22 May
2024
22 May
'24
11:49 a.m.
tldr: those of you who are anti-Petronella claps (in general, not just in
specific cases where they interrupt flow from the spin into the next move),
I want to understand why!
Clapping on Petronella turns has been the overwhelming norm ever since I
started dancing, but I know that it wasn't always this way, and that some
folks vehemently dislike it. Well recently I've noted the (baffling??
inexplicable??) rise of clapping after the spin on Rory O'Moore's, which
makes my blood boil (it's so satisfying to catch hands in the new wave out
of the spin, why would you ever NOT do that??), and it's making me think
more about Petronella claps.
Clapping on a Rory bugs me so much because it interrupts the momentum of
spin-and-catch-hands. I'll admit that I don't understand the objection to
Petronella claps, at least through that lens. Like certainly, in a
specifically Cure for the Claps-type* dance (with e.g. Petronella spin into
allemande left, Petronella spin into swing, etc.), clapping interrupts the
momentum, and it's way more satisfying to spin directly into the next move.
But given a bog standard "Petronella, Petronella, balance and swing" or
similar, I don't feel like the claps interrupt the momentum or disrupt
transitions, and in fact are a nice fun way to fill space.
To be clear, the above isn't an argument in favor of Petronella claps, just
me explaining where I'm coming from. So now we come to my question:
1. *those of you who are anti-Petronella claps, can you explain why?* I
want to understand! Is it a satisfying momentum thing that I've just never
experienced because I'm so used to clapping? Dedication to historical
accuracy? Something else entirely?
2. *what dance(s) would you use to make your case to a contemporary contra
hall, that aren't explicitly written as Cure for the Claps dances?* Petronella
spin to a swing feels great, and of *course* you shouldn't clap there
(although some folks inexplicably do, sigh)—but if you'd prefer that we
didn't clap even in a dance like Tica Tica Timing, then a CftC dance isn't
the whole story. If you had the infinite good will of a contemporary contra
hall, and were able to say to the dancers "don't clap on the Petronellas in
this one and just pay attention to how nice it feels to X and how
satisfying it is to Y", what dance would you use, what things would you
tell the dancers to clue into, etc. to make your case? (And what would you
ask the band for?)
Thanks as always for your expertise!
Cheers,
Maia
* Cure for the Claps contra: a dance that discourages clapping during the
Petronella turn, often by putting moves directly after the Petronella that
flow nicely from a spin. May be intentional or incidental. See e.g.: The
Cure for the Claps
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=10364> (Bob
Isaacs), Becket in the Kitchen
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=17> (Becky
Hill)
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
24 May
24 May
12:06 a.m.
Here's a potential cure-for-the-claps contra. The petronellas lead
into an allemande left and a swing, both of which are better
without the clap.
Improper
A1 (16) Neighbour balance and swing
A2 (8) Balance the ring and petronella turn
(8) Swing partner
B1 (8) Balance the ring and petronella turn
(8) Neighbour allemande left 1+1/2
B2 (16) Women pass right shoulder to start a whole hey
Untested, of course
Peter
23 May
23 May
4:13 p.m.
The hands meet with very little impact, about as clapping your own hands
together.
It's definitely possible to contact someone's hand hard enough to hurt them
with this style, and sometimes overenthusiastic dancers do this, but I
think that's pretty rare.
The important part is the timing satisfaction of the hands coming together
exactly with the music, on beats #7 and #8, not the making noise.
Jeff
On Thu, May 23, 2024, 3:11 PM John Sweeney via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
OUCH!!!
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England
*From:* Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
A kind of "clapping" I like a lot on Rory O'Mores is when you balance
right and left, slide right, and then on beats "7" and "8" you
percussively
(but without so much force that you hurt anyone!) connect hands in the new
wave with first your left hand and then your right. And the left/right
reverse when sliding back. It's a nice bit of connection, though it does
require good timing.
(This is different from clapping your own hands together on beats "7-and"
and "8", petronella-style)
Jeff
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3:10 p.m.
OUCH!!!
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England
From: Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
A kind of "clapping" I like a lot on Rory O'Mores is when you balance right
and left, slide right, and then on beats "7" and "8" you percussively
(but without so much force that you hurt anyone!) connect hands in the new wave with first
your left hand and then your right. And the left/right reverse when sliding back.
It's a nice bit of connection, though it does require good timing.
(This is different from clapping your own hands together on beats "7-and" and
"8", petronella-style)
Jeff
2:52 p.m.
A kind of "clapping" I like a lot on Rory O'Mores is when you balance right
and left, slide right, and then on beats "7" and "8" you percussively
(but
without so much force that you hurt anyone!) connect hands in the new wave
with first your left hand and then your right. And the left/right
reverse when sliding back. It's a nice bit of connection, though it does
require good timing.
(This is different from clapping your own hands together on beats "7-and"
and "8", petronella-style)
Jeff
On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 2:30 PM Koren A. Wake via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
As a dancer, I usually prefer not to clap myself, but
I usually don't mind
if other people clap for normal Petronellas. As a caller, I usually tell
the dancers that claps are optional, but when it's a cure-for-the-claps
type dance I do strongly encourage them *not* to clap and I point out how
the spin is designed to flow directly into the next move. In those cases, I
also usually ask the musicians to play smoother music so that the *music* doesn't
encourage clapping. And as a musician, I actually *love* when I can
predict when the dancers will clap, and can play with that (breaks, etc.).
In Seattle we've had a recent trend of some dancers expanding the
Petronella claps - deliberately clapping early or late or on off-beats (but
still rhythmic, just *playing with expectations*), to the point where
sometimes you can hear clapping on every beat throughout the move, even if
every individual dancer is only doing two claps. It's fun as a novelty
(even though it breaks the circle connection even more), and I do
occasionally participate, but only if the dance is otherwise very simple,
and only if the music seems to want it. I've seen that kind of thing come
and go in other scenes before, too, so I'm not *too* worried about it
taking over as an all-the-time thing.
All of that said, I completely agree with Maia that (a) clapping on Rory
O'More moves (and box circulates!) is trending up, and also (b) in my
opinion this is basically ALWAYS bad because it basically ALWAYS detracts
from reconnecting to the new wave in time to redirect into a satisfying
balance. One of the workshop ideas that I've been developing is on wavy
line balances and connections, and I think this is one of the points that
I'll try to hit!
To answer Maia's original question, I can absolutely see how that "it's
always bad because it detracts from reconnecting" opinion could also apply
to Petronellas in exactly the same way. I would posit that by now we are so
used to the claps in that specific context, that we don't think about how
much less rushed the connect-and-balance action *could* be if we instead
actively reconnected *before *we balance the ring again. I suspect that's
the root of the curmudgeonliness of some (or most?) of the folks who object
to claps on principal - many of them may be long-time dancers who *do* remember
what we're missing.
And on the other hand, I would *also* argue that since I define a balance
(generally) as two steps together to create a compression connection that
peaks on beat 2 (followed by two steps apart to create a tension connection
that peaks on beat 4, to be ready to spring into whatever comes next), it
doesn't actually matter whether your hands are connected before beat 1
unless you *need* tension before beat 1 to help you get *into* the
balance together on one and two (as in Rory waves, where you need to stop &
redirect your outward momentum so that you can begin to balance together).
Whereas when you're reconnecting in a Petronella circle, or going into a
regular balance and swing, you generally don't have so much momentum from
the spin that you need the new connection in order to redirect into the
balance. In those cases I think it's *fine* to just start moving towards
each other on 1, as long as you have that compression connection by the
time beat 2 arrives.
OK I have definitely rambled enough here! Hope any of this is useful
and/or food for thought.
Koren Wake
(Seattle WA, dancer, caller, musician)
On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 9:36 AM David Chandler via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
As a very old dancer, I have 2 objections to the
clap:
1. I enjoy flow and slight changes in momentum. I can't think of a
sequence off-hand where there isn't at least a slight pause and change in
momentum caused by clapping. If balance and swing is the next move, instead
of turning directly to one's partner and getting the balance underway, one
pauses for a second to smile at one's neighbors after such a satisfying
moment, and to think about what comes next. With other sequences the
disruption is more marked - I dislike standing ready to take hands and
circle while others are clapping. Etc. There is no way an action that
requires stopping movement and standing in one place can not interfere with
what comes next - I assume that most people enjoy clapping more than
momentum. I understand your feeling about clapping in a Rory, but assume
that the clapping will spread and become universal for that as well.
Different strokes...
2. People learn the clap by osmosis, so everyone claps for everything,
whether it is disruptive to the next move or not (if one assumes it can not
be disruptive). If dancers were experienced enough to think about what they
are doing, so they only did it when the effect was minimal, that would be
marginally better - but they aren't, for the most part.
It is a lost cause. I can't imagine what could make clapping stop once it
starts - but we'll see. Perhaps clapping will spread to so many points in
the dance (after heys!) that everyone says, "Enough already!" and agrees to
ban clapping. Or dancing will just be different, changed as it has been so
many times in the past.
Curmudgeonly yours,
David
On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 11:50 AM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
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tldr: those of you who are anti-Petronella claps
(in general, not just
in specific cases where they interrupt flow from the spin into the next
move), I want to understand why!
Clapping on Petronella turns has been the overwhelming norm ever since I
started dancing, but I know that it wasn't always this way, and that some
folks vehemently dislike it. Well recently I've noted the (baffling??
inexplicable??) rise of clapping after the spin on Rory O'Moore's, which
makes my blood boil (it's so satisfying to catch hands in the new wave out
of the spin, why would you ever NOT do that??), and it's making me think
more about Petronella claps.
Clapping on a Rory bugs me so much because it interrupts the momentum of
spin-and-catch-hands. I'll admit that I don't understand the objection to
Petronella claps, at least through that lens. Like certainly, in a
specifically Cure for the Claps-type* dance (with e.g. Petronella spin into
allemande left, Petronella spin into swing, etc.), clapping interrupts the
momentum, and it's way more satisfying to spin directly into the next move.
But given a bog standard "Petronella, Petronella, balance and swing" or
similar, I don't feel like the claps interrupt the momentum or disrupt
transitions, and in fact are a nice fun way to fill space.
To be clear, the above isn't an argument in favor of Petronella claps,
just me explaining where I'm coming from. So now we come to my question:
1. *those of you who are anti-Petronella claps, can you explain why?* I
want to understand! Is it a satisfying momentum thing that I've just never
experienced because I'm so used to clapping? Dedication to historical
accuracy? Something else entirely?
2. *what dance(s) would you use to make your case to a contemporary
contra hall, that aren't explicitly written as Cure for the Claps dances?*
Petronella
spin to a swing feels great, and of *course* you shouldn't clap there
(although some folks inexplicably do, sigh)—but if you'd prefer that we
didn't clap even in a dance like Tica Tica Timing, then a CftC dance isn't
the whole story. If you had the infinite good will of a contemporary contra
hall, and were able to say to the dancers "don't clap on the Petronellas in
this one and just pay attention to how nice it feels to X and how
satisfying it is to Y", what dance would you use, what things would you
tell the dancers to clue into, etc. to make your case? (And what would you
ask the band for?)
Thanks as always for your expertise!
Cheers,
Maia
* Cure for the Claps contra: a dance that discourages clapping during
the Petronella turn, often by putting moves directly after the Petronella
that flow nicely from a spin. May be intentional or incidental. See e.g.: The
Cure for the Claps
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=10364>
(Bob Isaacs), Becket in the Kitchen
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=17>
(Becky Hill)
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to
contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to
contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
2:29 p.m.
As a dancer, I usually prefer not to clap myself, but I usually don't mind
if other people clap for normal Petronellas. As a caller, I usually tell
the dancers that claps are optional, but when it's a cure-for-the-claps
type dance I do strongly encourage them *not* to clap and I point out how
the spin is designed to flow directly into the next move. In those cases, I
also usually ask the musicians to play smoother music so that the
*music* doesn't
encourage clapping. And as a musician, I actually *love* when I can predict
when the dancers will clap, and can play with that (breaks, etc.).
In Seattle we've had a recent trend of some dancers expanding the
Petronella claps - deliberately clapping early or late or on off-beats (but
still rhythmic, just *playing with expectations*), to the point where
sometimes you can hear clapping on every beat throughout the move, even if
every individual dancer is only doing two claps. It's fun as a novelty
(even though it breaks the circle connection even more), and I do
occasionally participate, but only if the dance is otherwise very simple,
and only if the music seems to want it. I've seen that kind of thing come
and go in other scenes before, too, so I'm not *too* worried about it
taking over as an all-the-time thing.
All of that said, I completely agree with Maia that (a) clapping on Rory
O'More moves (and box circulates!) is trending up, and also (b) in my
opinion this is basically ALWAYS bad because it basically ALWAYS detracts
from reconnecting to the new wave in time to redirect into a satisfying
balance. One of the workshop ideas that I've been developing is on wavy
line balances and connections, and I think this is one of the points that
I'll try to hit!
To answer Maia's original question, I can absolutely see how that "it's
always bad because it detracts from reconnecting" opinion could also apply
to Petronellas in exactly the same way. I would posit that by now we are so
used to the claps in that specific context, that we don't think about how
much less rushed the connect-and-balance action *could* be if we instead
actively reconnected *before *we balance the ring again. I suspect that's
the root of the curmudgeonliness of some (or most?) of the folks who object
to claps on principal - many of them may be long-time dancers who *do* remember
what we're missing.
And on the other hand, I would *also* argue that since I define a balance
(generally) as two steps together to create a compression connection that
peaks on beat 2 (followed by two steps apart to create a tension connection
that peaks on beat 4, to be ready to spring into whatever comes next), it
doesn't actually matter whether your hands are connected before beat 1
unless you *need* tension before beat 1 to help you get *into* the balance
together on one and two (as in Rory waves, where you need to stop &
redirect your outward momentum so that you can begin to balance together).
Whereas when you're reconnecting in a Petronella circle, or going into a
regular balance and swing, you generally don't have so much momentum from
the spin that you need the new connection in order to redirect into the
balance. In those cases I think it's *fine* to just start moving towards
each other on 1, as long as you have that compression connection by the
time beat 2 arrives.
OK I have definitely rambled enough here! Hope any of this is useful and/or
food for thought.
Koren Wake
(Seattle WA, dancer, caller, musician)
On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 9:36 AM David Chandler via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
As a very old dancer, I have 2 objections to the
clap:
1. I enjoy flow and slight changes in momentum. I can't think of a
sequence off-hand where there isn't at least a slight pause and change in
momentum caused by clapping. If balance and swing is the next move, instead
of turning directly to one's partner and getting the balance underway, one
pauses for a second to smile at one's neighbors after such a satisfying
moment, and to think about what comes next. With other sequences the
disruption is more marked - I dislike standing ready to take hands and
circle while others are clapping. Etc. There is no way an action that
requires stopping movement and standing in one place can not interfere with
what comes next - I assume that most people enjoy clapping more than
momentum. I understand your feeling about clapping in a Rory, but assume
that the clapping will spread and become universal for that as well.
Different strokes...
2. People learn the clap by osmosis, so everyone claps for everything,
whether it is disruptive to the next move or not (if one assumes it can not
be disruptive). If dancers were experienced enough to think about what they
are doing, so they only did it when the effect was minimal, that would be
marginally better - but they aren't, for the most part.
It is a lost cause. I can't imagine what could make clapping stop once it
starts - but we'll see. Perhaps clapping will spread to so many points in
the dance (after heys!) that everyone says, "Enough already!" and agrees to
ban clapping. Or dancing will just be different, changed as it has been so
many times in the past.
Curmudgeonly yours,
David
On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 11:50 AM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
tldr: those of you who are anti-Petronella claps
(in general, not just in
specific cases where they interrupt flow from the spin into the next move),
I want to understand why!
Clapping on Petronella turns has been the overwhelming norm ever since I
started dancing, but I know that it wasn't always this way, and that some
folks vehemently dislike it. Well recently I've noted the (baffling??
inexplicable??) rise of clapping after the spin on Rory O'Moore's, which
makes my blood boil (it's so satisfying to catch hands in the new wave out
of the spin, why would you ever NOT do that??), and it's making me think
more about Petronella claps.
Clapping on a Rory bugs me so much because it interrupts the momentum of
spin-and-catch-hands. I'll admit that I don't understand the objection to
Petronella claps, at least through that lens. Like certainly, in a
specifically Cure for the Claps-type* dance (with e.g. Petronella spin into
allemande left, Petronella spin into swing, etc.), clapping interrupts the
momentum, and it's way more satisfying to spin directly into the next move.
But given a bog standard "Petronella, Petronella, balance and swing" or
similar, I don't feel like the claps interrupt the momentum or disrupt
transitions, and in fact are a nice fun way to fill space.
To be clear, the above isn't an argument in favor of Petronella claps,
just me explaining where I'm coming from. So now we come to my question:
1. *those of you who are anti-Petronella claps, can you explain why?* I
want to understand! Is it a satisfying momentum thing that I've just never
experienced because I'm so used to clapping? Dedication to historical
accuracy? Something else entirely?
2. *what dance(s) would you use to make your case to a contemporary
contra hall, that aren't explicitly written as Cure for the Claps dances?*
Petronella
spin to a swing feels great, and of *course* you shouldn't clap there
(although some folks inexplicably do, sigh)—but if you'd prefer that we
didn't clap even in a dance like Tica Tica Timing, then a CftC dance isn't
the whole story. If you had the infinite good will of a contemporary contra
hall, and were able to say to the dancers "don't clap on the Petronellas in
this one and just pay attention to how nice it feels to X and how
satisfying it is to Y", what dance would you use, what things would you
tell the dancers to clue into, etc. to make your case? (And what would you
ask the band for?)
Thanks as always for your expertise!
Cheers,
Maia
* Cure for the Claps contra: a dance that discourages clapping during the
Petronella turn, often by putting moves directly after the Petronella that
flow nicely from a spin. May be intentional or incidental. See e.g.: The
Cure for the Claps
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=10364>
(Bob Isaacs), Becket in the Kitchen
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=17>
(Becky Hill)
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to
contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
12:35 p.m.
As a very old dancer, I have 2 objections to the clap:
1. I enjoy flow and slight changes in momentum. I can't think of a sequence
off-hand where there isn't at least a slight pause and change in momentum
caused by clapping. If balance and swing is the next move, instead of
turning directly to one's partner and getting the balance underway, one
pauses for a second to smile at one's neighbors after such a satisfying
moment, and to think about what comes next. With other sequences the
disruption is more marked - I dislike standing ready to take hands and
circle while others are clapping. Etc. There is no way an action that
requires stopping movement and standing in one place can not interfere with
what comes next - I assume that most people enjoy clapping more than
momentum. I understand your feeling about clapping in a Rory, but assume
that the clapping will spread and become universal for that as well.
Different strokes...
2. People learn the clap by osmosis, so everyone claps for everything,
whether it is disruptive to the next move or not (if one assumes it can not
be disruptive). If dancers were experienced enough to think about what they
are doing, so they only did it when the effect was minimal, that would be
marginally better - but they aren't, for the most part.
It is a lost cause. I can't imagine what could make clapping stop once it
starts - but we'll see. Perhaps clapping will spread to so many points in
the dance (after heys!) that everyone says, "Enough already!" and agrees to
ban clapping. Or dancing will just be different, changed as it has been so
many times in the past.
Curmudgeonly yours,
David
On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 11:50 AM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
tldr: those of you who are anti-Petronella claps (in
general, not just in
specific cases where they interrupt flow from the spin into the next move),
I want to understand why!
Clapping on Petronella turns has been the overwhelming norm ever since I
started dancing, but I know that it wasn't always this way, and that some
folks vehemently dislike it. Well recently I've noted the (baffling??
inexplicable??) rise of clapping after the spin on Rory O'Moore's, which
makes my blood boil (it's so satisfying to catch hands in the new wave out
of the spin, why would you ever NOT do that??), and it's making me think
more about Petronella claps.
Clapping on a Rory bugs me so much because it interrupts the momentum of
spin-and-catch-hands. I'll admit that I don't understand the objection to
Petronella claps, at least through that lens. Like certainly, in a
specifically Cure for the Claps-type* dance (with e.g. Petronella spin into
allemande left, Petronella spin into swing, etc.), clapping interrupts the
momentum, and it's way more satisfying to spin directly into the next move.
But given a bog standard "Petronella, Petronella, balance and swing" or
similar, I don't feel like the claps interrupt the momentum or disrupt
transitions, and in fact are a nice fun way to fill space.
To be clear, the above isn't an argument in favor of Petronella claps,
just me explaining where I'm coming from. So now we come to my question:
1. *those of you who are anti-Petronella claps, can you explain why?* I
want to understand! Is it a satisfying momentum thing that I've just never
experienced because I'm so used to clapping? Dedication to historical
accuracy? Something else entirely?
2. *what dance(s) would you use to make your case to a contemporary
contra hall, that aren't explicitly written as Cure for the Claps dances?*
Petronella
spin to a swing feels great, and of *course* you shouldn't clap there
(although some folks inexplicably do, sigh)—but if you'd prefer that we
didn't clap even in a dance like Tica Tica Timing, then a CftC dance isn't
the whole story. If you had the infinite good will of a contemporary contra
hall, and were able to say to the dancers "don't clap on the Petronellas in
this one and just pay attention to how nice it feels to X and how
satisfying it is to Y", what dance would you use, what things would you
tell the dancers to clue into, etc. to make your case? (And what would you
ask the band for?)
Thanks as always for your expertise!
Cheers,
Maia
* Cure for the Claps contra: a dance that discourages clapping during the
Petronella turn, often by putting moves directly after the Petronella that
flow nicely from a spin. May be intentional or incidental. See e.g.: The
Cure for the Claps
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=10364>
(Bob Isaacs), Becket in the Kitchen
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=17>
(Becky Hill)
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
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Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
11:53 a.m.
I wear hearing aids with several settings for live music (amplified and
non-amplified). My hands go over my ears, anticipating the petronella clap.
There is something about the (almost) unison, very near clap that
physically hurts my ears. Applause doesn't hurt my ears.
The petranella clap is not as painful on the hearing aid's generic setting,
but the music is so less attractive - Too much gets filtered out or
distorted.
Gloria Krusemeyer
now in Arlington, MA
On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 5:43 PM Michael Barraclough via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
My understanding, and to some extent experience, is
that musicians did not
like it because the dancers often failed to find the correct beat.
Michael Barraclough
On 22 May 2024 17:45:44 Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
John Sweeney hit on a big reason I'm baffled,
in pointing out that the
balances in Petronella (the dance) are in the second half of a phrase. So
what's funny is that in the originally Petronella, it's
Spin spin spin pause
Stomp Stomp Stomp Stomp (or steps, but, still)
And in the modern move it's
Stomp Stomp Stomp stomp
Spin spin spin pause
So the originally Petronella had everyone making percussive noise on that
last measure. And the modern move has people filling in that pause with
percussive sounds.
I've heard from people say "you need the beat or two to take hands" but
like, somehow that's not true with every other move where a move ends and
you need to join hands in a ring immediately - after a swing, bending a
line of four, turning to a new neighbor on a progression and readying for a
balance, etc.
My summation is it's just a preference.
And I notice when bands play chiller tunes for Petronella spins, fewer
people clap, so...
...
Anyway, I also very much would love to hear any other explanations of
"clapping in Petronellas is wrong".
In dance,
Julian Blechner.
On Wed, May 22, 2024, 12:16 PM Richard Fischer via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
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Hi Maia,
I have no claim to expertise, but I'm with you. In dances where the
Petronella claps don't interfere with anything, why not? Dancers enjoy it,
and it can often be one of the first things new dancers notice about
unified timing. I'm not sure how it originated, but since the move
previously was often spin first then a satisfying balance, maybe the claps
were a way to still have that nice rhythmic end to the phrase. In any
event, why should a caller tell a hall full of dancers they're wrong?
With best wishes,
Richard Fischer
Arlington, MA
On May 22, 2024, at 11:49 AM, Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
tldr: those of you who are anti-Petronella claps (in general, not just
in specific cases where they interrupt flow from the spin into the next
move), I want to understand why!
Clapping on Petronella turns has been the overwhelming norm ever since I
started dancing, but I know that it wasn't always this way, and that some
folks vehemently dislike it. Well recently I've noted the (baffling??
inexplicable??) rise of clapping after the spin on Rory O'Moore's, which
makes my blood boil (it's so satisfying to catch hands in the new wave out
of the spin, why would you ever NOT do that??), and it's making me think
more about Petronella claps.
Clapping on a Rory bugs me so much because it interrupts the momentum of
spin-and-catch-hands. I'll admit that I don't understand the objection to
Petronella claps, at least through that lens. Like certainly, in a
specifically Cure for the Claps-type* dance (with e.g. Petronella spin into
allemande left, Petronella spin into swing, etc.), clapping interrupts the
momentum, and it's way more satisfying to spin directly into the next move.
But given a bog standard "Petronella, Petronella, balance and swing" or
similar, I don't feel like the claps interrupt the momentum or disrupt
transitions, and in fact are a nice fun way to fill space.
To be clear, the above isn't an argument in favor of Petronella claps,
just me explaining where I'm coming from. So now we come to my question:
1. *those of you who are anti-Petronella claps, can you explain why?* I
want to understand! Is it a satisfying momentum thing that I've just never
experienced because I'm so used to clapping? Dedication to historical
accuracy? Something else entirely?
2. *what dance(s) would you use to make your case to a contemporary
contra hall, that aren't explicitly written as Cure for the Claps dances?*
Petronella
spin to a swing feels great, and of *course* you shouldn't clap there
(although some folks inexplicably do, sigh)—but if you'd prefer that we
didn't clap even in a dance like Tica Tica Timing, then a CftC dance isn't
the whole story. If you had the infinite good will of a contemporary contra
hall, and were able to say to the dancers "don't clap on the Petronellas in
this one and just pay attention to how nice it feels to X and how
satisfying it is to Y", what dance would you use, what things would you
tell the dancers to clue into, etc. to make your case? (And what would you
ask the band for?)
Thanks as always for your expertise!
Cheers,
Maia
* Cure for the Claps contra: a dance that discourages clapping during
the Petronella turn, often by putting moves directly after the Petronella
that flow nicely from a spin. May be intentional or incidental. See e.g.: The
Cure for the Claps
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=10364>
(Bob Isaacs), Becket in the Kitchen
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=17>
(Becky Hill)
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
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22 May
22 May
5:42 p.m.
My understanding, and to some extent experience, is that musicians did not
like it because the dancers often failed to find the correct beat.
Michael Barraclough
On 22 May 2024 17:45:44 Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
John Sweeney hit on a big reason I'm baffled, in
pointing out that the
balances in Petronella (the dance) are in the second half of a phrase. So
what's funny is that in the originally Petronella, it's
Spin spin spin pause
Stomp Stomp Stomp Stomp (or steps, but, still)
And in the modern move it's
Stomp Stomp Stomp stomp
Spin spin spin pause
So the originally Petronella had everyone making percussive noise on that
last measure. And the modern move has people filling in that pause with
percussive sounds.
I've heard from people say "you need the beat or two to take hands" but
like, somehow that's not true with every other move where a move ends and
you need to join hands in a ring immediately - after a swing, bending a
line of four, turning to a new neighbor on a progression and readying for a
balance, etc.
My summation is it's just a preference.
And I notice when bands play chiller tunes for Petronella spins, fewer
people clap, so...
...
Anyway, I also very much would love to hear any other explanations of
"clapping in Petronellas is wrong".
In dance,
Julian Blechner.
On Wed, May 22, 2024, 12:16 PM Richard Fischer via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi Maia,
I have no claim to expertise, but I'm with you. In dances where the
Petronella claps don't interfere with anything, why not? Dancers enjoy it,
and it can often be one of the first things new dancers notice about
unified timing. I'm not sure how it originated, but since the move
previously was often spin first then a satisfying balance, maybe the claps
were a way to still have that nice rhythmic end to the phrase. In any
event, why should a caller tell a hall full of dancers they're wrong?
With best wishes,
Richard Fischer
Arlington, MA
On May 22, 2024, at 11:49 AM, Maia McCormick via
Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
tldr: those of you who are anti-Petronella claps (in general, not just in
specific cases where they interrupt flow from the spin into the next move),
I want to understand why!
Clapping on Petronella turns has been the overwhelming norm ever since I
started dancing, but I know that it wasn't always this way, and that some
folks vehemently dislike it. Well recently I've noted the (baffling??
inexplicable??) rise of clapping after the spin on Rory O'Moore's, which
makes my blood boil (it's so satisfying to catch hands in the new wave out
of the spin, why would you ever NOT do that??), and it's making me think
more about Petronella claps.
Clapping on a Rory bugs me so much because it interrupts the momentum of
spin-and-catch-hands. I'll admit that I don't understand the objection to
Petronella claps, at least through that lens. Like certainly, in a
specifically Cure for the Claps-type* dance (with e.g. Petronella spin into
allemande left, Petronella spin into swing, etc.), clapping interrupts the
momentum, and it's way more satisfying to spin directly into the next move.
But given a bog standard "Petronella, Petronella, balance and swing" or
similar, I don't feel like the claps interrupt the momentum or disrupt
transitions, and in fact are a nice fun way to fill space.
To be clear, the above isn't an argument in favor of Petronella claps, just
me explaining where I'm coming from. So now we come to my question:
1. those of you who are anti-Petronella claps, can you explain why? I want
to understand! Is it a satisfying momentum thing that I've just never
experienced because I'm so used to clapping? Dedication to historical
accuracy? Something else entirely?
2. what dance(s) would you use to make your case to a contemporary contra
hall, that aren't explicitly written as Cure for the Claps dances?
Petronella spin to a swing feels great, and of course you shouldn't clap
there (although some folks inexplicably do, sigh)—but if you'd prefer that
we didn't clap even in a dance like Tica Tica Timing, then a CftC dance
isn't the whole story. If you had the infinite good will of a contemporary
contra hall, and were able to say to the dancers "don't clap on the
Petronellas in this one and just pay attention to how nice it feels to X
and how satisfying it is to Y", what dance would you use, what things would
you tell the dancers to clue into, etc. to make your case? (And what would
you ask the band for?)
Thanks as always for your expertise!
Cheers,
Maia
* Cure for the Claps contra: a dance that discourages clapping during the
Petronella turn, often by putting moves directly after the Petronella that
flow nicely from a spin. May be intentional or incidental. See e.g.: The
Cure for the Claps (Bob Isaacs), Becket in the Kitchen (Becky Hill)
--Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
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5:24 p.m.
Petronella & The Clap. I’m a dancer who grew up with Petronella and Rory O’More as
local stable in David Woodsfellow calling. (I find it funny when callers say, “as in
Petronella,” or, “as in Rory O’More,” and look around and think there’s only one or two in
the hall that have dance either.) David was our main caller in Santa Barbara and my
introduction and teacher to Contra Dancing until David moved away and I started calling in
1985. Thus the clap has me thinking of the evolution of folk arts. In Beth Tolman &
Ralph Page’s book he introduces Patronella as a dance where the active couple really
showed off their virtuosity by their fancy footwork. He does describe it as an only the
active couple is doing the “turn & balance.” (I’m using the now archaic labels actives
& inactives as this dance was very unequal and those were the common terms of the
time.)
By the time we were dancing Petronella it had turned into actives and inactives joined in
a square and the whole set was doing the turn & balance. And we did spend time
learning to do fancy balances from a step-swing step-swing with feet swinging up to
shoulders or fancy percussive footwork striving to impress other dancers and getting asked
to teach such footwork. Then those of us able would spin around twice or daringly three
times to have our hands join in those rings right on the beat. It was exhilarating.’
Thus when dancers got infected with the clap virus, I watched interest in fancy footwork
disappear. Thus I didn’t like the clap: to me it was a de-evolution of the dance. But when
I told an upcoming caller that we should demonstrate good dancing and not do the clap he
replied, “But I like it!” I realized we lost something when we gained the clap.
So, I accept it, the clap, and know it’s fun, though I still don’t clap My body no longer
lets me spin three times around and my fancy footwork isn’t as fancy as it once was. But I
still favor my “Old Ways.”
On sound: as a musician, I object and even wrote an article about one person clapping down
the hall. Since when that sound gets back to the band the time delay getting to that
person and back to the band, it is no longer with the beat and I find that very
irritating. But when the whole hall is doing the clap, it loses that sound delay since
it’s more of a “smear.”
Erik Hoffman
Okland, CA
4:29 p.m.
Petronella claps interfere with my listening to the music
On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 10:50 AM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
tldr: those of you who are anti-Petronella claps (in
general, not just in
specific cases where they interrupt flow from the spin into the next move),
I want to understand why!
Clapping on Petronella turns has been the overwhelming norm ever since I
started dancing, but I know that it wasn't always this way, and that some
folks vehemently dislike it. Well recently I've noted the (baffling??
inexplicable??) rise of clapping after the spin on Rory O'Moore's, which
makes my blood boil (it's so satisfying to catch hands in the new wave out
of the spin, why would you ever NOT do that??), and it's making me think
more about Petronella claps.
Clapping on a Rory bugs me so much because it interrupts the momentum of
spin-and-catch-hands. I'll admit that I don't understand the objection to
Petronella claps, at least through that lens. Like certainly, in a
specifically Cure for the Claps-type* dance (with e.g. Petronella spin into
allemande left, Petronella spin into swing, etc.), clapping interrupts the
momentum, and it's way more satisfying to spin directly into the next move.
But given a bog standard "Petronella, Petronella, balance and swing" or
similar, I don't feel like the claps interrupt the momentum or disrupt
transitions, and in fact are a nice fun way to fill space.
To be clear, the above isn't an argument in favor of Petronella claps,
just me explaining where I'm coming from. So now we come to my question:
1. *those of you who are anti-Petronella claps, can you explain why?* I
want to understand! Is it a satisfying momentum thing that I've just never
experienced because I'm so used to clapping? Dedication to historical
accuracy? Something else entirely?
2. *what dance(s) would you use to make your case to a contemporary
contra hall, that aren't explicitly written as Cure for the Claps dances?*
Petronella
spin to a swing feels great, and of *course* you shouldn't clap there
(although some folks inexplicably do, sigh)—but if you'd prefer that we
didn't clap even in a dance like Tica Tica Timing, then a CftC dance isn't
the whole story. If you had the infinite good will of a contemporary contra
hall, and were able to say to the dancers "don't clap on the Petronellas in
this one and just pay attention to how nice it feels to X and how
satisfying it is to Y", what dance would you use, what things would you
tell the dancers to clue into, etc. to make your case? (And what would you
ask the band for?)
Thanks as always for your expertise!
Cheers,
Maia
* Cure for the Claps contra: a dance that discourages clapping during the
Petronella turn, often by putting moves directly after the Petronella that
flow nicely from a spin. May be intentional or incidental. See e.g.: The
Cure for the Claps
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=10364>
(Bob Isaacs), Becket in the Kitchen
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=17>
(Becky Hill)
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
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3:55 p.m.
I’ve gotten used to it over time, but clapping sometimes bugs me as both a
dancer and a caller. It isn’t the clapping itself, so much as the fact
that it almost always impacts the flow or execution of the next move to
some extent.
Here are a couple specific reasons they stick out to me, and possibly for
others as well:
First, as someone who is prone to dizziness in other circumstances (usually
not on the dance floor, thankfully) I always like to have hands joined
cleanly and predictably to provide/receive steadying support. Adding claps
can make securing that support less predictable.
Second, as someone with excellent hearing, lots of loud/unexpected clapping
can be distracting if not painful…especially if it is out of rhythm. I
personally prefer the physical reconnection of the circle to the auditory
percussion of the claps.
Third: In the past I often found that the clapping was “late,” especially
relative to the wind-up for a good circle balance. People would come to a
complete stop just to clap, leading to major impacts on flow in the dance.
I think this has shifted over time, and may have been regional, but first
impressions are hard to shake. People who encountered that are likely to
have strong opinions.
Finally (and this is completely personal), I come from a tradition with a
precision performance team. In that context we all learned to use and
reinforce the uniform team style at regular dances. Our contra styling was
minimalist, and double claps were not included. I’ve gotten used to them
now, but still default to thinking of the team style as my “normal.”
Anything that actively interferes with using it requires a conscious mental
shift to adapt to.
Hope that helps!
Neal Schlein
Librarian, MSLIS
On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 12:42 PM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
As a musician I'm generally pretty positive on
clapping, noisy balances,
whoops, and other noises from the hall -- it communicates that the dancers
are having fun and feeling the music!
Jeff
On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 2:35 PM Mac Mckeever via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I have heard that, especially in larger halls -
the time it takes for the
music to get to the dancers and then the clapping back to the band makes
the clapping out of time with what the band is trying to do and can be
annoying.
I am not sure I ever heard a musician say that
Mac
On Wednesday, May 22, 2024 at 12:58:48 PM CDT, Russell Frank via Contra
Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I’m no expert, but I was dancing back in the era when clapping was
frowned upon, and still often refrain from clapping. I can think of 2
reasons.
First, this was simply a case of the dancers doing a move differently
than the caller had taught it - and not just a few dancers occasionally,
but a lot of dancers every time. It must have been a bit of a shock.
Second, percussion from the hall is generally frowned upon, because it
covers, and could confuse the band. This may have been a problem back in
the day, although bands expect it and have no problem these days.
Russell, Monterey, CA
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On May 22, 2024, at 9:45 AM, Julian Blechner via
Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
John Sweeney hit on a big reason I'm baffled, in pointing out that the
balances in Petronella (the dance) are in the second half of a phrase. So
what's funny is that in the originally Petronella, it's
Spin spin spin pause
Stomp Stomp Stomp Stomp (or steps, but, still)
And in the modern move it's
Stomp Stomp Stomp stomp
Spin spin spin pause
So the originally Petronella had everyone making percussive noise on
that last
measure. And the modern move has people filling in that pause
with percussive sounds.
I've heard from people say "you need the beat or two to take hands" but
like, somehow that's not true with every other move where a move ends and
you need to join hands in a ring immediately - after a swing, bending a
line of four, turning to a new neighbor on a progression and readying for a
balance, etc.
My summation is it's just a preference.
And I notice when bands play chiller tunes for Petronella spins, fewer
people
clap, so...
...
Anyway, I also very much would love to hear any other explanations of
"clapping in Petronellas is wrong".
In dance,
Julian Blechner.
On Wed, May 22, 2024, 12:16 PM Richard Fischer via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> Hi Maia,
>
> I have no claim to expertise, but I'm with you. In dances where the
Petronella claps don't interfere with anything, why not? Dancers enjoy it,
and it can often be one of the first things new dancers notice about
unified timing. I'm not sure how it originated, but since the move
previously was often spin first then a satisfying balance, maybe the claps
were a way to still have that nice rhythmic end to the phrase. In any
event, why should a caller tell a hall full of dancers they're wrong?
>
> With best wishes,
>
> Richard Fischer
> Arlington, MA
>
>> On May 22, 2024, at 11:49 AM, Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>> tldr: those of you who are anti-Petronella claps (in general, not
just in
specific cases where they interrupt flow from the spin into the
next move), I want to understand why!
>>
>> Clapping on Petronella turns has been the overwhelming norm ever
since I
started dancing, but I know that it wasn't always this way, and
that some folks vehemently dislike it. Well recently I've noted the
(baffling?? inexplicable??) rise of clapping after the spin on Rory
O'Moore's, which makes my blood boil (it's so satisfying to catch hands in
the new wave out of the spin, why would you ever NOT do that??), and it's
making me think more about Petronella claps.
>>
>> Clapping on a Rory bugs me so much because it interrupts the momentum
of
spin-and-catch-hands. I'll admit that I don't understand the objection
to Petronella claps, at least through that lens. Like certainly, in a
specifically Cure for the Claps-type* dance (with e.g. Petronella spin into
allemande left, Petronella spin into swing, etc.), clapping interrupts the
momentum, and it's way more satisfying to spin directly into the next move.
But given a bog standard "Petronella, Petronella, balance and swing" or
similar, I don't feel like the claps interrupt the momentum or disrupt
transitions, and in fact are a nice fun way to fill space.
>>
>> To be clear, the above isn't an argument in favor of Petronella
claps,
just me explaining where I'm coming from. So now we come to my
question:
>>
>> 1. those of you who are anti-Petronella claps, can you explain why? I
want
to understand! Is it a satisfying momentum thing that I've just never
experienced because I'm so used to clapping? Dedication to historical
accuracy? Something else entirely?
>>
>> 2. what dance(s) would you use to make your case to a contemporary
contra
hall, that aren't explicitly written as Cure for the Claps
dances? Petronella spin to a swing feels great, and of course you shouldn't
clap there (although some folks inexplicably do, sigh)—but if you'd prefer
that we didn't clap even in a dance like Tica Tica Timing, then a CftC
dance isn't the whole story. If you had the infinite good will of a
contemporary contra hall, and were able to say to the dancers "don't clap
on the Petronellas in this one and just pay attention to how nice it feels
to X and how satisfying it is to Y", what dance would you use, what things
would you tell the dancers to clue into, etc. to make your case? (And what
would you ask the band for?)
>>
>> Thanks as always for your expertise!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Maia
>>
>> * Cure for the Claps contra: a dance that discourages clapping during
the
Petronella turn, often by putting moves directly after the Petronella
that flow nicely from a spin. May be intentional or incidental. See e.g.:
The Cure for the Claps (Bob Isaacs), Becket in the Kitchen (Becky Hill)
>>
>>
>> --
>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>> 917.279.8194
>> _______________________________________________
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to
contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to
contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
2:57 p.m.
I've been contradancing since 1986 and there was clapping on Petronella turns *then*,
and there were some people who were opposed to it, and I never knew why.
I think the arguments about acoustic latency and throwing the band off are good
explanations for why it's a bad idea to, say, clap along to the music while you're
out at the bottom, but makes very little sense for sharp punctuations.
I remember that we used to get everybody in the hall stomping at once on balances, and it
was kinda thrilling; I just about never hear that anymore. I like the claps because it
pulls the whole hall together. n(even though I myself will often snap my fingers rather
than clapping). It's contagious enough, too, that first-timers often pick it up
immediately without any instruction.
-- Alan
________________________________________
From: Joseph Erhard-Hudson via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2024 11:16 AM
To: Julian Blechner
Cc: Shared Weight Contra Callers
Subject: [Callers] Re: Cures for the Claps?
The justification I heard ~25 years ago, when resistance to the claps seemed even greater,
was that the acoustic latency in a long hall could put the band off kilter and it was a
matter of respect to them. To illustrate: in a hundred foot hall, from the time the band
plays a note, to the time the folks at the bottom clap in synchrony to when they’re
hearing it, to the time the band hears those claps in turn, is roughly 2/10 of a second.
My counter-arguments to that are, if everyone is clapping along the length of the hall
it’s going to be spread out anyway and not a singular percussive counterpoint; if you’re
going to argue that, you’d better admonish everyone to make totally silent balances too;
musicians from Bach at his organ console to the USC marching band have been dealing just
fine with acoustic latency issues; and we ain’t the high and mighty in our white tie suits
at the Vienna opera house.
I recently came back from a long hiatus and was surprised to hear claps in novel places,
such as punctuating the end of a hey. I’m delighted with that one: it means the dancers
are actually being mindful of the musical phrasing, and giving the hey its full due. It’s
a moment where everyone is perceivably dancing skillfully together. I’m with some others
in being a little annoyed by claps after Rory’s for all the reasons given, but I’m not
gonna scold or clutch my pearls over it. I just won’t participate or encourage. At most I
might share why I don’t do it myself. Where claps are consistent with musical phrasing and
don’t interfere with hand transitions, I’m always going to be in favor.
-Joseph
Sent from my phone which has some odd ideas about formatting sometimes.
On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 9:46 AM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers
<contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
wrote:
John Sweeney hit on a big reason I'm baffled, in pointing out that the balances in
Petronella (the dance) are in the second half of a phrase. So what's funny is that in
the originally Petronella, it's
Spin spin spin pause
Stomp Stomp Stomp Stomp (or steps, but, still)
And in the modern move it's
Stomp Stomp Stomp stomp
Spin spin spin pause
So the originally Petronella had everyone making percussive noise on that last measure.
And the modern move has people filling in that pause with percussive sounds.
I've heard from people say "you need the beat or two to take hands" but
like, somehow that's not true with every other move where a move ends and you need to
join hands in a ring immediately - after a swing, bending a line of four, turning to a new
neighbor on a progression and readying for a balance, etc.
My summation is it's just a preference.
And I notice when bands play chiller tunes for Petronella spins, fewer people clap,
so...
...
Anyway, I also very much would love to hear any other explanations of "clapping in
Petronellas is wrong".
In dance,
Julian Blechner.
On Wed, May 22, 2024, 12:16 PM Richard Fischer via Contra Callers
<contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
wrote:
Hi Maia,
I have no claim to expertise, but I'm with you. In dances where the Petronella claps
don't interfere with anything, why not? Dancers enjoy it, and it can often be one of
the first things new dancers notice about unified timing. I'm not sure how it
originated, but since the move previously was often spin first then a satisfying balance,
maybe the claps were a way to still have that nice rhythmic end to the phrase. In any
event, why should a caller tell a hall full of dancers they're wrong?
With best wishes,
Richard Fischer
Arlington, MA
On May 22, 2024, at 11:49 AM, Maia McCormick via Contra Callers
<contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
wrote:
tldr: those of you who are anti-Petronella claps (in general, not just in specific cases
where they interrupt flow from the spin into the next move), I want to understand why!
Clapping on Petronella turns has been the overwhelming norm ever since I started dancing,
but I know that it wasn't always this way, and that some folks vehemently dislike it.
Well recently I've noted the (baffling?? inexplicable??) rise of clapping after the
spin on Rory O'Moore's, which makes my blood boil (it's so satisfying to catch
hands in the new wave out of the spin, why would you ever NOT do that??), and it's
making me think more about Petronella claps.
Clapping on a Rory bugs me so much because it interrupts the momentum of
spin-and-catch-hands. I'll admit that I don't understand the objection to
Petronella claps, at least through that lens. Like certainly, in a specifically Cure for
the Claps-type* dance (with e.g. Petronella spin into allemande left, Petronella spin into
swing, etc.), clapping interrupts the momentum, and it's way more satisfying to spin
directly into the next move. But given a bog standard "Petronella, Petronella,
balance and swing" or similar, I don't feel like the claps interrupt the momentum
or disrupt transitions, and in fact are a nice fun way to fill space.
To be clear, the above isn't an argument in favor of Petronella claps, just me
explaining where I'm coming from. So now we come to my question:
1. those of you who are anti-Petronella claps, can you explain why? I want to understand!
Is it a satisfying momentum thing that I've just never experienced because I'm so
used to clapping? Dedication to historical accuracy? Something else entirely?
2. what dance(s) would you use to make your case to a contemporary contra hall, that
aren't explicitly written as Cure for the Claps dances? Petronella spin to a swing
feels great, and of course you shouldn't clap there (although some folks inexplicably
do, sigh)—but if you'd prefer that we didn't clap even in a dance like Tica Tica
Timing, then a CftC dance isn't the whole story. If you had the infinite good will of
a contemporary contra hall, and were able to say to the dancers "don't clap on
the Petronellas in this one and just pay attention to how nice it feels to X and how
satisfying it is to Y", what dance would you use, what things would you tell the
dancers to clue into, etc. to make your case? (And what would you ask the band for?)
Thanks as always for your expertise!
Cheers,
Maia
* Cure for the Claps contra: a dance that discourages clapping during the Petronella turn,
often by putting moves directly after the Petronella that flow nicely from a spin. May be
intentional or incidental. See e.g.: The Cure for the
Claps<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=103… (Bob
Isaacs), Becket in the
Kitchen<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=1… (Becky
Hill)
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
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2:41 p.m.
As a musician I'm generally pretty positive on clapping, noisy balances,
whoops, and other noises from the hall -- it communicates that the dancers
are having fun and feeling the music!
Jeff
On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 2:35 PM Mac Mckeever via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I have heard that, especially in larger halls - the
time it takes for the
music to get to the dancers and then the clapping back to the band makes
the clapping out of time with what the band is trying to do and can be
annoying.
I am not sure I ever heard a musician say that
Mac
On Wednesday, May 22, 2024 at 12:58:48 PM CDT, Russell Frank via Contra
Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I’m no expert, but I was dancing back in the era when clapping was frowned
upon, and still often refrain from clapping. I can think of 2 reasons.
First, this was simply a case of the dancers doing a move differently than
the caller had taught it - and not just a few dancers occasionally, but a
lot of dancers every time. It must have been a bit of a shock.
Second, percussion from the hall is generally frowned upon, because it
covers, and could confuse the band. This may have been a problem back in
the day, although bands expect it and have no problem these days.
Russell, Monterey, CA
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On May 22, 2024, at 9:45 AM, Julian Blechner via
Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
John Sweeney hit on a big reason I'm baffled, in pointing out that the
balances in Petronella (the dance) are in the second half of a phrase. So
what's funny is that in the originally Petronella, it's
Spin spin spin pause
Stomp Stomp Stomp Stomp (or steps, but, still)
And in the modern move it's
Stomp Stomp Stomp stomp
Spin spin spin pause
So the originally Petronella had everyone making percussive noise on
that last
measure. And the modern move has people filling in that pause
with percussive sounds.
I've heard from people say "you need the beat or two to take hands" but
like, somehow that's not true with every other move where a move ends and
you need to join hands in a ring immediately - after a swing, bending a
line of four, turning to a new neighbor on a progression and readying for a
balance, etc.
My summation is it's just a preference.
And I notice when bands play chiller tunes for Petronella spins, fewer
people
clap, so...
...
Anyway, I also very much would love to hear any other explanations of
"clapping in Petronellas is wrong".
In dance,
Julian Blechner.
On Wed, May 22, 2024, 12:16 PM Richard Fischer via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> Hi Maia,
>
> I have no claim to expertise, but I'm with you. In dances where the
Petronella claps don't interfere with anything, why not? Dancers enjoy it,
and it can often be one of the first things new dancers notice about
unified timing. I'm not sure how it originated, but since the move
previously was often spin first then a satisfying balance, maybe the claps
were a way to still have that nice rhythmic end to the phrase. In any
event, why should a caller tell a hall full of dancers they're wrong?
>
> With best wishes,
>
> Richard Fischer
> Arlington, MA
>
>> On May 22, 2024, at 11:49 AM, Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>> tldr: those of you who are anti-Petronella claps (in general, not just
in
specific cases where they interrupt flow from the spin into the next
move), I want to understand why!
>>
>> Clapping on Petronella turns has been the overwhelming norm ever since
I
started dancing, but I know that it wasn't always this way, and that some
folks vehemently dislike it. Well recently I've noted the (baffling??
inexplicable??) rise of clapping after the spin on Rory O'Moore's, which
makes my blood boil (it's so satisfying to catch hands in the new wave out
of the spin, why would you ever NOT do that??), and it's making me think
more about Petronella claps.
>>
>> Clapping on a Rory bugs me so much because it interrupts the momentum
of
spin-and-catch-hands. I'll admit that I don't understand the objection
to Petronella claps, at least through that lens. Like certainly, in a
specifically Cure for the Claps-type* dance (with e.g. Petronella spin into
allemande left, Petronella spin into swing, etc.), clapping interrupts the
momentum, and it's way more satisfying to spin directly into the next move.
But given a bog standard "Petronella, Petronella, balance and swing" or
similar, I don't feel like the claps interrupt the momentum or disrupt
transitions, and in fact are a nice fun way to fill space.
>>
>> To be clear, the above isn't an argument in favor of Petronella claps,
just me explaining where I'm coming from. So now we come to my question:
>>
>> 1. those of you who are anti-Petronella claps, can you explain why? I
want
to understand! Is it a satisfying momentum thing that I've just never
experienced because I'm so used to clapping? Dedication to historical
accuracy? Something else entirely?
>>
>> 2. what dance(s) would you use to make your case to a contemporary
contra
hall, that aren't explicitly written as Cure for the Claps
dances? Petronella spin to a swing feels great, and of course you shouldn't
clap there (although some folks inexplicably do, sigh)—but if you'd prefer
that we didn't clap even in a dance like Tica Tica Timing, then a CftC
dance isn't the whole story. If you had the infinite good will of a
contemporary contra hall, and were able to say to the dancers "don't clap
on the Petronellas in this one and just pay attention to how nice it feels
to X and how satisfying it is to Y", what dance would you use, what things
would you tell the dancers to clue into, etc. to make your case? (And what
would you ask the band for?)
>>
>> Thanks as always for your expertise!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Maia
>>
>> * Cure for the Claps contra: a dance that discourages clapping during
the
Petronella turn, often by putting moves directly after the Petronella
that flow nicely from a spin. May be intentional or incidental. See e.g.:
The Cure for the Claps (Bob Isaacs), Becket in the Kitchen (Becky Hill)
>>
>>
>> --
>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>> 917.279.8194
>> _______________________________________________
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to
contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to
contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
2:34 p.m.
I have heard that, especially in larger halls - the time it takes for the music to get to
the dancers and then the clapping back to the band makes the clapping out of time with
what the band is trying to do and can be annoying.
I am not sure I ever heard a musician say that
Mac
On Wednesday, May 22, 2024 at 12:58:48 PM CDT, Russell Frank via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I’m no expert, but I was dancing back in the era when clapping was frowned upon, and still
often refrain from clapping. I can think of 2 reasons.
First, this was simply a case of the dancers doing a move differently than the caller had
taught it - and not just a few dancers occasionally, but a lot of dancers every time. It
must have been a bit of a shock.
Second, percussion from the hall is generally frowned upon, because it covers, and could
confuse the band. This may have been a problem back in the day, although bands expect it
and have no problem these days.
Russell, Monterey, CA
On May 22, 2024, at 9:45 AM, Julian Blechner via
Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
John Sweeney hit on a big reason I'm baffled, in pointing out that the balances in
Petronella (the dance) are in the second half of a phrase. So what's funny is that in
the originally Petronella, it's
Spin spin spin pause
Stomp Stomp Stomp Stomp (or steps, but, still)
And in the modern move it's
Stomp Stomp Stomp stomp
Spin spin spin pause
So the originally Petronella had everyone making percussive noise on that last measure.
And the modern move has people filling in that pause with percussive sounds.
I've heard from people say "you need the beat or two to take hands" but
like, somehow that's not true with every other move where a move ends and you need to
join hands in a ring immediately - after a swing, bending a line of four, turning to a new
neighbor on a progression and readying for a balance, etc.
My summation is it's just a preference.
And I notice when bands play chiller tunes for Petronella spins, fewer people clap,
so...
...
Anyway, I also very much would love to hear any other explanations of "clapping in
Petronellas is wrong".
In dance,
Julian Blechner.
On Wed, May 22, 2024, 12:16 PM Richard Fischer via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
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Hi Maia,
I have no claim to expertise, but I'm with you. In dances where the Petronella claps
don't interfere with anything, why not? Dancers enjoy it, and it can often be one of
the first things new dancers notice about unified timing. I'm not sure how it
originated, but since the move previously was often spin first then a satisfying balance,
maybe the claps were a way to still have that nice rhythmic end to the phrase. In any
event, why should a caller tell a hall full of dancers they're wrong?
With best wishes,
Richard Fischer
Arlington, MA
_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net On May 22, 2024, at 11:49 AM, Maia McCormick via
Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
tldr: those of you who are anti-Petronella claps (in general, not just in specific cases
where they interrupt flow from the spin into the next move), I want to understand why!
Clapping on Petronella turns has been the overwhelming norm ever since I started dancing,
but I know that it wasn't always this way, and that some folks vehemently dislike it.
Well recently I've noted the (baffling?? inexplicable??) rise of clapping after the
spin on Rory O'Moore's, which makes my blood boil (it's so satisfying to catch
hands in the new wave out of the spin, why would you ever NOT do that??), and it's
making me think more about Petronella claps.
Clapping on a Rory bugs me so much because it interrupts the momentum of
spin-and-catch-hands. I'll admit that I don't understand the objection to
Petronella claps, at least through that lens. Like certainly, in a specifically Cure for
the Claps-type* dance (with e.g. Petronella spin into allemande left, Petronella spin into
swing, etc.), clapping interrupts the momentum, and it's way more satisfying to spin
directly into the next move. But given a bog standard "Petronella, Petronella,
balance and swing" or similar, I don't feel like the claps interrupt the momentum
or disrupt transitions, and in fact are a nice fun way to fill space.
To be clear, the above isn't an argument in favor of Petronella claps, just me
explaining where I'm coming from. So now we come to my question:
1. those of you who are anti-Petronella claps, can you explain why? I want to understand!
Is it a satisfying momentum thing that I've just never experienced because I'm so
used to clapping? Dedication to historical accuracy? Something else entirely?
2. what dance(s) would you use to make your case to a contemporary contra hall, that
aren't explicitly written as Cure for the Claps dances? Petronella spin to a swing
feels great, and of course you shouldn't clap there (although some folks inexplicably
do, sigh)—but if you'd prefer that we didn't clap even in a dance like Tica Tica
Timing, then a CftC dance isn't the whole story. If you had the infinite good will of
a contemporary contra hall, and were able to say to the dancers "don't clap on
the Petronellas in this one and just pay attention to how nice it feels to X and how
satisfying it is to Y", what dance would you use, what things would you tell the
dancers to clue into, etc. to make your case? (And what would you ask the band for?)
Thanks as always for your expertise!
Cheers,
Maia
* Cure for the Claps contra: a dance that discourages clapping during the Petronella
turn, often by putting moves directly after the Petronella that flow nicely from a spin.
May be intentional or incidental. See e.g.: The Cure for the Claps (Bob Isaacs), Becket
in the Kitchen (Becky Hill)
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
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2:16 p.m.
The justification I heard ~25 years ago, when resistance to the claps
seemed even greater, was that the acoustic latency in a long hall could put
the band off kilter and it was a matter of respect to them. To illustrate:
in a hundred foot hall, from the time the band plays a note, to the time
the folks at the bottom clap in synchrony to when they’re hearing it, to
the time the band hears those claps in turn, is roughly 2/10 of a second.
My counter-arguments to that are, if everyone is clapping along the length
of the hall it’s going to be spread out anyway and not a singular
percussive counterpoint; if you’re going to argue that, you’d better
admonish everyone to make totally silent balances too; musicians from Bach
at his organ console to the USC marching band have been dealing just fine
with acoustic latency issues; and we ain’t the high and mighty in our white
tie suits at the Vienna opera house.
I recently came back from a long hiatus and was surprised to hear claps in
novel places, such as punctuating the end of a hey. I’m delighted with that
one: it means the dancers are actually being mindful of the musical
phrasing, and giving the hey its full due. It’s a moment where everyone is
perceivably dancing skillfully together. I’m with some others in being a
little annoyed by claps after Rory’s for all the reasons given, but I’m not
gonna scold or clutch my pearls over it. I just won’t participate or
encourage. At most I might share why I don’t do it myself. Where claps are
consistent with musical phrasing and don’t interfere with hand transitions,
I’m always going to be in favor.
