I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? 

Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?

Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - though I wouldn't say the default)

Is it something else?

Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?

In dance,
Julian Blechner
He/him
Western Mass

On Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 11:20 AM Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hello!
I was the one who suggested the modified ballroom swing, and I'm going to respond here to both some of Becky and Jerome's and John's questions/ thoughts.

Women's discomfort in conventional ballroom hold
I did actually mention in my initial email that as a cisgender woman, I have really appreciated the additional space that the modified ballroom hold creates between me and the men I dance with. 
Actually as a not particularly touchy-feely human being, I appreciate the additional space it creates between me and anyone I dance with!
But I have especially appreciated the space between me and any male partner.

Interestingly, I didn't think about it too much in the past.  I was fairly comfortable swinging with anyone, and our group has a good vibe so there isn't much creepiness.  I felt fine with the conventional ballroom swing.
But -- now that we have implemented the modified ballroom hold as the standard with all neighbours and also as the standard with a partner if you don't discuss otherwise, it's been *very* interesting....
I've sometimes swung with a male partner who decides to use conventional ballroom without discussing it --and  I suddenly feel VERY claustrophobic about it! 
I will usually say to them when I get a chance - "let's remember to use the elbow-hold now!" - and as soon as they do, I  instantly breath a sigh of relief.  It just feels way more comfortable to me.  Without exception.

-- (and to give these fellows who launch right into conventional ballroom hold the benefit of the doubt- they tend to be our longest-term dancers and it I think in a lot of cases they just have a hard time re-programming - we have only been doing the modified ballroom for about 6 months, and not everyone comes to every dance. I'm giving them time to get used to the new normal.   That said, I am pretty sure there are few men who think, "oh, she is a caller, she is an experienced dancer, she will be happy to swing closely with me!" .  I have this idea because a few of them seem to roll their eyes a bit when I remind them that I prefer to dance with the new modified hold :D  Incidentally this has never happened with a female partner....)...

Inadvertent "boob touching"
This is not something I have ever heard of before in the swing, but someone did bring it up a few dances ago when we tried to use a modified, more role-symmetrical hold for the courtesy turn, with both hands crossed in front.  One of our longtime and larger-busted female dancers told me that this was *not* going to work, due to all the inadvertent boob touching that happened to her when her partners were getting into position.  So we canned that idea! :)  And it made me more aware of this issue as something to watch out for.
Thanks for drawing attention to it as a potential aspect of the swing.


Robins arm-clamping and robins feeling like they have to skitter backwards
I haven't consciously encountered either of these issues but look forward to hearing more.

(Jerome's point) - Signalling which flavour of swing to use?
So in our community, we have just made it clear that this modified ballroom hold is now the new standard.
So, that means for every neighbour you meet, this is how you swing with them.
And with your partner, this is what is expected --unless the two of you have a consensual conversation and decide on something else.

(and sometimes for fun we do show partway through the dance, some other swing holds that partners may like to experiment with, if they are comfortable with each other. John S's page has been very helpful in this regard!! Thank you John :) )

Of course, if two neighbours meet each other in the line and they know each other well (e.g. maybe they are spouses!), they may spontaneously do something else becauuse they know each other well enough to feel that out on the spot.  But we make it  very clear that you should not assume that your neighbour or partner wants to do something other than the standard hold, unless you have an explicit discussion.  Since that's not really feasible with neighbours, it means that neighbours in almost all cases are going to swing with the modified ballroom and that is that :)

Regarding John's request to get a visual of this hold
- i'll be curious if anyone else on this list is using this new hold, or if it is just us in Halifax.

I can't even remember now how we came up with the idea.  It may have been through our own experimenting.  A bunch of us have been chatting after some dances about how we can make our figures as gender-neutral/symmetrical as possible, and we have been trying out all sorts of different swing holds to see what might work best for us.  Sometimes we start with one of John's examples and then see how it might be modified if it feels too close.    As I suggested above, we've also been trying to figure out more symmetrical-hold courtesy-turn alternatives (for robins and larks chains) but so far haven't found a satisfactory one.
(feel free to start a new thread if you have any ideas!).

John - if nobody else has a photo or video of the hold we're using in Halifax, I will try to remember to get one for you at our April dance!
writing myself a note, now...

best,
Kat K
Halifax NS Canada




John Sweeney <john@modernjive.com>

              Please could someone post a picture or video of the modified ballroom hold that is being discussed?  Or send it to me and I will add it to my Web site with a link so that people can see it.

               Thanks.

             Happy dancing,

                   John                      

                                   

John Sweeney, Dancer, England   john@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574

http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent      


Wednesday, March 13, 2024 11:36 AM
One challenge is implementation: if the whole group learned the same swing position, symmetrical or asymmetrical, from scratch, your proposal would not be a problem unless/until your dancers visited other dances — and even then. perhaps not a big issue.

