On 12/16/2017 12:01 PM, Alexandra Deis-Lauby wrote: And I hadn't realized until this conversation with my dance friend just how problematic that earlier etiquette practice was for folks who really wanted to be considerate of the other dancers on the floor. If they were, for whatever reason, concerned that someone might not want to dance with them, the mere act of asking that person to dance put the askee in a bind. So those who started dancing in the time period when that rule was the norm have carried that dilemma with them through the years. Those of you who are organizers and who deal with setting standards of conduct for your communities, what are your thoughts about this? Has that rule completely fallen by the wayside? If so, have any of you specifically addressed its demise? Kalia

I employ and teach the method that Angela suggests... but not always. I am old school enough that I may sit a dance after a refusal of an offer...but then I rarely refuse an offer to dance unless I really do need a rest or I have some other obligation. I think George Marshall's presentation in the video of his beginner's class is worth considering. This issue is addressed a little after the 11 minute mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14nxFdcaKWA Bob Green St. Louis <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Virus-free. www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:24 PM, Angela DeCarlis via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote:

Greetings All, I really like JD's methods. When teaching I do an abbreviated version of that, but I think I'll expand it to include a _kind_ refusal, and universal participation during the lesson. My husband and I are dance organizers, and for several years have been working hard to make the atmosphere of the dance welcoming and safe for all. We have signs in the restrooms about behavior. The one in the women's states that if one doesn't want to dance with someone, for any reason, it is best to be quick about it, saying, "No, thank you," so the ask-er has time to find a different partner. Skip the lengthy excuse, then find a partner you _want_ to dance with. Also, at the end of a dance, I often encourage people to invite someone who's sitting out to dance. Every once in a while I ask new folks to identify themselves, then ask experienced dancers to dance with them. -Amy On Dec 17, 2017 12:01 AM, "JD Erskine via Callers" < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: On 2017-12-16 1139, Kalia Kliban via Callers wrote: snip To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been I'm aware of it the earlier approach. Like Martha I once chose to follow it and sit one out now and again. I think it's pretty much died, and across a number of dance forms in my village, and the local and larger regions here. I couldn't say when, however it isn't a taught thing, to my knowledge. I've not seen a written statement, in any social/country dance form in my village or the major neighbouring one. When offering an introductory session, typically for Contra or sometimes for a larger/longer "Community" or ONS event, I cover it at some point. Rather than talk about it, or model it, I have _everyone_ pattern it. All I do is state that anyone may ask anyone to dance, that we all have the freedom to accept or not. I often include that _no_ reason, excuse/"excuse", explanation, or additional words are necessary, useful or expected. Then I give a basic verbal example like, "Would you like to dance?" "Yes please/thank you." (depends on my mind that day.) "Would you like to dance?" "No thank you." I count to three, we all _loudly_ ask, then we all loudly answer, accepting. Then I start again and we all ask, then all kindly say no. Often many are laughing by the time that is done. Sometimes I've seen the mood, esp. amongst some who may have seemed concerned (generally), lighten a bit. Usually lots of smiles. Thing is they've all practised it, and now know that those in the room know this is an accepted approach. I think that takes a load off some minds, if not about this then possibly about being there, trying something new. We're laughing and that eases a number of things in general. Enough regular dancers participate in the Contra intro session that it's not only newcomers who hear this, from me. If it's late enough in the time frame of that others are in the room and hear it as well. The Me-Too moment: I've really only had one major instance of a persistent series of "askings", over one event and from one person at that. I danced a couple of them. I then chose to say more, thanking them for the attention and the awareness given me that they thought it fun to dance with me, however pointing out there were more people than I could possibly dance with there over that type of dance weekend, and that I too had friends I'd not dance with if I acquiesced to every request. (We were both visiting that city.) It wasn't comfortable to say, however the attention wasn't welcome either. I think the point was made kindly enough that I wasn't their "ride", to satisfy them simply out of courtesy. Perhaps this informed me a bit with respect to my inclusions when teaching. Dunno. I'm glad of the aspect Alan provided regarding Austenites/Regency. Very handy to know. It's the kind of thing I might have read and automatically tempered myself in a contemporary setting without considering the effect that same reading might have on a died-in-the-wool fan. Thank you for the question and the thread. It might prove to be an interesting and useful one for the SW Dance Organiser list denizens. Compliments of the season to all. Cheers, John -- J.D. Erskine Victoria, BC _______________________________________________ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

Unfortunately, although the rule in question was well-intended, it did lead to folks sometimes getting cornered by those they didn't want to dance with, and they were then stuck sitting out. What I'm hearing from the responses is that this rule is still lingering in a vague, not-quite-stated-but-sort-of-assumed way in a lot of dancers' heads. The fact that it's persisting in some places but not others, or in certain dancer demographics but not others _within the same dance community_, means that we've got some conflicts brewing. One incident was mentioned already here by a dancer who was hurt to see someone who had refused her offer then dancing with someone else. The culture has shifted hugely, both in and out of the dance community, since this rule was initially stated. Might be time to address it head-on rather than letting it lump and bump its way out. Kalia

We put that sign in the women's room because it's not just about declining a dance. It's about having permission to say no, AND what to do about creepy behavior. There's a sign in the men's room about creepy behavior. We haven't specifically addressed the issue of declining a dance with the whole community yet. -Amy On Dec 19, 2017 6:16 AM, "Read Weaver" &lt;rweaver(a)igc.org&gt; wrote: