I don't like to assign roles in the lesson. A lot of good discussion, and a couple points I'll add: - my lesson teaches the swing as allemande R -> 2 hand turn -> swing, and so the concept of the swing being symmetrical except for handholds is established, and then Left/Right side. (And handhold) being the concept introduced as the difference with role. - if there's a small number of new dancers, experienced people in my general region will typically help show the ropes in terms of dancing either role. - for larger groups, I am more likely to specifically have them try both roles - I do like to tell new dancers that for the first couple dances, they should consider sticking with the role in the lesson. I'll say something like "if you're feeling comfortable, absolutely try dancing the other role, too". In dance, Julian Blechner He/Him Western Mass On Mon, Mar 11, 2024, 6:23 PM Winston, Alan P. via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote:

HI all, I wasn't going to respond to this because in my group we do use colour-coded tags for Larks and Ravens and I am aware that most groups prefer not to do that- but then I did have a thought about our process that might be relevant to everyone. (Incidentally, I love our colour-coded tags for beginner-friendly/ beginner-oriented dances, so I'll put a plug in for them.  We put a call-out in our community for clear name tag holders of the sort that delegates receive at conferences.  We expressly collected two types, the ones that pin onto your shirt, and the ones that go around your neck with a string - to allow for people preferring one type of the other. A lovely volunteer made the tags for us. The lark tags are printed on yellow paper.  They have a lark-shaped bird's side-profile, whose beak points towards the right.  Below the image it says LARK in all-caps.  The raven tags are printed on green paper with the same set-up, except the raven profile points towards the left. So when couples stand beside each other, it is so visually easy for them and for the caller and for helpers to see if they are properly matched up with someone of the other bird role.... and then we teach them about the "beak rule" - if the couple is standing in the correct orientation relative to each other,  the beaks of each bird point inwards towards the other). Anyhow, we love this system but I recognize it isn't for everyone. What I wanted to share is about the way we assign bird roles. We have a basket with all the "bird tags" at the entrance table, and as people enter, our door volunteers explain that in the dance, there are two nearly equivalent roles, and new dancers should choose one role to stick with for the night.  Since people often come to the dance in small groups of 2 or more, we explain that if you want to be able to dance with a certain friend you came with, it will make sense for each of you to choose the opposite role so you can be paired up together. The volunteers also keep rough track in their head of odd-numbered guests who come in and choose a tag, so that they can encourage the next person who comes in to choose the opposite tag. This way by the time everyone comes together in a big teaching circle, we are pretty sure we have even numbers of larks and ravens. One of the first things I do, after the general introduction, is ask everyone to temporarily pair up with someone of the opposite bird role holding inside hands, to check if there is an excess number of one bird or the other, in which case our volunteers quickly come around with more tags, to fix the situation. (I'll also point out that we have many experienced dancers in our  group who enjoy being able to switch roles to fill a void, so these folks dance with a special tag, with the other bird role hidden behind the first one, in their plastic sleeve, for quick switches!) Anyhow, I was thinking - even without physical tags or other markers, would it still be worth considering an approach of assigning people their bird roles as they enter the hall? And that way you can advise people as we do, that if you are with a friend who you hope to dance with at some point in the evening, you should not choose the same role? Kat K in Hfx

Hi, Maia, all, I have seen a few choices at our weekly dance, and Louise when she called for us did a great job.  I think some of the things that have been said in this thread kind of work well, and I have continued to adjust the way I teach based on some of the things I have seen and have read.  Having people try both roles is great.   I am not sure I'd go into the history of genders because that will get the nugget of info in dancers' heads that the roles have a loose base in gender.  I think we might consider never even talking gender at all. One issue that has befuddled me is actually how to deal with the experienced dancers who join the lesson as the ringers.  We love our experienced dancers coming early to help out!  Except, I'd like to not have experienced dancers put their own agenda into the lesson by forcing gender roles if they are not fans of gender free dancing.  I've seen that done and then the lesson becomes gendered even as I insist on teaching in a gender free way.  I think finding ways for people to try both roles at times of the lesson certainly is ideal to continue to reinforce gender free dancing, but I don't think that experienced dancers should be going against the instructor and forcing gendered dancing. Perry On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 10:47:55 AM EDT, Maia McCormick via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: Hey there, hive mind, When you're calling larks and robins, during the lesson, how do youa. explain the roles to the new folks, andb. put the beginners into roles for the duration of the lesson? I've seen "try swinging in both roles and see which feels better", I've seen "unless you have a preference, whoever is standing on the right of your partnership is the robin for now", I've seen "pick whichever bird you like better", I've seen "the robin's role is a little easier so do that if you feel less confident"... I'm curious what folks here do and in what kind of distribution, and how you find it works for you in practice. (Please please please let's not relitigate gender-free contra or the bird terms in this thread. If you really must, please make a separate thread.) Swingingly,Maia --Maia McCormick (she/her)917.279.8194_______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

Maia, (Maia asked me a questions about "gendering" and I thought I'd share it with all. I have expanded on my previous remarks as well. My first couple of responses were from my phone - yuk. I hate doing anything that way and tend to become brief and unclear just because it is difficult for me to respond. I am now at my computer where I can actually type!) I have to say that most of my "beginner" lessons are with private group experience and they are mostly unaware of any gender issues within the community at large. Saying that, yes they do tend to move toward gendered, Most folks gravitating to their personal preference or life role. These are weddings, private equine groups, corporate things, at dances it is a different thing all together. Recently I have been hired to do a series of weekly contra dance lessons (I know I tried to tell them but...I'll take the money!) for a local senior center; cumulating with a big dance the 5th week with a band etc. So this topic is of great interest. Hopefully this will garner some new dancers for the home dance as well. When (IMHO) people come to a contra dance it is at the invitation or suggestion of a friend, co-worker, or group affiliation leader and rarely a walk-in situation. That of course does happen but in the community here, rarely. Those that come do not have any gendered expectations. I see typically pairs of women (friends not couples), or mixed gendered couples (m/w) and we hardly ever/never get same gendered, queer or other people attending. (SADLY) When leading the introduction to contra basics (we do not use lesson as we state NO LESSONS REQUIRED) gender is not talked about. Like the others I sometimes use a circle if there are enough to even lead a group. Then I teach: giving weight, circle right/left, La Bastringue and how to swing, I talk about the music and how it "tells" you when to move. We count 8 steps circle, 8 steps do-si-do etc. If there are kids I do either two hand or traditional ball-room style, using the pointer hands and opening up like a book to put people side by side. Then I introduce Lark and Robin. as positions and anyone can dance either - dance with who comes at you and that we all screw up including me and then when I do, I make to sure to tell those beginners "see! I told you I would!" Most couples (m/w) tend to want to dance together and while encouraged to dance with others often will not and in these cases they almost always choose the typical gender role. It has happened on occasion that they will mix it up but that is those rare times that we get younger than 40yo people. I call all dances Larks & Robins - UNLESS it is a really really traditional group like my trail riding horse group. They are SO traditional...but they seem to love it enough to beg me to do a dance at the "big weekend", it's fun but I have to call Gents/Ladies for them. I hope this helps. Mary On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 2:03 PM Maia McCormick &lt;maia.mcc(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

Hey All, To the original question: We give out red (for robins) and yellow (larks) bandanas when people arrive. We say these are for the roles. We don't explain any history because we need to prioritize essential learning, i.e., what is a do-si-do. Our perspective is from that of starting and organizing two separate beginner contradance/folk dance series. The dancing participants for both are essentially 98% beginners, whether first-timers or in their first year of dancing or have forgotten most of what they once learned. From Day One, both dances were established as gender neutral, larks/robins with some positional. Here's a clip of the first dance of the evening. La Bastringue https://youtu.be/pRL3pYmZoHM?si=lPsfCVUYiSVLXiAr Rob - - - - - - - - - - - - Robert Matson On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 1:57 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote:

I'm still trying to work this out too. My most recent experiment: Have them assign roles during the promenade. After circle left/right/forward and back, I have them partner up and then promenade as couples. Once we've established counterclockwise, I let them know that the person on the left is doing the lark's role, and the person on the right's is doing the robin's role. I need to try this a few more times before I figure out if I want to keep doing it this way. (I like to have the swing a bit later in the workshop, just to catch more newcomers that didn't _quite_ make it to the start of the beginner lesson. And to work on other connected figures like allemande and two-hand turn.) Cheers, -Chris Page Los Angeles

