John,
<Perhaps, “the roles were originally (completely and utterly) based on
gender”!
Ya think? :)
I had what I assume is a similar response when I read that, John.
Aside to John: In this entire, ongoing discussion, it seems to me that
there is an active conspiracy of pretense (along the lines of 'the
emperor's new clothes') that the elephant sitting squarely in the middle of
the room is actually a blueberry muffin.
Open and honest questions:
Am I the only living person who has a preference for dancing with the
opposite cisgender (realizing that any particular, such opposite,
cisgendered individual may, in fact, have a different preference)?
If the above is a reasonable question, what is wrong with saying "If you
have a preference to dance primarily with women, I recommend dancing the
left role. If you have a preference to dance with men, I'd recommend
dancing the right-side role; if you have no preference, it doesn't matter"?
What is the surveyed percentage of dancers in your community who have such
a preference vs those who don't?
In the discussion about some men being uncomfortable doing ballroom dance hold swing with other men, the modified ballroom hold (hand above elbow of partner instead of on robin’s shoulder) was mentioned.
In this discussion, much has been said about men who don’t want to do ballroom hold with other men, but what nobody has mentioned yet is the scads of women (both straight and queer) who have long been uncomfortable dancing ballroom swing with men (or often just with particular men). I am intrigued by this modified ballroom swing idea because it might solve many problems at once.
I have two simultaneous (and conflicting) emotional responses to men uncomfortable swinging with other men:
The ungenerous one is: "As a lesbian I had to get over my discomfort swinging with you in order to participate in the joy of contra. If I can do it, you can do it." But more importantly (and more generously): We’d like everyone to be as comfortable at contra dances as is reasonably feasible. To that end, I am very interested in this idea of the modified ballroom hold. It might solve MANY different problems. Here are a few that come to mind:
1. The enforced intimacy problem: this is not just a problem with straight men being uncomfortable swinging with other men. There is a lot of forced intimacy in the ballroom hold. Maybe that intimacy is not the best thing to force on anyone?. Modified ballroom swing would help with the problem of not wanting enforced closeness/intimacy with others for all kinds of reasons: keeping distance from the lecherous dancer who uses the ballroom hold as an excuse for unwanted intimacy; but also simply to provide a bit of space for folks who simply aren’t comfortable being that close to ANYBODY. I recently struck up a conversation with a new dancer who was leaving early (because we need to know why we’re losing potential dancers) and she said “It just feels too intimate.” She didn’t say too intimate swinging with men or with women. Just “too intimate” and I got the definite feeling that it was the enforced close hold (with everyone) that was difficult for her. I wonder if we would have lost her if we used the modified ballroom swing (hand above elbow instead of on shoulder).
2. There are other difficulties with the ballroom hold: sometimes there is simply not enough room: short arms or large girth can make it difficult to reach the back of the shoulder of the other partner at times, and this leaves the Lark in the uncomfortable/dangerous position of “where do I put my hand now?” While trying to avoid the “accidental side boob graze” issue.
3. Speaking of which, is nobody else out there having trouble with this “side boob graze” problem with the ballroom hold? I’m a lesbian who dances the Lark role because of knee and hip issues. At least once/evening when moving into or out of the ballroom hold I accidentally graze the side of my partner’s breast. If I were straight I wouldn’t worry about it. But as a lesbian my mind always leaps to “what if she thinks I did that on purpose?” Do straight men not also have this problem?? Why is nobody talking about this?? If the robin is female-presenting, the back of the robin’s shoulder is dangerously close to the side of her breast. Which means (a) it’s easy for a sleaze to cop a feel and pass it off as an accident, and (b) it’s easy for a lesbian or straight man to truly accidentally graze and then worry that they’ll be perceived as a sleaze. The elbow hold would solve both of these problems.
4. The robin clamping down their arm problem: Larks, have you ever danced with a robin who clamps down their arm on your wrist during the swing? Again, elbow hold would solve this.
5. The problem of robins dancing backwards when swinging: I have never danced the modified ballroom hold, but I’d like to know from folks who do: does it solve the problem of many robins feeling like they need to dance backwards when swinging? On the occasions when I do dance robin (usually because I’m pairing with a newbie who is dancing lark) I often find myself skittering backwards in the swing, instead of both of us walking/dancing forward. I’m not experienced enough as a robin to fully understand this phenomenon, but I think it has to do with the closeness and rigidity of some Larks’ hold in the ballroom swing. Question for folks who have used the elbow hold: does this hold solve this problem and allow the robin to dance forward instead of backward in the swing?
I am particularly interested in this issue because I am about to move from Toronto (where the ballroom hold is firmly established) to an island off the coast of Vancouver (Bowen Island) where, if I want to continue to dance, I will have to start my own contra dance. This conversation has made me wonder whether I should start that group with the modified ballroom hold to solve many of these problems. I’d love to hear from others who have used this swing about the pros and cons (if any) and any other advice you’d have for someone starting a dance using this swing hold.
Thanks!!
Becky Liddle
(Note: my email is changing from beckyliddle(a)bell.net <mailto:beckyliddle@bell.net> to becky.liddle(a)icloud.com <mailto:becky.liddle@icloud.com> )
Sorry everyone - I am clearly not the global authority on this hold,
just yet!! :D
I just tested this out at home with my (life) partner and realized
something unexpected-
In the case of me and my partner dancing, it was actually better for
both of us if his arm went below mine even though he is taller- I guess
because he is taller, his upper arm is also longer, so somehow it still
made sense for my arm to go on top. (If anyone thinks they can better
explain the physics/physiology of this, be my guest!)
Anyhow we got a photo - he is camera-shy and made me crop out his face,
but I think you can view it here - let me know if any issues.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
Let's call this hold a "work in progress" from us at Halifax Contra
Dances- seems we are still sorting out some details!! :)
Kat K
> Katherine Kitching <mailto:kat@outdooractive.ca>
> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 6:09 PM
> whoops whoops!! sorry, correction on that.
>
> the photo on Jeff's page shows the arms that are closest to the
> viewer, in the photo, in a similar position to what my group has been
> using.
>
> But I just noticed the dancer's other arms are not hand-in-hand, like
> my group does it.
> Darn :)
>
> We would still have Lark's Left hand in Raven's Right hand.
>
> KK
>
>
Hey there, hive mind,
When you're calling larks and robins, during the lesson, how do you
a. explain the roles to the new folks, and
b. put the beginners into roles for the duration of the lesson?
I've seen "try swinging in both roles and see which feels better", I've
seen "unless you have a preference, whoever is standing on the right of
your partnership is the robin for now", I've seen "pick whichever bird you
like better", I've seen "the robin's role is a little easier so do that if
you feel less confident"...
I'm curious what folks here do and in what kind of distribution, and how
you find it works for you in practice.
(Please please please let's not relitigate gender-free contra or the bird
terms in this thread. If you really must, please make a separate thread.)
Swingingly,
Maia
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
John Sweeney wrote, in response:
"“Some dances have been around since George Washington's time”! Oh! So, you
only do the
recent stuff :-)"
John, have you got some good chestnuts with "hides and hairbones" roles?
:)
Cheers,
Ken Panton
Hi all,
My barn dance series has been doing well with an occasional contra dance
added in, and progressions are working. I feel "safer" including contra
style progressions as 4-face-4 dances, though, especially when I have a
wide age range of dancers. I know "trail buddies" can help the kids point
in the right direction each time.
Coconut Cream Pie ( https://contradb.com/dances/1548 ) is getting a lot of
play lately, but I'd like to have a few more of that style in my deck. It
would be nice to have a 4-face-4 both before and after the break, without
it being literally the same dance.
Any simple favorites? Bonus points if they are a california twirl
progression to feel "familiar".
Thanks everyone!
Allison
--
Allison Jonjak
allisonjonjak(a)gmail.com
allisonjonjak.com
After several discussions with new callers about a lack of dance walk
through videos, I've started recording some of mine (when I can
remember!). This past weekend (Cabin Fever, Knoxville TN), I had the
wonderful help of Jim Crawford to add footage from the floor and to mix
in the house audio. I'm sharing that here for whatever benefit it
brings folks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQMBy8Q5ft4
Some interesting things happened that changed how I called this dance:
- The lines were crowded, so I backed the gents up to suggest that they
cross the gent in the next set by the right (overlapping orbits).
- There was some confusion about shadows, but it really doesn't matter
who that is, so I ignored/squashed questions about direction and just
let the dancers muddle into it.
- I'm started at B2 in order to put the pass through progression at the
end of the dance (making the dance improper.) I do this sometimes for
reasons that I don't always recall.
I hope these videos prove to be useful.
Timothy
> On Jan 25, 2024, at 12:00 AM, contracallers-request(a)lists.sharedweight.net wrote:
>
>>> Late in a regular evening dance a caller recently threw in a contra
>> with larks and robins progressing in opposite directions or at
>> different rates. Although it was announced as a mixer, it was
>> sufficiently unexpected that chaos and discomfort ensued. I'd have
>> been happier with that in a workshop setting. "Dance with who's
>> coming at you."
>>
>> David, I'd love to have this dance for uh, scientific purposes and
>> certainly not to sow chaos 👀
>>
>>
>> --
>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>> 917.279.8194
Here is one: Note: I can’t guarantee I have everything right here. I think I remember prepping to call it and then chickening out! :-)
ð BECKET MIXER
No Use Crying Over Spilled Milk
by Chris Weiler
Teaching:
Note: warn Robins that they’ll feel stuck at ends when not stuck. If there’s nobody on your side to dance with, then dance with the person across from you and face back in LL/RR as usual. Larks triple progress, but robins progress forward 2 and back one so it can feel like you’re stuck when you’re not. Don’t fix it or you will get stuck!
A1 BECKET: on side of set w/partner: Partner balance & swing
A2 (6) Circle left 3 places & pass thru along the set
(8) New neighbor swing
B1 (8) long lines forward and back
(8) third neighbor (beside you along side of set, who you did NOT just swing) allemande left 1 ½
(there’s an awkward hand-hold switch here: robins, you can make it smoother if you take the lark’s left hand you’re holding in your right hand, and put it into your left hand for the allemande left 1 ½ )
B2 (8) Robins chain (to current partner— then say goodbye)
(8) Star left (all the way around) to a new partner
Calling Notes:
Note: If you’re out at the ends and there’s nobody on your side to dance with, then do the move (whether partner or neighbour) with the person across from you and face back in LL/RR as usual.
warn Robins that they’ll feel stuck at ends when not stuck. Larks triple progress, but robins progress forward 2 and back one so it can feel like you’re stuck when you’re not. Don’t try to fix it or you will get stuck!
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7At3Dhq-G0
Hello hivemind,
I’m thinking again about an ECD/contra Medley — presumably where you switch
from one style to the other every time you change dances, though I am of
course open to other ideas. Does anyone have thoughts here? Have you seen
the unsuccessfully? Tips on what to avoid or common pitfalls?
Thanks for your insights!
Maia
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
Hi Folks,
I'm teaching a contra dance tonight for a special event. I wanted to double check my sources and came up short on one dance:
Ellen's Green Jig.
According to my memory, I tweaked this dance years ago to be proper/improper. However, the original I can no longer find. Furthermore, my notes say it was originally by Roy Dommett, the famed rocket scientist morris dancer. Does that make any sense?
Does anyone know this dance or who devised it?
Thanks!
Greg
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