In a community with mixed crowds (both experienced and newcomers), dancers would need to signal which flavor of swing they wanted. And what about folks with two different preferences meeting for a neighbor swing?

So developing those signals, and defaults, would be my focus. As for the swing itself, I believe John Sweeny or one of the other UK members of the list has a video catalog of various swings on a website. Good teaching tips too.

Jerome 




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Wednesday, March 13, 2024 11:16 AM
In the discussion about some men being uncomfortable doing ballroom dance hold swing with other men, the modified ballroom hold (hand above elbow of partner instead of on robin’s shoulder) was mentioned. 

In this discussion, much has been said about men who don’t want to do ballroom hold with other men, but what nobody has mentioned yet is the scads of women (both straight and queer) who have long been uncomfortable dancing ballroom swing with men (or often just with particular men). I am intrigued by this modified ballroom swing idea because it might solve many problems at once. 

I have two simultaneous (and conflicting) emotional responses to men uncomfortable swinging with other men:
The ungenerous one is: "As a lesbian I had to get over my discomfort swinging with you in order to participate in the joy of contra. If I can do it, you can do it." But more importantly (and more generously): We’d like everyone to be as comfortable at contra dances as is reasonably feasible. To that end, I am very interested in this idea of the modified ballroom hold. It might solve MANY different problems. Here are a few that come to mind:

1. The enforced intimacy problem: this is not just a problem with straight men being uncomfortable swinging with other men. There is a lot of forced intimacy in the ballroom hold. Maybe that intimacy is not the best thing to force on anyone?. Modified ballroom swing would help with the problem of not wanting enforced closeness/intimacy with others for all kinds of reasons: keeping distance from the lecherous dancer who uses the ballroom hold as an excuse for unwanted intimacy; but also simply to provide a bit of space for folks who simply aren’t comfortable being that close to ANYBODY. I recently struck up a conversation with a new dancer who was leaving early (because we need to know why we’re losing potential dancers) and she said “It just feels too intimate.” She didn’t say too intimate swinging with men or with women. Just “too intimate” and I got the definite feeling that it was the enforced close hold (with everyone) that was difficult for her. I wonder if we would have lost her if we used the modified ballroom swing (hand above elbow instead of on shoulder). 

2. There are other difficulties with the ballroom hold: sometimes there is simply not enough room: short arms or large girth can make it difficult to reach the back of the shoulder of the other partner at times, and this leaves the Lark in the uncomfortable/dangerous position of “where do I put my hand now?” While trying to avoid the “accidental side boob graze” issue. 

3. Speaking of which, is nobody else out there having trouble with this “side boob graze” problem with the ballroom hold? I’m a lesbian who dances the Lark role because of knee and hip issues. At least once/evening when moving into or out of the ballroom hold I accidentally graze the side of my partner’s breast. If I were straight I wouldn’t worry about it. But as a lesbian my mind always leaps to “what if she thinks I did that on purpose?” Do straight men not also have this problem?? Why is nobody talking about this?? If the robin is female-presenting, the back of the robin’s shoulder is dangerously close to the side of her breast. Which means (a) it’s easy for a sleaze to cop a feel and pass it off as an accident, and (b) it’s easy for a lesbian or straight man to truly accidentally graze and then worry that they’ll be perceived as a sleaze. The elbow hold would solve both of these problems. 

4. The robin clamping down their arm problem: Larks, have you ever danced with a robin who clamps down their arm on your wrist during the swing? Again, elbow hold would solve this.

5. The problem of robins dancing backwards when swinging: I have never danced the modified ballroom hold, but I’d like to know from folks who do: does it solve the problem of many robins feeling like they need to dance backwards when swinging? On the occasions when I do dance robin (usually because I’m pairing with a newbie who is dancing lark) I often find myself skittering backwards in the swing, instead of both of us walking/dancing forward. I’m not experienced enough as a robin to fully understand this phenomenon, but I think it has to do with the closeness and rigidity of some Larks’ hold in the ballroom swing. Question for folks who have used the elbow hold: does this hold solve this problem and allow the robin to dance forward instead of backward in the swing? 

I am particularly interested in this issue because I am about to move from Toronto (where the ballroom hold is firmly established) to an island off the coast of Vancouver (Bowen Island) where, if I want to continue to dance, I will have to start my own contra dance. This conversation has made me wonder whether I should start that group with the modified ballroom hold to solve many of these problems. I’d love to hear from others who have used this swing about the pros and cons (if any) and any other advice you’d have for someone starting a dance using this swing hold. 

Thanks!!
Becky Liddle
(Note: my email is changing from beckyliddle@bell.net to becky.liddle@icloud.com )


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