"At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady.  I'm not sure when that became the norm."

When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I encountered.  I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the standard ballroom hold.  By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were dancing the lady's role in the standard way?

Jeff

On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way that indicated it was too intimate for them.  This is especially true if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs (I'm pretty tall).  It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side.  But, all that aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm, bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around each other's forearms between your bodies.  At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady.  I'm not sure when that became the norm.  I would occasionally do it with a particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with.  We practiced it first and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our neighbors.  We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an item.  Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior change...

In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when they're happy to swing with me.  But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though it was pretty great in other ways.

The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same place where the lark's hand is on theirs.  I know some people actually teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing.  It's terrible, because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same space, which, well, physics.  If I'm the lark and their arm is outside mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the traditional ballroom hold.  I hope we can convince everyone to stop teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt the lark.

One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to provide some support on the shoulder blade.  In my case, at least, if they are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more connection.  It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only pull forward.

--jh--


On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about this email thread and observations.

Short and simple:
A "barrel hold" swing:
- Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
- One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer.

In dance,
-Julian Blechner

On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if I were just learning this swing. 
Becky

On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance!  Though what I think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful.

The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message:  you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting with (visual at https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0 )
-- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that are holding just above the elbow.

But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his left hand my right hand ,  is supposed to be the same as the hold you use in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right hand.)
Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended: 
https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198
Starts at 3:18.
Thoughts?

Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -

Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold, that in this video referenced by Allan - 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8   or in the photo I shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's arm?

Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of the two dancing partners?
(for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm still be above the Lark's? 

Thanks all!
Kat K in Halifax
Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
Hi Kat,
Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than further apart.

I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it!

We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.

Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and that it not a lot inless you spin really fast.

I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and weight.

I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and then lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take their own weight or fall over.

Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist.

The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some getting used to.

Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you could always try the Forearm Swing instead (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same principle, but further apart so no bodily contact.

Happy dancing,
John

John Sweeney, Dancer, England john@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent


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Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM
For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance. That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying yes to one person.

As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra feel safer, especially for new dancers.

I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the difference.

Becky


On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner <juliancallsdances@gmail.com> wrote:

I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?

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Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? 

Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?

Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - though I wouldn't say the default)

Is it something else?

Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?

In dance,
Julian Blechner
He/him
Western Mass



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