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
Starts at 3:18.
Thoughts?
Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold, that
in this video referenced by Allan -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8
<https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in the photo I
shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's
arm?
Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of the two
dancing partners?
(for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm
still be above the Lark's?
Thanks all!
Kat K in Halifax
John Sweeney via Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
Hi Kat,
Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When you
mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a Foreshortened
Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than further apart.
I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras and
love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra dance
at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it!
We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it really
worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough
connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt
that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it
was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just
awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest problem
is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! People
misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own weight
then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and that it
not a lot inless you spin really fast.
I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the spot
BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and
weight.
I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive
Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and then
lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe
I shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't
afford to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing
at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I
just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take
their own weight or fall over.
Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will find it
is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to do it
without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some getting
used to.
Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh Swing (
http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you could always
try the Forearm Swing instead (
http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same principle,
but further apart so no bodily contact.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802
940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
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becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and lack of
physical air space between them. The huge difference between a swing in
contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with someone,
is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY
opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance.
That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying
yes to one person.
As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group a few
years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance line
specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most important
intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which we used
to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would not agree
to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been
women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance
not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite
a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I
am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra feel
safer, especially for new dancers.
I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the difference.
Becky
On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com>
<juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold
feels more "intimate" than other holds?
_______________________________________________
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Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold
feels more "intimate" than other holds?
Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our minds
with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?
Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed
arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me,
though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - though I
wouldn't say the default)
Is it something else?
Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to an
alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?
In dance,
Julian Blechner
He/him
Western Mass
_______________________________________________
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10:15 p.m.
I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way that
indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I have
to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs (I'm
pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if one or
both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if you and
your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than
ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role (using
the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), we'd
almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is
symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around
the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm,
bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around
each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never
happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm
not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a
particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first
and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we
swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an
item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
change...
In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when they're
happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the extreme
to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and looks of
disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't returned to the
dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though it was pretty
great in other ways.
The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position where
the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same place
where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually teach it
this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible, because
their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same space, which,
well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside mine, when they
try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, eliminating any
chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain before I can
either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my back, or pull
my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the traditional ballroom
hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop teaching this hold, as it
usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt the lark.
One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no
communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the
lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire
length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to
provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they
are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light
enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more
connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only
pull forward.
--jh--
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I
thought about this
email thread and observations.
Short and simple:
A "barrel hold" swing:
- Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
- One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with his
left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we engaged
in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided things
in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer.
In dance,
-Julian Blechner
On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I can’t answer whether the robin's would
always HAVE to go above the
lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that
having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the
transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is
always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is
typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things
like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm
orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if
I were just learning this swing.
Becky
On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for
spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I
think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that
it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful.
The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: you
say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting
with (visual at
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
)
<https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0>
-- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that are
holding just above the elbow.
But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his left
hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use in
this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right hand.)
Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended:
https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
Starts at 3:18.
Thoughts?
Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold,
that in this video referenced by Allan -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8
<https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in the photo I
shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's
arm?
Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of the two
dancing partners?
(for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm
still be above the Lark's?
Thanks all!
Kat K in Halifax
John Sweeney via Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
Hi Kat,
Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When you
mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a Foreshortened
Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than further apart.
I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras and
love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra dance
at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it!
We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it really
worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough
connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt
that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it
was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just
awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest problem
is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! People
misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own weight
then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and that it
not a lot inless you spin really fast.
I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the spot
BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and
weight.
I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive
Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and then
lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT -
maybe I shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't
afford to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing
at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I
just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take
their own weight or fall over.
Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will find it
is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to do it
without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some getting
used to.
Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh Swing (
http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you could
always try the Forearm Swing instead (
http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same principle,
but further apart so no bodily contact.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802
940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to
contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and lack
of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a swing in
contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with someone,
is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY
opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance.
That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying
yes to one person.
As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group a
few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance line
specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most important
intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which we used
to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would not agree
to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been
women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance
not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite
a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I
am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra feel
safer, especially for new dancers.
I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the difference.
Becky
On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner
<juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold
feels more "intimate" than other holds?
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to
contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold
feels more "intimate" than other holds?
Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our minds
with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?
Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed
arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me,
though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - though I
wouldn't say the default)
Is it something else?
Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to an
alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?
In dance,
Julian Blechner
He/him
Western Mass
_______________________________________________
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10:33 p.m.
"At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role
actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm."
When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially doing
it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I encountered. I
remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I ran into a few
guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the standard ballroom
hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were dancing the lady's
role in the standard way?
Jeff
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have
reacted in a way that
indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I have
to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs (I'm
pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if one or
both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if you and
your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than
ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role (using
the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), we'd
almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is
symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around
the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm,
bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around
each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never
happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm
not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a
particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first
and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we
swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an
item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
change...
In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when they're
happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the extreme
to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and looks of
disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't returned to the
dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though it was pretty
great in other ways.
The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position where
the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same place
where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually teach it
this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible, because
their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same space, which,
well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside mine, when they
try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, eliminating any
chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain before I can
either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my back, or pull
my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the traditional ballroom
hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop teaching this hold, as it
usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt the lark.
One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no
communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the
lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire
length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to
provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they
are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light
enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more
connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only
pull forward.
--jh--
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
At the last couple of dances in the last few
days, I thought about this
email thread and observations.
Short and simple:
A "barrel hold" swing:
- Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
- One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with his
left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we engaged
in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided things
in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer.
In dance,
-Julian Blechner
On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________
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I can’t answer whether the robin's would
always HAVE to go above the
lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that
having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the
transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is
always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is
typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things
like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm
orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if
I were just learning this swing.
Becky
On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for
spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I
think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that
it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful.
The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: you
say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting
with (visual at
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
)
<https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0>
-- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that are
holding just above the elbow.
But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his left
hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use in
this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right hand.)
Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended:
https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
Starts at 3:18.
Thoughts?
Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold,
that in this video referenced by Allan -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8
<https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in the photo I
shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's
arm?
Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of the two
dancing partners?
(for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm
still be above the Lark's?
Thanks all!
Kat K in Halifax
John Sweeney via Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
Hi Kat,
Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When you
mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a Foreshortened
Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than further apart.
I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras and
love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra dance
at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it!
We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it
really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough
connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt
that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it
was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just
awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest problem
is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! People
misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own weight
then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and that it
not a lot inless you spin really fast.
I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the spot
BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and
weight.
I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive
Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and then
lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT -
maybe I shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't
afford to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing
at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I
just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take
their own weight or fall over.
Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will find
it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to do
it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some getting
used to.
Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh Swing
(http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you could
always try the Forearm Swing instead (
http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same principle,
but further apart so no bodily contact.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802
940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
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becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and lack
of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a swing in
contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with someone,
is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY
opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance.
That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying
yes to one person.
As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group a
few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance line
specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most important
intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which we used
to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would not agree
to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been
women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance
not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite
a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I
am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra feel
safer, especially for new dancers.
I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the
difference.
Becky
On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner
<juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold
feels more "intimate" than other holds?
_______________________________________________
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Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold
feels more "intimate" than other holds?
Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our minds
with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?
Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed
arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me,
though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - though I
wouldn't say the default)
Is it something else?
Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to
an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?
In dance,
Julian Blechner
He/him
Western Mass
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10:38 p.m.
Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the
switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end
on
(assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left
arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is the
"pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell
myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory
just takes over
and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅.
I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles
without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the
traditional ballroom figure.
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
"At the time, it almost never happened that the
one in the lady's role
actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm."
When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially doing
it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I encountered. I
remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I ran into a few
guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the standard ballroom
hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were dancing the lady's
role in the standard way?
Jeff
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners
have reacted in a way
that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I
have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs
(I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if
one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if
you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than
ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role
(using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment),
we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is
symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around
the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm,
bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around
each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never
happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm
not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a
particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first
and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we
swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an
item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
change...
In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when
they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the
extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and
looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't
returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though
it was pretty great in other ways.
The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position
where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same
place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually
teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible,
because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same
space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside
mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow,
eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain
before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my
back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the
traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop
teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt
the lark.
One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no
communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the
lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire
length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to
provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they
are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light
enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more
connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only
pull forward.
--jh--
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________
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At the last couple of dances in the last few
days, I thought about this
email thread and observations.
Short and simple:
A "barrel hold" swing:
- Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
- One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with
his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we
engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided
things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer.
In dance,
-Julian Blechner
On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
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I can’t answer whether the robin's would
always HAVE to go above the
lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that
having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the
transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is
always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is
typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things
like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm
orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if
I were just learning this swing.
Becky
On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for
spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I
think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that
it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful.
The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: you
say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting
with (visual at
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
)
<https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0>
-- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that are
holding just above the elbow.
But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his
left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use
in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right
hand.)
Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended:
https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
Starts at 3:18.
Thoughts?
Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold,
that in this video referenced by Allan -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8
<https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in the photo I
shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's
arm?
Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of the two
dancing partners?
(for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm
still be above the Lark's?
Thanks all!
Kat K in Halifax
John Sweeney via Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
Hi Kat,
Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When
you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a
Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than
further apart.
I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras and
love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra dance
at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it!
We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it
really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough
connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt
that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it
was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just
awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest
problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your
weight!
People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own
weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and
that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the
spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and
weight.
I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive
Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and then
lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT -
maybe I shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't
afford to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing
at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I
just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take
their own weight or fall over.
Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will find
it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to do
it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some getting
used to.
Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh
Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you
could always try the Forearm Swing instead (
http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same
principle, but further apart so no bodily contact.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
07802 940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
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becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and lack
of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a swing in
contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with someone,
is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY
opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance.
That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying
yes to one person.
As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group a
few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance line
specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most important
intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which we used
to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would not agree
to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been
women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance
not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite
a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I
am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra feel
safer, especially for new dancers.
I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the
difference.
Becky
On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner
<juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold
feels more "intimate" than other holds?
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Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold
feels more "intimate" than other holds?
Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our minds
with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?
Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed
arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me,
though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - though I
wouldn't say the default)
Is it something else?
Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to
an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?
In dance,
Julian Blechner
He/him
Western Mass
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22 Mar
22 Mar
9:20 a.m.
JJ,
I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry of a
ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing.
Joe,
I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having elbows
occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture).
That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that
everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our goal
for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as
such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers -
can anticipate every need or difference.
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcgj95(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps
me to "flip the
switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end
on
(assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left
arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is the
"pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously
tell
myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory
just takes over
and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅.
I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles
without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the
traditional ballroom figure.
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
"At the time, it almost never happened that
the one in the lady's role
actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm."
When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially
doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I
encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I
ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the
standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were
dancing the lady's role in the standard way?
Jeff
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners
have reacted in a way
that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I
have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs
(I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if
one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if
you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than
ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role
(using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment),
we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is
symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around
the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm,
bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around
each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never
happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm
not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a
particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first
and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we
swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an
item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
change...
In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when
they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the
extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and
looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't
returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though
it was pretty great in other ways.
The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position
where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same
place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually
teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible,
because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same
space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside
mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow,
eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain
before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my
back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the
traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop
teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt
the lark.
One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no
communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the
lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire
length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to
provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they
are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light
enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more
connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only
pull forward.
--jh--
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
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At the last couple of dances in the last few
days, I thought about this
email thread and observations.
Short and simple:
A "barrel hold" swing:
- Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
- One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with
his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we
engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided
things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer.
In dance,
-Julian Blechner
On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above the
> lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that
> having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the
> transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is
> always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is
> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things
> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm
> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if
> I were just learning this swing.
> Becky
>
> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for
> spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I
> think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that
> it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful.
>
> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: you
> say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting
> with (visual at
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
> )
>
<https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0>
> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that are
> holding just above the elbow.
>
> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his
> left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use
> in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right
> hand.)
> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended:
>
> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
> Starts at 3:18.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
>
> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold,
> that in this video referenced by Allan -
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8
<https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in the photo I
shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's
arm?
>
> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of the two
dancing partners?
> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's
arm still be above the Lark's?
>
> Thanks all!
> Kat K in Halifax
>
> John Sweeney via Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
> Hi Kat,
> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When
> you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a
> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than
> further apart.
>
> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras and
> love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra dance
> at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it!
>
> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it
> really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough
> connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt
> that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it
> was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just
> awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
>
> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest
> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your
weight!
> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own
> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and
> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
>
> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the
> spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and
> weight.
>
> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive
> Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and then
> lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT -
> maybe I shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't
> afford to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing
> at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I
> just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take
> their own weight or fall over.
>
> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will find
> it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
>
> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to do
> it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some getting
> used to.
>
> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh
> Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you
> could always try the Forearm Swing instead (
> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same
> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact.
>
> Happy dancing,
> John
>
> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
> 07802 940 574
> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>
>
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> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and
> lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a
> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with
> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY
> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance.
> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying
> yes to one person.
>
> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group a
> few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance line
> specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most important
> intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which we used
> to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would not agree
> to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been
> women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance
> not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite
> a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I
> am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra feel
> safer, especially for new dancers.
>
> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the
> difference.
>
> Becky
>
>
> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner
> <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold
> feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>
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> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold
> feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>
> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our
> minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?
>
> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer,
> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to
> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space -
> though I wouldn't say the default)
>
> Is it something else?
>
> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to
> an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?
>
> In dance,
> Julian Blechner
> He/him
> Western Mass
>
>
>
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>
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>
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24 Mar
24 Mar
1:13 p.m.
Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the lark's, but
an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years now,
where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on the
lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I know
at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie
workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide
equal support in the swing.
While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are not
grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this
without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent
backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the
right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much
eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by
pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially
refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow,
so it kills any enjoyment in that swing.
Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major support
in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff described,
or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top are much
better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their lark's arm
can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold (robin's arm
on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder.
--jh--
On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
JJ,
I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry of a
ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing.
Joe,
I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having elbows
occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture).
That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that
everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our goal
for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as
such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers -
can anticipate every need or difference.
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcgj95(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the
> switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to"
end on
> (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left
> arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is
the
> "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously
tell
> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle
memory just takes over
> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅.
>
> I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles
> without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the
> traditional ballroom figure.
>
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role
>> actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm."
>>
>> When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially
>> doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I
>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I
>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the
>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were
>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way?
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way
>>> that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I
>>> have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs
>>> (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact
if
>>> one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if
>>> you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable
than
>>> ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
>>>
>>> In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role
>>> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment),
>>> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing",
which is
>>> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around
>>> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right
arm,
>>> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around
>>> each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never
>>> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady.
I'm
>>> not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a
>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first
>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we
>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an
>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
>>> change...
>>>
>>> In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when
>>> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable
in the
>>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and
>>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't
>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though
>>> it was pretty great in other ways.
>>>
>>> The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position
>>> where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same
>>> place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually
>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's
terrible,
>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same
>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside
>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow,
>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain
>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my
>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the
>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop
>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can
hurt
>>> the lark.
>>>
>>> One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no
>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the
>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the
entire
>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to
>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they
>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also
light
>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for
more
>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though.
Only
>>> pull forward.
>>>
>>> --jh--
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about
>>>> this email thread and observations.
>>>>
>>>> Short and simple:
>>>> A "barrel hold" swing:
>>>> - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
>>>> - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with
>>>> his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position.
As we
>>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it
guided
>>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced
dancer.
>>>>
>>>> In dance,
>>>> -Julian Blechner
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers <
>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above
the
>>>>> lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think
that
>>>>> having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to
make the
>>>>> transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm
is
>>>>> always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is
>>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in
things
>>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the
hand/arm
>>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to
me if
>>>>> I were just learning this swing.
>>>>> Becky
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers
<
>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for
>>>>> spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance!
Though what I
>>>>> think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working
on is that
>>>>> it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful.
>>>>>
>>>>> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message:
>>>>> you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been
experimenting
>>>>> with (visual at
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
>>>>> )
>>>>>
<https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0>
>>>>> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that
>>>>> are holding just above the elbow.
>>>>>
>>>>> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his
>>>>> left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you
use
>>>>> in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her
right
>>>>> hand.)
>>>>> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
>>>>> Starts at 3:18.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the
hold,
>>>>> that in this video referenced by Allan -
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8
<https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in the photo I
shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's
arm?
>>>>>
>>>>> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative
height of the two dancing partners?
>>>>> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would
the Robin's arm still be above the Lark's?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks all!
>>>>> Kat K in Halifax
>>>>>
>>>>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers
>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
>>>>> Hi Kat,
>>>>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When
>>>>> you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a
>>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather
than
>>>>> further apart.
>>>>>
>>>>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras
>>>>> and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a
contra
>>>>> dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it!
>>>>>
>>>>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that
it
>>>>> really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to
be enough
>>>>> connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I
felt
>>>>> that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt
that it
>>>>> was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it
was just
>>>>> awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest
>>>>> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I
don't want your weight!
>>>>> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control
their own
>>>>> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force
and
>>>>> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
>>>>>
>>>>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the
>>>>> spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own
balance and
>>>>> weight.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much
Repetitive
>>>>> Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and
then
>>>>> lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT -
>>>>> maybe I shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!).
Anyway, I can't
>>>>> afford to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can
Swing
>>>>> at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or
sideways I
>>>>> just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have
to take
>>>>> their own weight or fall over.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will
>>>>> find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
>>>>>
>>>>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to
>>>>> do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes
some
>>>>> getting used to.
>>>>>
>>>>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh
>>>>> Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you
>>>>> could always try the Forearm Swing instead (
>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same
>>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact.
>>>>>
>>>>> Happy dancing,
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
&
>>>>> 07802 940 574
>>>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
>>>>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and
>>>>> lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between
a
>>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance
with
>>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with
EVERY
>>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to
dance.
>>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than
saying
>>>>> yes to one person.
>>>>>
>>>>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group
>>>>> a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra
dance
>>>>> line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most
important
>>>>> intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which we
used
>>>>> to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would not
agree
>>>>> to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always
been
>>>>> women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a
dance
>>>>> not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking
quite
>>>>> a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at
them. I
>>>>> am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra
feel
>>>>> safer, especially for new dancers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the
>>>>> difference.
>>>>>
>>>>> Becky
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner
>>>>> <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com>
<juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom
>>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom
>>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our
>>>>> minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our
culture?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer,
>>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own
intimacy to
>>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space
-
>>>>> though I wouldn't say the default)
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it something else?
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a
solution
>>>>> to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?
>>>>>
>>>>> In dance,
>>>>> Julian Blechner
>>>>> He/him
>>>>> Western Mass
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>
>
3:24 p.m.
Hi Joe,
You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I teach
it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a complaint
about it.
That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager robins
pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place."
That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting Robin's
hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, it's not
the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just workshopped
the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety of height
and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.)
The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the backs
of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when swinging.
One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on shoulders, unless
one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is fairly petite.
I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I have an
evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient support.
And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar.
That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing hold
works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? But I
might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what
you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand
correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.)
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on
top of the lark's, but
an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years now,
where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on the
lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I know
at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie
workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide
equal support in the swing.
While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are not
grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this
without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent
backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the
right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much
eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by
pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially
refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow,
so it kills any enjoyment in that swing.
Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major
support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff
described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top
are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their
lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold
(robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder.
--jh--
On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner <
juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> JJ,
>
> I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry of
> a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing.
>
> Joe,
>
> I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having elbows
> occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture).
> That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that
> everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our goal
> for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as
> such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers -
> can anticipate every need or difference.
>
> In dance,
> Julian Blechner
>
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcgj95(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the
>> switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed
to" end on
>> (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left
>> arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is
the
>> "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to
consciously tell
>> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle
memory just takes over
>> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅.
>>
>> I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles
>> without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the
>> traditional ballroom figure.
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's
role
>>> actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the
norm."
>>>
>>> When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially
>>> doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I
>>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I
>>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the
>>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were
>>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way?
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way
>>>> that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if
I
>>>> have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs
>>>> (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal
contact if
>>>> one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if
>>>> you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable
than
>>>> ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
>>>>
>>>> In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role
>>>> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a
moment),
>>>> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral
swing", which is
>>>> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are
around
>>>> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's
right arm,
>>>> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands
around
>>>> each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost
never
>>>> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady.
I'm
>>>> not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a
>>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it
first
>>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
>>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when
we
>>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were
an
>>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
>>>> change...
>>>>
>>>> In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when
>>>> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and
uncomfortable in the
>>>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and
>>>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't
>>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even
though
>>>> it was pretty great in other ways.
>>>>
>>>> The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position
>>>> where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the
same
>>>> place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people
actually
>>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's
terrible,
>>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the
same
>>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is
outside
>>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow,
>>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain
>>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from
my
>>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the
>>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop
>>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can
hurt
>>>> the lark.
>>>>
>>>> One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no
>>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than
the
>>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending
the entire
>>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder
to
>>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if
they
>>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also
light
>>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make
for more
>>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder,
though. Only
>>>> pull forward.
>>>>
>>>> --jh--
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about
>>>>> this email thread and observations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Short and simple:
>>>>> A "barrel hold" swing:
>>>>> - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
>>>>> - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark,
with
>>>>> his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type
position. As we
>>>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it
guided
>>>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced
dancer.
>>>>>
>>>>> In dance,
>>>>> -Julian Blechner
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
<
>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go
above the
>>>>>> lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively
think that
>>>>>> having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers
to make the
>>>>>> transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s
arm is
>>>>>> always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand
is
>>>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s
in things
>>>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the
hand/arm
>>>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive
to me if
>>>>>> I were just learning this swing.
>>>>>> Becky
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra
Callers <
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 -
for
>>>>>> spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance!
Though what I
>>>>>> think Becky found interesting about the variation we're
working on is that
>>>>>> it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your
message:
>>>>>> you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been
experimenting
>>>>>> with (visual at
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
>>>>>> )
>>>>>>
<https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0>
>>>>>> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms
that
>>>>>> are holding just above the elbow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with
his
>>>>>> left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold
you use
>>>>>> in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and
her right
>>>>>> hand.)
>>>>>> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I
intended:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
>>>>>> Starts at 3:18.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the
>>>>>> hold, that in this video referenced by Allan -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8
<https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in the photo I
shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's
arm?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative
height of the two dancing partners?
>>>>>> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin,
would the Robin's arm still be above the Lark's?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks all!
>>>>>> Kat K in Halifax
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers
>>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
>>>>>> Hi Kat,
>>>>>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo.
When
>>>>>> you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call
a
>>>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together
rather than
>>>>>> further apart.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty
Contras
>>>>>> and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a
contra
>>>>>> dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel
that it
>>>>>> really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem
to be enough
>>>>>> connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my
arm. I felt
>>>>>> that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen
felt that it
>>>>>> was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping -
it was just
>>>>>> awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest
>>>>>> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I
don't want your weight!
>>>>>> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control
their own
>>>>>> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal
force and
>>>>>> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on
the
>>>>>> spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own
balance and
>>>>>> weight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much
>>>>>> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is
taught badly,
>>>>>> and then lots of Aerials:
>>>>>> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I
>>>>>> shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I
can't afford
>>>>>> to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can
Swing at high
>>>>>> speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I
just slow
>>>>>> the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take
their own
>>>>>> weight or fall over.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you
will
>>>>>> find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem
to
>>>>>> do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes
some
>>>>>> getting used to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a
Ceilidh
>>>>>> Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) -
you
>>>>>> could always try the Forearm Swing instead (
>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same
>>>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Happy dancing,
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
&
>>>>>> 07802 940 574
>>>>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
>>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
>>>>>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies
and
>>>>>> lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference
between a
>>>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing
dance with
>>>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing
with EVERY
>>>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked
to dance.
>>>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than
saying
>>>>>> yes to one person.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our
group
>>>>>> a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra
dance
>>>>>> line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most
important
>>>>>> intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which
we used
>>>>>> to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would
not agree
>>>>>> to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s
always been
>>>>>> women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to
a dance
>>>>>> not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is
asking quite
>>>>>> a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at
them. I
>>>>>> am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra
feel
>>>>>> safer, especially for new dancers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the
>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Becky
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner
>>>>>> <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com>
<juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a
ballroom
>>>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
>>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a
ballroom
>>>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in
our
>>>>>> minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our
culture?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer,
>>>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own
intimacy to
>>>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more
space -
>>>>>> though I wouldn't say the default)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it something else?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a
solution
>>>>>> to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might
entail?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In dance,
>>>>>> Julian Blechner
>>>>>> He/him
>>>>>> Western Mass
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>
>>
7:19 p.m.
Hi all,
You should NOT need to support the other person in a Swing. If they are
pulling away, leaning back or leaning sideways then take away your connection until they
take responsibility for their own weight and balance.
The shoulder-blade connection is purely to counteract centrifugal force.
That is not normally a lot of force, so it shouldn’t make you tired. I Swing fast all
night and never get tired arms because, having damaged shoulders, I never let the other
person make me support them.
I completely agree that the Rightie shouldn’t try to reach the Leftie’s
shoulder-blade. See six reasons why at http://contrafusion.co.uk/LadysLeftHand.html
For good Swing technique please see
http://contrafusion.co.uk/Contra.html#swinging
Not everyone agrees with everything I say (but I think physics does!). :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
25 Mar
25 Mar
10:52 a.m.
Hi John,
I think people may be using two different things by "support" here? Julian
and I, along with a few others in this conversation, are using "support" to
mean a horizontal force, providing a counterbalancing force to resist the
centrifugal force that would otherwise send the two people off in
opposite directions. I think you're interpreting "support" to mean a
vertical force, which I agree you shouldn't need to provide.
If you're swinging quickly there really is quite a lot of centrifugal
force. Sometime I'd like to try getting some sort of scale involved to
figure out how much!
Jeff
On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 7:19 PM John Sweeney via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi all,
You should NOT need to support the other person in a Swing.
If they are pulling away, leaning back or leaning sideways then take away
your connection until they take responsibility for their own weight and
balance.
The shoulder-blade connection is purely to counteract
centrifugal force. That is not normally a lot of force, so it shouldn’t
make you tired. I Swing fast all night and never get tired arms because,
having damaged shoulders, I never let the other person make me support them.
I completely agree that the Rightie shouldn’t try to reach
the Leftie’s shoulder-blade. See six reasons why at
http://contrafusion.co.uk/LadysLeftHand.html
For good Swing technique please see
http://contrafusion.co.uk/Contra.html#swinging
Not everyone agrees with everything I say (but I think
physics does!). :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802
940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
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12:06 p.m.
Hi Jeff,
No, I mean horizontal force. People don’t keep their own balance or their
own weight, especially if they have been told to “give weight”! They lean back or
sideways or press back against the Leftie’s supporting right hand. That is what is tiring.
That pressure is often much greater than the centrifugal force.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
From: Jeff Kaufman <jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com>
Sent: 25 March 2024 14:52
To: John Sweeney <john(a)modernjive.com>
Cc: Shared Weight Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] Re: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and
info
Hi John,
I think people may be using two different things by "support" here? Julian and
I, along with a few others in this conversation, are using "support" to mean a
horizontal force, providing a counterbalancing force to resist the centrifugal force that
would otherwise send the two people off in opposite directions. I think you're
interpreting "support" to mean a vertical force, which I agree you shouldn't
need to provide.
If you're swinging quickly there really is quite a lot of centrifugal force. Sometime
I'd like to try getting some sort of scale involved to figure out how much!
Jeff
On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 7:19 PM John Sweeney via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> > wrote:
Hi all,
You should NOT need to support the other person in a Swing. If they are
pulling away, leaning back or leaning sideways then take away your connection until they
take responsibility for their own weight and balance.
The shoulder-blade connection is purely to counteract centrifugal force.
That is not normally a lot of force, so it shouldn’t make you tired. I Swing fast all
night and never get tired arms because, having damaged shoulders, I never let the other
person make me support them.
I completely agree that the Rightie shouldn’t try to reach the Leftie’s
shoulder-blade. See six reasons why at http://contrafusion.co.uk/LadysLeftHand.html
For good Swing technique please see
http://contrafusion.co.uk/Contra.html#swinging
Not everyone agrees with everything I say (but I think physics does!). :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com <mailto:john@modernjive.com>
01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
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26 Mar
26 Mar
11:28 a.m.
Hi Julian,
Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other persons
back, I agree with Joe.
The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things.
First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the length
of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long
arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on
top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK
with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space. (Also,
I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants their
hand on my back.)
Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are coming
in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in collision.
SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a changed angle
for one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening of the hold to
match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby pulling the swing
closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts the other person’s
arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a non-natural position,
which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and potentially harmful.
Neal Schlein
Librarian, MSLIS
On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi Joe,
You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I
teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a
complaint about it.
That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager robins
pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place."
That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting Robin's
hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, it's not
the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just workshopped
the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety of height
and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.)
The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the backs
of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when swinging.
One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on shoulders, unless
one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is fairly petite.
I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I have an
evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient support.
And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar.
That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing hold
works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? But I
might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what
you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand
correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.)
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's
arm on top of the lark's, but
an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years now,
where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on the
lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I know
at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie
workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide
equal support in the swing.
While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are not
grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this
without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent
backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the
right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much
eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by
pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially
refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow,
so it kills any enjoyment in that swing.
Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major
support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff
described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top
are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their
lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold
(robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder.
--jh--
On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner <
juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> JJ,
>
> I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry of
> a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing.
>
> Joe,
>
> I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having elbows
> occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture).
> That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that
> everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our goal
> for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as
> such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers -
> can anticipate every need or difference.
>
> In dance,
> Julian Blechner
>
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcgj95(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the
>> switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed
to" end on
>> (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left
>> arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is
the
>> "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to
consciously tell
>> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle
memory just takes over
>> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅.
>>
>> I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles
>> without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the
>> traditional ballroom figure.
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's
role
>>> actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the
norm."
>>>
>>> When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially
>>> doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I
>>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I
>>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the
>>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were
>>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way?
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way
>>>> that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if
I
>>>> have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs
>>>> (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal
contact if
>>>> one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if
>>>> you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable
than
>>>> ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
>>>>
>>>> In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role
>>>> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a
moment),
>>>> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral
swing", which is
>>>> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are
around
>>>> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's
right arm,
>>>> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands
around
>>>> each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost
never
>>>> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady.
I'm
>>>> not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a
>>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it
first
>>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
>>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when
we
>>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were
an
>>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
>>>> change...
>>>>
>>>> In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when
>>>> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and
uncomfortable in the
>>>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and
>>>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't
>>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even
though
>>>> it was pretty great in other ways.
>>>>
>>>> The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position
>>>> where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the
same
>>>> place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people
actually
>>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's
terrible,
>>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the
same
>>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is
outside
>>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow,
>>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain
>>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from
my
>>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the
>>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop
>>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can
hurt
>>>> the lark.
>>>>
>>>> One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no
>>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than
the
>>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending
the entire
>>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder
to
>>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if
they
>>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also
light
>>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make
for more
>>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder,
though. Only
>>>> pull forward.
>>>>
>>>> --jh--
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about
>>>>> this email thread and observations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Short and simple:
>>>>> A "barrel hold" swing:
>>>>> - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
>>>>> - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark,
>>>>> with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type
position. As we
>>>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it
guided
>>>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced
dancer.
>>>>>
>>>>> In dance,
>>>>> -Julian Blechner
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
<
>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go
above
>>>>>> the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would
intuitively think
>>>>>> that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for
dancers to
>>>>>> make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because
the robin’s
>>>>>> arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s
hand is
>>>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s
in things
>>>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the
hand/arm
>>>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive
to me if
>>>>>> I were just learning this swing.
>>>>>> Becky
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra
Callers
>>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 -
>>>>>> for spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next
dance! Though
>>>>>> what I think Becky found interesting about the variation
we're working on
>>>>>> is that it retains the "pointy hands", which can be
useful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your
message:
>>>>>> you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been
experimenting
>>>>>> with (visual at
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
>>>>>> )
>>>>>>
<https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0>
>>>>>> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms
that
>>>>>> are holding just above the elbow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with
his
>>>>>> left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold
you use
>>>>>> in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and
her right
>>>>>> hand.)
>>>>>> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I
intended:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
>>>>>> Starts at 3:18.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the
>>>>>> hold, that in this video referenced by Allan -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8
<https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in the photo I
shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's
arm?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative
height of the two dancing partners?
>>>>>> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin,
would the Robin's arm still be above the Lark's?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks all!
>>>>>> Kat K in Halifax
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers
>>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
>>>>>> Hi Kat,
>>>>>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo.
>>>>>> When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I
call a
>>>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together
rather than
>>>>>> further apart.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty
Contras
>>>>>> and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a
contra
>>>>>> dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel
that it
>>>>>> really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem
to be enough
>>>>>> connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my
arm. I felt
>>>>>> that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen
felt that it
>>>>>> was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping -
it was just
>>>>>> awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest
>>>>>> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I
don't want your weight!
>>>>>> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control
their own
>>>>>> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal
force and
>>>>>> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on
the
>>>>>> spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own
balance and
>>>>>> weight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much
>>>>>> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is
taught badly,
>>>>>> and then lots of Aerials:
>>>>>> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I
>>>>>> shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I
can't afford
>>>>>> to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can
Swing at high
>>>>>> speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I
just slow
>>>>>> the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take
their own
>>>>>> weight or fall over.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you
will
>>>>>> find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem
to
>>>>>> do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes
some
>>>>>> getting used to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a
Ceilidh
>>>>>> Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) -
>>>>>> you could always try the Forearm Swing instead (
>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same
>>>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Happy dancing,
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
&
>>>>>> 07802 940 574
>>>>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
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>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
>>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
>>>>>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies
and
>>>>>> lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference
between a
>>>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing
dance with
>>>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing
with EVERY
>>>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked
to dance.
>>>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than
saying
>>>>>> yes to one person.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our
>>>>>> group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their
contra
>>>>>> dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The
most
>>>>>> important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of
conduct which
>>>>>> we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear
he would
>>>>>> not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others,
but it’s
>>>>>> always been women who have said this to me over the years), when
they come
>>>>>> to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the
line, it is
>>>>>> asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with
whoever comes
>>>>>> at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might
make
>>>>>> contra feel safer, especially for new dancers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the
>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Becky
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner
>>>>>> <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com>
<juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a
ballroom
>>>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
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>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
>>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a
ballroom
>>>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in
our
>>>>>> minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our
culture?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer,
>>>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own
intimacy to
>>>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more
space -
>>>>>> though I wouldn't say the default)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it something else?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a
solution
>>>>>> to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might
entail?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In dance,
>>>>>> Julian Blechner
>>>>>> He/him
>>>>>> Western Mass
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
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>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
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>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
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>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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3:33 p.m.
Responding to various points.
And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always regional differences
(and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really about?)
I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a friendly tone and
desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's intended.
I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking approximately
the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and Swing, and
Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings.
The short version: despite being contemporaries and the books published a
year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different swing holds,
where:
- a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the small of the back
(Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the cover
which he points out in the description is what to follow)
- a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom palm-up supporting the
lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper arm (Jennings,
with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a lady's hands
- a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper arm (Jennings) or
"behind the upper arm" (Sanella)
So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing position, and
holds described by both did include women holding men in ways that were
supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that their hand is
"resting on top" as with other couples' dances.
Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back around to that
after I touch on some specific points:
RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against the Leftie’s
supporting right hand."
Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back" may be describing "the
feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely experienced
people who lean back.
RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing together because
you are limited to the length of the shorter arm."
I don't think this is accurate.
This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade isn't small,
and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size differences.
There's always exceptions, sure.
Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing shoulderblades. Then
again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's less support
that's needed to be given.
RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going
to be on top of me."
I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in the "middle" of
the back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in the middle is
partially off the shoulderblade.
I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the hand often can
naturally curve around the shoulderblade.
RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are
coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in
collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward."
I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think everyone on this list
here has been dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't a thing
I've
really experienced or heard discussed.
So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but people just ... do
it?
As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing from a bit of an
under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm comes in more
open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their right arm before
I try and wrap my right arm around.
It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a good connection on a
star promenade.
Further to this point, if I were using the traditional "woman left arm
rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged, anyway.
Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra bit of work in
the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, and timing
their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed.
This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work as
wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women.
Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
Some men dance with men, some women with women.
Etc.
So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a swing work for
both people" as a universal and generic skill.
Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more automatic than it may
seem!
Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic aspects of
contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to
adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium
that works for both people.
If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my shoulderblade, that's
fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing speed.
I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer can adjust
their style to meet another dancer's differences in size, height, ability,
tiredness, injury, age, etc.
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein <nschlein(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Julian,
Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other persons
back, I agree with Joe.
The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things.
First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the length
of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long
arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on
top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK
with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space. (Also,
I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants their
hand on my back.)
Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are
coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in
collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a
changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening
of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby
pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts
the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a
non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and
potentially harmful.
Neal Schlein
Librarian, MSLIS
On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi Joe,
You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I
teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a
complaint about it.
That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager robins
pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place."
That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting Robin's
hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, it's not
the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just workshopped
the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety of height
and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.)
The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the
backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when
swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on
shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is
fairly petite.
I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I have
an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient
support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar.
That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing hold
works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? But I
might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what
you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand
correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.)
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's
arm on top of the lark's,
but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years
now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on
the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I
know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie
workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide
equal support in the swing.
While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are
not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this
without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent
backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the
right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much
eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by
pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially
refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow,
so it kills any enjoyment in that swing.
Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major
support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff
described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top
are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their
lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold
(robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder.
--jh--
On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner <
juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> JJ,
>
> I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry
> of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing.
>
> Joe,
>
> I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having elbows
> occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture).
> That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that
> everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our goal
> for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as
> such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers -
> can anticipate every need or difference.
>
> In dance,
> Julian Blechner
>
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcgj95(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the
>> switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed
to" end on
>> (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left
>> arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is
the
>> "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to
consciously tell
>> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle
memory just takes over
>> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅.
>>
>> I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles
>> without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the
>> traditional ballroom figure.
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's
>>> role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the
norm."
>>>
>>> When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially
>>> doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I
>>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I
>>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the
>>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were
>>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way?
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a
>>>> way that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially
true
>>>> if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to
>>>> theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without
frontal
>>>> contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all
that
>>>> aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold,
more
>>>> stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
>>>>
>>>> In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role
>>>> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a
moment),
>>>> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral
swing", which is
>>>> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are
around
>>>> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's
right arm,
>>>> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands
around
>>>> each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost
never
>>>> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady.
I'm
>>>> not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a
>>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it
first
>>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
>>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when
we
>>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were
an
>>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
>>>> change...
>>>>
>>>> In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when
>>>> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and
uncomfortable in the
>>>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and
>>>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't
>>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even
though
>>>> it was pretty great in other ways.
>>>>
>>>> The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position
>>>> where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the
same
>>>> place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people
actually
>>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's
terrible,
>>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the
same
>>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is
outside
>>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow,
>>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain
>>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from
my
>>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the
>>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop
>>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can
hurt
>>>> the lark.
>>>>
>>>> One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no
>>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than
the
>>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending
the entire
>>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder
to
>>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if
they
>>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also
light
>>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make
for more
>>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder,
though. Only
>>>> pull forward.
>>>>
>>>> --jh--
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about
>>>>> this email thread and observations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Short and simple:
>>>>> A "barrel hold" swing:
>>>>> - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
>>>>> - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark,
>>>>> with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type
position. As we
>>>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it
guided
>>>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced
dancer.
>>>>>
>>>>> In dance,
>>>>> -Julian Blechner
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
<
>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go
above
>>>>>> the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would
intuitively think
>>>>>> that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for
dancers to
>>>>>> make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because
the robin’s
>>>>>> arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s
hand is
>>>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s
in things
>>>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the
hand/arm
>>>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive
to me if
>>>>>> I were just learning this swing.
>>>>>> Becky
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra
>>>>>> Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 -
>>>>>> for spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next
dance! Though
>>>>>> what I think Becky found interesting about the variation
we're working on
>>>>>> is that it retains the "pointy hands", which can be
useful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your
message:
>>>>>> you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been
experimenting
>>>>>> with (visual at
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
>>>>>> )
>>>>>>
<https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0>
>>>>>> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms
that
>>>>>> are holding just above the elbow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with
>>>>>> his left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the
hold you
>>>>>> use in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand
and her
>>>>>> right hand.)
>>>>>> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I
intended:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
>>>>>> Starts at 3:18.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the
>>>>>> hold, that in this video referenced by Allan -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8
<https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in the photo I
shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's
arm?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative
height of the two dancing partners?
>>>>>> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin,
would the Robin's arm still be above the Lark's?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks all!
>>>>>> Kat K in Halifax
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers
>>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
>>>>>> Hi Kat,
>>>>>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo.
>>>>>> When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I
call a
>>>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together
rather than
>>>>>> further apart.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty
Contras
>>>>>> and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a
contra
>>>>>> dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel
that it
>>>>>> really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem
to be enough
>>>>>> connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my
arm. I felt
>>>>>> that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen
felt that it
>>>>>> was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping -
it was just
>>>>>> awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest
>>>>>> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I
don't want your weight!
>>>>>> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control
their own
>>>>>> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal
force and
>>>>>> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on
>>>>>> the spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their
own balance
>>>>>> and weight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much
>>>>>> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is
taught badly,
>>>>>> and then lots of Aerials:
>>>>>> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I
>>>>>> shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I
can't afford
>>>>>> to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can
Swing at high
>>>>>> speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I
just slow
>>>>>> the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take
their own
>>>>>> weight or fall over.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you
will
>>>>>> find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem
>>>>>> to do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and
takes some
>>>>>> getting used to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a
Ceilidh
>>>>>> Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) -
>>>>>> you could always try the Forearm Swing instead (
>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same
>>>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Happy dancing,
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
&
>>>>>> 07802 940 574
>>>>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
>>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
>>>>>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies
and
>>>>>> lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference
between a
>>>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing
dance with
>>>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing
with EVERY
>>>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked
to dance.
>>>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than
saying
>>>>>> yes to one person.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our
>>>>>> group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their
contra
>>>>>> dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The
most
>>>>>> important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of
conduct which
>>>>>> we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear
he would
>>>>>> not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others,
but it’s
>>>>>> always been women who have said this to me over the years), when
they come
>>>>>> to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the
line, it is
>>>>>> asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with
whoever comes
>>>>>> at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might
make
>>>>>> contra feel safer, especially for new dancers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the
>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Becky
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner
>>>>>> <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com>
<juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a
ballroom
>>>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
>>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a
ballroom
>>>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in
our
>>>>>> minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our
culture?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer,
>>>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own
intimacy to
>>>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more
space -
>>>>>> though I wouldn't say the default)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it something else?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a
>>>>>> solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset
might entail?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In dance,
>>>>>> Julian Blechner
>>>>>> He/him
>>>>>> Western Mass
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
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>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
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>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
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>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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4:13 p.m.
Looking through old media to figure out what swing positions were common
sounds like fun! I think video might be more promising? Here's a few
annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and each bullet
describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame at the timestamp. I
only counted each couple once:
Cambridge MA, 1990: https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC
* 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms, gent's right hand behind lady's
back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm
* 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
* 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's left hand on gent's shoulder,
gent's right hand on lady's back
* 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out, lady's left hand behind
gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back
* 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on backs with lady above gent
* 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's inner hand on lady's
back, lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder
* 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out, gent's inner hand on lady's
back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm
* 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's shoulders, gent's left hand behind
lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back
* 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
* 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
The "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I think of as the
standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of
variation.
I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3v3CmYypBQ> clip, but there were too many
cuts. The 1964 video <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br1MHXietLc> would
be another one to try?
Jeff
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Responding to various points.
And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always regional differences
(and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really about?)
I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a friendly tone and
desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's intended.
I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking
approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and
Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings.
The short version: despite being contemporaries and the books published a
year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different swing holds,
where:
- a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the small of the back
(Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the cover
which he points out in the description is what to follow)
- a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom palm-up supporting the
lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper arm (Jennings,
with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a lady's hands
- a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper arm (Jennings) or
"behind the upper arm" (Sanella)
So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing position, and
holds described by both did include women holding men in ways that were
supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that their hand is
"resting on top" as with other couples' dances.
Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back around to that
after I touch on some specific points:
RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against the Leftie’s
supporting right hand."
Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back" may be describing "the
feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely experienced
people who lean back.
RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing together because
you are limited to the length of the shorter arm."
I don't think this is accurate.
This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade isn't small,
and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size differences.
There's always exceptions, sure.
Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing shoulderblades. Then
again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's less support
that's needed to be given.
RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going
to be on top of me."
I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in the "middle" of
the back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in the middle is
partially off the shoulderblade.
I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the hand often can
naturally curve around the shoulderblade.
RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are
coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in
collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward."
I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think everyone on this list
here has been dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't a thing
I've
really experienced or heard discussed.
So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but people just ... do
it?
As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing from a bit of an
under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm comes in more
open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their right arm before
I try and wrap my right arm around.
It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a good connection on a
star promenade.
Further to this point, if I were using the traditional "woman left arm
rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged, anyway.
Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra bit of work in
the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, and timing
their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed.
This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work as
wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women.
Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
Some men dance with men, some women with women.
Etc.
So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a swing work for
both people" as a universal and generic skill.
Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more automatic than it may
seem!
Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic aspects of
contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to
adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium
that works for both people.
If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my shoulderblade, that's
fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing speed.
I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer can adjust
their style to meet another dancer's differences in size, height, ability,
tiredness, injury, age, etc.
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein <nschlein(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Julian,
Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other persons
back, I agree with Joe.
The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things.
First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the length
of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long
arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on
top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK
with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space. (Also,
I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants their
hand on my back.)
Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are
coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in
collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a
changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening
of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby
pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts
the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a
non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and
potentially harmful.
Neal Schlein
Librarian, MSLIS
On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Contra Callers mailing list
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To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Hi Joe,
You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I
teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a
complaint about it.
That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager
robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place."
That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting
Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping,
it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just
workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety
of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.)
The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the
backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when
swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on
shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is
fairly petite.
I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I have
an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient
support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar.
That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing hold
works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? But I
might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what
you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand
correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.)
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
_______________________________________________ Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's
arm on top of the lark's,
but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years
now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on
the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I
know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie
workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide
equal support in the swing.
While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are
not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this
without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent
backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the
right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much
eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by
pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially
refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow,
so it kills any enjoyment in that swing.
Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major
support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff
described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top
are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their
lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold
(robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder.
--jh--
On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner <
juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> JJ,
>
> I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry
> of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing.
>
> Joe,
>
> I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having elbows
> occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture).
> That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that
> everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our goal
> for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as
> such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers -
> can anticipate every need or difference.
>
> In dance,
> Julian Blechner
>
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcgj95(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the
>> switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed
to" end on
>> (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left
>> arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is
the
>> "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to
consciously tell
>> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle
memory just takes over
>> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅.
>>
>> I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles
>> without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the
>> traditional ballroom figure.
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's
>>> role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the
norm."
>>>
>>> When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially
>>> doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I
>>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I
>>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the
>>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were
>>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way?
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a
>>>> way that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially
true
>>>> if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to
>>>> theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without
frontal
>>>> contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all
that
>>>> aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold,
more
>>>> stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
>>>>
>>>> In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role
>>>> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a
moment),
>>>> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral
swing", which is
>>>> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are
around
>>>> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's
right arm,
>>>> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands
around
>>>> each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost
never
>>>> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady.
I'm
>>>> not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a
>>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it
first
>>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
>>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when
we
>>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were
an
>>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
>>>> change...
>>>>
>>>> In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when
>>>> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and
uncomfortable in the
>>>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and
>>>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't
>>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even
though
>>>> it was pretty great in other ways.
>>>>
>>>> The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom
>>>> position where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back
in the
>>>> same place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people
actually
>>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's
terrible,
>>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the
same
>>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is
outside
>>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow,
>>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain
>>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from
my
>>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the
>>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop
>>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can
hurt
>>>> the lark.
>>>>
>>>> One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no
>>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than
the
>>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending
the entire
>>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder
to
>>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if
they
>>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also
light
>>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make
for more
>>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder,
though. Only
>>>> pull forward.
>>>>
>>>> --jh--
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about
>>>>> this email thread and observations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Short and simple:
>>>>> A "barrel hold" swing:
>>>>> - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
>>>>> - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark,
>>>>> with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type
position. As we
>>>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it
guided
>>>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced
dancer.
>>>>>
>>>>> In dance,
>>>>> -Julian Blechner
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go
above
>>>>>> the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would
intuitively think
>>>>>> that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for
dancers to
>>>>>> make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because
the robin’s
>>>>>> arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s
hand is
>>>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s
in things
>>>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the
hand/arm
>>>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive
to me if
>>>>>> I were just learning this swing.
>>>>>> Becky
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra
>>>>>> Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 -
>>>>>> for spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next
dance! Though
>>>>>> what I think Becky found interesting about the variation
we're working on
>>>>>> is that it retains the "pointy hands", which can be
useful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your
>>>>>> message: you say when you tried the swing variation our group
has been
>>>>>> experimenting with (visual at
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
>>>>>> )
>>>>>>
<https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0>
>>>>>> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms
>>>>>> that are holding just above the elbow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with
>>>>>> his left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the
hold you
>>>>>> use in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand
and her
>>>>>> right hand.)
>>>>>> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I
intended:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
>>>>>> Starts at 3:18.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the
>>>>>> hold, that in this video referenced by Allan -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8
<https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in the photo I
shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's
arm?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative
height of the two dancing partners?
>>>>>> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin,
would the Robin's arm still be above the Lark's?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks all!
>>>>>> Kat K in Halifax
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers
>>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
>>>>>> Hi Kat,
>>>>>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo.
>>>>>> When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I
call a
>>>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together
rather than
>>>>>> further apart.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty
>>>>>> Contras and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600
dancers at a
>>>>>> contra dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was
using it!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel
that
>>>>>> it really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't
seem to be
>>>>>> enough connection to have a really good swing unless Karen
gripped my arm.
>>>>>> I felt that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top
Karen felt
>>>>>> that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't
gripping - it was
>>>>>> just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest
>>>>>> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I
don't want your weight!
>>>>>> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control
their own
>>>>>> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal
force and
>>>>>> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on
>>>>>> the spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their
own balance
>>>>>> and weight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much
>>>>>> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is
taught badly,
>>>>>> and then lots of Aerials:
>>>>>> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I
>>>>>> shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I
can't afford
>>>>>> to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can
Swing at high
>>>>>> speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I
just slow
>>>>>> the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take
their own
>>>>>> weight or fall over.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you
will
>>>>>> find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem
>>>>>> to do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and
takes some
>>>>>> getting used to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a
>>>>>> Ceilidh Swing (
>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you
>>>>>> could always try the Forearm Swing instead (
>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same
>>>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Happy dancing,
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
>>>>>> & 07802 940 574
>>>>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
>>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
>>>>>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies
>>>>>> and lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference
between a
>>>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing
dance with
>>>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing
with EVERY
>>>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked
to dance.
>>>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than
saying
>>>>>> yes to one person.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our
>>>>>> group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their
contra
>>>>>> dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The
most
>>>>>> important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of
conduct which
>>>>>> we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear
he would
>>>>>> not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others,
but it’s
>>>>>> always been women who have said this to me over the years), when
they come
>>>>>> to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the
line, it is
>>>>>> asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with
whoever comes
>>>>>> at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might
make
>>>>>> contra feel safer, especially for new dancers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the
>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Becky
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner
>>>>>> <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com>
<juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a
ballroom
>>>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
>>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a
ballroom
>>>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in
our
>>>>>> minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our
culture?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer,
>>>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own
intimacy to
>>>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more
space -
>>>>>> though I wouldn't say the default)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it something else?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a
>>>>>> solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset
might entail?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In dance,
>>>>>> Julian Blechner
>>>>>> He/him
>>>>>> Western Mass
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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4:33 p.m.
The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same variety of swinging styles
from ballroom to various barrel holds.
Bob
On Mar 26, 2024, at 16:13, Jeff Kaufman via Contra
Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Looking through old media to figure out what swing positions were common sounds like fun!
I think video might be more promising? Here's a few annotations of a video, where
the numbers are timestamps and each bullet describes the couple that's in the middle
of the frame at the timestamp. I only counted each couple once:
Cambridge MA, 1990: https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC
* 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms, gent's right hand behind lady's
back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm
* 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
* 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's left hand on gent's shoulder,
gent's right hand on lady's back
* 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out, lady's left hand behind gent's
shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back
* 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on backs with lady above gent
* 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's inner hand on lady's back,
lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder
* 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out, gent's inner hand on lady's back,
lady's inner hand behind gent's arm
* 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's shoulders, gent's left hand behind
lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back
* 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
* 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
The "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I think of as the
standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of variation.
I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975 clip, but there were too many cuts. The 1964
video would be another one to try?
Jeff
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Responding to various points.
And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always regional differences (and,
perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really about?)
I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a friendly tone and desire for
friendly discussion, as that's what's intended.
I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking approximately the beginning
of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and Swing, and Zesty Contras - and
absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings.
The short version: despite being contemporaries and the books published a year apart
(1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different swing holds, where:
- a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the small of the back (Sanella) or a
little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the cover which he points out in the
description is what to follow)
- a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom palm-up supporting the lady's
right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper arm (Jennings, with Sanella
noting the variation as well) - with a lady's hands
- a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper arm (Jennings) or
"behind the upper arm" (Sanella)
So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing position, and holds described
by both did include women holding men in ways that were supporting from behind rather than
everyone agreeing that their hand is "resting on top" as with other couples'
dances.
Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back around to that after I touch
on some specific points:
RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against the Leftie’s supporting
right hand."
Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back" may be describing "the
feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely experienced people who lean
back.
RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing together because you are
limited to the length of the shorter arm."
I don't think this is accurate.
This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade isn't small, and
adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size differences. There's always
exceptions, sure.
Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing shoulderblades. Then again, they
have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's less support that's needed to be
given.
RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on
top of me."
I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in the "middle" of the
back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in the middle is partially off
the shoulderblade.
I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the hand often can naturally curve
around the shoulderblade.
RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are coming in
at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in collision. SOMEONE has to
adjust up or down AND forward."
I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think everyone on this list here has been
dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't a thing I've really
experienced or heard discussed.
So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but people just ... do it?
As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing from a bit of an under-scooping
motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm comes in more open and I wait half a moment
to let the lark engage their right arm before I try and wrap my right arm around.
It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a good connection on a star
promenade.
Further to this point, if I were using the traditional "woman left arm rests on
top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged, anyway.
Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra bit of work in the dance of
that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, and timing their own move --- and I
wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed.
This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work as wellwhen it's not
taller men dancing with shorter women.
Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
Some men dance with men, some women with women.
Etc.
So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a swing work for both
people" as a universal and generic skill.
Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more automatic than it may seem!
Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic aspects of contra, I teach
(and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to adjust themselves to every partner
and neighbor, and find a happy medium that works for both people.
If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my shoulderblade, that's fine
and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing speed.
I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer can adjust their style to
meet another dancer's differences in size, height, ability, tiredness, injury, age,
etc.
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein <nschlein(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Julian,
Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other persons back, I agree
with Joe.
The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things.
First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the length of the shorter
arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long arms—putting your palm in the middle
of my back means you’re going to be on top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want
space, and I’m not OK with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space.
(Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants their hand on
my back.)
Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are coming in at the
same point and going to the same point, resulting in collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up
or down AND forward. This means a changed angle for one person, and due to the change in
angle a shortening of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby
pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts the other
person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a non-natural position, which
is likely to be physically uncomfortable and potentially harmful.
Neal Schlein
Librarian, MSLIS
On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi Joe,
You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I teach it, lots
of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a complaint about it.
That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager robins
pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place."
That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting Robin's
hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, it's not the only
way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just workshopped the issue with my partner
in the living room to test a variety of height and holds out to confirm what you were
saying, as well.)
The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the backs of each
other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when swinging. One usually winds
up _closer_ when hands are resting on shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly
stronger and the other is fairly petite.
I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I have an evening too
many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient support. And I've heard plenty
of dancers say similar.
That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing hold works better for
you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? But I might recommend considering
workshopping swings further, because what you're requesting is counter to prevailing
teaching. If I understand correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing
something.)
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the lark's, but an
alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years now, where the
robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on the lark's back as the lark
has their right hand on the robin's back. I know at least one prominent caller who
teaches this hold in their newbie workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to
do this to provide equal support in the swing.
While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are not grossly
mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this without their elbows
occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent backward by eager robins pressing my
elbow in to get their elbow in the right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to
pain, it pretty much eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight
back" by pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially refusing
the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow, so it kills any
enjoyment in that swing.
Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major support in a swing,
the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff described, or even a mirror of the
ballroom where the lark's arm is on top are much better opportunities. A robin whose
arm is longer than their lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a
ballroom hold (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the
shoulder.
--jh--
On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
JJ,
I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry of a ballroom hold
provides to reinforce what role one is dancing.
Joe,
I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having elbows occupy the
same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture). That said, it raises
the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that everyone has different physical needs
and finding happy mediums is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with
ballroom hold handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned
callers - can anticipate every need or difference.
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcgj95(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the switch" in
the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end on (assuming
we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left arm is the
"pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is the "pointy
arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell myself
"I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes
over and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅.
I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles without warning
through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the traditional ballroom figure.
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
"At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role actually
swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm."
When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially doing it as you
said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I encountered. I remember being surprised
sometime around 2006-2007 when I ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they
wanted to do the standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were
dancing the lady's role in the standard way?
Jeff
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way that indicated it
was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I have to lean over to do it, as
that puts my face pretty close to theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult
to do without frontal contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all
that aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable
than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role (using the
terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), we'd almost
universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is symmetrical and very
stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around the other's back and both left
arms go over/around the other's right arm, bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between
you, and clasp left hands around each other's forearms between your bodies. At the
time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a
lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a
particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first and then did it
with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our neighbors. We got some pretty surprised
looks from our neighbors when we swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that
partner and I were an item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
change...
In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when they're happy
to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the extreme to be going up
an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and looks of disgust as a guy dancing the
robbin...enough that I haven't returned to the dance weekend where that happened in
Fall 2022, even though it was pretty great in other ways.
The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position where the robbin
tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same place where the lark's hand
is on theirs. I know some people actually teach it this way, I guess as some kind of
equality thing. It's terrible, because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have
to occupy the same space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is
outside mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow,
eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain before I can
either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my back, or pull my arm up to
rest it on their arm in a mirror of the traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince
everyone to stop teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can
hurt the lark.
One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no communication is, if the
robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the lark's, they rest their left arm on
the lark's right, extending the entire length of the arm and then reaching around/over
the lark's shoulder to provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at
least, if they are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also
light enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more
connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only pull
forward.
--jh--
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about this email thread and
observations.
Short and simple:
A "barrel hold" swing:
- Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
- One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with his left arm curved
into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we engaged in the swing hold, he
placed his left arm in place, and it guided things in. It worked pretty well for me, at
least as an experienced dancer.
In dance,
-Julian Blechner
On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above the lark’s in the
modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that having that rule/understanding
might make it easier for dancers to make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom
because the robin’s arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand
is typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things like a
balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm orientations the same
in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if I were just learning this swing.
Becky
On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching
via Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for spacing -- and I'm
going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I think Becky found interesting
about the variation we're working on is that it retains the "pointy hands",
which can be useful.
The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: you say when you tried
the swing variation our group has been experimenting with (visual at
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
)
-- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that are holding just above
the elbow.
But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his left hand my right
hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use in this video of yours - (but in
your case, your left hand and her right hand.)
Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended:
https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
Starts at 3:18.
Thoughts?
Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold, that in this video
referenced by Allan -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 or in the photo I shared above via Dropbox,
that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's arm?
Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of the two
dancing partners?
(for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm
still be above the Lark's?
Thanks all!
Kat K in Halifax
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John Sweeney via Contra Callers
Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
Hi Kat,
Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When you mentioned
Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a Foreshortened Hold in my video and
brings you closer together rather than further apart.
I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras and love it. I was
surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra dance at The Flurry and realised
that nobody else was using it!
We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it really worked.
With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough connection to have a
really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt that my hand might slide down. With
my right arm on top Karen felt that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I
wasn't gripping - it was just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest problem is that people
are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! People misunderstand
and lean back or sideways. If people control their own weight then all the connection has
to do is counter centrifugal force and that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the spot BY THEMSELVES.
Then when they connect they keep their own balance and weight.
I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive Strain Injury from
another style of dance that is taught badly, and then lots of Aerials:
https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I shouldn't have started
doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford to let people damage my shoulders.
With a good partner I can Swing at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans
back or sideways I just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to
take their own weight or fall over.
Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will find it is much less
strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to do it without any
problem. It is just a different feel and takes some getting used to.
Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh Swing
(http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you could always try the Forearm
Swing instead (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same principle, but
further apart so no bodily contact.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
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becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and lack of physical air
space between them. The huge difference between a swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to
dance a waltz or a swing dance with someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing
to swing with EVERY opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to
dance. That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying yes to one
person.
As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group a few years ago,
MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance line specifically to avoid having
to swing with him. The most important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of
conduct which we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would
not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been women
who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance not KNOWING whether
there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite a lot to expect them to do a
ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom
hold might make contra feel safer, especially for new dancers.
I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the difference.
Becky
On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold feels more
"intimate" than other holds?
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Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold feels more
"intimate" than other holds?
Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our minds with couples
dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?
Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed arms has my hands
bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me, though sometimes barrel holds can be
done with a bit more space - though I wouldn't say the default)
Is it something else?
Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to an alternate
swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?
In dance,
Julian Blechner
He/him
Western Mass
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11:08 p.m.
Here's a 1989 recording the Portland OR dance did in a recording studio:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k . I see almost all "outer arms
making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, lady's left hand
behind gent's shoulder" hold (hereafter 'ballroom' though as illustrated
above that's a fraught term). At 0:58 and then again at 1:28, 1:58, 3:02
etc there's a couple with a symmetrical hold where they each have their
right hand around the other's waist, with their left hands joined low in
the center. I didn't watch the whole video, so it's possible there were
other couples that did other holds at some point?
Here's 1987 in Mendocino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q . I
only see ballroom holds.
Here's 1986 in Cambridge MA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q .
Outdoor demo performance. Almost all ballroom holds, but at 4:04 the
couple all the way on the right has outer hands in a forearm hold (which
they continue doing in later iterations of the dance).
Here's 1986 in Francestown NH: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE
At 0:30 I see two ballroom holds and two where the outer arms are holding a
bit above the elbows. At 1:06 I see two ballroom holds, one of the hold
from 0:30, and one of the symmetrical holds I described in the Portland OR
video, though note that this is many of the same couples. Jumping ahead to
8:38 I see three ballroom holds and where the outer hands hold each other's
forearms. Separately, I really like how enthusiastic the balances are: you
can feel the room shake through to the camera!
Here's one labeled 1986 Chico Contra:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg Almost all ballroom holds,
except for one couple where the lady's left hand is on the back of the
gent's right arm instead of behind his shoulder (doesn't look comfortable
to me!)
Here's 1976 in Bloomington: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w .
Looks like a performance. At 0:10 I see three couples where the outer
hands are joined as in ballroom, the gent's right hand is around the lady's
waist, and the lady's left hand is again on the back of the gent's right
arm. Then there's one couple doing the symmetrical swing with left hands
joined low between their bodies. Same again at 0:44, 1:11, etc.
Here's 1967 somewhere in New England:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM . I see ballroom at 0:35,
0:37, 3:15, 3:16, 5:08, 5:10. Then at 1:05 (and then again in the
background at 5:11, and then again at 5:23 and 5:33) I see a forearm hold
with arms that are straighter than I'm used to. At 2:08 I see a hold where
the gents hands are both around the lady's waist and the lady's hands are
both over the tops of the gent's shoulders.
Here's 1981 in Belmont MA, but it's an hour and I'm going to bed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo
Jeff
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 4:33 PM Stein, Robert <steinr(a)msu.edu> wrote:
The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows
the same variety of
swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel holds.
Bob
On Mar 26, 2024, at 16:13, Jeff Kaufman via
Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Looking through old media to figure out what swing positions were common
sounds
like fun! I think video might be more promising? Here's a few
annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and each bullet
describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame at the timestamp. I
only counted each couple once:
Cambridge MA, 1990: https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC
* 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms, gent's right hand behind lady's
back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm
* 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's
right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
* 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's
left hand on gent's shoulder,
gent's right hand on lady's back
* 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out,
lady's left hand behind
gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on
lady's back
* 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on
backs with lady above gent
* 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's inner hand on lady's
back, lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder
* 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out,
gent's inner hand on
lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's
arm
* 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's
shoulders, gent's left hand
behind lady's elbow, gent's right hand
behind lady's back
* 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's
right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
* 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's
right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
The "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I think of as the
standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of
variation.
I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975 clip, but there were too many
cuts.
The 1964 video would be another one to try?
Jeff
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Responding to various points.
And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always regional differences
(and,
perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really about?)
I beg you forgive me for directness, and please
assume a friendly tone
and desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's
intended.
I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking
approximately the
beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and
Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings.
The short version: despite being contemporaries
and the books published
a year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly
different swing holds,
where:
- a gent's right hand is either on the waist
on the small of the back
(Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the
illustration on the cover
which he points out in the description is what to follow)
- a gent's left hand is either a typical
ballroom palm-up supporting the
lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the
lady's right upper arm (Jennings,
with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a lady's hands
- a lady's left hand is resting on the top of
the upper arm (Jennings)
or "behind the upper arm" (Sanella)
So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing position,
and holds
described by both did include women holding men in ways that were
supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that their hand is
"resting on top" as with other couples' dances.
Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll
circle back around to that
after I touch on some specific points:
RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against the Leftie’s
supporting right hand."
Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning
back" may be describing "the
feeling of centripetal force", but also
I have definitely experienced
people who lean back.
RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing together because
you
are limited to the length of the shorter arm."
I don't think this is accurate.
This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade isn't small,
and
adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size differences.
There's always exceptions, sure.
Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not
doing shoulderblades. Then
again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so
there's less support
that's needed to be given.
RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re
going to
be on top of me."
I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is
not in the "middle" of
the back. There's a gap between
shoulderblades, so a hand in the middle is
partially off the shoulderblade.
I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the
curve of the hand often
can naturally curve around the shoulderblade.
RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are
coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in
collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward."
I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I
think everyone on this
list here has been dancing for years, and "elbow
collisions" isn't a thing
I've really experienced or heard discussed.
So, I conclude that this may in theory be
possible, but people just ...
do it?
As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into
a swing from a bit of
an under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left
arm comes in
more open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their right arm
before I try and wrap my right arm around.
It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading
into a good connection on a
star promenade.
Further to this point, if I were using the traditional "woman left arm
rests
on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged, anyway.
Which means that traditionally, women have done
that extra bit of work
in the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's
movement, and
timing their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed.
This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work as
wellwhen
it's not taller men dancing with shorter women.
Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand
role.
Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
Some men dance with men, some women with women.
Etc.
So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a swing work for
both
people" as a universal and generic skill.
Thankfully, I think it's one that's
actually more automatic than it may
seem!
Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic aspects of
contra, I
teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to
adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium
that works for both people.
If someone doesn't want to put their hand
flat on my shoulderblade,
that's fine and I'll adjust by limiting my
upper-end swing speed.
I think we all share the value that a skilled
contra dancer can adjust
their style to meet another dancer's differences in
size, height, ability,
tiredness, injury, age, etc.
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein <nschlein(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Hi Julian,
Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other
persons back, I
agree with Joe.
The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things.
First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the
length of the
shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long
arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on
top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK
with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space.
(Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants
their hand on my back.)
Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are
coming in at
the same point and going to the same point, resulting in
collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a
changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening
of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby
pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts
the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a
non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and
potentially harmful.
Neal Schlein
Librarian, MSLIS
On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi Joe,
You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I
teach
it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a
complaint about it.
That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager
robins
pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place."
That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting
Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping,
it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just
workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety
of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.)
The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the
backs of
each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when
swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on
shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is
fairly petite.
I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I have
an evening
too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient
support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar.
That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing hold
works
better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? But I
might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what
you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand
correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.)
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's
arm on top of the lark's,
but an alternative that I've seen occasionally,
but for a number of years
now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on
the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I
know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie
workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide
equal support in the swing.
While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are
not grossly
mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this
without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent
backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the
right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much
eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by
pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially
refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow,
so it kills any enjoyment in that swing.
Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major
support in a
swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff
described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top
are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their
lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold
(robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder.
--jh--
On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner <
juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
JJ,
I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry of
a
ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing.
Joe,
I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having elbows
occupy
the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture).
That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that
everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our goal
for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as
such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers -
can anticipate every need or difference.
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcgj95(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the
switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end
on
(assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left
arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is the
"pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously
tell
myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory
just takes over
and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅.
I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles
without
warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the
traditional ballroom figure.
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
"At the time, it almost never happened that
the one in the lady's role
actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when
that became the norm."
When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially
doing it as
you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I
encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I
ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the
standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were
dancing the lady's role in the standard way?
Jeff
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners
have reacted in a way
that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is
especially true if I
have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs
(I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if
one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if
you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than
ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role
(using the
terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment),
we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is
symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around
the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm,
bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around
each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never
happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm
not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a
particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first
and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we
swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an
item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
change...
In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when
they're
happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the
extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and
looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't
returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though
it was pretty great in other ways.
The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position
where the
robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same
place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually
teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible,
because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same
space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside
mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow,
eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain
before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my
back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the
traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop
teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt
the lark.
One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no
communication is,
if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the
lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire
length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to
provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they
are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light
enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more
connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only
pull forward.
--jh--
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
At the last couple of dances in the last few
days, I thought about this
email thread and observations.
Short and simple:
A "barrel hold" swing:
- Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
- One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with
his left arm
curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we
engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided
things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer.
In dance,
-Julian Blechner
On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I can’t answer whether the robin's would
always HAVE to go above the
lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would
intuitively think that
having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the
transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is
always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is
typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things
like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm
orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if
I were just learning this swing.
Becky
> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for
spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I
think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that
it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful.
>
> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: you
say
when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting
with (visual at
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
)
> -- you say that you found the grip
insufficient, for the arms that are
holding just above the elbow.
>
> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his
left hand
my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use
in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right
hand.)
> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but
it is what I intended:
> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
> Starts at 3:18.
> Thoughts?
>
> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
>
> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold,
that in
this video referenced by Allan -
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8
or in the photo I shared
above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always*
go above the Lark's
arm?
>
> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative
height of
the two dancing partners?
> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a
5' tall Robin, would the Robin's
arm still be above the Lark's?
>
> Thanks all!
> Kat K in Halifax
>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers
>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
>> Hi Kat,
>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When
you
mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a
Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than
further apart.
>>
>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras and
love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra dance
at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it!
>>
>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it
really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough
connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt
that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it
was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just
awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
>>
>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest
problem
is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight!
People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own
weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and
that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
>>
>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the
spot
BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and
weight.
>>
>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive
Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and then
lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe
I shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't
afford to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing
at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I
just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take
their own weight or fall over.
>>
>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will find
it
is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
>>
>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to do
it
without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some getting
used to.
>>
>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh
Swing
(http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you could
always try the Forearm Swing instead (
http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same principle,
but further apart so no bodily contact.
>>
>> Happy dancing,
>> John
>>
>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
07802 940 574
>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing
in Kent
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe send an email to
contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and
lack of
physical air space between them. The huge difference between a
swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with
someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY
opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance.
That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying
yes to one person.
>>
>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group a
few
years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance line
specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most important
intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which we used
to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would not agree
to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been
women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance
not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite
a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I
am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra feel
safer, especially for new dancers.
>>
>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the
difference.
>>
>> Becky
>>
>>
>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner <
juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold
feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>>
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>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold
feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>>
>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our
minds
with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?
>>
>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer,
crossed
arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to
me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space -
though I wouldn't say the default)
>>
>> Is it something else?
>>
>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to
an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?
>>>
>>> In dance,
>>> Julian Blechner
>>> He/him
>>> Western Mass
>>>
>>>
>>
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>
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27 Mar
27 Mar
12:24 p.m.
I was curious about John's "The shoulder-blade connection is purely to
counteract centrifugal force. That is not normally a lot of force, so it
shouldn’t make you tired." above. While ideally you could measure this, I
don't think swinging with a scale between your hand and partner's back and
your hand would be comfortable, and it would be hard to read. Let's try a
bit of physics.
If you like to swing quickly you might go 4.5x around in twelve beats,
which is 45rpm at a tempo of 120bpm. Let's guess the people each weigh
150lb and approximate them as point masses two feet apart. Doing some math:
r = 1ft
m = 300lb
ω = 45rpm = 0.75 hz
v = ω2πr
= 0.75 hz * 2π * 1ft
= 4.7 ft/s
F = mv^2/r
= 300lbm * (4.7 ft/s)^2 / 1ft
= 300lbm * 23ft / s^2
= 6662lbm * ft / s^2
1lbf = 32.17 lbm * ft / s^2
1lbm = 0.0311 lbf * s^2 / ft
F = 6662 lbm * ft / s^2
= 6662 * 0.0311 lbf
= 207lbf
This says you need ~216lb of force to hold the dancers together! If you're
rotating more slowly, perhaps 2.5x in twelve beats, it's still a
significant 64lb.
Jeff
PS: If you want something you can play with, this is (rpm/3 * 3.14)**2 *
weight * 1/32.2
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:08 PM Jeff Kaufman <jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Here's a 1989 recording the Portland OR dance did
in a recording studio:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k . I see almost all "outer
arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, lady's left hand
behind gent's shoulder" hold (hereafter 'ballroom' though as
illustrated
above that's a fraught term). At 0:58 and then again at 1:28, 1:58, 3:02
etc there's a couple with a symmetrical hold where they each have their
right hand around the other's waist, with their left hands joined low in
the center. I didn't watch the whole video, so it's possible there were
other couples that did other holds at some point?
Here's 1987 in Mendocino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q .
I only see ballroom holds.
Here's 1986 in Cambridge MA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q
. Outdoor demo performance. Almost all ballroom holds, but at 4:04 the
couple all the way on the right has outer hands in a forearm hold (which
they continue doing in later iterations of the dance).
Here's 1986 in Francestown NH: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE
At 0:30 I see two ballroom holds and two where the outer arms are holding a
bit above the elbows. At 1:06 I see two ballroom holds, one of the hold
from 0:30, and one of the symmetrical holds I described in the Portland OR
video, though note that this is many of the same couples. Jumping ahead to
8:38 I see three ballroom holds and where the outer hands hold each other's
forearms. Separately, I really like how enthusiastic the balances are: you
can feel the room shake through to the camera!
Here's one labeled 1986 Chico Contra:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg Almost all ballroom holds,
except for one couple where the lady's left hand is on the back of the
gent's right arm instead of behind his shoulder (doesn't look comfortable
to me!)
Here's 1976 in Bloomington: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w
. Looks like a performance. At 0:10 I see three couples where the outer
hands are joined as in ballroom, the gent's right hand is around the lady's
waist, and the lady's left hand is again on the back of the gent's right
arm. Then there's one couple doing the symmetrical swing with left hands
joined low between their bodies. Same again at 0:44, 1:11, etc.
Here's 1967 somewhere in New England:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM . I see ballroom at 0:35,
0:37, 3:15, 3:16, 5:08, 5:10. Then at 1:05 (and then again in the
background at 5:11, and then again at 5:23 and 5:33) I see a forearm hold
with arms that are straighter than I'm used to. At 2:08 I see a hold where
the gents hands are both around the lady's waist and the lady's hands are
both over the tops of the gent's shoulders.
Here's 1981 in Belmont MA, but it's an hour and I'm going to bed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo
Jeff
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 4:33 PM Stein, Robert <steinr(a)msu.edu> wrote:
> The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same variety of
> swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel holds.
> Bob
>
> > On Mar 26, 2024, at 16:13, Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >
> > Looking through old media to figure out what swing positions were
> common sounds like fun! I think video might be more promising? Here's a
> few annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and each
> bullet describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame at the
> timestamp. I only counted each couple once:
> >
> > Cambridge MA, 1990: https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC
> > * 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms, gent's right hand behind
> lady's back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm
> > * 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's
> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
> > * 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's left hand on gent's shoulder,
> gent's right hand on lady's back
> > * 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out, lady's left hand behind
> gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back
> > * 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on backs with lady above
> gent
> > * 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's inner hand on lady's
> back, lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder
> > * 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out, gent's inner hand on
> lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm
> > * 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's shoulders, gent's left hand
> behind lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back
> > * 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's
> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
> > * 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's
> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
> >
> > The "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's
back,
> lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I think of as the
> standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of
> variation.
> >
> > I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975 clip, but there were too
> many cuts. The 1964 video would be another one to try?
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > Responding to various points.
> > And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always regional
> differences (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really
> about?)
> > I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a friendly tone
> and desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's intended.
> >
> > I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking
> approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and
> Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings.
> > The short version: despite being contemporaries and the books published
> a year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different swing holds,
> where:
> > - a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the small of the back
> (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the cover
> which he points out in the description is what to follow)
> > - a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom palm-up supporting
> the lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper arm
> (Jennings, with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a lady's hands
> > - a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper arm (Jennings)
> or "behind the upper arm" (Sanella)
> >
> > So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing position,
> and holds described by both did include women holding men in ways that were
> supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that their hand is
> "resting on top" as with other couples' dances.
> > Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back around to that
> after I touch on some specific points:
> >
> > RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against the Leftie’s
> supporting right hand."
> > Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back" may be describing
"the
> feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely experienced
> people who lean back.
> >
> > RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing together
> because you are limited to the length of the shorter arm."
> > I don't think this is accurate.
> > This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade isn't
> small, and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size
> differences. There's always exceptions, sure.
> > Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing shoulderblades.
> Then again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's less
> support that's needed to be given.
> >
> > RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re
> going to be on top of me."
> > I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in the "middle"
> of the back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in the middle
> is partially off the shoulderblade.
> > I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the hand often
> can naturally curve around the shoulderblade.
> >
> > RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms
> are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in
> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward."
> > I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think everyone on this
> list here has been dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't a
thing
> I've really experienced or heard discussed.
> > So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but people just ...
> do it?
> > As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing from a bit of
> an under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm comes in
> more open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their right arm
> before I try and wrap my right arm around.
> > It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a good connection on
> a star promenade.
> >
> > Further to this point, if I were using the traditional "woman left arm
> rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged,
anyway.
> > Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra bit of work
> in the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, and
> timing their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed.
> >
> > This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work as
> wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women.
> > Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
> > Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
> > Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
> > Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
> > Some men dance with men, some women with women.
> > Etc.
> >
> > So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a swing work for
> both people" as a universal and generic skill.
> > Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more automatic than it may
> seem!
> >
> > Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic aspects of
> contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to
> adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium
> that works for both people.
> > If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my shoulderblade,
> that's fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing speed.
> > I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer can adjust
> their style to meet another dancer's differences in size, height, ability,
> tiredness, injury, age, etc.
> >
> > In dance,
> > Julian Blechner
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein <nschlein(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Julian,
> > Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other
> persons back, I agree with Joe.
> >
> > The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things.
> >
> > First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the
> length of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long
> arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on
> top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK
> with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space.
> (Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants
> their hand on my back.)
> >
> > Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are
> coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in
> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a
> changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening
> of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby
> pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts
> the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a
> non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and
> potentially harmful.
> >
> > Neal Schlein
> > Librarian, MSLIS
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > Hi Joe,
> >
> > You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I
> teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a
> complaint about it.
> >
> > That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager
> robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place."
> >
> > That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting
> Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping,
> it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just
> workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety
> of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.)
> >
> > The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the
> backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when
> swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on
> shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is
> fairly petite.
> >
> > I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I have
> an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient
> support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar.
> >
> > That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing
> hold works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah?
> But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what
> you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand
> correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.)
> >
> > In dance,
> > Julian Blechner
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the lark's,
> but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years
> now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on
> the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I
> know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie
> workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide
> equal support in the swing.
> >
> > While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are
> not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this
> without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent
> backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the
> right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much
> eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by
> pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially
> refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow,
> so it kills any enjoyment in that swing.
> >
> > Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major
> support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff
> described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top
> are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their
> lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold
> (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder.
> >
> > --jh--
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner <
> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > JJ,
> >
> > I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry
> of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing.
> >
> > Joe,
> >
> > I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having elbows
> occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture).
> That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that
> everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our goal
> for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as
> such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers -
> can anticipate every need or difference.
> >
> > In dance,
> > Julian Blechner
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcgj95(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the
> switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to"
end on
> (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left
> arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is
the
> "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously
tell
> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle
memory just takes over
> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅.
> >
> > I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles
> without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the
> traditional ballroom figure.
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role
> actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm."
> >
> > When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially
> doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I
> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I
> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the
> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were
> dancing the lady's role in the standard way?
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way
> that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I
> have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs
> (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if
> one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if
> you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than
> ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
> >
> > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role
> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment),
> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which
is
> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around
> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm,
> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around
> each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never
> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm
> not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a
> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first
> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we
> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an
> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
> change...
> >
> > In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when
> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the
> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and
> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't
> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though
> it was pretty great in other ways.
> >
> > The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position
> where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same
> place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually
> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible,
> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same
> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside
> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow,
> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain
> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my
> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the
> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop
> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt
> the lark.
> >
> > One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no
> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the
> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire
> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to
> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they
> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light
> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more
> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only
> pull forward.
> >
> > --jh--
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about this
> email thread and observations.
> >
> > Short and simple:
> > A "barrel hold" swing:
> > - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
> > - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with
> his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we
> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided
> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer.
> >
> > In dance,
> > -Julian Blechner
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above the
> lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that
> having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the
> transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is
> always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is
> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things
> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm
> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if
> I were just learning this swing.
> > Becky
> >
> >> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for
> spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I
> think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that
> it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful.
> >>
> >> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: you
> say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting
> with (visual at
>
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
> )
> >> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that are
> holding just above the elbow.
> >>
> >> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his
> left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use
> in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right
> hand.)
> >> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended:
> >> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
> >> Starts at 3:18.
> >> Thoughts?
> >>
> >> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
> >>
> >> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold,
> that in this video referenced by Allan -
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 or in the photo I shared
> above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's
> arm?
> >>
> >> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative
> height of the two dancing partners?
> >> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the
> Robin's arm still be above the Lark's?
> >>
> >> Thanks all!
> >> Kat K in Halifax
> >>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers
> >>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
> >>> Hi Kat,
> >>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When
> you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a
> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than
> further apart.
> >>>
> >>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras
> and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra
> dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it!
> >>>
> >>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it
> really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough
> connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt
> that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it
> was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just
> awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
> >>>
> >>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest
> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your
weight!
> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own
> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and
> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
> >>>
> >>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the
> spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and
> weight.
> >>>
> >>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive
> Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and then
> lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT -
> maybe I shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't
> afford to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing
> at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I
> just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take
> their own weight or fall over.
> >>>
> >>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will
> find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
> >>>
> >>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to
> do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some
> getting used to.
> >>>
> >>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh
> Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you
> could always try the Forearm Swing instead (
> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same principle,
> but further apart so no bodily contact.
> >>>
> >>> Happy dancing,
> >>> John
> >>>
> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
> 07802 940 574
> >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
> >>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and
> lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a
> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with
> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY
> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance.
> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying
> yes to one person.
> >>>
> >>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group
> a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance
> line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most important
> intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which we used
> to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would not agree
> to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been
> women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance
> not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite
> a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I
> am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra feel
> safer, especially for new dancers.
> >>>
> >>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the
> difference.
> >>>
> >>> Becky
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner <
> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom
> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom
> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
> >>>
> >>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our
> minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?
> >>>
> >>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer,
> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to
> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space -
> though I wouldn't say the default)
> >>>
> >>> Is it something else?
> >>>
> >>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution
> to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?
> >>>
> >>> In dance,
> >>> Julian Blechner
> >>> He/him
> >>> Western Mass
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to
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> >
> > _______________________________________________
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>
>
12:47 p.m.
216 lb?! That's certainly not in accord with my lived experience over decades of
contra dancing. Jeff, assuming your physics and math are all correct, how much of that
force is accomplished by our feet on the floor, rather than upper body connection with a
partner?
I haven't been dancing in a while, but I remember many swings, even fast ones, feeling
almost weighless.
??
Richard
Arlington, MA
On Mar 27, 2024, at 12:24 PM, Jeff Kaufman via Contra
Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I was curious about John's "The shoulder-blade connection is purely to
counteract centrifugal force. That is not normally a lot of force, so it shouldn’t make
you tired." above. While ideally you could measure this, I don't think swinging
with a scale between your hand and partner's back and your hand would be comfortable,
and it would be hard to read. Let's try a bit of physics.
If you like to swing quickly you might go 4.5x around in twelve beats, which is 45rpm at
a tempo of 120bpm. Let's guess the people each weigh 150lb and approximate them as
point masses two feet apart. Doing some math:
r = 1ft
m = 300lb
ω = 45rpm = 0.75 hz
v = ω2πr
= 0.75 hz * 2π * 1ft
= 4.7 ft/s
F = mv^2/r
= 300lbm * (4.7 ft/s)^2 / 1ft
= 300lbm * 23ft / s^2
= 6662lbm * ft / s^2
1lbf = 32.17 lbm * ft / s^2
1lbm = 0.0311 lbf * s^2 / ft
F = 6662 lbm * ft / s^2
= 6662 * 0.0311 lbf
= 207lbf
This says you need ~216lb of force to hold the dancers together! If you're rotating
more slowly, perhaps 2.5x in twelve beats, it's still a significant 64lb.
Jeff
PS: If you want something you can play with, this is (rpm/3 * 3.14)**2 * weight * 1/32.2
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:08 PM Jeff Kaufman <jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com
<mailto:jeff.t.kaufman@gmail.com>> wrote:
Here's a 1989 recording the Portland OR dance did in a recording studio:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k> . I see almost all "outer arms
making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, lady's left hand behind
gent's shoulder" hold (hereafter 'ballroom' though as illustrated above
that's a fraught term). At 0:58 and then again at 1:28, 1:58, 3:02 etc there's a
couple with a symmetrical hold where they each have their right hand around the
other's waist, with their left hands joined low in the center. I didn't watch the
whole video, so it's possible there were other couples that did other holds at some
point?
Here's 1987 in Mendocino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q> . I only see ballroom holds.
Here's 1986 in Cambridge MA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q> . Outdoor demo performance. Almost
all ballroom holds, but at 4:04 the couple all the way on the right has outer hands in a
forearm hold (which they continue doing in later iterations of the dance).
Here's 1986 in Francestown NH: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE> At 0:30 I see two ballroom holds and
two where the outer arms are holding a bit above the elbows. At 1:06 I see two ballroom
holds, one of the hold from 0:30, and one of the symmetrical holds I described in the
Portland OR video, though note that this is many of the same couples. Jumping ahead to
8:38 I see three ballroom holds and where the outer hands hold each other's forearms.
Separately, I really like how enthusiastic the balances are: you can feel the room shake
through to the camera!
Here's one labeled 1986 Chico Contra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg> Almost all ballroom holds, except for
one couple where the lady's left hand is on the back of the gent's right arm
instead of behind his shoulder (doesn't look comfortable to me!)
Here's 1976 in Bloomington: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w> . Looks like a performance. At 0:10
I see three couples where the outer hands are joined as in ballroom, the gent's right
hand is around the lady's waist, and the lady's left hand is again on the back of
the gent's right arm. Then there's one couple doing the symmetrical swing with
left hands joined low between their bodies. Same again at 0:44, 1:11, etc.
Here's 1967 somewhere in New England: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM> . I see ballroom at 0:35, 0:37, 3:15,
3:16, 5:08, 5:10. Then at 1:05 (and then again in the background at 5:11, and then again
at 5:23 and 5:33) I see a forearm hold with arms that are straighter than I'm used to.
At 2:08 I see a hold where the gents hands are both around the lady's waist and the
lady's hands are both over the tops of the gent's shoulders.
Here's 1981 in Belmont MA, but it's an hour and I'm going to bed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo>
Jeff
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 4:33 PM Stein, Robert <steinr(a)msu.edu
<mailto:steinr@msu.edu>> wrote:
The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same variety of swinging styles
from ballroom to various barrel holds.
Bob
On Mar 26, 2024, at 16:13, Jeff Kaufman via
Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Looking through old media to figure out what swing positions were common sounds like fun!
I think video might be more promising? Here's a few annotations of a video, where
the numbers are timestamps and each bullet describes the couple that's in the middle
of the frame at the timestamp. I only counted each couple once:
Cambridge MA, 1990: https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC
<https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC>
* 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms, gent's right hand behind lady's
back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm
* 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
* 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's left hand on gent's shoulder,
gent's right hand on lady's back
* 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out, lady's left hand behind gent's
shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back
* 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on backs with lady above gent
* 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's inner hand on lady's back,
lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder
* 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out, gent's inner hand on lady's back,
lady's inner hand behind gent's arm
* 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's shoulders, gent's left hand behind
lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back
* 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
* 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
The "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I think of as the
standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of variation.
I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975 clip, but there were too many cuts. The 1964
video would be another one to try?
Jeff
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Responding to various points.
And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always regional differences (and,
perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really about?)
I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a friendly tone and desire for
friendly discussion, as that's what's intended.
I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking approximately the beginning
of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and Swing, and Zesty Contras - and
absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings.
The short version: despite being contemporaries and the books published a year apart
(1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different swing holds, where:
- a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the small of the back (Sanella) or a
little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the cover which he points out in the
description is what to follow)
- a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom palm-up supporting the lady's
right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper arm (Jennings, with Sanella
noting the variation as well) - with a lady's hands
- a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper arm (Jennings) or
"behind the upper arm" (Sanella)
So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing position, and holds described
by both did include women holding men in ways that were supporting from behind rather than
everyone agreeing that their hand is "resting on top" as with other couples'
dances.
Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back around to that after I touch
on some specific points:
RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against the Leftie’s supporting
right hand."
Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back" may be describing "the
feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely experienced people who lean
back.
RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing together because you are
limited to the length of the shorter arm."
I don't think this is accurate.
This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade isn't small, and
adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size differences. There's always
exceptions, sure.
Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing shoulderblades. Then again, they
have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's less support that's needed to be
given.
RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on
top of me."
I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in the "middle" of the
back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in the middle is partially off
the shoulderblade.
I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the hand often can naturally curve
around the shoulderblade.
RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are coming in
at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in collision. SOMEONE has to
adjust up or down AND forward."
I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think everyone on this list here has been
dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't a thing I've really
experienced or heard discussed.
So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but people just ... do it?
As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing from a bit of an under-scooping
motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm comes in more open and I wait half a moment
to let the lark engage their right arm before I try and wrap my right arm around.
It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a good connection on a star
promenade.
Further to this point, if I were using the traditional "woman left arm rests on
top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged, anyway.
Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra bit of work in the dance of
that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, and timing their own move --- and I
wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed.
This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work as wellwhen it's not
taller men dancing with shorter women.
Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
Some men dance with men, some women with women.
Etc.
So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a swing work for both
people" as a universal and generic skill.
Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more automatic than it may seem!
Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic aspects of contra, I teach
(and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to adjust themselves to every partner
and neighbor, and find a happy medium that works for both people.
If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my shoulderblade, that's fine
and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing speed.
I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer can adjust their style to
meet another dancer's differences in size, height, ability, tiredness, injury, age,
etc.
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein <nschlein(a)gmail.com
<mailto:nschlein@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Julian,
Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other persons back, I agree
with Joe.
The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things.
First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the length of the shorter
arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long arms—putting your palm in the middle
of my back means you’re going to be on top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want
space, and I’m not OK with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space.
(Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants their hand on
my back.)
Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are coming in at the
same point and going to the same point, resulting in collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up
or down AND forward. This means a changed angle for one person, and due to the change in
angle a shortening of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby
pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts the other
person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a non-natural position, which
is likely to be physically uncomfortable and potentially harmful.
Neal Schlein
Librarian, MSLIS
On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Hi Joe,
You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I teach it, lots
of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a complaint about it.
That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager robins
pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place."
