oh! wonderful!!
Here is the modified-hold swing I've
been talking about, on Jeff K's page - third photo down!!
labelled under the photo as
arm-hold ballroom swing
https://www.jefftk.com/p/contra-avoiding-sore-arms
Thanks Jeff!!
Now I'm going to comment to two things again - Julian's comment and
Jeff's comment (both included below).
Julian's question: "why [does] a ballroom hold feels more "intimate"
than other holds?"
For me personally, what I find more "intimate" about the ballroom hold
(and a lot of the other holds), is that it puts me very close to the
other person - closer than in any other figure - and also more "locked
in" - since both hands of both people are involved in maintaining the
hold.
And what I noticed in my own body, when in recent dances I've been doing
the elbow-hold ballroom position with most neighbours and a new man
suddenly grabs my waist and pulls me into conventional ballroom hold -
is that I don't really like his hand there on my back. I feel a bit
trapped - like if I wanted to back away a little, I can't.
(I acknowledge I am speaking in gendered terms here, but I feel it is
relevant because for me, this feeling of being excessively close to
someone only seems to come up when I'm dancing with some men. I've never
to my recollection had a woman pull me "too close for comfort").
I'll be curious to hear how others answer this question.
Regarding hand placement- I definitely agree with Jeff's page about the
importance of symmetry - prior to our elbow-hold swing, we always taught
the ballroom swing where both parties put their hands on the other
person's shoulder blade- with the shorter person's arm going under the
taller person's arm. I like the symmetry of it and fully agree that
both parties should be responsible for supporting the other.
And Jeff wrote:
"In general, I would be excited to see common positioning move ... to
where both people are using both of their arms to
hold the couple together, sharing the weight more evenly"
And that's one reason I love this elbow-hold (or "arm-hold" as Jeff
calls it) - I've found this hold gives me an even better connection to
my dancing patner than the shoulder-blade hold.
It doesn't feel easy to cup one's hand in an effective way around
someone else's back - and I agree it asks a lot of the wrist.
I find it much easier to cup my hand around the back of someone's elbow
- it is perfectly hand-sized :) .
Kat K
-----
Julian wrote:
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold
feels more "intimate" than other holds?
Is
it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our minds
with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?
Is
it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed
arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me,
though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - though
I wouldn't say the default)
Is it something else?
Maybe
if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to an
alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?
In dance,
Julian Blechner
He/him
Western Mass
Wednesday,
March 13, 2024 5:46 PM
"I firmly believe that the best place for the lady's left
hand is resting on the man's upper arm in a relaxed manner."
The biggest downside of this
approach is that in a conventional ballroom hold it puts all the effort
of holding the couple together on the right wrist of the Lark/Gent. I
have relatively weak wrists, and dancing as the Lark with people who
rest their left hand on the Lark's upper arm is somewhere between tiring
and painful.
In general,
I would be excited to see common positioning move in the opposite
direction, to where both people are using both of their arms to hold the
couple together, sharing the weight more evenly:
Jeff
Wednesday,
March 13, 2024 11:16 AM
In the
discussion about some men being uncomfortable doing ballroom dance hold
swing with other men, the modified ballroom hold (hand above elbow of
partner instead of on robin’s shoulder) was mentioned.
In
this discussion, much has been said about men who don’t want to do
ballroom hold with other men, but what nobody has mentioned yet is the
scads of women (both straight and queer) who have long been
uncomfortable dancing ballroom swing with men (or often just with
particular men). I am intrigued by this modified ballroom swing idea
because it might solve many problems at once.
I
have two simultaneous (and conflicting) emotional responses to men
uncomfortable swinging with other men:
The ungenerous one is:
"As a lesbian I had to get over my discomfort swinging with you in order
to participate in the joy of contra. If I can do it, you can do it."
But more importantly (and more generously): We’d like everyone to be
as comfortable at contra dances as is reasonably feasible. To that
end, I am very interested in this idea of the modified ballroom hold. It
might solve MANY different problems. Here are a few that come to mind:
1.
The enforced intimacy problem: this is not just a problem with straight
men being uncomfortable swinging with other men. There is a lot of
forced intimacy in the ballroom hold. Maybe that intimacy is not the
best thing to force on anyone?. Modified ballroom swing would
help with the problem of not wanting enforced closeness/intimacy with
others for all kinds of reasons: keeping distance from the lecherous
dancer who uses the ballroom hold as an excuse for unwanted intimacy;
but also simply to provide a bit of space for folks who simply aren’t
comfortable being that close to ANYBODY. I recently struck up a
conversation with a new dancer who was leaving early (because we need to
know why we’re losing potential dancers) and she said “It just feels
too intimate.” She didn’t say too intimate swinging with men or with
women. Just “too intimate” and I got the definite feeling that it was
the enforced close hold (with everyone) that was difficult for
her. I wonder if we would have lost her if we used the modified ballroom
swing (hand above elbow instead of on shoulder).
2.
There are other difficulties with the ballroom hold: sometimes there is
simply not enough room: short arms or large girth can make it difficult
to reach the back of the shoulder of the other partner at times, and
this leaves the Lark in the uncomfortable/dangerous position of “where
do I put my hand now?” While trying to avoid the “accidental side boob
graze” issue.
3. Speaking of which, is nobody
else out there having trouble with this “side boob graze” problem with
the ballroom hold? I’m a lesbian who dances the Lark role because of
knee and hip issues. At least once/evening when moving into or out of
the ballroom hold I accidentally graze the side of my partner’s breast.
If I were straight I wouldn’t worry about it. But as a lesbian my mind
always leaps to “what if she thinks I did that on purpose?” Do
straight men not also have this problem?? Why is nobody talking about
this?? If the robin is female-presenting, the back of the robin’s
shoulder is dangerously close to the side of her breast. Which means (a)
it’s easy for a sleaze to cop a feel and pass it off as an accident,
and (b) it’s easy for a lesbian or straight man to truly accidentally
graze and then worry that they’ll be perceived as a sleaze. The
elbow hold would solve both of these problems.
4.
The robin clamping down their arm problem: Larks, have you ever danced
with a robin who clamps down their arm on your wrist during the swing?
Again, elbow hold would solve this.
5. The
problem of robins dancing backwards when swinging: I have never danced
the modified ballroom hold, but I’d like to know from folks who do: does
it solve the problem of many robins feeling like they need to dance
backwards when swinging? On the occasions when I do dance robin (usually
because I’m pairing with a newbie who is dancing lark) I often find
myself skittering backwards in the swing, instead of both of us
walking/dancing forward. I’m not experienced enough as a robin to fully
understand this phenomenon, but I think it has to do with the closeness
and rigidity of some Larks’ hold in the ballroom swing. Question for
folks who have used the elbow hold: does this hold solve this problem
and allow the robin to dance forward instead of backward in the swing?
I
am particularly interested in this issue because I am about to move
from Toronto (where the ballroom hold is firmly established) to an
island off the coast of Vancouver (Bowen Island) where, if I want to
continue to dance, I will have to start my own contra dance. This
conversation has made me wonder whether I should start that group with
the modified ballroom hold to solve many of these problems. I’d love
to hear from others who have used this swing about the pros and cons (if
any) and any other advice you’d have for someone starting a dance using
this swing hold.
Thanks!!
Becky
Liddle
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