-Joseph
*Sent from my phone which has some odd ideas about formatting sometimes.*
On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 9:46 AM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
John Sweeney hit on a big reason I'm baffled, in
pointing out that the
balances in Petronella (the dance) are in the second half of a phrase. So
what's funny is that in the originally Petronella, it's
Spin spin spin pause
Stomp Stomp Stomp Stomp (or steps, but, still)
And in the modern move it's
Stomp Stomp Stomp stomp
Spin spin spin pause
So the originally Petronella had everyone making percussive noise on that
last measure. And the modern move has people filling in that pause with
percussive sounds.
I've heard from people say "you need the beat or two to take hands" but
like, somehow that's not true with every other move where a move ends and
you need to join hands in a ring immediately - after a swing, bending a
line of four, turning to a new neighbor on a progression and readying for a
balance, etc.
My summation is it's just a preference.
And I notice when bands play chiller tunes for Petronella spins, fewer
people clap, so...
...
Anyway, I also very much would love to hear any other explanations of
"clapping in Petronellas is wrong".
In dance,
Julian Blechner.
On Wed, May 22, 2024, 12:16 PM Richard Fischer via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi Maia,
I have no claim to expertise, but I'm with you. In dances where the
Petronella claps don't interfere with anything, why not? Dancers enjoy it,
and it can often be one of the first things new dancers notice about
unified timing. I'm not sure how it originated, but since the move
previously was often spin first then a satisfying balance, maybe the claps
were a way to still have that nice rhythmic end to the phrase. In any
event, why should a caller tell a hall full of dancers they're wrong?
With best wishes,
Richard Fischer
Arlington, MA
On May 22, 2024, at 11:49 AM, Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
tldr: those of you who are anti-Petronella claps (in general, not just in
specific cases where they interrupt flow from the spin into the next move),
I want to understand why!
Clapping on Petronella turns has been the overwhelming norm ever since I
started dancing, but I know that it wasn't always this way, and that some
folks vehemently dislike it. Well recently I've noted the (baffling??
inexplicable??) rise of clapping after the spin on Rory O'Moore's, which
makes my blood boil (it's so satisfying to catch hands in the new wave out
of the spin, why would you ever NOT do that??), and it's making me think
more about Petronella claps.
Clapping on a Rory bugs me so much because it interrupts the momentum of
spin-and-catch-hands. I'll admit that I don't understand the objection to
Petronella claps, at least through that lens. Like certainly, in a
specifically Cure for the Claps-type* dance (with e.g. Petronella spin into
allemande left, Petronella spin into swing, etc.), clapping interrupts the
momentum, and it's way more satisfying to spin directly into the next move.
But given a bog standard "Petronella, Petronella, balance and swing" or
similar, I don't feel like the claps interrupt the momentum or disrupt
transitions, and in fact are a nice fun way to fill space.
To be clear, the above isn't an argument in favor of Petronella claps,
just me explaining where I'm coming from. So now we come to my question:
1. *those of you who are anti-Petronella claps, can you explain why?* I
want to understand! Is it a satisfying momentum thing that I've just never
experienced because I'm so used to clapping? Dedication to historical
accuracy? Something else entirely?
2. *what dance(s) would you use to make your case to a contemporary
contra hall, that aren't explicitly written as Cure for the Claps dances?*
Petronella
spin to a swing feels great, and of *course* you shouldn't clap there
(although some folks inexplicably do, sigh)—but if you'd prefer that we
didn't clap even in a dance like Tica Tica Timing, then a CftC dance isn't
the whole story. If you had the infinite good will of a contemporary contra
hall, and were able to say to the dancers "don't clap on the Petronellas in
this one and just pay attention to how nice it feels to X and how
satisfying it is to Y", what dance would you use, what things would you
tell the dancers to clue into, etc. to make your case? (And what would you
ask the band for?)
Thanks as always for your expertise!
Cheers,
Maia
* Cure for the Claps contra: a dance that discourages clapping during the
Petronella turn, often by putting moves directly after the Petronella that
flow nicely from a spin. May be intentional or incidental. See e.g.: The
Cure for the Claps
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=10364>
(Bob Isaacs), Becket in the Kitchen
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=17>
(Becky Hill)
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
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Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to
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2 p.m.
I’m no expert, but I was dancing back in the era when clapping was frowned upon, and still
often refrain from clapping. I can think of 2 reasons.
First, this was simply a case of the dancers doing a move differently than the caller had
taught it - and not just a few dancers occasionally, but a lot of dancers every time. It
must have been a bit of a shock.
Second, percussion from the hall is generally frowned upon, because it covers, and could
confuse the band. This may have been a problem back in the day, although bands expect it
and have no problem these days.
Russell, Monterey, CA
On May 22, 2024, at 9:45 AM, Julian Blechner via
Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
John Sweeney hit on a big reason I'm baffled, in pointing out that the balances in
Petronella (the dance) are in the second half of a phrase. So what's funny is that in
the originally Petronella, it's
Spin spin spin pause
Stomp Stomp Stomp Stomp (or steps, but, still)
And in the modern move it's
Stomp Stomp Stomp stomp
Spin spin spin pause
So the originally Petronella had everyone making percussive noise on that last measure.
And the modern move has people filling in that pause with percussive sounds.
I've heard from people say "you need the beat or two to take hands" but
like, somehow that's not true with every other move where a move ends and you need to
join hands in a ring immediately - after a swing, bending a line of four, turning to a new
neighbor on a progression and readying for a balance, etc.
My summation is it's just a preference.
And I notice when bands play chiller tunes for Petronella spins, fewer people clap, so...
...
Anyway, I also very much would love to hear any other explanations of "clapping in
Petronellas is wrong".
In dance,
Julian Blechner.
On Wed, May 22, 2024, 12:16 PM Richard Fischer via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Hi Maia,
I have no claim to expertise, but I'm with you. In dances where the Petronella claps
don't interfere with anything, why not? Dancers enjoy it, and it can often be one of
the first things new dancers notice about unified timing. I'm not sure how it
originated, but since the move previously was often spin first then a satisfying balance,
maybe the claps were a way to still have that nice rhythmic end to the phrase. In any
event, why should a caller tell a hall full of dancers they're wrong?
With best wishes,
Richard Fischer
Arlington, MA
_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net On May 22, 2024, at 11:49 AM, Maia McCormick via
Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
tldr: those of you who are anti-Petronella claps (in general, not just in specific cases
where they interrupt flow from the spin into the next move), I want to understand why!
Clapping on Petronella turns has been the overwhelming norm ever since I started dancing,
but I know that it wasn't always this way, and that some folks vehemently dislike it.
Well recently I've noted the (baffling?? inexplicable??) rise of clapping after the
spin on Rory O'Moore's, which makes my blood boil (it's so satisfying to catch
hands in the new wave out of the spin, why would you ever NOT do that??), and it's
making me think more about Petronella claps.
Clapping on a Rory bugs me so much because it interrupts the momentum of
spin-and-catch-hands. I'll admit that I don't understand the objection to
Petronella claps, at least through that lens. Like certainly, in a specifically Cure for
the Claps-type* dance (with e.g. Petronella spin into allemande left, Petronella spin into
swing, etc.), clapping interrupts the momentum, and it's way more satisfying to spin
directly into the next move. But given a bog standard "Petronella, Petronella,
balance and swing" or similar, I don't feel like the claps interrupt the momentum
or disrupt transitions, and in fact are a nice fun way to fill space.
To be clear, the above isn't an argument in favor of Petronella claps, just me
explaining where I'm coming from. So now we come to my question:
1. those of you who are anti-Petronella claps, can you explain why? I want to understand!
Is it a satisfying momentum thing that I've just never experienced because I'm so
used to clapping? Dedication to historical accuracy? Something else entirely?
2. what dance(s) would you use to make your case to a contemporary contra hall, that
aren't explicitly written as Cure for the Claps dances? Petronella spin to a swing
feels great, and of course you shouldn't clap there (although some folks inexplicably
do, sigh)—but if you'd prefer that we didn't clap even in a dance like Tica Tica
Timing, then a CftC dance isn't the whole story. If you had the infinite good will of
a contemporary contra hall, and were able to say to the dancers "don't clap on
the Petronellas in this one and just pay attention to how nice it feels to X and how
satisfying it is to Y", what dance would you use, what things would you tell the
dancers to clue into, etc. to make your case? (And what would you ask the band for?)
Thanks as always for your expertise!
Cheers,
Maia
* Cure for the Claps contra: a dance that discourages clapping during the Petronella
turn, often by putting moves directly after the Petronella that flow nicely from a spin.
May be intentional or incidental. See e.g.: The Cure for the Claps
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=10364> (Bob Isaacs),
Becket in the Kitchen
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=17> (Becky Hill)
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
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<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
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<mailto:contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
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<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
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<mailto:contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net> 
12:45 p.m.
John Sweeney hit on a big reason I'm baffled, in pointing out that the
balances in Petronella (the dance) are in the second half of a phrase. So
what's funny is that in the originally Petronella, it's
Spin spin spin pause
Stomp Stomp Stomp Stomp (or steps, but, still)
And in the modern move it's
Stomp Stomp Stomp stomp
Spin spin spin pause
So the originally Petronella had everyone making percussive noise on that
last measure. And the modern move has people filling in that pause with
percussive sounds.
I've heard from people say "you need the beat or two to take hands" but
like, somehow that's not true with every other move where a move ends and
you need to join hands in a ring immediately - after a swing, bending a
line of four, turning to a new neighbor on a progression and readying for a
balance, etc.
My summation is it's just a preference.
And I notice when bands play chiller tunes for Petronella spins, fewer
people clap, so...
...
Anyway, I also very much would love to hear any other explanations of
"clapping in Petronellas is wrong".
In dance,
Julian Blechner.
On Wed, May 22, 2024, 12:16 PM Richard Fischer via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi Maia,
I have no claim to expertise, but I'm with you. In dances where the
Petronella claps don't interfere with anything, why not? Dancers enjoy it,
and it can often be one of the first things new dancers notice about
unified timing. I'm not sure how it originated, but since the move
previously was often spin first then a satisfying balance, maybe the claps
were a way to still have that nice rhythmic end to the phrase. In any
event, why should a caller tell a hall full of dancers they're wrong?
With best wishes,
Richard Fischer
Arlington, MA
On May 22, 2024, at 11:49 AM, Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
tldr: those of you who are anti-Petronella claps (in general, not just in
specific cases where they interrupt flow from the spin into the next move),
I want to understand why!
Clapping on Petronella turns has been the overwhelming norm ever since I
started dancing, but I know that it wasn't always this way, and that some
folks vehemently dislike it. Well recently I've noted the (baffling??
inexplicable??) rise of clapping after the spin on Rory O'Moore's, which
makes my blood boil (it's so satisfying to catch hands in the new wave out
of the spin, why would you ever NOT do that??), and it's making me think
more about Petronella claps.
Clapping on a Rory bugs me so much because it interrupts the momentum of
spin-and-catch-hands. I'll admit that I don't understand the objection to
Petronella claps, at least through that lens. Like certainly, in a
specifically Cure for the Claps-type* dance (with e.g. Petronella spin into
allemande left, Petronella spin into swing, etc.), clapping interrupts the
momentum, and it's way more satisfying to spin directly into the next move.
But given a bog standard "Petronella, Petronella, balance and swing" or
similar, I don't feel like the claps interrupt the momentum or disrupt
transitions, and in fact are a nice fun way to fill space.
To be clear, the above isn't an argument in favor of Petronella claps,
just me explaining where I'm coming from. So now we come to my question:
1. *those of you who are anti-Petronella claps, can you explain why?* I
want to understand! Is it a satisfying momentum thing that I've just never
experienced because I'm so used to clapping? Dedication to historical
accuracy? Something else entirely?
2. *what dance(s) would you use to make your case to a contemporary
contra hall, that aren't explicitly written as Cure for the Claps dances?*
Petronella
spin to a swing feels great, and of *course* you shouldn't clap there
(although some folks inexplicably do, sigh)—but if you'd prefer that we
didn't clap even in a dance like Tica Tica Timing, then a CftC dance isn't
the whole story. If you had the infinite good will of a contemporary contra
hall, and were able to say to the dancers "don't clap on the Petronellas in
this one and just pay attention to how nice it feels to X and how
satisfying it is to Y", what dance would you use, what things would you
tell the dancers to clue into, etc. to make your case? (And what would you
ask the band for?)
Thanks as always for your expertise!
Cheers,
Maia
* Cure for the Claps contra: a dance that discourages clapping during the
Petronella turn, often by putting moves directly after the Petronella that
flow nicely from a spin. May be intentional or incidental. See e.g.: The
Cure for the Claps
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=10364>
(Bob Isaacs), Becket in the Kitchen
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=17>
(Becky Hill)
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
12:15 p.m.
Hi Maia,
I have no claim to expertise, but I'm with you. In dances where the Petronella claps
don't interfere with anything, why not? Dancers enjoy it, and it can often be one of
the first things new dancers notice about unified timing. I'm not sure how it
originated, but since the move previously was often spin first then a satisfying balance,
maybe the claps were a way to still have that nice rhythmic end to the phrase. In any
event, why should a caller tell a hall full of dancers they're wrong?
With best wishes,
Richard Fischer
Arlington, MA
On May 22, 2024, at 11:49 AM, Maia McCormick via
Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
tldr: those of you who are anti-Petronella claps (in general, not just in specific cases
where they interrupt flow from the spin into the next move), I want to understand why!
Clapping on Petronella turns has been the overwhelming norm ever since I started dancing,
but I know that it wasn't always this way, and that some folks vehemently dislike it.
Well recently I've noted the (baffling?? inexplicable??) rise of clapping after the
spin on Rory O'Moore's, which makes my blood boil (it's so satisfying to catch
hands in the new wave out of the spin, why would you ever NOT do that??), and it's
making me think more about Petronella claps.
Clapping on a Rory bugs me so much because it interrupts the momentum of
spin-and-catch-hands. I'll admit that I don't understand the objection to
Petronella claps, at least through that lens. Like certainly, in a specifically Cure for
the Claps-type* dance (with e.g. Petronella spin into allemande left, Petronella spin into
swing, etc.), clapping interrupts the momentum, and it's way more satisfying to spin
directly into the next move. But given a bog standard "Petronella, Petronella,
balance and swing" or similar, I don't feel like the claps interrupt the momentum
or disrupt transitions, and in fact are a nice fun way to fill space.
To be clear, the above isn't an argument in favor of Petronella claps, just me
explaining where I'm coming from. So now we come to my question:
1. those of you who are anti-Petronella claps, can you explain why? I want to understand!
Is it a satisfying momentum thing that I've just never experienced because I'm so
used to clapping? Dedication to historical accuracy? Something else entirely?
2. what dance(s) would you use to make your case to a contemporary contra hall, that
aren't explicitly written as Cure for the Claps dances? Petronella spin to a swing
feels great, and of course you shouldn't clap there (although some folks inexplicably
do, sigh)—but if you'd prefer that we didn't clap even in a dance like Tica Tica
Timing, then a CftC dance isn't the whole story. If you had the infinite good will of
a contemporary contra hall, and were able to say to the dancers "don't clap on
the Petronellas in this one and just pay attention to how nice it feels to X and how
satisfying it is to Y", what dance would you use, what things would you tell the
dancers to clue into, etc. to make your case? (And what would you ask the band for?)
Thanks as always for your expertise!
Cheers,
Maia
* Cure for the Claps contra: a dance that discourages clapping during the Petronella
turn, often by putting moves directly after the Petronella that flow nicely from a spin.
May be intentional or incidental. See e.g.: The Cure for the Claps
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=10364> (Bob Isaacs),
Becket in the Kitchen
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=17> (Becky Hill)
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
12:01 p.m.
HI Maia,
“Dedication to historical accuracy?”
No, it can’t be that since the current move bears no resemblance to the
historical move!
It always seem strange to me that people who accept that the Petronella has been changed
from the original Petronella in these ways:
- four people active instead of two,
- holding hands instead of alone,
- balancing before instead of after,
that these people can’t accept a further change of adding clapping!
It always make me smile when callers say, “As in the dance Petronella” – because it
really, really isn’t!
https://www.scottish-country-dancing-dictionary.com/video/petronella.html
I love the clapping when it fits – the whole room working together is
wonderful. The best reason I have heard for not doing it in a sequence like “Petronella
then Swing” is that, if you do clap, then you are saying to the person you are Swinging,
“Wait a minute; I would rather clap than spend more time Swinging with you!”. I would
rather Swing!
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
From: Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Sent: 22 May 2024 16:50
To: Shared Weight Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Subject: [Callers] Cures for the Claps?
tldr: those of you who are anti-Petronella claps (in general, not just in specific cases
where they interrupt flow from the spin into the next move), I want to understand why!
Clapping on Petronella turns has been the overwhelming norm ever since I started dancing,
but I know that it wasn't always this way, and that some folks vehemently dislike it.
Well recently I've noted the (baffling?? inexplicable??) rise of clapping after the
spin on Rory O'Moore's, which makes my blood boil (it's so satisfying to catch
hands in the new wave out of the spin, why would you ever NOT do that??), and it's
making me think more about Petronella claps.
Clapping on a Rory bugs me so much because it interrupts the momentum of
spin-and-catch-hands. I'll admit that I don't understand the objection to
Petronella claps, at least through that lens. Like certainly, in a specifically Cure for
the Claps-type* dance (with e.g. Petronella spin into allemande left, Petronella spin into
swing, etc.), clapping interrupts the momentum, and it's way more satisfying to spin
directly into the next move. But given a bog standard "Petronella, Petronella,
balance and swing" or similar, I don't feel like the claps interrupt the momentum
or disrupt transitions, and in fact are a nice fun way to fill space.
To be clear, the above isn't an argument in favor of Petronella claps, just me
explaining where I'm coming from. So now we come to my question:
1. those of you who are anti-Petronella claps, can you explain why? I want to understand!
Is it a satisfying momentum thing that I've just never experienced because I'm so
used to clapping? Dedication to historical accuracy? Something else entirely?
2. what dance(s) would you use to make your case to a contemporary contra hall, that
aren't explicitly written as Cure for the Claps dances? Petronella spin to a swing
feels great, and of course you shouldn't clap there (although some folks inexplicably
do, sigh)—but if you'd prefer that we didn't clap even in a dance like Tica Tica
Timing, then a CftC dance isn't the whole story. If you had the infinite good will of
a contemporary contra hall, and were able to say to the dancers "don't clap on
the Petronellas in this one and just pay attention to how nice it feels to X and how
satisfying it is to Y", what dance would you use, what things would you tell the
dancers to clue into, etc. to make your case? (And what would you ask the band for?)
Thanks as always for your expertise!
Cheers,
Maia
* Cure for the Claps contra: a dance that discourages clapping during the Petronella turn,
often by putting moves directly after the Petronella that flow nicely from a spin. May be
intentional or incidental. See e.g.: The Cure for the Claps
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=10364> (Bob
Isaacs), Becket in the Kitchen
<https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=17> (Becky Hill)
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
181
days inactive
183
days old
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
19 comments
17 participants
participants (17)
-
David Chandler -
Erik Hoffman -
Gloria Krusemeyer -
Jeff Kaufman -
John Sweeney -
Joseph Erhard-Hudson -
Julian Blechner -
Koren A. Wake -
Mac Mckeever -
Maia McCormick -
Michael Barraclough -
Neal Schlein -
Peter Foster -
Richard Fischer -
Russell Frank -
sjapartments＠gmail.com -
Winston, Alan P.