That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting Robin's
hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, it's not the only
way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just workshopped the issue with my partner
in the living room to test a variety of height and holds out to confirm what you were
saying, as well.)
The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the backs of each
other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when swinging. One usually winds
up _closer_ when hands are resting on shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly
stronger and the other is fairly petite.
I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I have an evening too
many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient support. And I've heard plenty
of dancers say similar.
That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing hold works better for
you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? But I might recommend considering
workshopping swings further, because what you're requesting is counter to prevailing
teaching. If I understand correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing
something.)
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com
<mailto:contradancerjoe@gmail.com>> wrote:
Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the lark's, but an
alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years now, where the
robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on the lark's back as the lark
has their right hand on the robin's back. I know at least one prominent caller who
teaches this hold in their newbie workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to
do this to provide equal support in the swing.
While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are not grossly
mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this without their elbows
occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent backward by eager robins pressing my
elbow in to get their elbow in the right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to
pain, it pretty much eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight
back" by pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially refusing
the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow, so it kills any
enjoyment in that swing.
Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major support in a swing,
the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff described, or even a mirror of the
ballroom where the lark's arm is on top are much better opportunities. A robin whose
arm is longer than their lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a
ballroom hold (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the
shoulder.
--jh--
On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com
<mailto:juliancallsdances@gmail.com>> wrote:
JJ,
I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry of a ballroom hold
provides to reinforce what role one is dancing.
Joe,
I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having elbows occupy the
same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture). That said, it raises
the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that everyone has different physical needs
and finding happy mediums is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with
ballroom hold handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned
callers - can anticipate every need or difference.
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcgj95(a)gmail.com
<mailto:jcgj95@gmail.com>> wrote:
Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the switch" in
the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end on (assuming
we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left arm is the
"pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is the "pointy
arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell myself
"I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes
over and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅.
I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles without warning
through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the traditional ballroom figure.
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
"At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role actually
swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm."
When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially doing it as you
said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I encountered. I remember being surprised
sometime around 2006-2007 when I ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they
wanted to do the standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were
dancing the lady's role in the standard way?
Jeff
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way that indicated it
was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I have to lean over to do it, as
that puts my face pretty close to theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult
to do without frontal contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all
that aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable
than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role (using the
terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), we'd almost
universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is symmetrical and very
stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around the other's back and both left
arms go over/around the other's right arm, bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between
you, and clasp left hands around each other's forearms between your bodies. At the
time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a
lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a
particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first and then did it
with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our neighbors. We got some pretty surprised
looks from our neighbors when we swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that
partner and I were an item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
change...
In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when they're happy
to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the extreme to be going up
an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and looks of disgust as a guy dancing the
robbin...enough that I haven't returned to the dance weekend where that happened in
Fall 2022, even though it was pretty great in other ways.
The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position where the robbin
tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same place where the lark's hand
is on theirs. I know some people actually teach it this way, I guess as some kind of
equality thing. It's terrible, because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have
to occupy the same space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is
outside mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow,
eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain before I can
either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my back, or pull my arm up to
rest it on their arm in a mirror of the traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince
everyone to stop teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can
hurt the lark.
One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no communication is, if the
robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the lark's, they rest their left arm on
the lark's right, extending the entire length of the arm and then reaching around/over
the lark's shoulder to provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at
least, if they are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also
light enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more
connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only pull
forward.
--jh--
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about this email thread and
observations.
Short and simple:
A "barrel hold" swing:
- Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
- One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with his left arm curved
into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we engaged in the swing hold, he
placed his left arm in place, and it guided things in. It worked pretty well for me, at
least as an experienced dancer.
In dance,
-Julian Blechner
On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above the lark’s in the
modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that having that rule/understanding
might make it easier for dancers to make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom
because the robin’s arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand
is typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things like a
balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm orientations the same
in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if I were just learning this swing.
Becky
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To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching
via Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs> from 0:05 to 0:15 - for spacing -- and
I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I think Becky found
interesting about the variation we're working on is that it retains the "pointy
hands", which can be useful.
The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: you say when you tried
the swing variation our group has been experimenting with (visual at
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
<https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0>
)
-- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that are holding just above
the elbow.
But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his left hand my right
hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use in this video of yours - (but in
your case, your left hand and her right hand.)
Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended:
https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
<https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198>
Starts at 3:18.
Thoughts?
Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold, that in this video
referenced by Allan -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8> or in the photo I shared above via
Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's arm?
Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of the two
dancing partners?
(for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm
still be above the Lark's?
Thanks all!
Kat K in Halifax
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<mailto:contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net> John Sweeney via Contra Callers
Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
Hi Kat,
Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When you mentioned
Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a Foreshortened Hold in my video and
brings you closer together rather than further apart.
I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras and love it. I was
surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra dance at The Flurry and realised
that nobody else was using it!
We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it really worked.
With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough connection to have a
really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt that my hand might slide down. With
my right arm on top Karen felt that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I
wasn't gripping - it was just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest problem is that people
are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! People misunderstand
and lean back or sideways. If people control their own weight then all the connection has
to do is counter centrifugal force and that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the spot BY THEMSELVES.
Then when they connect they keep their own balance and weight.
I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive Strain Injury from
another style of dance that is taught badly, and then lots of Aerials:
https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT
<https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT> - maybe I shouldn't have
started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford to let people damage my
shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at high speeds with no problem. Whenever
someone leans back or sideways I just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that
they have to take their own weight or fall over.
Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will find it is much less
strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to do it without any
problem. It is just a different feel and takes some getting used to.
Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh Swing
(http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh
<http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh> ) - you could always try the
Forearm Swing instead (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked
<http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked> ) - same principle, but
further apart so no bodily contact.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com <mailto:john@modernjive.com>
01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk <http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/> for Dancing in Kent
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becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and lack of physical air
space between them. The huge difference between a swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to
dance a waltz or a swing dance with someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing
to swing with EVERY opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to
dance. That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying yes to one
person.
As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group a few years ago,
MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance line specifically to avoid having
to swing with him. The most important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of
conduct which we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would
not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been women
who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance not KNOWING whether
there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite a lot to expect them to do a
ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom
hold might make contra feel safer, especially for new dancers.
I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the difference.
Becky
On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com
<mailto:juliancallsdances@gmail.com>> wrote:
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold feels more
"intimate" than other holds?
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Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold feels more
"intimate" than other holds?
Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our minds with couples
dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?
Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed arms has my hands
bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me, though sometimes barrel holds can be
done with a bit more space - though I wouldn't say the default)
Is it something else?
Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to an alternate
swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?
In dance,
Julian Blechner
He/him
Western Mass
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1:01 p.m.
Richard is right – good technique and it should feel almost weightless! :-)
BTW: someone keeps referring to me or quoting me as “Joe”. I am “John”. :-) :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
12:56 p.m.
I think you're trying to calculate two 150lb dancers, but you've calculated
for a 300lb mass, but you shouldn't do that doubling. I'm exerting enough
force to provide your centripetal force and vice versa. Those forces oppose
one another, but they don't add up. That is a factor of two error.
I have to think more about one foot radius and 45 rpm and read upthread
more.
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 12:25 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I was curious about John's "The
shoulder-blade connection is purely to
counteract centrifugal force. That is not normally a lot of force, so it
shouldn’t make you tired." above. While ideally you could measure this, I
don't think swinging with a scale between your hand and partner's back and
your hand would be comfortable, and it would be hard to read. Let's try a
bit of physics.
If you like to swing quickly you might go 4.5x around in twelve beats,
which is 45rpm at a tempo of 120bpm. Let's guess the people each weigh
150lb and approximate them as point masses two feet apart. Doing some math:
r = 1ft
m = 300lb
ω = 45rpm = 0.75 hz
v = ω2πr
= 0.75 hz * 2π * 1ft
= 4.7 ft/s
F = mv^2/r
= 300lbm * (4.7 ft/s)^2 / 1ft
= 300lbm * 23ft / s^2
= 6662lbm * ft / s^2
1lbf = 32.17 lbm * ft / s^2
1lbm = 0.0311 lbf * s^2 / ft
F = 6662 lbm * ft / s^2
= 6662 * 0.0311 lbf
= 207lbf
This says you need ~216lb of force to hold the dancers together! If you're
rotating more slowly, perhaps 2.5x in twelve beats, it's still a
significant 64lb.
Jeff
PS: If you want something you can play with, this is (rpm/3 * 3.14)**2 *
weight * 1/32.2
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:08 PM Jeff Kaufman <jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Here's a 1989 recording the Portland OR dance
did in a recording studio:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k . I see almost all "outer
arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, lady's left hand
behind gent's shoulder" hold (hereafter 'ballroom' though as
illustrated
above that's a fraught term). At 0:58 and then again at 1:28, 1:58, 3:02
etc there's a couple with a symmetrical hold where they each have their
right hand around the other's waist, with their left hands joined low in
the center. I didn't watch the whole video, so it's possible there were
other couples that did other holds at some point?
Here's 1987 in Mendocino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q .
I only see ballroom holds.
Here's 1986 in Cambridge MA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q
. Outdoor demo performance. Almost all ballroom holds, but at 4:04 the
couple all the way on the right has outer hands in a forearm hold (which
they continue doing in later iterations of the dance).
Here's 1986 in Francestown NH:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE At 0:30 I see two ballroom
holds and two where the outer arms are holding a bit above the elbows. At
1:06 I see two ballroom holds, one of the hold from 0:30, and one of the
symmetrical holds I described in the Portland OR video, though note that
this is many of the same couples. Jumping ahead to 8:38 I see three
ballroom holds and where the outer hands hold each other's forearms.
Separately, I really like how enthusiastic the balances are: you can feel
the room shake through to the camera!
Here's one labeled 1986 Chico Contra:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg Almost all ballroom holds,
except for one couple where the lady's left hand is on the back of the
gent's right arm instead of behind his shoulder (doesn't look comfortable
to me!)
Here's 1976 in Bloomington: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w
. Looks like a performance. At 0:10 I see three couples where the outer
hands are joined as in ballroom, the gent's right hand is around the lady's
waist, and the lady's left hand is again on the back of the gent's right
arm. Then there's one couple doing the symmetrical swing with left hands
joined low between their bodies. Same again at 0:44, 1:11, etc.
Here's 1967 somewhere in New England:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM . I see ballroom at 0:35,
0:37, 3:15, 3:16, 5:08, 5:10. Then at 1:05 (and then again in the
background at 5:11, and then again at 5:23 and 5:33) I see a forearm hold
with arms that are straighter than I'm used to. At 2:08 I see a hold where
the gents hands are both around the lady's waist and the lady's hands are
both over the tops of the gent's shoulders.
Here's 1981 in Belmont MA, but it's an hour and I'm going to bed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo
Jeff
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 4:33 PM Stein, Robert <steinr(a)msu.edu> wrote:
> The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same variety of
> swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel holds.
> Bob
>
> > On Mar 26, 2024, at 16:13, Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >
> > Looking through old media to figure out what swing positions were
> common sounds like fun! I think video might be more promising? Here's a
> few annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and each
> bullet describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame at the
> timestamp. I only counted each couple once:
> >
> > Cambridge MA, 1990: https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC
> > * 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms, gent's right hand behind
> lady's back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm
> > * 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's
> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
> > * 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's left hand on gent's
> shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back
> > * 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out, lady's left hand
> behind gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back
> > * 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on backs with lady above
> gent
> > * 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's inner hand on
> lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder
> > * 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out, gent's inner hand on
> lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm
> > * 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's shoulders, gent's left hand
> behind lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back
> > * 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's
> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
> > * 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's
> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
> >
> > The "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's
back,
> lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I think of as the
> standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of
> variation.
> >
> > I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975 clip, but there were too
> many cuts. The 1964 video would be another one to try?
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > Responding to various points.
> > And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always regional
> differences (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really
> about?)
> > I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a friendly tone
> and desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's intended.
> >
> > I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking
> approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and
> Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings.
> > The short version: despite being contemporaries and the books
> published a year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different
> swing holds, where:
> > - a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the small of the back
> (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the cover
> which he points out in the description is what to follow)
> > - a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom palm-up supporting
> the lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper arm
> (Jennings, with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a lady's hands
> > - a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper arm (Jennings)
> or "behind the upper arm" (Sanella)
> >
> > So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing position,
> and holds described by both did include women holding men in ways that were
> supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that their hand is
> "resting on top" as with other couples' dances.
> > Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back around to that
> after I touch on some specific points:
> >
> > RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against the
> Leftie’s supporting right hand."
> > Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back" may be describing
"the
> feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely experienced
> people who lean back.
> >
> > RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing together
> because you are limited to the length of the shorter arm."
> > I don't think this is accurate.
> > This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade isn't
> small, and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size
> differences. There's always exceptions, sure.
> > Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing shoulderblades.
> Then again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's less
> support that's needed to be given.
> >
> > RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re
> going to be on top of me."
> > I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in the "middle"
> of the back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in the middle
> is partially off the shoulderblade.
> > I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the hand often
> can naturally curve around the shoulderblade.
> >
> > RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms
> are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in
> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward."
> > I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think everyone on this
> list here has been dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't a
thing
> I've really experienced or heard discussed.
> > So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but people just
> ... do it?
> > As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing from a bit of
> an under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm comes in
> more open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their right arm
> before I try and wrap my right arm around.
> > It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a good connection on
> a star promenade.
> >
> > Further to this point, if I were using the traditional "woman left arm
> rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged,
anyway.
> > Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra bit of work
> in the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, and
> timing their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed.
> >
> > This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work as
> wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women.
> > Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
> > Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
> > Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
> > Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
> > Some men dance with men, some women with women.
> > Etc.
> >
> > So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a swing work
> for both people" as a universal and generic skill.
> > Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more automatic than it
> may seem!
> >
> > Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic aspects of
> contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to
> adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium
> that works for both people.
> > If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my shoulderblade,
> that's fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing speed.
> > I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer can adjust
> their style to meet another dancer's differences in size, height, ability,
> tiredness, injury, age, etc.
> >
> > In dance,
> > Julian Blechner
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein <nschlein(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Julian,
> > Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other
> persons back, I agree with Joe.
> >
> > The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things.
> >
> > First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the
> length of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long
> arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on
> top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK
> with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space.
> (Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants
> their hand on my back.)
> >
> > Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are
> coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in
> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a
> changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening
> of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby
> pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts
> the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a
> non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and
> potentially harmful.
> >
> > Neal Schlein
> > Librarian, MSLIS
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > Hi Joe,
> >
> > You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I
> teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a
> complaint about it.
> >
> > That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager
> robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place."
> >
> > That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting
> Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping,
> it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just
> workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety
> of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.)
> >
> > The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the
> backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when
> swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on
> shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is
> fairly petite.
> >
> > I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I
> have an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient
> support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar.
> >
> > That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing
> hold works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah?
> But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what
> you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand
> correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.)
> >
> > In dance,
> > Julian Blechner
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <
> contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the lark's,
> but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years
> now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on
> the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I
> know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie
> workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide
> equal support in the swing.
> >
> > While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are
> not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this
> without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent
> backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the
> right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much
> eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by
> pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially
> refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow,
> so it kills any enjoyment in that swing.
> >
> > Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major
> support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff
> described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top
> are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their
> lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold
> (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder.
> >
> > --jh--
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner <
> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > JJ,
> >
> > I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry
> of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing.
> >
> > Joe,
> >
> > I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having elbows
> occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture).
> That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that
> everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our goal
> for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as
> such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers -
> can anticipate every need or difference.
> >
> > In dance,
> > Julian Blechner
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcgj95(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the
> switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to"
end on
> (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left
> arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is
the
> "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously
tell
> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle
memory just takes over
> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅.
> >
> > I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles
> without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the
> traditional ballroom figure.
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role
> actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm."
> >
> > When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially
> doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I
> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I
> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the
> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were
> dancing the lady's role in the standard way?
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way
> that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I
> have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs
> (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if
> one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if
> you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than
> ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
> >
> > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role
> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment),
> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which
is
> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around
> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm,
> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around
> each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never
> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm
> not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a
> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first
> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we
> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an
> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
> change...
> >
> > In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when
> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the
> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and
> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't
> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though
> it was pretty great in other ways.
> >
> > The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position
> where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same
> place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually
> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible,
> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same
> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside
> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow,
> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain
> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my
> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the
> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop
> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt
> the lark.
> >
> > One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no
> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the
> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire
> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to
> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they
> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light
> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more
> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only
> pull forward.
> >
> > --jh--
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about
> this email thread and observations.
> >
> > Short and simple:
> > A "barrel hold" swing:
> > - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
> > - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with
> his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we
> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided
> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer.
> >
> > In dance,
> > -Julian Blechner
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above the
> lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that
> having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the
> transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is
> always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is
> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things
> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm
> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if
> I were just learning this swing.
> > Becky
> >
> >> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for
> spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I
> think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that
> it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful.
> >>
> >> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message:
> you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting
> with (visual at
>
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
> )
> >> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that
> are holding just above the elbow.
> >>
> >> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his
> left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use
> in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right
> hand.)
> >> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended:
> >> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
> >> Starts at 3:18.
> >> Thoughts?
> >>
> >> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
> >>
> >> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold,
> that in this video referenced by Allan -
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 or in the photo I shared
> above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's
> arm?
> >>
> >> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative
> height of the two dancing partners?
> >> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the
> Robin's arm still be above the Lark's?
> >>
> >> Thanks all!
> >> Kat K in Halifax
> >>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers
> >>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
> >>> Hi Kat,
> >>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When
> you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a
> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than
> further apart.
> >>>
> >>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras
> and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra
> dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it!
> >>>
> >>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it
> really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough
> connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt
> that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it
> was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just
> awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
> >>>
> >>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest
> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your
weight!
> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own
> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and
> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
> >>>
> >>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the
> spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and
> weight.
> >>>
> >>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much
> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly,
> and then lots of Aerials:
> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I shouldn't
> have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford to let
> people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at high speeds
> with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I just slow the
> Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take their own
> weight or fall over.
> >>>
> >>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will
> find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
> >>>
> >>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to
> do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some
> getting used to.
> >>>
> >>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh
> Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you
> could always try the Forearm Swing instead (
> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same principle,
> but further apart so no bodily contact.
> >>>
> >>> Happy dancing,
> >>> John
> >>>
> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
> 07802 940 574
> >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
> >>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and
> lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a
> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with
> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY
> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance.
> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying
> yes to one person.
> >>>
> >>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group
> a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance
> line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most important
> intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which we used
> to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would not agree
> to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been
> women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance
> not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite
> a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I
> am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra feel
> safer, especially for new dancers.
> >>>
> >>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the
> difference.
> >>>
> >>> Becky
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner <
> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom
> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom
> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
> >>>
> >>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our
> minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?
> >>>
> >>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer,
> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to
> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space -
> though I wouldn't say the default)
> >>>
> >>> Is it something else?
> >>>
> >>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution
> to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?
> >>>
> >>> In dance,
> >>> Julian Blechner
> >>> He/him
> >>> Western Mass
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
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1:03 p.m.
Hi Chris,
Thanks for reviewing the calculation! Imagine that I hold you around your
back with both hands, and you put your hands up in the air and enjoy the
ride. While I don't think we could get anywhere near 4.5x around in 12
beats if you did that, do you agree that where my hands meet your back I'd
need to provide both enough force for our combined weight?
(I'm not claiming each person needs to provide ~200lb, but that this total
force must be covered by the couple somehow)
Jeff
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:56 PM Chris Lahey <clahey(a)clahey.net> wrote:
I think you're trying to calculate two 150lb
dancers, but you've
calculated for a 300lb mass, but you shouldn't do that doubling. I'm
exerting enough force to provide your centripetal force and vice versa.
Those forces oppose one another, but they don't add up. That is a factor of
two error.
I have to think more about one foot radius and 45 rpm and read upthread
more.
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 12:25 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I was curious about John's "The
shoulder-blade connection is purely to
counteract centrifugal force. That is not normally a lot of force, so it
shouldn’t make you tired." above. While ideally you could measure this, I
don't think swinging with a scale between your hand and partner's back and
your hand would be comfortable, and it would be hard to read. Let's try a
bit of physics.
If you like to swing quickly you might go 4.5x around in twelve beats,
which is 45rpm at a tempo of 120bpm. Let's guess the people each weigh
150lb and approximate them as point masses two feet apart. Doing some math:
r = 1ft
m = 300lb
ω = 45rpm = 0.75 hz
v = ω2πr
= 0.75 hz * 2π * 1ft
= 4.7 ft/s
F = mv^2/r
= 300lbm * (4.7 ft/s)^2 / 1ft
= 300lbm * 23ft / s^2
= 6662lbm * ft / s^2
1lbf = 32.17 lbm * ft / s^2
1lbm = 0.0311 lbf * s^2 / ft
F = 6662 lbm * ft / s^2
= 6662 * 0.0311 lbf
= 207lbf
This says you need ~216lb of force to hold the dancers together! If
you're rotating more slowly, perhaps 2.5x in twelve beats, it's still a
significant 64lb.
Jeff
PS: If you want something you can play with, this is (rpm/3 * 3.14)**2 *
weight * 1/32.2
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:08 PM Jeff Kaufman <jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Here's a 1989 recording the Portland OR dance
did in a recording studio:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k . I see almost all "outer
arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, lady's left hand
behind gent's shoulder" hold (hereafter 'ballroom' though as
illustrated
above that's a fraught term). At 0:58 and then again at 1:28, 1:58, 3:02
etc there's a couple with a symmetrical hold where they each have their
right hand around the other's waist, with their left hands joined low in
the center. I didn't watch the whole video, so it's possible there were
other couples that did other holds at some point?
Here's 1987 in Mendocino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q
. I only see ballroom holds.
Here's 1986 in Cambridge MA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q
. Outdoor demo performance. Almost all ballroom holds, but at 4:04 the
couple all the way on the right has outer hands in a forearm hold (which
they continue doing in later iterations of the dance).
Here's 1986 in Francestown NH:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE At 0:30 I see two ballroom
holds and two where the outer arms are holding a bit above the elbows. At
1:06 I see two ballroom holds, one of the hold from 0:30, and one of the
symmetrical holds I described in the Portland OR video, though note that
this is many of the same couples. Jumping ahead to 8:38 I see three
ballroom holds and where the outer hands hold each other's forearms.
Separately, I really like how enthusiastic the balances are: you can feel
the room shake through to the camera!
Here's one labeled 1986 Chico Contra:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg Almost all ballroom holds,
except for one couple where the lady's left hand is on the back of the
gent's right arm instead of behind his shoulder (doesn't look comfortable
to me!)
Here's 1976 in Bloomington: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w
. Looks like a performance. At 0:10 I see three couples where the outer
hands are joined as in ballroom, the gent's right hand is around the lady's
waist, and the lady's left hand is again on the back of the gent's right
arm. Then there's one couple doing the symmetrical swing with left hands
joined low between their bodies. Same again at 0:44, 1:11, etc.
Here's 1967 somewhere in New England:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM . I see ballroom at 0:35,
0:37, 3:15, 3:16, 5:08, 5:10. Then at 1:05 (and then again in the
background at 5:11, and then again at 5:23 and 5:33) I see a forearm hold
with arms that are straighter than I'm used to. At 2:08 I see a hold where
the gents hands are both around the lady's waist and the lady's hands are
both over the tops of the gent's shoulders.
Here's 1981 in Belmont MA, but it's an hour and I'm going to bed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo
Jeff
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 4:33 PM Stein, Robert <steinr(a)msu.edu> wrote:
> The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same variety
> of swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel holds.
> Bob
>
> > On Mar 26, 2024, at 16:13, Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >
> > Looking through old media to figure out what swing positions were
> common sounds like fun! I think video might be more promising? Here's a
> few annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and each
> bullet describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame at the
> timestamp. I only counted each couple once:
> >
> > Cambridge MA, 1990: https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC
> > * 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms, gent's right hand behind
> lady's back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm
> > * 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's
> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
> > * 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's left hand on gent's
> shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back
> > * 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out, lady's left hand
> behind gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back
> > * 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on backs with lady above
> gent
> > * 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's inner hand on
> lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder
> > * 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out, gent's inner hand on
> lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm
> > * 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's shoulders, gent's left hand
> behind lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back
> > * 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's
> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
> > * 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's
> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
> >
> > The "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's
back,
> lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I think of as the
> standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of
> variation.
> >
> > I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975 clip, but there were too
> many cuts. The 1964 video would be another one to try?
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > Responding to various points.
> > And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always regional
> differences (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really
> about?)
> > I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a friendly
> tone and desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's intended.
> >
> > I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking
> approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and
> Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings.
> > The short version: despite being contemporaries and the books
> published a year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different
> swing holds, where:
> > - a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the small of the back
> (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the cover
> which he points out in the description is what to follow)
> > - a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom palm-up supporting
> the lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper arm
> (Jennings, with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a lady's hands
> > - a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper arm
> (Jennings) or "behind the upper arm" (Sanella)
> >
> > So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing position,
> and holds described by both did include women holding men in ways that were
> supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that their hand is
> "resting on top" as with other couples' dances.
> > Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back around to
> that after I touch on some specific points:
> >
> > RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against the
> Leftie’s supporting right hand."
> > Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back" may be describing
> "the feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely experienced
> people who lean back.
> >
> > RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing together
> because you are limited to the length of the shorter arm."
> > I don't think this is accurate.
> > This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade isn't
> small, and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size
> differences. There's always exceptions, sure.
> > Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing shoulderblades.
> Then again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's less
> support that's needed to be given.
> >
> > RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re
> going to be on top of me."
> > I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in the "middle"
> of the back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in the middle
> is partially off the shoulderblade.
> > I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the hand often
> can naturally curve around the shoulderblade.
> >
> > RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms
> are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in
> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward."
> > I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think everyone on this
> list here has been dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't a
thing
> I've really experienced or heard discussed.
> > So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but people just
> ... do it?
> > As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing from a bit
> of an under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm comes
> in more open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their right
> arm before I try and wrap my right arm around.
> > It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a good connection
> on a star promenade.
> >
> > Further to this point, if I were using the traditional "woman left
> arm rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged,
> anyway.
> > Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra bit of
> work in the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, and
> timing their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed.
> >
> > This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work as
> wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women.
> > Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
> > Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
> > Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
> > Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
> > Some men dance with men, some women with women.
> > Etc.
> >
> > So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a swing work
> for both people" as a universal and generic skill.
> > Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more automatic than it
> may seem!
> >
> > Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic aspects of
> contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to
> adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium
> that works for both people.
> > If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my shoulderblade,
> that's fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing speed.
> > I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer can
> adjust their style to meet another dancer's differences in size, height,
> ability, tiredness, injury, age, etc.
> >
> > In dance,
> > Julian Blechner
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein <nschlein(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Julian,
> > Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other
> persons back, I agree with Joe.
> >
> > The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things.
> >
> > First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the
> length of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long
> arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on
> top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK
> with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space.
> (Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants
> their hand on my back.)
> >
> > Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are
> coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in
> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a
> changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening
> of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby
> pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts
> the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a
> non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and
> potentially harmful.
> >
> > Neal Schlein
> > Librarian, MSLIS
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > Hi Joe,
> >
> > You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I
> teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a
> complaint about it.
> >
> > That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager
> robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place."
> >
> > That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting
> Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping,
> it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just
> workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety
> of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.)
> >
> > The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the
> backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when
> swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on
> shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is
> fairly petite.
> >
> > I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I
> have an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient
> support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar.
> >
> > That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing
> hold works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah?
> But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what
> you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand
> correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.)
> >
> > In dance,
> > Julian Blechner
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <
> contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the lark's,
> but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years
> now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on
> the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I
> know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie
> workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide
> equal support in the swing.
> >
> > While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are
> not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this
> without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent
> backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the
> right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much
> eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by
> pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially
> refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow,
> so it kills any enjoyment in that swing.
> >
> > Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major
> support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff
> described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top
> are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their
> lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold
> (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder.
> >
> > --jh--
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner <
> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > JJ,
> >
> > I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry
> of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing.
> >
> > Joe,
> >
> > I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having
> elbows occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or
> picture). That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall
> topic, that everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums
> is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold
> handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned
> callers - can anticipate every need or difference.
> >
> > In dance,
> > Julian Blechner
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcgj95(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the
> switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to"
end on
> (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left
> arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is
the
> "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously
tell
> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle
memory just takes over
> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅.
> >
> > I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles
> without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the
> traditional ballroom figure.
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's
> role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm."
> >
> > When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially
> doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I
> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I
> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the
> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were
> dancing the lady's role in the standard way?
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way
> that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I
> have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs
> (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if
> one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if
> you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than
> ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
> >
> > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role
> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment),
> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which
is
> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around
> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm,
> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around
> each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never
> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm
> not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a
> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first
> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we
> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an
> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
> change...
> >
> > In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when
> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the
> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and
> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't
> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though
> it was pretty great in other ways.
> >
> > The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position
> where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same
> place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually
> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible,
> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same
> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside
> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow,
> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain
> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my
> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the
> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop
> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt
> the lark.
> >
> > One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no
> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the
> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire
> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to
> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they
> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light
> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more
> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only
> pull forward.
> >
> > --jh--
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about
> this email thread and observations.
> >
> > Short and simple:
> > A "barrel hold" swing:
> > - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
> > - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with
> his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we
> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided
> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer.
> >
> > In dance,
> > -Julian Blechner
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above the
> lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that
> having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the
> transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is
> always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is
> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things
> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm
> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if
> I were just learning this swing.
> > Becky
> >
> >> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for
> spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I
> think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that
> it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful.
> >>
> >> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message:
> you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting
> with (visual at
>
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
> )
> >> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that
> are holding just above the elbow.
> >>
> >> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his
> left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use
> in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right
> hand.)
> >> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended:
> >> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
> >> Starts at 3:18.
> >> Thoughts?
> >>
> >> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
> >>
> >> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the
> hold, that in this video referenced by Allan -
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 or in the photo I
> shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the
> Lark's arm?
> >>
> >> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative
> height of the two dancing partners?
> >> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the
> Robin's arm still be above the Lark's?
> >>
> >> Thanks all!
> >> Kat K in Halifax
> >>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers
> >>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
> >>> Hi Kat,
> >>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo.
> When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a
> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than
> further apart.
> >>>
> >>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras
> and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra
> dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it!
> >>>
> >>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it
> really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough
> connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt
> that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it
> was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just
> awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
> >>>
> >>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest
> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your
weight!
> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own
> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and
> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
> >>>
> >>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the
> spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and
> weight.
> >>>
> >>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much
> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly,
> and then lots of Aerials:
> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I shouldn't
> have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford to let
> people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at high speeds
> with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I just slow the
> Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take their own
> weight or fall over.
> >>>
> >>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will
> find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
> >>>
> >>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to
> do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some
> getting used to.
> >>>
> >>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh
> Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you
> could always try the Forearm Swing instead (
> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same
> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact.