Hi Maia, Here's my recent thoughts on the subject, in chronological order for the first walkthrough: 1. To me, there's nothing really to explain. I find it's too much complication for too little help, and I don't really think roles exist in an integral way as others do. I'm not here to give history lessons, I'm here to get people moving and smiling. I'd rather spend my time thanking people for participating and putting them at ease. You might want to try skipping over the section of your lessons in question and come up with a new way (see below). Different people do different things in the dance, but, in my opinion, it's just easier to teach those things in the moment rather than create an "original" geometry. 2. I do essentially what Louise has mentioned, circle people up first (I always teach La Bastringue for the first dance), then get people to practice the swing with partner and neighbour separately, utilizing the concept of the "pointy hand", a la Louise. 3. Then I encourage that if someone has a preference for side, they should communicate that to their partner. I stress that it doesn't really matter. Most dances I teach are partner-symmetrical. Most noobies just stay where they are. 4. From here I use bi-coloured wrist bands (scrunchies) to identify people. I'm not a positional caller - I think the duality of 1st and 2nd couple is mirrored in the duality of the partners, and not everything is symmetrical. What you really want, what you're really asking for, is an easier way to explain what each person is doing. I just received feedback last night from a new dancer who's been coming monthly for the last year-or-so, that the bi-coloured wrist bands I initiated in December is making a world of difference for cohesion. Years ago, the local ECD group adopted coloured sashes for the right-hand people (formerly expected to be women), and the local international group adopted formal wear ties for the left hand people (formerly, though rarely, men) when they danced partner dances. I supercharged the idea by utilizing bi-coloured scrunchies, directing them to be put on specific wrists - this is key. Now everyone wears something, rather than some people essentially being outed for not being in the traditional role (thus requiring additional identifiers). The bands do more though. The colours identify "role": Orange is lead/lark/man, blue is follow/robin/woman. But since the orange bands are on the left wrist and the blue bands are on the right wrist, this gives a secondary word to use to identify who I'm talking to. I'm tending to use right-hand person and left-hand person, rather than my previous lead/follow designations, which is more positional. They're essentially the same thing - roles, but these ones are easier to understand and see under pressure. I also think it's a slight leg up on arm bands because people are looking at others' hands more often, and I can also identify people's pointy hands - they're the ones with the coloured wrist bands!! Swinging is much easier now, and I can use the pointy hand concept to help people end up on the correct side. THANKS LOUISE!! Greg Winnipeg P.S. I tried to buy red and blue, but the colour on the online ad for the wrist bands was off and they came orange. I much preferred the idea of "making purple" as a phrase for swinging but orange is good, too. lol Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. This is filler text that changes the size of the messages I send - an added layer of security for detection and identification of encrypted information using metadata. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. This is filler text that changes the size of the messages I send - an added layer of security for detection and identification of encrypted information using metadata. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. Sent with Proton Mail secure email. On Sunday, March 10th, 2024 at 11:22 AM, Louise Siddons via Contra Callers contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net wrote:

No John, lol, I teach those old dances often since I am the unofficial princess of beginner dancers teaching...😀🤣 Super great for kids & families. Mary On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 1:55 PM John Sweeney via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote:

Hi, “Some dances have been around since George Washington's time”! Oh! So, you only do the recent stuff :-) Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent

I start intro lessons in a circle, partner people off as soon as it becomes necessary, and teach them both sides of the swing (by asking them to shift their arms while swinging; this is partly about teaching them not to drag on each other). Then I say, your partner might have a preference so you should always ask — and I explain that the preference might be about an injury, about how they were taught to dance, or about balancing out their experience over the course of the evening. Obviously I can’t listen to every couple on the floor but from the mic it appears to me that new dancers do then ask those they’re dancing with and over the course of the first half the outcome reflects the character of the crowd more than individual new-dancer preferences. Perhaps also obviously to some people I do all of this without reference to role terms except to alert new dancers that they may hear a variety of role terms from experienced dancers on the floor. If I’m at a L&R dance I say explicitly that they might hear larks and robins, and here’s what that means. (New dancers were not born yesterday and they figure out the gendered role terms quickly if there are dancers using them.) Incidentally, I find the claim Maia cites about the robin role being easier extremely questionable. Do people truly generally say/believe that? Louise. [the rest snipped for brevity]