> >>>
> >>> Happy dancing,
> >>> John
> >>>
> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
> 07802 940 574
> >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
> >>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and
> lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a
> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with
> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY
> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance.
> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying
> yes to one person.
> >>>
> >>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our
> group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra
> dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most
> important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which
> we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would
> not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s
> always been women who have said this to me over the years), when they come
> to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is
> asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes
> at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make
> contra feel safer, especially for new dancers.
> >>>
> >>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the
> difference.
> >>>
> >>> Becky
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner <
> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom
> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom
> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
> >>>
> >>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our
> minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?
> >>>
> >>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer,
> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to
> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space -
> though I wouldn't say the default)
> >>>
> >>> Is it something else?
> >>>
> >>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution
> to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?
> >>>
> >>> In dance,
> >>> Julian Blechner
> >>> He/him
> >>> Western Mass
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >>
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1:17 p.m.
I addressed this in my other email, but this is a good example. In this
case my back is providing 100lbf to your hands.
I also can't imagine being in this position and having centers of mass two
feet apart, but I would want to measure it before making this an argument,
hence going with your numbers.
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 13:15 Jeff Kaufman <jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Chris,
Thanks for reviewing the calculation! Imagine that I hold you around your
back with both hands, and you put your hands up in the air and enjoy the
ride. While I don't think we could get anywhere near 4.5x around in 12
beats if you did that, do you agree that where my hands meet your back I'd
need to provide both enough force for our combined weight?
(I'm not claiming each person needs to provide ~200lb, but that this total
force must be covered by the couple somehow)
Jeff
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:56 PM Chris Lahey <clahey(a)clahey.net> wrote:
> I think you're trying to calculate two 150lb dancers, but you've
> calculated for a 300lb mass, but you shouldn't do that doubling. I'm
> exerting enough force to provide your centripetal force and vice versa.
> Those forces oppose one another, but they don't add up. That is a factor of
> two error.
>
> I have to think more about one foot radius and 45 rpm and read upthread
> more.
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 12:25 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> I was curious about John's "The shoulder-blade connection is purely to
>> counteract centrifugal force. That is not normally a lot of force, so it
>> shouldn’t make you tired." above. While ideally you could measure this, I
>> don't think swinging with a scale between your hand and partner's back
and
>> your hand would be comfortable, and it would be hard to read. Let's try a
>> bit of physics.
>>
>> If you like to swing quickly you might go 4.5x around in twelve beats,
>> which is 45rpm at a tempo of 120bpm. Let's guess the people each weigh
>> 150lb and approximate them as point masses two feet apart. Doing some math:
>>
>> r = 1ft
>> m = 300lb
>> ω = 45rpm = 0.75 hz
>>
>> v = ω2πr
>> = 0.75 hz * 2π * 1ft
>> = 4.7 ft/s
>>
>> F = mv^2/r
>> = 300lbm * (4.7 ft/s)^2 / 1ft
>> = 300lbm * 23ft / s^2
>> = 6662lbm * ft / s^2
>>
>> 1lbf = 32.17 lbm * ft / s^2
>> 1lbm = 0.0311 lbf * s^2 / ft
>>
>> F = 6662 lbm * ft / s^2
>> = 6662 * 0.0311 lbf
>> = 207lbf
>>
>> This says you need ~216lb of force to hold the dancers together! If
>> you're rotating more slowly, perhaps 2.5x in twelve beats, it's still a
>> significant 64lb.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> PS: If you want something you can play with, this is (rpm/3 * 3.14)**2 *
>> weight * 1/32.2
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:08 PM Jeff Kaufman <jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Here's a 1989 recording the Portland OR dance did in a recording
>>> studio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k . I see almost
>>> all "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's
back,
>>> lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold (hereafter
'ballroom' though
>>> as illustrated above that's a fraught term). At 0:58 and then again at
>>> 1:28, 1:58, 3:02 etc there's a couple with a symmetrical hold where they
>>> each have their right hand around the other's waist, with their left
hands
>>> joined low in the center. I didn't watch the whole video, so it's
possible
>>> there were other couples that did other holds at some point?
>>>
>>> Here's 1987 in Mendocino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q
>>> . I only see ballroom holds.
>>>
>>> Here's 1986 in Cambridge MA:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q . Outdoor demo
>>> performance. Almost all ballroom holds, but at 4:04 the couple all the way
>>> on the right has outer hands in a forearm hold (which they continue doing
>>> in later iterations of the dance).
>>>
>>> Here's 1986 in Francestown NH:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE At 0:30 I see two
>>> ballroom holds and two where the outer arms are holding a bit above the
>>> elbows. At 1:06 I see two ballroom holds, one of the hold from 0:30, and
>>> one of the symmetrical holds I described in the Portland OR video, though
>>> note that this is many of the same couples. Jumping ahead to 8:38 I see
>>> three ballroom holds and where the outer hands hold each other's
forearms.
>>> Separately, I really like how enthusiastic the balances are: you can feel
>>> the room shake through to the camera!
>>>
>>> Here's one labeled 1986 Chico Contra:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg Almost all ballroom
>>> holds, except for one couple where the lady's left hand is on the back
of
>>> the gent's right arm instead of behind his shoulder (doesn't look
>>> comfortable to me!)
>>>
>>> Here's 1976 in Bloomington: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w
>>> . Looks like a performance. At 0:10 I see three couples where the outer
>>> hands are joined as in ballroom, the gent's right hand is around the
lady's
>>> waist, and the lady's left hand is again on the back of the gent's
right
>>> arm. Then there's one couple doing the symmetrical swing with left
hands
>>> joined low between their bodies. Same again at 0:44, 1:11, etc.
>>>
>>> Here's 1967 somewhere in New England:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM . I see ballroom at 0:35,
>>> 0:37, 3:15, 3:16, 5:08, 5:10. Then at 1:05 (and then again in the
>>> background at 5:11, and then again at 5:23 and 5:33) I see a forearm hold
>>> with arms that are straighter than I'm used to. At 2:08 I see a hold
where
>>> the gents hands are both around the lady's waist and the lady's hands
are
>>> both over the tops of the gent's shoulders.
>>>
>>> Here's 1981 in Belmont MA, but it's an hour and I'm going to
bed:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 4:33 PM Stein, Robert <steinr(a)msu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same variety
>>>> of swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel holds.
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>> > On Mar 26, 2024, at 16:13, Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Looking through old media to figure out what swing positions were
>>>> common sounds like fun! I think video might be more promising?
Here's a
>>>> few annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and each
>>>> bullet describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame at the
>>>> timestamp. I only counted each couple once:
>>>> >
>>>> > Cambridge MA, 1990:
https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC
>>>> > * 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms, gent's right
hand behind
>>>> lady's back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm
>>>> > * 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind
lady's
>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
>>>> > * 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's left hand on
gent's
>>>> shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back
>>>> > * 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out, lady's left
hand
>>>> behind gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back
>>>> > * 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on backs with lady
above
>>>> gent
>>>> > * 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's inner hand
on
>>>> lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder
>>>> > * 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out, gent's inner
hand on
>>>> lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm
>>>> > * 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's shoulders,
gent's left hand
>>>> behind lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back
>>>> > * 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind
lady's
>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
>>>> > * 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind
lady's
>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
>>>> >
>>>> > The "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind
lady's
>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I
think of as
>>>> the standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of
>>>> variation.
>>>> >
>>>> > I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975 clip, but there were too
>>>> many cuts. The 1964 video would be another one to try?
>>>> >
>>>> > Jeff
>>>> >
>>>> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
<
>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>> > Responding to various points.
>>>> > And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always regional
>>>> differences (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really
>>>> about?)
>>>> > I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a friendly
>>>> tone and desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's
intended.
>>>> >
>>>> > I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking
>>>> approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance
and
>>>> Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry
Jennings.
>>>> > The short version: despite being contemporaries and the books
>>>> published a year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different
>>>> swing holds, where:
>>>> > - a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the small of
the
>>>> back (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the
>>>> cover which he points out in the description is what to follow)
>>>> > - a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom palm-up
supporting
>>>> the lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper
arm
>>>> (Jennings, with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a lady's
hands
>>>> > - a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper arm
>>>> (Jennings) or "behind the upper arm" (Sanella)
>>>> >
>>>> > So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing
>>>> position, and holds described by both did include women holding men in
ways
>>>> that were supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that
their
>>>> hand is "resting on top" as with other couples' dances.
>>>> > Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back around
to
>>>> that after I touch on some specific points:
>>>> >
>>>> > RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against the
>>>> Leftie’s supporting right hand."
>>>> > Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back" may be
describing
>>>> "the feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely
experienced
>>>> people who lean back.
>>>> >
>>>> > RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing
together
>>>> because you are limited to the length of the shorter arm."
>>>> > I don't think this is accurate.
>>>> > This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade
isn't
>>>> small, and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size
>>>> differences. There's always exceptions, sure.
>>>> > Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing
shoulderblades.
>>>> Then again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's less
>>>> support that's needed to be given.
>>>> >
>>>> > RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back means
you’re
>>>> going to be on top of me."
>>>> > I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in the
>>>> "middle" of the back. There's a gap between shoulderblades,
so a hand in
>>>> the middle is partially off the shoulderblade.
>>>> > I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the hand
>>>> often can naturally curve around the shoulderblade.
>>>> >
>>>> > RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then the
arms
>>>> are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting
in
>>>> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward."
>>>> > I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think everyone on
>>>> this list here has been dancing for years, and "elbow
collisions" isn't a
>>>> thing I've really experienced or heard discussed.
>>>> > So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but people just
>>>> ... do it?
>>>> > As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing from a bit
>>>> of an under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm
comes
>>>> in more open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their right
>>>> arm before I try and wrap my right arm around.
>>>> > It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a good
connection
>>>> on a star promenade.
>>>> >
>>>> > Further to this point, if I were using the traditional "woman
left
>>>> arm rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has
engaged,
>>>> anyway.
>>>> > Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra bit of
>>>> work in the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's
movement, and
>>>> timing their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone
unnoticed.
>>>> >
>>>> > This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work as
>>>> wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women.
>>>> > Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
>>>> > Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
>>>> > Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
>>>> > Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
>>>> > Some men dance with men, some women with women.
>>>> > Etc.
>>>> >
>>>> > So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a swing
work
>>>> for both people" as a universal and generic skill.
>>>> > Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more automatic
than it
>>>> may seem!
>>>> >
>>>> > Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic aspects
>>>> of contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to
>>>> adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium
>>>> that works for both people.
>>>> > If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my
shoulderblade,
>>>> that's fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing
speed.
>>>> > I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer can
>>>> adjust their style to meet another dancer's differences in size,
height,
>>>> ability, tiredness, injury, age, etc.
>>>> >
>>>> > In dance,
>>>> > Julian Blechner
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein
<nschlein(a)gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > Hi Julian,
>>>> > Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other
>>>> persons back, I agree with Joe.
>>>> >
>>>> > The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things.
>>>> >
>>>> > First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the
>>>> length of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and
long
>>>> arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be
on
>>>> top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not
OK
>>>> with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space.
>>>> (Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one
wants
>>>> their hand on my back.)
>>>> >
>>>> > Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms
are
>>>> coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in
>>>> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a
>>>> changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a
shortening
>>>> of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby
>>>> pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also
puts
>>>> the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a
>>>> non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and
>>>> potentially harmful.
>>>> >
>>>> > Neal Schlein
>>>> > Librarian, MSLIS
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
<
>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>> > Hi Joe,
>>>> >
>>>> > You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's
how
>>>> I teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've
heard a
>>>> complaint about it.
>>>> >
>>>> > That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward
by eager
>>>> robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place."
>>>> >
>>>> > That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes,
putting
>>>> Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the
clamping,
>>>> it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I
just
>>>> workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a
variety
>>>> of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.)
>>>> >
>>>> > The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on
the
>>>> backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame
when
>>>> swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on
>>>> shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is
>>>> fairly petite.
>>>> >
>>>> > I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I
>>>> have an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing
insufficient
>>>> support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar.
>>>> >
>>>> > That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing
>>>> hold works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is,
yeah?
>>>> But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because
what
>>>> you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand
>>>> correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.)
>>>> >
>>>> > In dance,
>>>> > Julian Blechner
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <
>>>> contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the
>>>> lark's, but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a
number of
>>>> years now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same
>>>> location on the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the
robin's
>>>> back. I know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in
their
>>>> newbie workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this
to
>>>> provide equal support in the swing.
>>>> >
>>>> > While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers
>>>> are not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible
to do
>>>> this without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my
elbow bent
>>>> backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the
>>>> right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty
much
>>>> eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight
back" by
>>>> pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially
>>>> refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my
elbow,
>>>> so it kills any enjoyment in that swing.
>>>> >
>>>> > Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major
>>>> support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff
>>>> described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is
on top
>>>> are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their
>>>> lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom
hold
>>>> (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the
shoulder.
>>>> >
>>>> > --jh--
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner <
>>>> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > JJ,
>>>> >
>>>> > I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the
>>>> asymmetry of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is
dancing.
>>>> >
>>>> > Joe,
>>>> >
>>>> > I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having
>>>> elbows occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person
or
>>>> picture). That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall
>>>> topic, that everyone has different physical needs and finding happy
mediums
>>>> is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold
>>>> handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even
seasoned
>>>> callers - can anticipate every need or difference.
>>>> >
>>>> > In dance,
>>>> > Julian Blechner
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcgj95(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to
"flip the
>>>> switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm
"supposed to" end on
>>>> (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If
my left
>>>> arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my
right arm is the
>>>> "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to
consciously tell
>>>> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my
muscle memory just takes over
>>>> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅.
>>>> >
>>>> > I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching
roles
>>>> without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the
>>>> traditional ballroom figure.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>> > "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the
lady's
>>>> role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the
norm."
>>>> >
>>>> > When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember
initially
>>>> doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I
>>>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when
I
>>>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the
>>>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were
>>>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way?
>>>> >
>>>> > Jeff
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers
<
>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>> > I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a
>>>> way that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially
true
>>>> if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to
>>>> theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without
frontal
>>>> contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all
that
>>>> aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold,
more
>>>> stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
>>>> >
>>>> > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's
role
>>>> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a
moment),
>>>> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral
swing", which is
>>>> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are
around
>>>> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's
right arm,
>>>> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands
around
>>>> each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost
never
>>>> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady.
I'm
>>>> not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a
>>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it
first
>>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
>>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when
we
>>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were
an
>>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
>>>> change...
>>>> >
>>>> > In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role
when
>>>> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and
uncomfortable in the
>>>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and
>>>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't
>>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even
though
>>>> it was pretty great in other ways.
>>>> >
>>>> > The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom
position
>>>> where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the
same
>>>> place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people
actually
>>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's
terrible,
>>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the
same
>>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is
outside
>>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow,
>>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain
>>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from
my
>>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the
>>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop
>>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can
hurt
>>>> the lark.
>>>> >
>>>> > One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no
>>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than
the
>>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending
the entire
>>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder
to
>>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if
they
>>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also
light
>>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make
for more
>>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder,
though. Only
>>>> pull forward.
>>>> >
>>>> > --jh--
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
<
>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>> > At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about
>>>> this email thread and observations.
>>>> >
>>>> > Short and simple:
>>>> > A "barrel hold" swing:
>>>> > - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
>>>> > - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark,
>>>> with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type
position. As we
>>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it
guided
>>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced
dancer.
>>>> >
>>>> > In dance,
>>>> > -Julian Blechner
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
<
>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>> > I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above
the
>>>> lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think
that
>>>> having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make
the
>>>> transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is
>>>> always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is
>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in
things
>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the
hand/arm
>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me
if
>>>> I were just learning this swing.
>>>> > Becky
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra
Callers
>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for
>>>> spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though
what I
>>>> think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is
that
>>>> it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your
message:
>>>> you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been
experimenting
>>>> with (visual at
>>>>
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
>>>> )
>>>> >> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms
that
>>>> are holding just above the elbow.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with
his
>>>> left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you
use
>>>> in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right
>>>> hand.)
>>>> >> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I
intended:
>>>> >> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
>>>> >> Starts at 3:18.
>>>> >> Thoughts?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the
>>>> hold, that in this video referenced by Allan -
>>>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 or in the photo I
>>>> shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above
the
>>>> Lark's arm?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the
relative
>>>> height of the two dancing partners?
>>>> >> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin,
would the
>>>> Robin's arm still be above the Lark's?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Thanks all!
>>>> >> Kat K in Halifax
>>>> >>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers
>>>> >>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
>>>> >>> Hi Kat,
>>>> >>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your
photo.
>>>> When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a
>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather
than
>>>> further apart.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty
Contras
>>>> and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra
>>>> dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it!
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't
feel that it
>>>> really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be
enough
>>>> connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I
felt
>>>> that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that
it
>>>> was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was
just
>>>> awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The
biggest
>>>> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't
want your weight!
>>>> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their
own
>>>> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force
and
>>>> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz
on
>>>> the spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own
balance
>>>> and weight.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much
>>>> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught
badly,
>>>> and then lots of Aerials:
>>>> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I shouldn't
>>>> have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford to
let
>>>> people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at high
speeds
>>>> with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I just slow the
>>>> Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take their own
>>>> weight or fall over.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you
will
>>>> find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They
seem
>>>> to do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some
>>>> getting used to.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a
Ceilidh
>>>> Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you
>>>> could always try the Forearm Swing instead (
>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same
>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Happy dancing,
>>>> >>> John
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625
362 &
>>>> 07802 940 574
>>>> >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> >>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
>>>> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
>>>> >>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of
bodies and
>>>> lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a
>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance
with
>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with
EVERY
>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to
dance.
>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying
>>>> yes to one person.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in
our
>>>> group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra
>>>> dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most
>>>> important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct
which
>>>> we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he
would
>>>> not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s
>>>> always been women who have said this to me over the years), when they
come
>>>> to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is
>>>> asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever
comes
>>>> at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make
>>>> contra feel safer, especially for new dancers.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about
the
>>>> difference.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Becky
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner <
>>>> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a
ballroom
>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> >>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
>>>> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
>>>> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a
ballroom
>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have
in our
>>>> minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be
closer,
>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy
to
>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space -
>>>> though I wouldn't say the default)
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Is it something else?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what
a
>>>> solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might
entail?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> In dance,
>>>> >>> Julian Blechner
>>>> >>> He/him
>>>> >>> Western Mass
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Contra Callers mailing list --
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>>>> >> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>> _______________________________________________
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>
1:28 p.m.
Hi Chris,
Thanks! Note that it's a bit more complicated than where the center of
mass is: you need the moment of inertia. For example, imagine comparing
(a) a point mass at r=1ft and (b) the same mass divided into two bits at
r=2ft and r=0ft. The center of mass in case (b) still rotates with r=1ft
but the cases aren't equivalent: you need 2x the force in case (b). [1]
But you may well be right that the effective radius is under 1ft!
Jeff
[1] Doing the math:
F_a = m (ω2πr)^2 / r = m * r * (ω2π)^2
F_b = m/2 (ω2π(2r))^2 / (2r) + 0 = m * r * 2 * (ω2π)^2
F_a = 1/2 * F_b
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 1:18 PM Chris Lahey <clahey(a)clahey.net> wrote:
I addressed this in my other email, but this is a good
example. In this
case my back is providing 100lbf to your hands.
I also can't imagine being in this position and having centers of mass two
feet apart, but I would want to measure it before making this an argument,
hence going with your numbers.
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 13:15 Jeff Kaufman <jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>
> Thanks for reviewing the calculation! Imagine that I hold you around
> your back with both hands, and you put your hands up in the air and enjoy
> the ride. While I don't think we could get anywhere near 4.5x around in 12
> beats if you did that, do you agree that where my hands meet your back I'd
> need to provide both enough force for our combined weight?
>
> (I'm not claiming each person needs to provide ~200lb, but that this
> total force must be covered by the couple somehow)
>
> Jeff
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:56 PM Chris Lahey <clahey(a)clahey.net> wrote:
>
>> I think you're trying to calculate two 150lb dancers, but you've
>> calculated for a 300lb mass, but you shouldn't do that doubling. I'm
>> exerting enough force to provide your centripetal force and vice versa.
>> Those forces oppose one another, but they don't add up. That is a factor of
>> two error.
>>
>> I have to think more about one foot radius and 45 rpm and read upthread
>> more.
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 12:25 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I was curious about John's "The shoulder-blade connection is purely
to
>>> counteract centrifugal force. That is not normally a lot of force, so it
>>> shouldn’t make you tired." above. While ideally you could measure this,
I
>>> don't think swinging with a scale between your hand and partner's
back and
>>> your hand would be comfortable, and it would be hard to read. Let's try
a
>>> bit of physics.
>>>
>>> If you like to swing quickly you might go 4.5x around in twelve beats,
>>> which is 45rpm at a tempo of 120bpm. Let's guess the people each weigh
>>> 150lb and approximate them as point masses two feet apart. Doing some math:
>>>
>>> r = 1ft
>>> m = 300lb
>>> ω = 45rpm = 0.75 hz
>>>
>>> v = ω2πr
>>> = 0.75 hz * 2π * 1ft
>>> = 4.7 ft/s
>>>
>>> F = mv^2/r
>>> = 300lbm * (4.7 ft/s)^2 / 1ft
>>> = 300lbm * 23ft / s^2
>>> = 6662lbm * ft / s^2
>>>
>>> 1lbf = 32.17 lbm * ft / s^2
>>> 1lbm = 0.0311 lbf * s^2 / ft
>>>
>>> F = 6662 lbm * ft / s^2
>>> = 6662 * 0.0311 lbf
>>> = 207lbf
>>>
>>> This says you need ~216lb of force to hold the dancers together! If
>>> you're rotating more slowly, perhaps 2.5x in twelve beats, it's still
a
>>> significant 64lb.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> PS: If you want something you can play with, this is (rpm/3 * 3.14)**2
>>> * weight * 1/32.2
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:08 PM Jeff Kaufman
<jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Here's a 1989 recording the Portland OR dance did in a recording
>>>> studio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k . I see almost
>>>> all "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind
lady's back,
>>>> lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold (hereafter
'ballroom' though
>>>> as illustrated above that's a fraught term). At 0:58 and then again
at
>>>> 1:28, 1:58, 3:02 etc there's a couple with a symmetrical hold where
they
>>>> each have their right hand around the other's waist, with their left
hands
>>>> joined low in the center. I didn't watch the whole video, so
it's possible
>>>> there were other couples that did other holds at some point?
>>>>
>>>> Here's 1987 in Mendocino:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q
>>>> . I only see ballroom holds.
>>>>
>>>> Here's 1986 in Cambridge MA:
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q . Outdoor demo
>>>> performance. Almost all ballroom holds, but at 4:04 the couple all the
way
>>>> on the right has outer hands in a forearm hold (which they continue
doing
>>>> in later iterations of the dance).
>>>>
>>>> Here's 1986 in Francestown NH:
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE At 0:30 I see two
>>>> ballroom holds and two where the outer arms are holding a bit above the
>>>> elbows. At 1:06 I see two ballroom holds, one of the hold from 0:30,
and
>>>> one of the symmetrical holds I described in the Portland OR video,
though
>>>> note that this is many of the same couples. Jumping ahead to 8:38 I see
>>>> three ballroom holds and where the outer hands hold each other's
forearms.
>>>> Separately, I really like how enthusiastic the balances are: you can
feel
>>>> the room shake through to the camera!
>>>>
>>>> Here's one labeled 1986 Chico Contra:
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg Almost all ballroom
>>>> holds, except for one couple where the lady's left hand is on the
back of
>>>> the gent's right arm instead of behind his shoulder (doesn't
look
>>>> comfortable to me!)
>>>>
>>>> Here's 1976 in Bloomington:
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w . Looks like a
>>>> performance. At 0:10 I see three couples where the outer hands are
joined
>>>> as in ballroom, the gent's right hand is around the lady's waist,
and the
>>>> lady's left hand is again on the back of the gent's right arm.
Then
>>>> there's one couple doing the symmetrical swing with left hands joined
low
>>>> between their bodies. Same again at 0:44, 1:11, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Here's 1967 somewhere in New England:
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM . I see ballroom at
>>>> 0:35, 0:37, 3:15, 3:16, 5:08, 5:10. Then at 1:05 (and then again in the
>>>> background at 5:11, and then again at 5:23 and 5:33) I see a forearm
hold
>>>> with arms that are straighter than I'm used to. At 2:08 I see a hold
where
>>>> the gents hands are both around the lady's waist and the lady's
hands are
>>>> both over the tops of the gent's shoulders.
>>>>
>>>> Here's 1981 in Belmont MA, but it's an hour and I'm going to
bed:
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 4:33 PM Stein, Robert <steinr(a)msu.edu>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same
variety
>>>>> of swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel holds.
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>> > On Mar 26, 2024, at 16:13, Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Looking through old media to figure out what swing positions
were
>>>>> common sounds like fun! I think video might be more promising?
Here's a
>>>>> few annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and
each
>>>>> bullet describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame at
the
>>>>> timestamp. I only counted each couple once:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Cambridge MA, 1990:
>>>>> https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC
>>>>> > * 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms, gent's
right hand behind
>>>>> lady's back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm
>>>>> > * 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind
lady's
>>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
>>>>> > * 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's left hand on
gent's
>>>>> shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back
>>>>> > * 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out, lady's left
hand
>>>>> behind gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back
>>>>> > * 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on backs with lady
>>>>> above gent
>>>>> > * 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's inner
hand on
>>>>> lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder
>>>>> > * 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out, gent's inner
hand
>>>>> on lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm
>>>>> > * 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's shoulders,
gent's left hand
>>>>> behind lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's
back
>>>>> > * 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind
lady's
>>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
>>>>> > * 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind
lady's
>>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand
behind lady's
>>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold,
which I think of as
>>>>> the standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot
of
>>>>> variation.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975 clip, but there were
too
>>>>> many cuts. The 1964 video would be another one to try?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Jeff
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via Contra
Callers <
>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>> > Responding to various points.
>>>>> > And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always
regional
>>>>> differences (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is
really
>>>>> about?)
>>>>> > I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a
friendly
>>>>> tone and desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's
intended.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking
>>>>> approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra -
Balance and
>>>>> Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry
Jennings.
>>>>> > The short version: despite being contemporaries and the books
>>>>> published a year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly
different
>>>>> swing holds, where:
>>>>> > - a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the small of
the
>>>>> back (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on
the
>>>>> cover which he points out in the description is what to follow)
>>>>> > - a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom palm-up
>>>>> supporting the lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the
lady's right upper
>>>>> arm (Jennings, with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a
lady's
>>>>> hands
>>>>> > - a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper arm
>>>>> (Jennings) or "behind the upper arm" (Sanella)
>>>>> >
>>>>> > So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing
>>>>> position, and holds described by both did include women holding men
in ways
>>>>> that were supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that
their
>>>>> hand is "resting on top" as with other couples'
dances.
>>>>> > Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back
around to
>>>>> that after I touch on some specific points:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against
the
>>>>> Leftie’s supporting right hand."
>>>>> > Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back" may be
describing
>>>>> "the feeling of centripetal force", but also I have
definitely experienced
>>>>> people who lean back.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing
together
>>>>> because you are limited to the length of the shorter arm."
>>>>> > I don't think this is accurate.
>>>>> > This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade
isn't
>>>>> small, and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size
>>>>> differences. There's always exceptions, sure.
>>>>> > Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing
shoulderblades.
>>>>> Then again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's
less
>>>>> support that's needed to be given.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back
means you’re
>>>>> going to be on top of me."
>>>>> > I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in the
>>>>> "middle" of the back. There's a gap between
shoulderblades, so a hand in
>>>>> the middle is partially off the shoulderblade.
>>>>> > I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the hand
>>>>> often can naturally curve around the shoulderblade.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then
the
>>>>> arms are coming in at the same point and going to the same point,
resulting
>>>>> in collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward."
>>>>> > I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think everyone
on
>>>>> this list here has been dancing for years, and "elbow
collisions" isn't a
>>>>> thing I've really experienced or heard discussed.
>>>>> > So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but people
just
>>>>> ... do it?
>>>>> > As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing from a
bit
>>>>> of an under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm
comes
>>>>> in more open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their
right
>>>>> arm before I try and wrap my right arm around.
>>>>> > It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a good
connection
>>>>> on a star promenade.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Further to this point, if I were using the traditional
"woman left
>>>>> arm rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm
has engaged,
>>>>> anyway.
>>>>> > Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra bit
of
>>>>> work in the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's
movement, and
>>>>> timing their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone
unnoticed.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work
as
>>>>> wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women.
>>>>> > Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
>>>>> > Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
>>>>> > Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
>>>>> > Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
>>>>> > Some men dance with men, some women with women.
>>>>> > Etc.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a
swing work
>>>>> for both people" as a universal and generic skill.
>>>>> > Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more
automatic than it
>>>>> may seem!
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic
aspects
>>>>> of contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need
to
>>>>> adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy
medium
>>>>> that works for both people.
>>>>> > If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my
shoulderblade,
>>>>> that's fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing
speed.
>>>>> > I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer can
>>>>> adjust their style to meet another dancer's differences in size,
height,
>>>>> ability, tiredness, injury, age, etc.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > In dance,
>>>>> > Julian Blechner
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein
<nschlein(a)gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > Hi Julian,
>>>>> > Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the
other
>>>>> persons back, I agree with Joe.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to
the
>>>>> length of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and
long
>>>>> arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to
be on
>>>>> top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m
not OK
>>>>> with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space.
>>>>> (Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one
wants
>>>>> their hand on my back.)
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the
arms
>>>>> are coming in at the same point and going to the same point,
resulting in
>>>>> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means
a
>>>>> changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a
shortening
>>>>> of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby
>>>>> pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also
puts
>>>>> the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in
a
>>>>> non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable
and
>>>>> potentially harmful.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Neal Schlein
>>>>> > Librarian, MSLIS
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra
Callers <
>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>> > Hi Joe,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so,
it's how
>>>>> I teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've
heard a
>>>>> complaint about it.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent
backward by eager
>>>>> robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right
place."
>>>>> >
>>>>> > That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While
yes, putting
>>>>> Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the
clamping,
>>>>> it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I
just
>>>>> workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a
variety
>>>>> of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.)
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands
flat on
>>>>> the backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open
frame when
>>>>> swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on
>>>>> shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other
is
>>>>> fairly petite.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if
I
>>>>> have an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing
insufficient
>>>>> support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the
swing
>>>>> hold works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is,
yeah?
>>>>> But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further,
because what
>>>>> you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I
understand
>>>>> correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.)
>>>>> >
>>>>> > In dance,
>>>>> > Julian Blechner
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <
>>>>> contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> > Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of
the
>>>>> lark's, but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but
for a number of
>>>>> years now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same
>>>>> location on the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on
the robin's
>>>>> back. I know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in
their
>>>>> newbie workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do
this to
>>>>> provide equal support in the swing.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the
dancers
>>>>> are not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be
possible to do
>>>>> this without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my
elbow bent
>>>>> backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in
the
>>>>> right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it
pretty much
>>>>> eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight
back" by
>>>>> pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially
>>>>> refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting
my elbow,
>>>>> so it kills any enjoyment in that swing.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give
major
>>>>> support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one
Jeff
>>>>> described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm
is on top
>>>>> are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than
their
>>>>> lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a
ballroom hold
>>>>> (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on
the shoulder.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --jh--
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner <
>>>>> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> > JJ,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the
>>>>> asymmetry of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is
dancing.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Joe,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold
having
>>>>> elbows occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in
person or
>>>>> picture). That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the
overall
>>>>> topic, that everyone has different physical needs and finding happy
mediums
>>>>> is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom
hold
>>>>> handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even
seasoned
>>>>> callers - can anticipate every need or difference.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > In dance,
>>>>> > Julian Blechner
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcgj95(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>> > Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to
"flip
>>>>> the switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm
"supposed to" end
>>>>> on (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun
lol). If my
>>>>> left arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left;
if my right arm is
>>>>> the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't
have to consciously tell
>>>>> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin,"
my muscle memory just takes over
>>>>> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on
switching
>>>>> roles without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick
with the
>>>>> traditional ballroom figure.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers
<
>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>> > "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the
lady's
>>>>> role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became
the norm."
>>>>> >
>>>>> > When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember
>>>>> initially doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the
gents I
>>>>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007
when I
>>>>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do
the
>>>>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I
were
>>>>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Jeff
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra
Callers <
>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>> > I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in
a
>>>>> way that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially
true
>>>>> if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close
to
>>>>> theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without
frontal
>>>>> contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all
that
>>>>> aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great
hold, more
>>>>> stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than
one.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the
lady's role
>>>>> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a
moment),
>>>>> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral
swing", which is
>>>>> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are
around
>>>>> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the
other's right arm,
>>>>> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands
around
>>>>> each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it
almost never
>>>>> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a
lady. I'm
>>>>> not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with
a
>>>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it
first
>>>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
>>>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors
when we
>>>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I
were an
>>>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
>>>>> change...
>>>>> >
>>>>> > In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either
role when
>>>>> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and
uncomfortable in the
>>>>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls,
and
>>>>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I
haven't
>>>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even
though
>>>>> it was pretty great in other ways.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom
>>>>> position where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's
back in the
>>>>> same place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some
people actually
>>>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's
terrible,
>>>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the
same
>>>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is
outside
>>>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right
elbow,
>>>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing
pain
>>>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand
from my
>>>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the
>>>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop
>>>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it
can hurt
>>>>> the lark.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no
>>>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer
than the
>>>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right,
extending the entire
>>>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's
shoulder to
>>>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if
they
>>>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often
also light
>>>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does
make for more
>>>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder,
though. Only
>>>>> pull forward.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --jh--
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra
Callers
>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>> > At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought
about
>>>>> this email thread and observations.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Short and simple:
>>>>> > A "barrel hold" swing:
>>>>> > - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom
hold
>>>>> > - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a
lark,
>>>>> with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type
position. As we
>>>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it
guided
>>>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced
dancer.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > In dance,
>>>>> > -Julian Blechner
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra
Callers <
>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>> > I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go
above
>>>>> the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively
think
>>>>> that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers
to
>>>>> make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the
robin’s
>>>>> arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s
hand is
>>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in
things
>>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the
hand/arm
>>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to
me if
>>>>> I were just learning this swing.
>>>>> > Becky
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra
>>>>> Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for
>>>>> spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance!
Though what I
>>>>> think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working
on is that
>>>>> it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your
message:
>>>>> you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been
experimenting
>>>>> with (visual at
>>>>>
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
>>>>> )
>>>>> >> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the
arms that
>>>>> are holding just above the elbow.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing
with
>>>>> his left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold
you
>>>>> use in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and
her
>>>>> right hand.)
>>>>> >> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I
intended:
>>>>> >> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
>>>>> >> Starts at 3:18.
>>>>> >> Thoughts?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of
the
>>>>> hold, that in this video referenced by Allan -
>>>>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 or in the photo
I
>>>>> shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go
above the
>>>>> Lark's arm?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the
relative
>>>>> height of the two dancing partners?
>>>>> >> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall
Robin, would the
>>>>> Robin's arm still be above the Lark's?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Thanks all!
>>>>> >> Kat K in Halifax
>>>>> >>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers
>>>>> >>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
>>>>> >>> Hi Kat,
>>>>> >>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your
photo.
>>>>> When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I
call a
>>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather
than
>>>>> further apart.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of
Zesty
>>>>> Contras and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers
at a
>>>>> contra dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using
it!
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and
didn't feel that
>>>>> it really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem
to be
>>>>> enough connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my
arm.
>>>>> I felt that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen
felt
>>>>> that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping
- it was
>>>>> just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The
biggest
>>>>> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I
don't want your weight!
>>>>> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control
their own
>>>>> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force
and
>>>>> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to
Buzz on
>>>>> the spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own
balance
>>>>> and weight.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too
much
>>>>> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught
badly,
>>>>> and then lots of Aerials:
>>>>> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I
shouldn't
>>>>> have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford
to let
>>>>> people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at high
speeds
>>>>> with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I just slow
the
>>>>> Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take their
own
>>>>> weight or fall over.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight
you will
>>>>> find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved.
They seem
>>>>> to do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes
some
>>>>> getting used to.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in
a
>>>>> Ceilidh Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh
>>>>> ) - you could always try the Forearm Swing instead (
>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same
>>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Happy dancing,
>>>>> >>> John
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233
625 362
>>>>> & 07802 940 574
>>>>> >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> >>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
>>>>> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
>>>>> >>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of
bodies
>>>>> and lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference
between a
>>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance
with
>>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with
EVERY
>>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to
dance.
>>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than
saying
>>>>> yes to one person.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer
in our
>>>>> group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their
contra
>>>>> dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most
>>>>> important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct
which
>>>>> we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he
would
>>>>> not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but
it’s
>>>>> always been women who have said this to me over the years), when they
come
>>>>> to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it
is
>>>>> asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever
comes
>>>>> at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might
make
>>>>> contra feel safer, especially for new dancers.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel
about the
>>>>> difference.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Becky
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner <
>>>>> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a
ballroom
>>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> >>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
>>>>> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
>>>>> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a
ballroom
>>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we
have in our
>>>>> minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our
culture?
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be
closer,
>>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own
intimacy to
>>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space
-
>>>>> though I wouldn't say the default)
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Is it something else?
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to
what a
>>>>> solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might
entail?
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> In dance,
>>>>> >>> Julian Blechner
>>>>> >>> He/him
>>>>> >>> Western Mass
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> >> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list --
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list --
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>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list --
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>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
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5:58 p.m.
I had poked around with the math as well, but struggled with all of the
estimates. I'm happy to see Jeff taking a stab at this and discussing.
I think likely some of that force is taken by core muscles, and transferred
to the feet against floor, and such.
This would be a really cool practical kinesthetics research paper!
Julian
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 1:28 PM Jeff Kaufman <jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Chris,
Thanks! Note that it's a bit more complicated than where the center of
mass is: you need the moment of inertia. For example, imagine comparing
(a) a point mass at r=1ft and (b) the same mass divided into two bits at
r=2ft and r=0ft. The center of mass in case (b) still rotates with r=1ft
but the cases aren't equivalent: you need 2x the force in case (b). [1]
But you may well be right that the effective radius is under 1ft!
Jeff
[1] Doing the math:
F_a = m (ω2πr)^2 / r = m * r * (ω2π)^2
F_b = m/2 (ω2π(2r))^2 / (2r) + 0 = m * r * 2 * (ω2π)^2
F_a = 1/2 * F_b
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 1:18 PM Chris Lahey <clahey(a)clahey.net> wrote:
> I addressed this in my other email, but this is a good example. In this
> case my back is providing 100lbf to your hands.
>
> I also can't imagine being in this position and having centers of mass
> two feet apart, but I would want to measure it before making this an
> argument, hence going with your numbers.
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 13:15 Jeff Kaufman <jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> Thanks for reviewing the calculation! Imagine that I hold you around
>> your back with both hands, and you put your hands up in the air and enjoy
>> the ride. While I don't think we could get anywhere near 4.5x around in 12
>> beats if you did that, do you agree that where my hands meet your back I'd
>> need to provide both enough force for our combined weight?
>>
>> (I'm not claiming each person needs to provide ~200lb, but that this
>> total force must be covered by the couple somehow)
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:56 PM Chris Lahey <clahey(a)clahey.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I think you're trying to calculate two 150lb dancers, but you've
>>> calculated for a 300lb mass, but you shouldn't do that doubling. I'm
>>> exerting enough force to provide your centripetal force and vice versa.
>>> Those forces oppose one another, but they don't add up. That is a factor
of
>>> two error.
>>>
>>> I have to think more about one foot radius and 45 rpm and read upthread
>>> more.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 12:25 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was curious about John's "The shoulder-blade connection is
purely to
>>>> counteract centrifugal force. That is not normally a lot of force, so
it
>>>> shouldn’t make you tired." above. While ideally you could measure
this, I
>>>> don't think swinging with a scale between your hand and partner's
back and
>>>> your hand would be comfortable, and it would be hard to read. Let's
try a
>>>> bit of physics.
>>>>
>>>> If you like to swing quickly you might go 4.5x around in twelve beats,
>>>> which is 45rpm at a tempo of 120bpm. Let's guess the people each
weigh
>>>> 150lb and approximate them as point masses two feet apart. Doing some
math:
>>>>
>>>> r = 1ft
>>>> m = 300lb
>>>> ω = 45rpm = 0.75 hz
>>>>
>>>> v = ω2πr
>>>> = 0.75 hz * 2π * 1ft
>>>> = 4.7 ft/s
>>>>
>>>> F = mv^2/r
>>>> = 300lbm * (4.7 ft/s)^2 / 1ft
>>>> = 300lbm * 23ft / s^2
>>>> = 6662lbm * ft / s^2
>>>>
>>>> 1lbf = 32.17 lbm * ft / s^2
>>>> 1lbm = 0.0311 lbf * s^2 / ft
>>>>
>>>> F = 6662 lbm * ft / s^2
>>>> = 6662 * 0.0311 lbf
>>>> = 207lbf
>>>>
>>>> This says you need ~216lb of force to hold the dancers together! If
>>>> you're rotating more slowly, perhaps 2.5x in twelve beats, it's
still a
>>>> significant 64lb.
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>> PS: If you want something you can play with, this is (rpm/3 * 3.14)**2
>>>> * weight * 1/32.2
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:08 PM Jeff Kaufman <
>>>> jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Here's a 1989 recording the Portland OR dance did in a recording
>>>>> studio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k . I see almost
>>>>> all "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind
lady's back,
>>>>> lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold (hereafter
'ballroom' though
>>>>> as illustrated above that's a fraught term). At 0:58 and then
again at
>>>>> 1:28, 1:58, 3:02 etc there's a couple with a symmetrical hold
where they
>>>>> each have their right hand around the other's waist, with their
left hands
>>>>> joined low in the center. I didn't watch the whole video, so
it's possible
>>>>> there were other couples that did other holds at some point?
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's 1987 in Mendocino:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q
>>>>> . I only see ballroom holds.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's 1986 in Cambridge MA:
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q . Outdoor demo
>>>>> performance. Almost all ballroom holds, but at 4:04 the couple all
the way
>>>>> on the right has outer hands in a forearm hold (which they continue
doing
>>>>> in later iterations of the dance).
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's 1986 in Francestown NH:
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE At 0:30 I see two
>>>>> ballroom holds and two where the outer arms are holding a bit above
the
>>>>> elbows. At 1:06 I see two ballroom holds, one of the hold from 0:30,
and
>>>>> one of the symmetrical holds I described in the Portland OR video,
though
>>>>> note that this is many of the same couples. Jumping ahead to 8:38 I
see
>>>>> three ballroom holds and where the outer hands hold each other's
forearms.
>>>>> Separately, I really like how enthusiastic the balances are: you can
feel
>>>>> the room shake through to the camera!
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's one labeled 1986 Chico Contra:
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg Almost all ballroom
>>>>> holds, except for one couple where the lady's left hand is on the
back of
>>>>> the gent's right arm instead of behind his shoulder (doesn't
look
>>>>> comfortable to me!)
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's 1976 in Bloomington:
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w . Looks like a
>>>>> performance. At 0:10 I see three couples where the outer hands are
joined
>>>>> as in ballroom, the gent's right hand is around the lady's
waist, and the
>>>>> lady's left hand is again on the back of the gent's right
arm. Then
>>>>> there's one couple doing the symmetrical swing with left hands
joined low
>>>>> between their bodies. Same again at 0:44, 1:11, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's 1967 somewhere in New England:
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM . I see ballroom at
>>>>> 0:35, 0:37, 3:15, 3:16, 5:08, 5:10. Then at 1:05 (and then again in
the
>>>>> background at 5:11, and then again at 5:23 and 5:33) I see a forearm
hold
>>>>> with arms that are straighter than I'm used to. At 2:08 I see a
hold where
>>>>> the gents hands are both around the lady's waist and the
lady's hands are
>>>>> both over the tops of the gent's shoulders.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's 1981 in Belmont MA, but it's an hour and I'm going
to bed:
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 4:33 PM Stein, Robert <steinr(a)msu.edu>
wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same
>>>>>> variety of swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel
holds.
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > On Mar 26, 2024, at 16:13, Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers
<
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Looking through old media to figure out what swing positions
were
>>>>>> common sounds like fun! I think video might be more promising?
Here's a
>>>>>> few annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and
each
>>>>>> bullet describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame
at the
>>>>>> timestamp. I only counted each couple once:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Cambridge MA, 1990:
>>>>>> https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC
>>>>>> > * 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms, gent's
right hand behind
>>>>>> lady's back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm
>>>>>> > * 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand
behind lady's
>>>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
>>>>>> > * 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's left hand on
gent's
>>>>>> shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back
>>>>>> > * 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out, lady's
left hand
>>>>>> behind gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's
back
>>>>>> > * 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on backs with
lady
>>>>>> above gent
>>>>>> > * 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's inner
hand on
>>>>>> lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's
shoulder
>>>>>> > * 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out, gent's
inner hand
>>>>>> on lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm
>>>>>> > * 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's shoulders,
gent's left
>>>>>> hand behind lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind
lady's back
>>>>>> > * 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand
behind lady's
>>>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
>>>>>> > * 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand
behind lady's
>>>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand
behind lady's
>>>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold,
which I think of as
>>>>>> the standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a
lot of
>>>>>> variation.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975 clip, but there
were
>>>>>> too many cuts. The 1964 video would be another one to try?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Jeff
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via Contra
Callers
>>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>> > Responding to various points.
>>>>>> > And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always
regional
>>>>>> differences (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is
really
>>>>>> about?)
>>>>>> > I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a
friendly
>>>>>> tone and desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's
intended.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books
marking
>>>>>> approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra -
Balance and
>>>>>> Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry
Jennings.
>>>>>> > The short version: despite being contemporaries and the
books
>>>>>> published a year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly
different
>>>>>> swing holds, where:
>>>>>> > - a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the
small of the
>>>>>> back (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration
on the
>>>>>> cover which he points out in the description is what to follow)
>>>>>> > - a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom
palm-up
>>>>>> supporting the lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the
lady's right upper
>>>>>> arm (Jennings, with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with
a lady's
>>>>>> hands
>>>>>> > - a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper
arm
>>>>>> (Jennings) or "behind the upper arm" (Sanella)
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing
>>>>>> position, and holds described by both did include women holding
men in ways
>>>>>> that were supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing
that their
>>>>>> hand is "resting on top" as with other couples'
dances.
>>>>>> > Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back
around to
>>>>>> that after I touch on some specific points:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back
against the
>>>>>> Leftie’s supporting right hand."
>>>>>> > Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back"
may be describing
>>>>>> "the feeling of centripetal force", but also I have
definitely experienced
>>>>>> people who lean back.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing
together
>>>>>> because you are limited to the length of the shorter arm."
>>>>>> > I don't think this is accurate.
>>>>>> > This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade
isn't
>>>>>> small, and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size
>>>>>> differences. There's always exceptions, sure.
>>>>>> > Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing
>>>>>> shoulderblades. Then again, they have a lot less mass than an
adult, so
>>>>>> there's less support that's needed to be given.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back
means
>>>>>> you’re going to be on top of me."
>>>>>> > I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in
the
>>>>>> "middle" of the back. There's a gap between
shoulderblades, so a hand in
>>>>>> the middle is partially off the shoulderblade.
>>>>>> > I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the
hand
>>>>>> often can naturally curve around the shoulderblade.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length
then the
>>>>>> arms are coming in at the same point and going to the same point,
resulting
>>>>>> in collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND
forward."
>>>>>> > I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think
everyone on
>>>>>> this list here has been dancing for years, and "elbow
collisions" isn't a
>>>>>> thing I've really experienced or heard discussed.
>>>>>> > So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but
people
>>>>>> just ... do it?
>>>>>> > As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing
from a
>>>>>> bit of an under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my
left arm
>>>>>> comes in more open and I wait half a moment to let the lark
engage their
>>>>>> right arm before I try and wrap my right arm around.
>>>>>> > It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a
good
>>>>>> connection on a star promenade.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Further to this point, if I were using the traditional
"woman left
>>>>>> arm rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's
arm has engaged,
>>>>>> anyway.
>>>>>> > Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra
bit of
>>>>>> work in the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's
movement, and
>>>>>> timing their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone
unnoticed.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not
work
>>>>>> as wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women.
>>>>>> > Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
>>>>>> > Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
>>>>>> > Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
>>>>>> > Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
>>>>>> > Some men dance with men, some women with women.
>>>>>> > Etc.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make
a swing
>>>>>> work for both people" as a universal and generic skill.
>>>>>> > Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more
automatic than
>>>>>> it may seem!
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic
aspects
>>>>>> of contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers
need to
>>>>>> adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy
medium
>>>>>> that works for both people.
>>>>>> > If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my
>>>>>> shoulderblade, that's fine and I'll adjust by limiting my
upper-end swing
>>>>>> speed.
>>>>>> > I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer
can
>>>>>> adjust their style to meet another dancer's differences in
size, height,
>>>>>> ability, tiredness, injury, age, etc.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > In dance,
>>>>>> > Julian Blechner
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein
<nschlein(a)gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> > Hi Julian,
>>>>>> > Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the
other
>>>>>> persons back, I agree with Joe.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > First, it forces the swing together because you are limited
to the
>>>>>> length of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders
and long
>>>>>> arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re
going to be on
>>>>>> top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and
I’m not OK
>>>>>> with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of
space.
>>>>>> (Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no
one wants
>>>>>> their hand on my back.)
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the
arms
>>>>>> are coming in at the same point and going to the same point,
resulting in
>>>>>> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This
means a
>>>>>> changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a
shortening
>>>>>> of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top),
thereby
>>>>>> pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which
also puts
>>>>>> the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically
longer) in a
>>>>>> non-natural position, which is likely to be physically
uncomfortable and
>>>>>> potentially harmful.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Neal Schlein
>>>>>> > Librarian, MSLIS
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra
Callers
>>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>> > Hi Joe,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so,
it's
>>>>>> how I teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first
I've heard
>>>>>> a complaint about it.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent
backward by eager
>>>>>> robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right
place."
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping".
While yes, putting
>>>>>> Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates
the clamping,
>>>>>> it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their
elbow. (I just
>>>>>> workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test
a variety
>>>>>> of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as
well.)
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands
flat on
>>>>>> the backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an
open frame when
>>>>>> swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting
on
>>>>>> shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the
other is
>>>>>> fairly petite.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and
sore if I
>>>>>> have an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing
insufficient
>>>>>> support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where
the
>>>>>> swing hold works better for you the way you describe, that is
what it is,
>>>>>> yeah? But I might recommend considering workshopping swings
further,
>>>>>> because what you're requesting is counter to prevailing
teaching. If I
>>>>>> understand correctly (and it's always possible I'm
missing something.)
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > In dance,
>>>>>> > Julian Blechner
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <
>>>>>> contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> > Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top
of the
>>>>>> lark's, but an alternative that I've seen occasionally,
but for a number of
>>>>>> years now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the
same
>>>>>> location on the lark's back as the lark has their right hand
on the robin's
>>>>>> back. I know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold
in their
>>>>>> newbie workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to
do this to
>>>>>> provide equal support in the swing.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the
dancers
>>>>>> are not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be
possible to do
>>>>>> this without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had
my elbow bent
>>>>>> backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow
in the
>>>>>> right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it
pretty much
>>>>>> eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I
"fight back" by
>>>>>> pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure,
essentially
>>>>>> refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on
protecting my elbow,
>>>>>> so it kills any enjoyment in that swing.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to
give
>>>>>> major support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel,
the one
>>>>>> Jeff described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the
lark's arm is on
>>>>>> top are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer
than their
>>>>>> lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a
ballroom hold
>>>>>> (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push
down on the shoulder.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > --jh--
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner <
>>>>>> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> > JJ,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the
>>>>>> asymmetry of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one
is dancing.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Joe,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold
having
>>>>>> elbows occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in
person or
>>>>>> picture). That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the
overall
>>>>>> topic, that everyone has different physical needs and finding
happy mediums
>>>>>> is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with
ballroom hold
>>>>>> handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not
even seasoned
>>>>>> callers - can anticipate every need or difference.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > In dance,
>>>>>> > Julian Blechner
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcgj95(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>> > Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to
"flip
>>>>>> the switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm
"supposed to" end
>>>>>> on (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun
lol). If my
>>>>>> left arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the
left; if my right arm is
>>>>>> the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I
don't have to consciously tell
>>>>>> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the
Robin," my muscle memory just takes over
>>>>>> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on
switching
>>>>>> roles without warning through an individual dance, I tend to
stick with the
>>>>>> traditional ballroom figure.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers
<
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>> > "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in
the lady's
>>>>>> role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that
became the norm."
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember
>>>>>> initially doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with
the gents I
>>>>>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around
2006-2007 when I
>>>>>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to
do the
>>>>>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and
I were
>>>>>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Jeff
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra
Callers
>>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>> > I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted
in a
>>>>>> way that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is
especially true
>>>>>> if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty
close to
>>>>>> theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do
without frontal
>>>>>> contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But,
all that
>>>>>> aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great
hold, more
>>>>>> stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather
than one.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the
lady's
>>>>>> role (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll
see in a
>>>>>> moment), we'd almost universally be offered the
"gender-neutral swing",
>>>>>> which is symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both
right arms are
>>>>>> around the other's back and both left arms go over/around the
other's right
>>>>>> arm, bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp
left hands
>>>>>> around each other's forearms between your bodies. At the
time, it almost
>>>>>> never happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung
like a lady.
>>>>>> I'm not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally
do it with a
>>>>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced
it first
>>>>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
>>>>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors
when we
>>>>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I
were an
>>>>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance
behavior
>>>>>> change...
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either
role when
>>>>>> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and
uncomfortable in the
>>>>>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns,
growls, and
>>>>>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I
haven't
>>>>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022,
even though
>>>>>> it was pretty great in other ways.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom
>>>>>> position where the robbin tries to put their hand on the
lark's back in the
>>>>>> same place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some
people actually
>>>>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing.
It's terrible,
>>>>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy
the same
>>>>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm
is outside
>>>>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right
elbow,
>>>>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes
inducing pain
>>>>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their
hand from my
>>>>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of
the
>>>>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to
stop
>>>>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended
and it can hurt
>>>>>> the lark.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires
no
>>>>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer
than the
>>>>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right,
extending the entire
>>>>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's
shoulder to
>>>>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at
least, if they
>>>>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're
often also light
>>>>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does
make for more
>>>>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the
shoulder, though. Only
>>>>>> pull forward.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > --jh--
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra
>>>>>> Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>> > At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought
about
>>>>>> this email thread and observations.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Short and simple:
>>>>>> > A "barrel hold" swing:
>>>>>> > - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom
hold
>>>>>> > - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a
lark,
>>>>>> with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug"
type position. As we
>>>>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and
it guided
>>>>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an
experienced dancer.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > In dance,
>>>>>> > -Julian Blechner
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra
Callers
>>>>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>> > I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to
go above
>>>>>> the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would
intuitively think
>>>>>> that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for
dancers to
>>>>>> make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because
the robin’s
>>>>>> arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s
hand is
>>>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s
in things
>>>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the
hand/arm
>>>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive
to me if
>>>>>> I were just learning this swing.
>>>>>> > Becky
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via
Contra
>>>>>> Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing
at
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 -
for
>>>>>> spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance!
Though what I
>>>>>> think Becky found interesting about the variation we're
working on is that
>>>>>> it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> The one thing that I was confused about when I read
your
>>>>>> message: you say when you tried the swing variation our group
has been
>>>>>> experimenting with (visual at
>>>>>>
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
>>>>>> )
>>>>>> >> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the
arms
>>>>>> that are holding just above the elbow.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are
doing with
>>>>>> his left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the
hold you
>>>>>> use in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand
and her
>>>>>> right hand.)
>>>>>> >> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I
intended:
>>>>>> >>
https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
>>>>>> >> Starts at 3:18.
>>>>>> >> Thoughts?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature
of the
>>>>>> hold, that in this video referenced by Allan -
>>>>>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 or in the
photo I
>>>>>> shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always*
go above the
>>>>>> Lark's arm?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the
relative
>>>>>> height of the two dancing partners?
>>>>>> >> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall
Robin, would the
>>>>>> Robin's arm still be above the Lark's?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Thanks all!
>>>>>> >> Kat K in Halifax
>>>>>> >>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers
>>>>>> >>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
>>>>>> >>> Hi Kat,
>>>>>> >>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in
your photo.
>>>>>> When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I
call a
>>>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together
rather than
>>>>>> further apart.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of
Zesty
>>>>>> Contras and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600
dancers at a
>>>>>> contra dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was
using it!
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and
didn't feel that
>>>>>> it really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't
seem to be
>>>>>> enough connection to have a really good swing unless Karen
gripped my arm.
>>>>>> I felt that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top
Karen felt
>>>>>> that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't
gripping - it was
>>>>>> just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc.
The biggest
>>>>>> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I
don't want your weight!
>>>>>> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control
their own
>>>>>> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal
force and
>>>>>> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers
to Buzz on
>>>>>> the spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their
own balance
>>>>>> and weight.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders
(too much
>>>>>> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is
taught badly,
>>>>>> and then lots of Aerials:
>>>>>> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I
>>>>>> shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I
can't afford
>>>>>> to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can
Swing at high
>>>>>> speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I
just slow
>>>>>> the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take
their own
>>>>>> weight or fall over.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own
weight you
>>>>>> will find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet
interleaved. They seem
>>>>>> to do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and
takes some
>>>>>> getting used to.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too
close in a
>>>>>> Ceilidh Swing
(http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh
>>>>>> ) - you could always try the Forearm Swing instead (
>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same
>>>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Happy dancing,
>>>>>> >>> John
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com
01233 625 362
>>>>>> & 07802 940 574
>>>>>> >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> >>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
>>>>>> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
>>>>>> >>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity
of bodies
>>>>>> and lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference
between a
>>>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing
dance with
>>>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing
with EVERY
>>>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked
to dance.
>>>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than
saying
>>>>>> yes to one person.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous
dancer in our
>>>>>> group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their
contra
>>>>>> dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The
most
>>>>>> important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of
conduct which
>>>>>> we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear
he would
>>>>>> not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others,
but it’s
>>>>>> always been women who have said this to me over the years), when
they come
>>>>>> to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the
line, it is
>>>>>> asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with
whoever comes
>>>>>> at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might
make
>>>>>> contra feel safer, especially for new dancers.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel
about the
>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Becky
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner <
>>>>>> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on
why a
>>>>>> ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> >>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
>>>>>> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
>>>>>> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on
why a
>>>>>> ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment
we have in
>>>>>> our minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in
our culture?
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to
be closer,
>>>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own
intimacy to
>>>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more
space -
>>>>>> though I wouldn't say the default)
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Is it something else?
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight
to what a
>>>>>> solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset
might entail?
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> In dance,
>>>>>> >>> Julian Blechner
>>>>>> >>> He/him
>>>>>> >>> Western Mass
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> >> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>
>>>
10:40 p.m.
Thank you, Jeff, for venturing this calculation. I've been meaning to
try the numbers for some time. I got as far as doing the equations in
my head last night, but couldn't put in numbers before falling asleep.
Chris is right about the factor of two in the equation for the masses.
Think about the center of mass of the whole system. That is the
motionless point you are turning around. In a previous thread someone
compared the effect to holding onto a fixed pole and swinging around
that. The same centripetal force would be needed to keep you on track
as though you had an equal mass partner with equally long arms.
Replacing the pole with a partner does not change that force.
Chris also makes the good point about that centripetal force being
provided by two arms or even four arms in a barrel hold.
Thinking about the numbers, let's look at the distance traveled. Suppose
the radius is 1 foot. The circumference is a little over 6 feet
(2*pi). 4.5 revolutions would be a little over 28 feet. Doing that in
12 beats (steps), not allowing any time for stepping in after the
balance or opening up after the swing, means 2.4 feet per step, which
seems long to me. I'm guessing that a two-foot separation of the
dancers' centers of gravity is incompatible with 4.5 revolutions in 12
beats. Also, that's a 135 degree twist of the planted foot on each step
which may be aggressive for most dancers in a swing.
Looking at the contribution to the centripetal force from the feet, it's
important to note that the friction force there is applied much farther
from the dancer's center of mass vertically than in the case of any arm
connection. If you weren't holding on to your partner, you'd need to
lean in a little to keep your balance, while an earlier theme of this
thread was increasing the separation between dancers. I'm getting away
from quantitative here, but note that if you are turning 135 degrees
with each step, you want low friction which may limit your ability to
apply a centripetal force with your feet.
It's complicated.
David
On 3/27/2024 4:58 PM, Julian Blechner via Contra Callers wrote:
I had poked around with the math as well, but
struggled with all of
the estimates. I'm happy to see Jeff taking a stab at this and
discussing.
I think likely some of that force is taken by core muscles, and
transferred to the feet against floor, and such.
This would be a really cool practical kinesthetics research paper!
Julian
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 1:28 PM Jeff Kaufman <jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Hi Chris,
Thanks! Note that it's a bit more complicated than where the
center of mass is: you need the moment of inertia. For example,
imagine comparing (a) a point mass at r=1ft and (b) the same mass
divided into two bits at r=2ft and r=0ft. The center of mass in
case (b) still rotates with r=1ft but the cases aren't equivalent:
you need 2x the force in case (b). [1]
But you may well be right that the effective radius is under 1ft!
Jeff
[1] Doing the math:
F_a = m (ω2πr)^2 / r = m * r * (ω2π)^2
F_b = m/2 (ω2π(2r))^2 / (2r) + 0 = m * r * 2 * (ω2π)^2
F_a = 1/2 * F_b
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 1:18 PM Chris Lahey <clahey(a)clahey.net> wrote:
I addressed this in my other email, but this is a good
example. In this case my back is providing 100lbf to your hands.
I also can't imagine being in this position and having centers
of mass two feet apart, but I would want to measure it before
making this an argument, hence going with your numbers.
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 13:15 Jeff Kaufman
<jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Chris,
Thanks for reviewing the calculation! Imagine that I hold
you around your back with both hands, and you put your
hands up in the air and enjoy the ride. While I don't
think we could get anywhere near 4.5x around in 12 beats
if you did that, do you agree that where my hands meet
your back I'd need to provide both enough force for our
combined weight?
(I'm not claiming each person needs to provide ~200lb, but
that this total force must be covered by the couple somehow)
Jeff
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:56 PM Chris Lahey
<clahey(a)clahey.net> wrote:
I think you're trying to calculate two 150lb dancers,
but you've calculated for a 300lb mass, but you
shouldn't do that doubling. I'm exerting enough force
to provide your centripetal force and vice versa.
Those forces oppose one another, but they don't add
up. That is a factor of two error.
I have to think more about one foot radius and 45 rpm
and read upthread more.
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 12:25 Jeff Kaufman via Contra
Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I was curious about John's "The shoulder-blade
connection is purely to counteract centrifugal
force. That is not normally a lot of force, so it
shouldn’t make you tired." above. While ideally
you could measure this, I don't think swinging
with a scale between your hand and partner's back
and your hand would be comfortable, and it would
be hard to read. Let's try a bit of physics.
If you like to swing quickly you might go 4.5x
around in twelve beats, which is 45rpm at a tempo
of 120bpm. Let's guess the people each weigh 150lb
and approximate them as point masses two feet
apart. Doing some math:
r = 1ft
m = 300lb
ω = 45rpm = 0.75 hz
v = ω2πr
= 0.75 hz * 2π * 1ft
= 4.7 ft/s
F = mv^2/r
= 300lbm * (4.7 ft/s)^2 / 1ft
= 300lbm * 23ft / s^2
= 6662lbm * ft / s^2
1lbf = 32.17 lbm * ft / s^2
1lbm = 0.0311 lbf * s^2 / ft
F = 6662 lbm * ft / s^2
= 6662 * 0.0311 lbf
= 207lbf
This says you need ~216lb of force to hold the
dancers together! If you're rotating more slowly,
perhaps 2.5x in twelve beats, it's still a
significant 64lb.
Jeff
PS: If you want something you can play with, this
is (rpm/3 * 3.14)**2 * weight * 1/32.2
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:08 PM Jeff Kaufman
<jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Here's a 1989 recording the Portland OR dance
did in a recording studio:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k .
I see almost all "outer arms making a point,
gent's right hand behind lady's back, lady's
left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold
(hereafter 'ballroom' though as illustrated
above that's a fraught term). At 0:58 and
then again at 1:28, 1:58, 3:02 etc there's a
couple with a symmetrical hold where they each
have their right hand around the other's
waist, with their left hands joined low in the
center. I didn't watch the whole video, so
it's possible there were other couples that
did other holds at some point?
Here's 1987 in Mendocino:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q .
I only see ballroom holds.
Here's 1986 in Cambridge MA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q .
Outdoor demo performance. Almost all ballroom
holds, but at 4:04 the couple all the way on
the right has outer hands in a forearm hold
(which they continue doing in later iterations
of the dance).
Here's 1986 in Francestown NH:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE At
0:30 I see two ballroom holds and two where
the outer arms are holding a bit above the
elbows. At 1:06 I see two ballroom holds, one
of the hold from 0:30, and one of the
symmetrical holds I described in the Portland
OR video, though note that this is many of the
same couples. Jumping ahead to 8:38 I see
three ballroom holds and where the outer hands
hold each other's forearms. Separately, I
really like how enthusiastic the balances are:
you can feel the room shake through to the camera!
Here's one labeled 1986 Chico Contra:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg
Almost all ballroom holds, except for one
couple where the lady's left hand is on the
back of the gent's right arm instead of behind
his shoulder (doesn't look comfortable to me!)
Here's 1976 in Bloomington:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w .
Looks like a performance. At 0:10 I see three
couples where the outer hands are joined as in
ballroom, the gent's right hand is around the
lady's waist, and the lady's left hand is
again on the back of the gent's right arm.
Then there's one couple doing the symmetrical
swing with left hands joined low between their
bodies. Same again at 0:44, 1:11, etc.
Here's 1967 somewhere in New England:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM .
I see ballroom at 0:35, 0:37, 3:15, 3:16,
5:08, 5:10. Then at 1:05 (and then again in
the background at 5:11, and then again at 5:23
and 5:33) I see a forearm hold with arms that
are straighter than I'm used to. At 2:08 I
see a hold where the gents hands are both
around the lady's waist and the lady's hands
are both over the tops of the gent's shoulders.
Here's 1981 in Belmont MA, but it's an hour
and I'm going to bed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo
Jeff
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 4:33 PM Stein, Robert
<steinr(a)msu.edu> wrote:
The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling
also shows the same variety of swinging
styles from ballroom to various barrel holds.
Bob
_______________________________________________
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On Mar 26, 2024, at 16:13, Jeff Kaufman
via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Looking through old media to figure out
what swing positions were common sounds
like fun! I think video might be more
promising? Here's a few annotations of a
video, where the numbers are timestamps
and each bullet describes the couple
that's in the middle of the frame at the
timestamp. I only counted each couple once:
Cambridge MA, 1990:
https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC
* 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms,
gent's right hand behind lady's back,
gent's left hand behind lady's arm
* 4:12: outer arms making a point,
gent's right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
* 4:14: outer arms making a point,
lady's left hand on gent's shoulder,
gent's right hand on lady's back
* 4:44: outer arms making a point held
way out, lady's left hand behind gent's
shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back
* 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner
hands on backs with lady above gent
* 5:17: outer arms making a point held
low, gent's inner hand on lady's back,
lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder
* 5:18: outer arms making a point and
held out, gent's inner hand on lady's
back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm
* 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's
shoulders, gent's left hand behind lady's
elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back
* 5:49: outer arms making a point,
gent's right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
* 5:50: outer arms making a point,
gent's right hand behind lady's back,
lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
The "outer arms making a point, gent's
right hand behind lady's back, lady's left
hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I
think of as the standard today, was about
half of them, but there was quite a lot of
variation.
I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam
1975 clip, but there were too many cuts.
The 1964 video would be another one to try?
Jeff
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian
Blechner via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Responding to various points.
And, obligatory acknowledgement that
there's always regional differences (and,
perhaps ultimately that is what this
thread is really about?)
I beg you forgive me for directness, and
please assume a friendly tone and desire
for friendly discussion, as that's what's
intended.
I just thumbed through two big choreo
milestone books marking approximately the
beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra
- Balance and Swing, and Zesty Contras -
and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings.
The short version: despite being
contemporaries and the books published a
year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe
slightly different swing holds, where:
- a gent's right hand is either on the
waist on the small of the back (Sanella)
or a little higher (Jennings, via the
illustration on the cover which he points
out in the description is what to follow)
- a gent's left hand is either a typical
ballroom palm-up supporting the lady's
right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's
right upper arm (Jennings, with Sanella
noting the variation as well) - with a
lady's hands
- a lady's left hand is resting on the
top of the upper arm (Jennings) or "behind
the upper arm" (Sanella)
So even in 1982/1983, there was no
agreed traditional swing position, and
holds described by both did include women
holding men in ways that were supporting
from behind rather than everyone agreeing
that their hand is "resting on top" as
with other couples' dances.
Obviously dance evolves over time, and
I'll circle back around to that after I
touch on some specific points:
RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or
press back against the Leftie’s supporting
right hand."
Agree, these are bad habits. The
"leaning back" may be describing "the
feeling of centripetal force", but also I
have definitely experienced people who
lean back.
RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ...
forces the swing together because you are
limited to the length of the shorter arm."
I don't think this is accurate.
This was covered elsewhere in the
thread. The shoulderblade isn't small, and
adjustments can be made to adjust for
height or size differences. There's always
exceptions, sure.
Certainly, when I swing young kids,
we're not doing shoulderblades. Then
again, they have a lot less mass than an
adult, so there's less support that's
needed to be given.
RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the
middle of my back means you’re going to be
on top of me."
I agree, however, a good flat-palms
swing hold is not in the "middle" of the
back. There's a gap between
shoulderblades, so a hand in the middle is
partially off the shoulderblade.
I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it
as the curve of the hand often can
naturally curve around the shoulderblade.
RE: Neal: " if partners are the same
height/arm length then the arms are coming
in at the same point and going to the same
point, resulting in collision. SOMEONE has
to adjust up or down AND forward."
I mean, I suppose, technically speaking?
But I think everyone on this list here has
been dancing for years, and "elbow
collisions" isn't a thing I've really
experienced or heard discussed.
So, I conclude that this may in theory
be possible, but people just ... do it?
As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm
comes into a swing from a bit of an
under-scooping motion. As a
robin/righthand role, my left arm comes in
more open and I wait half a moment to let
the lark engage their right arm before I
try and wrap my right arm around.
It's similar-ish to the anticipation
leading into a good connection on a star
promenade.
Further to this point, if I were using
the traditional "woman left arm rests on
top", I'd have to wait until the lark's
arm has engaged, anyway.
Which means that traditionally, women
have done that extra bit of work in the
dance of that waiting, reading the other
dancer's movement, and timing their own
move --- and I wonder how much of that had
gone unnoticed.
This all said, the explanation that you
give, Neal, may not work as wellwhen it's
not taller men dancing with shorter women.
Some women are tall and dance the
Robin/Righthand role.
Some men are tall and dance the
Robin/Righthand role.
Some women are shorter and dance the
Lark/Lefthand role.
Some men are shorter and dance the
Lark/Lefthand role.
Some men dance with men, some women with
women.
Etc.
So dancing requires a need to adjust our
arms to "make a swing work for both
people" as a universal and generic skill.
Thankfully, I think it's one that's
actually more automatic than it may seem!
Regardless of how we discuss the
technical and kinesthetic aspects of
contra, I teach (and I think most callers
teach) that dancers need to adjust
themselves to every partner and neighbor,
and find a happy medium that works for
both people.
If someone doesn't want to put their
hand flat on my shoulderblade, that's fine
and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end
swing speed.
I think we all share the value that a
skilled contra dancer can adjust their
style to meet another dancer's differences
in size, height, ability, tiredness,
injury, age, etc.
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal
Schlein <nschlein(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Julian,
Regarding both dancers trying to put
their palm flat on the other persons back,
I agree with Joe.
The both-palms-flat swing does multiple
things.
First, it forces the swing together
because you are limited to the length of
the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with
broad shoulders and long arms—putting your
palm in the middle of my back means you’re
going to be on top of me. I don’t care who
I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not
OK with that. With a standard hold, I can
give partners lots of space. (Also, I
sweat from the head a lot. You want that
space, and no one wants their hand on my
back.)
Second, if partners are the same
height/arm length then the arms are coming
in at the same point and going to the same
point, resulting in collision. SOMEONE has
to adjust up or down AND forward. This
means a changed angle for one person, and
due to the change in angle a shortening of
the hold to match the arm that adjusted
(usually on top), thereby pulling the
swing closer together than otherwise
necessary…which also puts the other
person’s arm (typically lark, and also
typically longer) in a non-natural
position, which is likely to be physically
uncomfortable and potentially harmful.
Neal Schlein
Librarian, MSLIS
On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian
Blechner via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi Joe,
You mean, palms flat on the back of
shoulderblades? If so, it's how I teach
it, lots of callers teach it, and this is
the first I've heard a complaint about it.
That said, you describe: "I've had my
elbow bent backward by eager robins
pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in
the right place."
That _sounds like_ what I call "arm
clamping". While yes, putting Robin's hand
on the outside of the shoulder also
alleviates the clamping, it's not the only
way to fix it. A Robin can lift their
elbow. (I just workshopped the issue with
my partner in the living room to test a
variety of height and holds out to confirm
what you were saying, as well.)
The other issue is that if both dancers
don't have hands flat on the backs of each
other, it's more difficult to maintain an
open frame when swinging. One usually
winds up _closer_ when hands are resting
on shoulders, unless one dancer is
significantly stronger and the other is
fairly petite.
I know that my right arm will get
seriously fatigued and sore if I have an
evening too many times as Lark with Robins
providing insufficient support. And I've
heard plenty of dancers say similar.
That said, all bodies are different. If
yours works where the swing hold works
better for you the way you describe, that
is what it is, yeah? But I might recommend
considering workshopping swings further,
because what you're requesting is counter
to prevailing teaching. If I understand
correctly (and it's always possible I'm
missing something.)
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe
Harrington <contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Not the standard ballroom, with the
robin's arm on top of the lark's, but an
alternative that I've seen occasionally,
but for a number of years now, where the
robin tries to put their left hand in the
same location on the lark's back as the
lark has their right hand on the robin's
back. I know at least one prominent
caller who teaches this hold in their
newbie workshop and tells their dancers
that both sides need to do this to provide
equal support in the swing.
While I like the principle, the practice
can hurt. If the dancers are not grossly
mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be
possible to do this without their elbows
occupying the same space. I've had my
elbow bent backward by eager robins
pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in
the right place. Even if it doesn't go
all the way to pain, it pretty much
eliminates my ability to provide any
support, unless I "fight back" by pushing
my elbow out and resisting the inward
pressure, essentially refusing the
position. I'm also focusing entirely on
protecting my elbow, so it kills any
enjoyment in that swing.
Please gently discourage this hold. If
a robin wants to give major support in a
swing, the symmetric swing holds, the
barrel, the one Jeff described, or even a
mirror of the ballroom where the lark's
arm is on top are much better
opportunities. A robin whose arm is
longer than their lark's arm can also
reach over or around the shoulder in a
ballroom hold (robin's arm on top) to add
support. Just don't push down on the
shoulder.
--jh--
On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian
Blechner <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
JJ,
I like your point about the sort of
code-switching that the asymmetry of a
ballroom hold provides to reinforce what
role one is dancing.
Joe,
I don't understand what you mean about
the ballroom hold having elbows occupy the
same space. I think I'd need to see it (in
person or picture). That said, it raises
the broader issue, which is the overall
topic, that everyone has different
physical needs and finding happy mediums
is our goal for everyone dancing together.
Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as
such is a good reminder for me that no one
- not even seasoned callers - can
anticipate every need or difference.
In dance,
Julian Blechner
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ
<jcgj95(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Personally for me, the standard ballroom
swing helps me to "flip the switch" in the
brain on which side of the swing I'm
"supposed to" end on (assuming we're not
switching roles back and forth for fun
lol). If my left arm is the "pointy arm,"
I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is
the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right.
I don't have to consciously tell myself
"I'm the Lark" or "I'm the
Robin," my
muscle memory just takes over and I just
end on whichever side my arm position
tells me to 😅.
I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not
planning on switching roles without
warning through an individual dance, I
tend to stick with the traditional
ballroom figure.
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman
via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
"At the time, it almost never happened
that the one in the lady's role actually
swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that
became the norm."
When I started dancing both roles,
around 2005, I remember initially doing it
as you said, with gender-neutral swings
with the gents I encountered. I remember
being surprised sometime around 2006-2007
when I ran into a few guys dancing switch
who indicated they wanted to do the
standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I
think my male friends and I were dancing
the lady's role in the standard way?
Jeff
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe
Harrington via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I love the barrel hold, but some of my
partners have reacted in a way that
indicated it was too intimate for them.
This is especially true if I have to lean
over to do it, as that puts my face pretty
close to theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's
also difficult to do without frontal
contact if one or both partners is well on
the heavy side. But, all that aside, if
you and your partner like fast swings,
it's a great hold, more stable than
ballroom, with four arms providing support
rather than one.
In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when
guys danced the lady's role (using the
terminology of the time for reasons you'll
see in a moment), we'd almost universally
be offered the "gender-neutral swing",
which is symmetrical and very stable for
fast swinging: both right arms are around
the other's back and both left arms go
over/around the other's right arm, bend 90
degrees at the elbow, pass between you,
and clasp left hands around each other's
forearms between your bodies. At the
time, it almost never happened that the
one in the lady's role actually swung like
a lady. I'm not sure when that became the
norm. I would occasionally do it with a
particular guy partner whom I liked to
dance with. We practiced it first and
then did it with each other, but we
gender-neutral-swung our neighbors. We
got some pretty surprised looks from our
neighbors when we swung each other. At
least one guy asked me if that partner and
I were an item. Times and role terms and
what people read into dance behavior change...
In general, I'm quite happy to swing
with guys in either role when they're
happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward
and uncomfortable in the extreme to be
going up an entire line of consecutive
frowns, growls, and looks of disgust as a
guy dancing the robbin...enough that I
haven't returned to the dance weekend
where that happened in Fall 2022, even
though it was pretty great in other ways.
The one swing style I really dislike is
a modified ballroom position where the
robbin tries to put their hand on the
lark's back in the same place where the
lark's hand is on theirs. I know some
people actually teach it this way, I guess
as some kind of equality thing. It's
terrible, because their elbow and the
lark's elbow then have to occupy the same
space, which, well, physics. If I'm the
lark and their arm is outside mine, when
they try to provide support, it
hyperextends my right elbow, eliminating
any chance I can provide support and
sometimes inducing pain before I can
either force my elbow back out, displacing
their hand from my back, or pull my arm up
to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the
traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can
convince everyone to stop teaching this
hold, as it usually doesn't work as
intended and it can hurt the lark.
One assist that does work in ballroom
position and requires no communication is,
if the robbin's arm is as long as or
longer than the lark's, they rest their
left arm on the lark's right, extending
the entire length of the arm and then
reaching around/over the lark's shoulder
to provide some support on the shoulder
blade. In my case, at least, if they are
short enough that they can't do this, then
they're often also light enough that
additional support isn't critical, though
it does make for more connection. It's
important not to press down on the
shoulder, though. Only pull forward.
--jh--
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian
Blechner via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
At the last couple of dances in the last
few days, I thought about this email
thread and observations.
Short and simple:
A "barrel hold" swing:
- Seemed to provide a little bit more
space than a ballroom hold
- One neighbor offered it (by chance)
really clearly, as a lark, with his left
arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug"
type position. As we engaged in the swing
hold, he placed his left arm in place, and
it guided things in. It worked pretty well
for me, at least as an experienced dancer.
In dance,
-Julian Blechner
On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM
becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I can’t answer whether the robin's would
always HAVE to go above the lark’s in the
modified ballroom swing, but I would
intuitively think that having that
rule/understanding might make it easier
for dancers to make the transition from
ballroom to modified ballroom because the
robin’s arm is always on top in standard
ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is
typically cupped upwards with the robin’s
hand above the lark’s in things like a
balance or even a handhold in a circle
move, so having the hand/arm orientations
the same in the swing would also seem more
intuitive to me if I were just learning
this swing.
Becky
> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine
Kitching via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Hi John, thanks for all your comments.
I like this swing at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs
from 0:05 to 0:15 - for spacing -- and I'm
going to introduce it at our next dance!
Though what I think Becky found
interesting about the variation we're
working on is that it retains the "pointy
hands", which can be useful.
>
> The one thing that I was confused about
when I read your message: you say when
you tried the swing variation our group
has been experimenting with (visual at
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
<https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0>
)
> -- you say that you found the grip
insufficient, for the arms that are
holding just above the elbow.
>
> But in my mind, this hold that me and
my partner are doing with his left hand my
right hand , is supposed to be the same
as the hold you use in this video of yours
- (but in your case, your left hand and
her right hand.)
> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but
it is what I intended:
>
https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
<https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198>
>> Starts at 3:18.
>> Thoughts?
>
>> Also, is anyone able to answer my
question to Winston -
>
>> Is it a given, due to something in the
asymmetric nature of the hold, that in
this video referenced by Allan -
>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8
or in the photo I shared above via
Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will
*always* go above the Lark's arm?
>
>> Or could the placement of the arms vary
depending on the relative height of the
two dancing partners?
> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a
5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm still
be above the Lark's?
>
>> Thanks all!
>> Kat K in Halifax
>>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers
>>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
>>> Hi Kat,
>>> Yes, I thought you meant something
like you show in your photo. When you
mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it
is what I call a Foreshortened Hold in my
video and brings you closer together
rather than further apart.
>>
>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold
from the cover of Zesty Contras and love
it. I was surprised when I analysed the
600 dancers at a contra dance at The
Flurry and realised that nobody else was
using it!
>>
>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold
Swing and didn't feel that it really
worked. With my right arm underneath there
didn't seem to be enough connection to
have a really good swing unless Karen
gripped my arm. I felt that my hand might
slide down. With my right arm on top Karen
felt that it was pulling on her shoulder
even though I wasn't gripping - it was
just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be
using that one.
>>
>> Re all the references to sore
arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest problem
is that people are told to "give weight".
I don't want your weight! People
misunderstand and lean back or sideways.
If people control their own weight then
all the connection has to do is counter
centrifugal force and that it not a lot
inless you spin really fast.
>>
>> I always start a Swing lesson by
getting the dancers to Buzz on the spot BY
THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they
keep their own balance and weight.
>>
>> I have had major operations on both my
shoulders (too much Repetitive Strain
Injury from another style of dance that is
taught badly, and then lots of Aerials:
https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT
- maybe I shouldn't have started doing
those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't
afford to let people damage my shoulders.
With a good partner I can Swing at high
speeds with no problem. Whenever someone
leans back or sideways I just slow the
Swing down and lessen my connection so
that they have to take their own weight or
fall over.
>>
>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to
keep their own weight you will find it is
much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
>>
>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the
feet interleaved. They seem to do it
without any problem. It is just a
different feel and takes some getting used to.
>>
>> Someone mentioned the challenges with
being too close in a Ceilidh Swing
(http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh
) - you could always try the Forearm Swing
instead
(http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked
) - same principle, but further apart so
no bodily contact.
>>
>> Happy dancing,
>> John
>>
>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England
john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802
940 574
Dancing in Kent
>>
>>
>>
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>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about
the proximity of bodies and lack of
physical air space between them. The huge
difference between a swing in contra vs.,
say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing
dance with someone, is that by agreeing to
dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY
opposite-role person in the line, not just
the person you asked to dance. That’s a
much bigger commitment to physical
contact/intimacy than saying yes to one
person.
>>
>> As a side note, before we got rid of a
lecherous dancer in our group a few years
ago, MANY women in our dance group chose
their contra dance line specifically to
avoid having to swing with him. The most
important intervention was, of course, to
establish a code of conduct which we used
to remove him from the dance group (when
it became clear he would not agree to
change his behaviour). But for women (and
others, but it’s always been women who
have said this to me over the years), when
they come to a dance not KNOWING whether
there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is
asking quite a lot to expect them to do a
ballroom swing with whoever comes at them.
I am wondering whether the modified
ballroom hold might make contra feel
safer, especially for new dancers.
>>
>> I’d love to hear what folks who have
used both feel about the difference.
>>
>> Becky
>>
>>
>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian
Blechner <juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I would love to read elaboration /
articulation on why a ballroom hold feels
more "intimate" than other holds?
>>
>>
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>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
>> I would love to read elaboration /
articulation on why a ballroom hold feels
more "intimate" than other holds?
>>
>> Is it a matter of the historical
social attachment we have in our minds
with couples dances that use the hold, and
romance in our culture?
>>
>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find
ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed arms
has my hands bearish their belly which has
its own intimacy to me, though sometimes
barrel holds can be done with a bit more
space - though I wouldn't say the default)
>>
>> Is it something else?
>>
>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd
give insight to what a solution to an
alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted
mindset might entail?
>>>
>>> In dance,
>>> Julian Blechner
>>> He/him
>>> Western Mass
>>
>>
>>
>>>
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>
>
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29 Mar
29 Mar
12:56 p.m.
So I think a really interesting question is what's happening physically
when we experience "supporting" our partner as was described upthread and I
had a thought but I'm not convinced I'm right.
To be stable, the torque also has to be balanced. Not the torque around the
flagpole axis, but around an axis tangential to our line of travel through
our individual center of mass.
The torques we need to balance are the tension between the two dancers and
the normal and friction forces from the floor.
I think generally the connection point is above the center of mass. Our
centripetal force has to be pulling us inward. Let's call this positive
torque.
To counterbalance this (and thus keep us from having our feet fly out
behind us) we have two options. We can move our center of mass farther from
our partner than our ground contact point so that the normal adds the
counterbalancing torque, or we can add centripetal force from the friction.
I suspect we do a little of both, but I think a good feeling swing is
mostly the leaning back a little solution (i.e. using the normal)
However, if we teach people to lean back to five weight, they might over do
the lean. At this point, the normal torque becomes much higher because of
the higher effective torque radius. To keep from falling over, that means
we have to add a whole bunch of either extra tension force OR friction
force pushing you apart. Or both.
At this point we have to jump back to the force equation again. If we're
swinging fast enough, the extra tension force becomes our centripetal force
and we're doing a really fast swing and just leaning back a bit.
But if we're not, then we need a whole bunch of that friction force pushing
you apart. But that's the opposite of the force your connection is
providing.
When I think of swings where I felt like I was holding up my partner, I can
remember having to push back away from my partner with my feet. All of a
sudden I'm providing two forces that are cancelling out instead of helping
me spin.
It is also possible you're pulling up as well. That will also cancel the
torque.
This all assumes rigid body physics (which is not the same as rigid bodies
biologically. More like having an active core biologically.)
More thought is needed.
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 22:41 David Harding via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Thank you, Jeff, for venturing this calculation.
I've been meaning to try
the numbers for some time. I got as far as doing the equations in my head
last night, but couldn't put in numbers before falling asleep.
Chris is right about the factor of two in the equation for the masses.
Think about the center of mass of the whole system. That is the motionless
point you are turning around. In a previous thread someone compared the
effect to holding onto a fixed pole and swinging around that. The same
centripetal force would be needed to keep you on track as though you had an
equal mass partner with equally long arms. Replacing the pole with a
partner does not change that force.
Chris also makes the good point about that centripetal force being
provided by two arms or even four arms in a barrel hold.
Thinking about the numbers, let's look at the distance traveled. Suppose
the radius is 1 foot. The circumference is a little over 6 feet (2*pi).
4.5 revolutions would be a little over 28 feet. Doing that in 12 beats
(steps), not allowing any time for stepping in after the balance or opening
up after the swing, means 2.4 feet per step, which seems long to me. I'm
guessing that a two-foot separation of the dancers' centers of gravity is
incompatible with 4.5 revolutions in 12 beats. Also, that's a 135 degree
twist of the planted foot on each step which may be aggressive for most
dancers in a swing.
Looking at the contribution to the centripetal force from the feet, it's
important to note that the friction force there is applied much farther
from the dancer's center of mass vertically than in the case of any arm
connection. If you weren't holding on to your partner, you'd need to lean
in a little to keep your balance, while an earlier theme of this thread was
increasing the separation between dancers. I'm getting away from
quantitative here, but note that if you are turning 135 degrees with each
step, you want low friction which may limit your ability to apply a
centripetal force with your feet.
It's complicated.
David
On 3/27/2024 4:58 PM, Julian Blechner via Contra Callers wrote:
I had poked around with the math as well, but struggled with all of the
estimates. I'm happy to see Jeff taking a stab at this and discussing.
I think likely some of that force is taken by core muscles, and
transferred to the feet against floor, and such.
This would be a really cool practical kinesthetics research paper!
Julian
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 1:28 PM Jeff Kaufman <jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>
> Thanks! Note that it's a bit more complicated than where the center of
> mass is: you need the moment of inertia. For example, imagine comparing
> (a) a point mass at r=1ft and (b) the same mass divided into two bits at
> r=2ft and r=0ft. The center of mass in case (b) still rotates with r=1ft
> but the cases aren't equivalent: you need 2x the force in case (b). [1]
>
> But you may well be right that the effective radius is under 1ft!
>
> Jeff
>
> [1] Doing the math:
>
> F_a = m (ω2πr)^2 / r = m * r * (ω2π)^2
> F_b = m/2 (ω2π(2r))^2 / (2r) + 0 = m * r * 2 * (ω2π)^2
> F_a = 1/2 * F_b
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 1:18 PM Chris Lahey <clahey(a)clahey.net> wrote:
>
>> I addressed this in my other email, but this is a good example. In this
>> case my back is providing 100lbf to your hands.
>>
>> I also can't imagine being in this position and having centers of mass
>> two feet apart, but I would want to measure it before making this an
>> argument, hence going with your numbers.
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 13:15 Jeff Kaufman <jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Chris,
>>>
>>> Thanks for reviewing the calculation! Imagine that I hold you around
>>> your back with both hands, and you put your hands up in the air and enjoy
>>> the ride. While I don't think we could get anywhere near 4.5x around in
12
>>> beats if you did that, do you agree that where my hands meet your back
I'd
>>> need to provide both enough force for our combined weight?
>>>
>>> (I'm not claiming each person needs to provide ~200lb, but that this
>>> total force must be covered by the couple somehow)
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:56 PM Chris Lahey <clahey(a)clahey.net>
wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think you're trying to calculate two 150lb dancers, but you've
>>>> calculated for a 300lb mass, but you shouldn't do that doubling.
I'm
>>>> exerting enough force to provide your centripetal force and vice versa.
>>>> Those forces oppose one another, but they don't add up. That is a
factor of
>>>> two error.
>>>>
>>>> I have to think more about one foot radius and 45 rpm and read
>>>> upthread more.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 12:25 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I was curious about John's "The shoulder-blade connection is
purely
>>>>> to counteract centrifugal force. That is not normally a lot of
force, so
>>>>> it shouldn’t make you tired." above. While ideally you could
measure this,
>>>>> I don't think swinging with a scale between your hand and
partner's back
>>>>> and your hand would be comfortable, and it would be hard to read.
Let's
>>>>> try a bit of physics.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you like to swing quickly you might go 4.5x around in twelve
>>>>> beats, which is 45rpm at a tempo of 120bpm. Let's guess the
people each
>>>>> weigh 150lb and approximate them as point masses two feet apart.
Doing some
>>>>> math:
>>>>>
>>>>> r = 1ft
>>>>> m = 300lb
>>>>> ω = 45rpm = 0.75 hz
>>>>>
>>>>> v = ω2πr
>>>>> = 0.75 hz * 2π * 1ft
>>>>> = 4.7 ft/s
>>>>>
>>>>> F = mv^2/r
>>>>> = 300lbm * (4.7 ft/s)^2 / 1ft
>>>>> = 300lbm * 23ft / s^2
>>>>> = 6662lbm * ft / s^2
>>>>>
>>>>> 1lbf = 32.17 lbm * ft / s^2
>>>>> 1lbm = 0.0311 lbf * s^2 / ft
>>>>>
>>>>> F = 6662 lbm * ft / s^2
>>>>> = 6662 * 0.0311 lbf
>>>>> = 207lbf
>>>>>
>>>>> This says you need ~216lb of force to hold the dancers together! If
>>>>> you're rotating more slowly, perhaps 2.5x in twelve beats,
it's still a
>>>>> significant 64lb.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>> PS: If you want something you can play with, this is (rpm/3 *
>>>>> 3.14)**2 * weight * 1/32.2
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:08 PM Jeff Kaufman <
>>>>> jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's a 1989 recording the Portland OR dance did in a
recording
>>>>>> studio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k . I see
almost
>>>>>> all "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind
lady's back,
>>>>>> lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold
(hereafter 'ballroom' though
>>>>>> as illustrated above that's a fraught term). At 0:58 and
then again at
>>>>>> 1:28, 1:58, 3:02 etc there's a couple with a symmetrical hold
where they
>>>>>> each have their right hand around the other's waist, with
their left hands
>>>>>> joined low in the center. I didn't watch the whole video, so
it's possible
>>>>>> there were other couples that did other holds at some point?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's 1987 in Mendocino:
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q . I only see
ballroom
>>>>>> holds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's 1986 in Cambridge MA:
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q . Outdoor demo
>>>>>> performance. Almost all ballroom holds, but at 4:04 the couple
all the way
>>>>>> on the right has outer hands in a forearm hold (which they
continue doing
>>>>>> in later iterations of the dance).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's 1986 in Francestown NH:
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE At 0:30 I see two
>>>>>> ballroom holds and two where the outer arms are holding a bit
above the
>>>>>> elbows. At 1:06 I see two ballroom holds, one of the hold from
0:30, and
>>>>>> one of the symmetrical holds I described in the Portland OR
video, though
>>>>>> note that this is many of the same couples. Jumping ahead to
8:38 I see
>>>>>> three ballroom holds and where the outer hands hold each
other's forearms.
>>>>>> Separately, I really like how enthusiastic the balances are: you
can feel
>>>>>> the room shake through to the camera!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's one labeled 1986 Chico Contra:
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg Almost all ballroom
>>>>>> holds, except for one couple where the lady's left hand is on
the back of
>>>>>> the gent's right arm instead of behind his shoulder
(doesn't look
>>>>>> comfortable to me!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's 1976 in Bloomington:
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w . Looks like a
>>>>>> performance. At 0:10 I see three couples where the outer hands
are joined
>>>>>> as in ballroom, the gent's right hand is around the
lady's waist, and the
>>>>>> lady's left hand is again on the back of the gent's right
arm. Then
>>>>>> there's one couple doing the symmetrical swing with left
hands joined low
>>>>>> between their bodies. Same again at 0:44, 1:11, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's 1967 somewhere in New England:
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM . I see ballroom at
>>>>>> 0:35, 0:37, 3:15, 3:16, 5:08, 5:10. Then at 1:05 (and then again
in the
>>>>>> background at 5:11, and then again at 5:23 and 5:33) I see a
forearm hold
>>>>>> with arms that are straighter than I'm used to. At 2:08 I
see a hold where
>>>>>> the gents hands are both around the lady's waist and the
lady's hands are
>>>>>> both over the tops of the gent's shoulders.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's 1981 in Belmont MA, but it's an hour and I'm
going to bed:
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 4:33 PM Stein, Robert
<steinr(a)msu.edu>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the
same
>>>>>>> variety of swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel
holds.
>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > On Mar 26, 2024, at 16:13, Jeff Kaufman via Contra
Callers <
>>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Looking through old media to figure out what swing
positions were
>>>>>>> common sounds like fun! I think video might be more
promising? Here's a
>>>>>>> few annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps
and each
>>>>>>> bullet describes the couple that's in the middle of the
frame at the
>>>>>>> timestamp. I only counted each couple once:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Cambridge MA, 1990:
>>>>>>> https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC
>>>>>>> > * 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms,
gent's right hand behind
>>>>>>> lady's back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm
>>>>>>> > * 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand
behind
>>>>>>> lady's back, lady's left hand behind gent's
shoulder
>>>>>>> > * 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's left hand
on gent's
>>>>>>> shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back
>>>>>>> > * 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out,
lady's left hand
>>>>>>> behind gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on
lady's back
>>>>>>> > * 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on backs
with lady
>>>>>>> above gent
>>>>>>> > * 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's
inner hand on
>>>>>>> lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's
shoulder
>>>>>>> > * 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out,
gent's inner hand
>>>>>>> on lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's
arm
>>>>>>> > * 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's
shoulders, gent's left
>>>>>>> hand behind lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind
lady's back
>>>>>>> > * 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand
behind
>>>>>>> lady's back, lady's left hand behind gent's
shoulder
>>>>>>> > * 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand
behind
>>>>>>> lady's back, lady's left hand behind gent's
shoulder
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > The "outer arms making a point, gent's right
hand behind lady's
>>>>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder"
hold, which I think of as
>>>>>>> the standard today, was about half of them, but there was
quite a lot of
>>>>>>> variation.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975 clip, but
there were
>>>>>>> too many cuts. The 1964 video would be another one to try?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Jeff
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via
Contra
>>>>>>> Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> > Responding to various points.
>>>>>>> > And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always
regional
>>>>>>> differences (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread
is really
>>>>>>> about?)
>>>>>>> > I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a
friendly
>>>>>>> tone and desire for friendly discussion, as that's
what's intended.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books
marking
>>>>>>> approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of
contra - Balance and
>>>>>>> Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and
Larry Jennings.
>>>>>>> > The short version: despite being contemporaries and the
books
>>>>>>> published a year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe
slightly different
>>>>>>> swing holds, where:
>>>>>>> > - a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the
small of the
>>>>>>> back (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the
illustration on the
>>>>>>> cover which he points out in the description is what to
follow)
>>>>>>> > - a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom
palm-up
>>>>>>> supporting the lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the
lady's right upper
>>>>>>> arm (Jennings, with Sanella noting the variation as well) -
with a lady's
>>>>>>> hands
>>>>>>> > - a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the
upper arm
>>>>>>> (Jennings) or "behind the upper arm" (Sanella)
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional
swing
>>>>>>> position, and holds described by both did include women
holding men in ways
>>>>>>> that were supporting from behind rather than everyone
agreeing that their
>>>>>>> hand is "resting on top" as with other couples'
dances.
>>>>>>> > Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle
back around to
>>>>>>> that after I touch on some specific points:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back
against the
>>>>>>> Leftie’s supporting right hand."
>>>>>>> > Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning
back" may be describing
>>>>>>> "the feeling of centripetal force", but also I have
definitely experienced
>>>>>>> people who lean back.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the
swing together
>>>>>>> because you are limited to the length of the shorter
arm."
>>>>>>> > I don't think this is accurate.
>>>>>>> > This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The
shoulderblade isn't
>>>>>>> small, and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or
size
>>>>>>> differences. There's always exceptions, sure.
>>>>>>> > Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing
>>>>>>> shoulderblades. Then again, they have a lot less mass than an
adult, so
>>>>>>> there's less support that's needed to be given.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my
back means
>>>>>>> you’re going to be on top of me."
>>>>>>> > I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in
the
>>>>>>> "middle" of the back. There's a gap between
shoulderblades, so a hand in
>>>>>>> the middle is partially off the shoulderblade.
>>>>>>> > I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of
the hand
>>>>>>> often can naturally curve around the shoulderblade.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm
length then the
>>>>>>> arms are coming in at the same point and going to the same
point, resulting
>>>>>>> in collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND
forward."
>>>>>>> > I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think
everyone on
>>>>>>> this list here has been dancing for years, and "elbow
collisions" isn't a
>>>>>>> thing I've really experienced or heard discussed.
>>>>>>> > So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but
people
>>>>>>> just ... do it?
>>>>>>> > As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing
from a
>>>>>>> bit of an under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role,
my left arm
>>>>>>> comes in more open and I wait half a moment to let the lark
engage their
>>>>>>> right arm before I try and wrap my right arm around.
>>>>>>> > It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a
good
>>>>>>> connection on a star promenade.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Further to this point, if I were using the traditional
"woman
>>>>>>> left arm rests on top", I'd have to wait until the
lark's arm has engaged,
>>>>>>> anyway.
>>>>>>> > Which means that traditionally, women have done that
extra bit of
>>>>>>> work in the dance of that waiting, reading the other
dancer's movement, and
>>>>>>> timing their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had
gone unnoticed.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may
not work
>>>>>>> as wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter
women.
>>>>>>> > Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
>>>>>>> > Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
>>>>>>> > Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand
role.
>>>>>>> > Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
>>>>>>> > Some men dance with men, some women with women.
>>>>>>> > Etc.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to
"make a swing
>>>>>>> work for both people" as a universal and generic skill.
>>>>>>> > Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually
more automatic than
>>>>>>> it may seem!
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Regardless of how we discuss the technical and
kinesthetic
>>>>>>> aspects of contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach)
that dancers
>>>>>>> need to adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and
find a happy
>>>>>>> medium that works for both people.
>>>>>>> > If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on
my
>>>>>>> shoulderblade, that's fine and I'll adjust by
limiting my upper-end swing
>>>>>>> speed.
>>>>>>> > I think we all share the value that a skilled contra
dancer can
>>>>>>> adjust their style to meet another dancer's differences
in size, height,
>>>>>>> ability, tiredness, injury, age, etc.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > In dance,
>>>>>>> > Julian Blechner
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein
<nschlein(a)gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> > Hi Julian,
>>>>>>> > Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on
the other
>>>>>>> persons back, I agree with Joe.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > First, it forces the swing together because you are
limited to
>>>>>>> the length of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad
shoulders and
>>>>>>> long arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means
you’re going to
>>>>>>> be on top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want
space, and I’m
>>>>>>> not OK with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners
lots of
>>>>>>> space. (Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that
space, and no
>>>>>>> one wants their hand on my back.)
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then
the arms
>>>>>>> are coming in at the same point and going to the same point,
resulting in
>>>>>>> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This
means a
>>>>>>> changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle
a shortening
>>>>>>> of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top),
thereby
>>>>>>> pulling the swing closer together than otherwise
necessary…which also puts
>>>>>>> the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically
longer) in a
>>>>>>> non-natural position, which is likely to be physically
uncomfortable and
>>>>>>> potentially harmful.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Neal Schlein
>>>>>>> > Librarian, MSLIS
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via
Contra
>>>>>>> Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> > Hi Joe,
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If
so, it's
>>>>>>> how I teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the
first I've heard
>>>>>>> a complaint about it.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow
bent backward by
>>>>>>> eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the
right place."
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping".
While yes, putting
>>>>>>> Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also
alleviates the clamping,
>>>>>>> it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their
elbow. (I just
>>>>>>> workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to
test a variety
>>>>>>> of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as
well.)
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > The other issue is that if both dancers don't have
hands flat on
>>>>>>> the backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain
an open frame when
>>>>>>> swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are
resting on
>>>>>>> shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and
the other is
>>>>>>> fairly petite.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and
sore if
>>>>>>> I have an evening too many times as Lark with Robins
providing insufficient
>>>>>>> support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > That said, all bodies are different. If yours works
where the
>>>>>>> swing hold works better for you the way you describe, that is
what it is,
>>>>>>> yeah? But I might recommend considering workshopping swings
further,
>>>>>>> because what you're requesting is counter to prevailing
teaching. If I
>>>>>>> understand correctly (and it's always possible I'm
missing something.)
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > In dance,
>>>>>>> > Julian Blechner
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <
>>>>>>> contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> > Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on
top of the
>>>>>>> lark's, but an alternative that I've seen
occasionally, but for a number of
>>>>>>> years now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in
the same
>>>>>>> location on the lark's back as the lark has their right
hand on the robin's
>>>>>>> back. I know at least one prominent caller who teaches this
hold in their
>>>>>>> newbie workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need
to do this to
>>>>>>> provide equal support in the swing.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If
the dancers
>>>>>>> are not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't
be possible to do
>>>>>>> this without their elbows occupying the same space. I've
had my elbow bent
>>>>>>> backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their
elbow in the
>>>>>>> right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain,
it pretty much
>>>>>>> eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I
"fight back" by
>>>>>>> pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure,
essentially
>>>>>>> refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on
protecting my elbow,
>>>>>>> so it kills any enjoyment in that swing.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to
give
>>>>>>> major support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the
barrel, the one
>>>>>>> Jeff described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the
lark's arm is on
>>>>>>> top are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is
longer than their
>>>>>>> lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in
a ballroom hold
>>>>>>> (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push
down on the shoulder.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > --jh--
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner <
>>>>>>> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> > JJ,
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I like your point about the sort of code-switching that
the
>>>>>>> asymmetry of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role
one is dancing.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Joe,
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom
hold having
>>>>>>> elbows occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it
(in person or
>>>>>>> picture). That said, it raises the broader issue, which is
the overall
>>>>>>> topic, that everyone has different physical needs and finding
happy mediums
>>>>>>> is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with
ballroom hold
>>>>>>> handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not
even seasoned
>>>>>>> callers - can anticipate every need or difference.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > In dance,
>>>>>>> > Julian Blechner
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ
<jcgj95(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> > Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me
to "flip
>>>>>>> the switch" in the brain on which side of the swing
I'm "supposed to" end
>>>>>>> on (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for
fun lol). If my
>>>>>>> left arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the
left; if my right arm is
>>>>>>> the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I
don't have to consciously tell
>>>>>>> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the
Robin," my muscle memory just takes over
>>>>>>> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to
😅.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on
switching
>>>>>>> roles without warning through an individual dance, I tend to
stick with the
>>>>>>> traditional ballroom figure.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra
Callers <
>>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> > "At the time, it almost never happened that the one
in the lady's
>>>>>>> role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that
became the norm."
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I
remember
>>>>>>> initially doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings
with the gents I
>>>>>>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around
2006-2007 when I
>>>>>>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted
to do the
>>>>>>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends
and I were
>>>>>>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Jeff
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via
Contra
>>>>>>> Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> > I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have
reacted in a
>>>>>>> way that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is
especially true
>>>>>>> if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty
close to
>>>>>>> theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do
without frontal
>>>>>>> contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side.
But, all that
>>>>>>> aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a
great hold, more
>>>>>>> stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather
than one.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the
lady's
>>>>>>> role (using the terminology of the time for reasons
you'll see in a
>>>>>>> moment), we'd almost universally be offered the
"gender-neutral swing",
>>>>>>> which is symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both
right arms are
>>>>>>> around the other's back and both left arms go over/around
the other's right
>>>>>>> arm, bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and
clasp left hands
>>>>>>> around each other's forearms between your bodies. At the
time, it almost
>>>>>>> never happened that the one in the lady's role actually
swung like a lady.
>>>>>>> I'm not sure when that became the norm. I would
occasionally do it with a
>>>>>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We
practiced it first
>>>>>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung
our
>>>>>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our
neighbors when we
>>>>>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner
and I were an
>>>>>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance
behavior
>>>>>>> change...
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in
either role
>>>>>>> when they're happy to swing with me. But, it's
awkward and uncomfortable
>>>>>>> in the extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive
frowns, growls,
>>>>>>> and looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough
that I haven't
>>>>>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall
2022, even though
>>>>>>> it was pretty great in other ways.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > The one swing style I really dislike is a modified
ballroom
>>>>>>> position where the robbin tries to put their hand on the
lark's back in the
>>>>>>> same place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know
some people actually
>>>>>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing.
It's terrible,
>>>>>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to
occupy the same
>>>>>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their
arm is outside
>>>>>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my
right elbow,
>>>>>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes
inducing pain
>>>>>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their
hand from my
>>>>>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror
of the
>>>>>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone
to stop
>>>>>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as
intended and it can hurt
>>>>>>> the lark.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > One assist that does work in ballroom position and
requires no
>>>>>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or
longer than the
>>>>>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right,
extending the entire
>>>>>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the
lark's shoulder to
>>>>>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at
least, if they
>>>>>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then
they're often also light
>>>>>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it
does make for more
>>>>>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the
shoulder, though. Only
>>>>>>> pull forward.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > --jh--
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via
Contra
>>>>>>> Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> > At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I
thought
>>>>>>> about this email thread and observations.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Short and simple:
>>>>>>> > A "barrel hold" swing:
>>>>>>> > - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a
ballroom hold
>>>>>>> > - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as
a lark,
>>>>>>> with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a
hug" type position. As we
>>>>>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place,
and it guided
>>>>>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an
experienced dancer.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > In dance,
>>>>>>> > -Julian Blechner
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via
Contra
>>>>>>> Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> > I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE
to go above
>>>>>>> the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would
intuitively think
>>>>>>> that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for
dancers to
>>>>>>> make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom
because the robin’s
>>>>>>> arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the
lark’s hand is
>>>>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the
lark’s in things
>>>>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having
the hand/arm
>>>>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more
intuitive to me if
>>>>>>> I were just learning this swing.
>>>>>>> > Becky
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via
Contra
>>>>>>> Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this
swing at
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15
-
>>>>>>> for spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next
dance! Though
>>>>>>> what I think Becky found interesting about the variation
we're working on
>>>>>>> is that it retains the "pointy hands", which can be
useful.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> The one thing that I was confused about when I read
your
>>>>>>> message: you say when you tried the swing variation our
group has been
>>>>>>> experimenting with (visual at
>>>>>>>
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
>>>>>>> )
>>>>>>> >> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for
the arms
>>>>>>> that are holding just above the elbow.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are
doing with
>>>>>>> his left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as
the hold you
>>>>>>> use in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left
hand and her
>>>>>>> right hand.)
>>>>>>> >> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is
what I intended:
>>>>>>> >>
https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
>>>>>>> >> Starts at 3:18.
>>>>>>> >> Thoughts?
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to
Winston -
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric
nature of the
>>>>>>> hold, that in this video referenced by Allan -
>>>>>>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 or in
the photo I
>>>>>>> shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will
*always* go above the
>>>>>>> Lark's arm?
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on
the
>>>>>>> relative height of the two dancing partners?
>>>>>>> >> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5'
tall Robin, would the
>>>>>>> Robin's arm still be above the Lark's?
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Thanks all!
>>>>>>> >> Kat K in Halifax
>>>>>>> >>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers
>>>>>>> >>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
>>>>>>> >>> Hi Kat,
>>>>>>> >>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show
in your photo.
>>>>>>> When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is
what I call a
>>>>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together
rather than
>>>>>>> further apart.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the
cover of Zesty
>>>>>>> Contras and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600
dancers at a
>>>>>>> contra dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was
using it!
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and
didn't feel that
>>>>>>> it really worked. With my right arm underneath there
didn't seem to be
>>>>>>> enough connection to have a really good swing unless Karen
gripped my arm.
>>>>>>> I felt that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on
top Karen felt
>>>>>>> that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't
gripping - it was
>>>>>>> just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Re all the references to sore
arms/hands/wrists/etc. The
>>>>>>> biggest problem is that people are told to "give
weight". I don't want your
>>>>>>> weight! People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If
people control
>>>>>>> their own weight then all the connection has to do is counter
centrifugal
>>>>>>> force and that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the
dancers to Buzz on
>>>>>>> the spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep
their own balance
>>>>>>> and weight.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders
(too much
>>>>>>> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is
taught badly,
>>>>>>> and then lots of Aerials:
>>>>>>> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I
>>>>>>> shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!).
Anyway, I can't afford
>>>>>>> to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can
Swing at high
>>>>>>> speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or
sideways I just slow
>>>>>>> the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to
take their own
>>>>>>> weight or fall over.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their
own weight you
>>>>>>> will find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet
interleaved. They
>>>>>>> seem to do it without any problem. It is just a different
feel and takes
>>>>>>> some getting used to.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too
close in a
>>>>>>> Ceilidh Swing
(http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh
>>>>>>> ) - you could always try the Forearm Swing instead (
>>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same
>>>>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Happy dancing,
>>>>>>> >>> John
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England
john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625
>>>>>>> 362 & 07802 940 574
>>>>>>> >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in
Kent
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> >>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers
>>>>>>> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
>>>>>>> >>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the
proximity of bodies
>>>>>>> and lack of physical air space between them. The huge
difference between a
>>>>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a
swing dance with
>>>>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to
swing with EVERY
>>>>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you
asked to dance.
>>>>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy
than saying
>>>>>>> yes to one person.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous
dancer in our
>>>>>>> group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose
their contra
>>>>>>> dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him.
The most
>>>>>>> important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of
conduct which
>>>>>>> we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became
clear he would
>>>>>>> not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and
others, but it’s
>>>>>>> always been women who have said this to me over the years),
when they come
>>>>>>> to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the
line, it is
>>>>>>> asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with
whoever comes
>>>>>>> at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold
might make
>>>>>>> contra feel safer, especially for new dancers.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both
feel about the
>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Becky
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner
<
>>>>>>> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation
on why a
>>>>>>> ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other
holds?
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> >>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
>>>>>>> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
>>>>>>> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation
on why a
>>>>>>> ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other
holds?
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Is it a matter of the historical social
attachment we have in
>>>>>>> our minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance
in our culture?
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh
holds to be closer,
>>>>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its
own intimacy to
>>>>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more
space -
>>>>>>> though I wouldn't say the default)
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Is it something else?
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give
insight to what a
>>>>>>> solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted
mindset might entail?
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> In dance,
>>>>>>> >>> Julian Blechner
>>>>>>> >>> He/him
>>>>>>> >>> Western Mass
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> >> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> > ____
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
27 Mar
27 Mar
1:14 p.m.
There's actually another factor of two if you both have your hand on the
other person's back or shoulder. To get the needed centripetal force, you
both are contributing.
You might say, "you need to lift me and I need to lift you" but that's not
quite right, because my shoulder is lifting your hand and your shoulder is
lifting mine.
To be more explicit let's use your 200lbf example which should actually be
100lbf. My hand can provide 50lbf to your shoulder and my shoulder can
provide 50lbf to your hand. I didn't feel the force my shoulder is
providing to your hand because it's so close to my core.
This is also how we can be uneven in strength and still rotate in place. If
I'm weaker and my hand is only providing 25lbf to your back, my back can
provide 75lbf to your hand, but that feels easy.
I'm going to address other forces that are in pay in a separate message.
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 12:56 Chris Lahey <clahey(a)clahey.net> wrote:
I think you're trying to calculate two 150lb
dancers, but you've
calculated for a 300lb mass, but you shouldn't do that doubling. I'm
exerting enough force to provide your centripetal force and vice versa.
Those forces oppose one another, but they don't add up. That is a factor of
two error.
I have to think more about one foot radius and 45 rpm and read upthread
more.
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 12:25 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I was curious about John's "The
shoulder-blade connection is purely to
counteract centrifugal force. That is not normally a lot of force, so it
shouldn’t make you tired." above. While ideally you could measure this, I
don't think swinging with a scale between your hand and partner's back and
your hand would be comfortable, and it would be hard to read. Let's try a
bit of physics.
If you like to swing quickly you might go 4.5x around in twelve beats,
which is 45rpm at a tempo of 120bpm. Let's guess the people each weigh
150lb and approximate them as point masses two feet apart. Doing some math:
r = 1ft
m = 300lb
ω = 45rpm = 0.75 hz
v = ω2πr
= 0.75 hz * 2π * 1ft
= 4.7 ft/s
F = mv^2/r
= 300lbm * (4.7 ft/s)^2 / 1ft
= 300lbm * 23ft / s^2
= 6662lbm * ft / s^2
1lbf = 32.17 lbm * ft / s^2
1lbm = 0.0311 lbf * s^2 / ft
F = 6662 lbm * ft / s^2
= 6662 * 0.0311 lbf
= 207lbf
This says you need ~216lb of force to hold the dancers together! If
you're rotating more slowly, perhaps 2.5x in twelve beats, it's still a
significant 64lb.
Jeff
PS: If you want something you can play with, this is (rpm/3 * 3.14)**2 *
weight * 1/32.2
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:08 PM Jeff Kaufman <jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Here's a 1989 recording the Portland OR dance
did in a recording studio:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k . I see almost all "outer
arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, lady's left hand
behind gent's shoulder" hold (hereafter 'ballroom' though as
illustrated
above that's a fraught term). At 0:58 and then again at 1:28, 1:58, 3:02
etc there's a couple with a symmetrical hold where they each have their
right hand around the other's waist, with their left hands joined low in
the center. I didn't watch the whole video, so it's possible there were
other couples that did other holds at some point?
Here's 1987 in Mendocino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q
. I only see ballroom holds.
Here's 1986 in Cambridge MA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q
. Outdoor demo performance. Almost all ballroom holds, but at 4:04 the
couple all the way on the right has outer hands in a forearm hold (which
they continue doing in later iterations of the dance).
Here's 1986 in Francestown NH:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE At 0:30 I see two ballroom
holds and two where the outer arms are holding a bit above the elbows. At
1:06 I see two ballroom holds, one of the hold from 0:30, and one of the
symmetrical holds I described in the Portland OR video, though note that
this is many of the same couples. Jumping ahead to 8:38 I see three
ballroom holds and where the outer hands hold each other's forearms.
Separately, I really like how enthusiastic the balances are: you can feel
the room shake through to the camera!
Here's one labeled 1986 Chico Contra:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg Almost all ballroom holds,
except for one couple where the lady's left hand is on the back of the
gent's right arm instead of behind his shoulder (doesn't look comfortable
to me!)
Here's 1976 in Bloomington: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w
. Looks like a performance. At 0:10 I see three couples where the outer
hands are joined as in ballroom, the gent's right hand is around the lady's
waist, and the lady's left hand is again on the back of the gent's right
arm. Then there's one couple doing the symmetrical swing with left hands
joined low between their bodies. Same again at 0:44, 1:11, etc.
Here's 1967 somewhere in New England:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM . I see ballroom at 0:35,
0:37, 3:15, 3:16, 5:08, 5:10. Then at 1:05 (and then again in the
background at 5:11, and then again at 5:23 and 5:33) I see a forearm hold
with arms that are straighter than I'm used to. At 2:08 I see a hold where
the gents hands are both around the lady's waist and the lady's hands are
both over the tops of the gent's shoulders.
Here's 1981 in Belmont MA, but it's an hour and I'm going to bed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo
Jeff
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 4:33 PM Stein, Robert <steinr(a)msu.edu> wrote:
> The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same variety
> of swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel holds.
> Bob
>
> > On Mar 26, 2024, at 16:13, Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >
> > Looking through old media to figure out what swing positions were
> common sounds like fun! I think video might be more promising? Here's a
> few annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and each
> bullet describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame at the
> timestamp. I only counted each couple once:
> >
> > Cambridge MA, 1990: https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC
> > * 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms, gent's right hand behind
> lady's back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm
> > * 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's
> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
> > * 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's left hand on gent's
> shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back
> > * 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out, lady's left hand
> behind gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back
> > * 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on backs with lady above
> gent
> > * 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's inner hand on
> lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder
> > * 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out, gent's inner hand on
> lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm
> > * 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's shoulders, gent's left hand
> behind lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back
> > * 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's
> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
> > * 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's
> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder
> >
> > The "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's
back,
> lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I think of as the
> standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of
> variation.
> >
> > I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975 clip, but there were too
> many cuts. The 1964 video would be another one to try?
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > Responding to various points.
> > And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always regional
> differences (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really
> about?)
> > I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a friendly
> tone and desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's intended.
> >
> > I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking
> approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and
> Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings.
> > The short version: despite being contemporaries and the books
> published a year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different
> swing holds, where:
> > - a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the small of the back
> (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the cover
> which he points out in the description is what to follow)
> > - a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom palm-up supporting
> the lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper arm
> (Jennings, with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a lady's hands
> > - a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper arm
> (Jennings) or "behind the upper arm" (Sanella)
> >
> > So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing position,
> and holds described by both did include women holding men in ways that were
> supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that their hand is
> "resting on top" as with other couples' dances.
> > Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back around to
> that after I touch on some specific points:
> >
> > RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against the
> Leftie’s supporting right hand."
> > Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back" may be describing
> "the feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely experienced
> people who lean back.
> >
> > RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing together
> because you are limited to the length of the shorter arm."
> > I don't think this is accurate.
> > This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade isn't
> small, and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size
> differences. There's always exceptions, sure.
> > Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing shoulderblades.
> Then again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's less
> support that's needed to be given.
> >
> > RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re
> going to be on top of me."
> > I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in the "middle"
> of the back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in the middle
> is partially off the shoulderblade.
> > I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the hand often
> can naturally curve around the shoulderblade.
> >
> > RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms
> are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in
> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward."
> > I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think everyone on this
> list here has been dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't a
thing
> I've really experienced or heard discussed.
> > So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but people just
> ... do it?
> > As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing from a bit
> of an under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm comes
> in more open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their right
> arm before I try and wrap my right arm around.
> > It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a good connection
> on a star promenade.
> >
> > Further to this point, if I were using the traditional "woman left
> arm rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged,
> anyway.
> > Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra bit of
> work in the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, and
> timing their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed.
> >
> > This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work as
> wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women.
> > Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
> > Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role.
> > Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
> > Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role.
> > Some men dance with men, some women with women.
> > Etc.
> >
> > So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a swing work
> for both people" as a universal and generic skill.
> > Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more automatic than it
> may seem!
> >
> > Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic aspects of
> contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to
> adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium
> that works for both people.
> > If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my shoulderblade,
> that's fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing speed.
> > I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer can
> adjust their style to meet another dancer's differences in size, height,
> ability, tiredness, injury, age, etc.
> >
> > In dance,
> > Julian Blechner
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein <nschlein(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Julian,
> > Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other
> persons back, I agree with Joe.
> >
> > The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things.
> >
> > First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the
> length of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long
> arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on
> top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK
> with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space.
> (Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants
> their hand on my back.)
> >
> > Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are
> coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in
> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a
> changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening
> of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby
> pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts
> the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a
> non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and
> potentially harmful.
> >
> > Neal Schlein
> > Librarian, MSLIS
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > Hi Joe,
> >
> > You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I
> teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a
> complaint about it.
> >
> > That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager
> robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place."
> >
> > That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting
> Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping,
> it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just
> workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety
> of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.)
> >
> > The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the
> backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when
> swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on
> shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is
> fairly petite.
> >
> > I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I
> have an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient
> support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar.
> >
> > That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing
> hold works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah?
> But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what
> you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand
> correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.)
> >
> > In dance,
> > Julian Blechner
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <
> contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the lark's,
> but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years
> now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on
> the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I
> know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie
> workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide
> equal support in the swing.
> >
> > While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are
> not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this
> without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent
> backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the
> right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much
> eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by
> pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially
> refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow,
> so it kills any enjoyment in that swing.
> >
> > Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major
> support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff
> described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top
> are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their
> lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold
> (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder.
> >
> > --jh--
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner <
> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > JJ,
> >
> > I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry
> of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing.
> >
> > Joe,
> >
> > I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having
> elbows occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or
> picture). That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall
> topic, that everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums
> is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold
> handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned
> callers - can anticipate every need or difference.
> >
> > In dance,
> > Julian Blechner
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcgj95(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the
> switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to"
end on
> (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left
> arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is
the
> "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously
tell
> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle
memory just takes over
> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅.
> >
> > I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles
> without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the
> traditional ballroom figure.
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's
> role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm."
> >
> > When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially
> doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I
> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I
> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the
> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were
> dancing the lady's role in the standard way?
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> > I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way
> that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I
> have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs
> (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if
> one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if
> you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than
> ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
> >
> > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role
> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment),
> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which
is
> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around
> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm,
> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around
> each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never
> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm
> not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a
> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first
> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we
> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an
> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
> change...
> >
> > In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when
> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the
> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and
> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't
> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though
> it was pretty great in other ways.
> >
> > The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position
> where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same
> place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually
> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible,
> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same
> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside
> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow,
> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain
> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my
> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the
> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop
> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt
> the lark.
> >
> > One assist that does wor