A kind of "clapping" I like a lot on Rory O'Mores is when you balance right and left, slide right, and then on beats "7" and "8" you percussively (but without so much force that you hurt anyone!) connect hands in the new wave with first your left hand and then your right.  And the left/right reverse when sliding back.  It's a nice bit of connection, though it does require good timing.

(This is different from clapping your own hands together on beats "7-and" and "8", petronella-style)

Jeff

On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 2:30 PM Koren A. Wake via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
As a dancer, I usually prefer not to clap myself, but I usually don't mind if other people clap for normal Petronellas. As a caller, I usually tell the dancers that claps are optional, but when it's a cure-for-the-claps type dance I do strongly encourage them not to clap and I point out how the spin is designed to flow directly into the next move. In those cases, I also usually ask the musicians to play smoother music so that the music doesn't encourage clapping. And as a musician, I actually love when I can predict when the dancers will clap, and can play with that (breaks, etc.).

In Seattle we've had a recent trend of some dancers expanding the Petronella claps - deliberately clapping early or late or on off-beats (but still rhythmic, just playing with expectations), to the point where sometimes you can hear clapping on every beat throughout the move, even if every individual dancer is only doing two claps. It's fun as a novelty (even though it breaks the circle connection even more), and I do occasionally participate, but only if the dance is otherwise very simple, and only if the music seems to want it. I've seen that kind of thing come and go in other scenes before, too, so I'm not too worried about it taking over as an all-the-time thing.

All of that said, I completely agree with Maia that (a) clapping on Rory O'More moves (and box circulates!) is trending up, and also (b) in my opinion this is basically ALWAYS bad because it basically ALWAYS detracts from reconnecting to the new wave in time to redirect into a satisfying balance. One of the workshop ideas that I've been developing is on wavy line balances and connections, and I think this is one of the points that I'll try to hit!

To answer Maia's original question, I can absolutely see how that "it's always bad because it detracts from reconnecting" opinion could also apply to Petronellas in exactly the same way. I would posit that by now we are so used to the claps in that specific context, that we don't think about how much less rushed the connect-and-balance action could be if we instead actively reconnected before we balance the ring again. I suspect that's the root of the curmudgeonliness of some (or most?) of the folks who object to claps on principal - many of them may be long-time dancers who do remember what we're missing.

And on the other hand, I would also argue that since I define a balance (generally) as two steps together to create a compression connection that peaks on beat 2 (followed by two steps apart to create a tension connection that peaks on beat 4, to be ready to spring into whatever comes next), it doesn't actually matter whether your hands are connected before beat 1 unless you need tension before beat 1 to help you get into the balance together on one and two (as in Rory waves, where you need to stop & redirect your outward momentum so that you can begin to balance together). Whereas when you're reconnecting in a Petronella circle, or going into a regular balance and swing, you generally don't have so much momentum from the spin that you need the new connection in order to redirect into the balance. In those cases I think it's fine to just start moving towards each other on 1, as long as you have that compression connection by the time beat 2 arrives.

OK I have definitely rambled enough here! Hope any of this is useful and/or food for thought.

Koren Wake
(Seattle WA, dancer, caller, musician)

On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 9:36 AM David Chandler via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
As a very old dancer, I have 2 objections to the clap:
1. I enjoy flow and slight changes in momentum. I can't think of a sequence off-hand where there isn't at least a slight pause and change in momentum caused by clapping. If balance and swing is the next move, instead of turning directly to one's partner and getting the balance underway, one pauses for a second to smile at one's neighbors after such a satisfying moment, and to think about what comes next. With other sequences the disruption is more marked - I dislike standing ready to take hands and circle while others are clapping. Etc. There is no way an action that requires stopping movement and standing in one place can not interfere with what comes next - I assume that most people enjoy clapping more than momentum. I understand your feeling about clapping in a Rory, but assume that the clapping will spread and become universal for that as well. Different strokes...
2. People learn the clap by osmosis, so everyone claps for everything, whether it is disruptive to the next move or not (if one assumes it can not be disruptive). If dancers were experienced enough to think about what they are doing, so they only did it when the effect was minimal, that would be marginally better - but they aren't, for the most part.

It is a lost cause. I can't imagine what could make clapping stop once it starts - but we'll see. Perhaps clapping will spread to so many points in the dance (after heys!) that everyone says, "Enough already!" and agrees to ban clapping. Or dancing will just be different, changed as it has been so many times in the past.

Curmudgeonly yours,
David

On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 11:50 AM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
tldr: those of you who are anti-Petronella claps (in general, not just in specific cases where they interrupt flow from the spin into the next move), I want to understand why!

Clapping on Petronella turns has been the overwhelming norm ever since I started dancing, but I know that it wasn't always this way, and that some folks vehemently dislike it. Well recently I've noted the (baffling?? inexplicable??) rise of clapping after the spin on Rory O'Moore's, which makes my blood boil (it's so satisfying to catch hands in the new wave out of the spin, why would you ever NOT do that??), and it's making me think more about Petronella claps.

Clapping on a Rory bugs me so much because it interrupts the momentum of spin-and-catch-hands. I'll admit that I don't understand the objection to Petronella claps, at least through that lens. Like certainly, in a specifically Cure for the Claps-type* dance (with e.g. Petronella spin into allemande left, Petronella spin into swing, etc.), clapping interrupts the momentum, and it's way more satisfying to spin directly into the next move. But given a bog standard "Petronella, Petronella, balance and swing" or similar, I don't feel like the claps interrupt the momentum or disrupt transitions, and in fact are a nice fun way to fill space.

To be clear, the above isn't an argument in favor of Petronella claps, just me explaining where I'm coming from. So now we come to my question:

1. those of you who are anti-Petronella claps, can you explain why? I want to understand! Is it a satisfying momentum thing that I've just never experienced because I'm so used to clapping? Dedication to historical accuracy? Something else entirely?

2. what dance(s) would you use to make your case to a contemporary contra hall, that aren't explicitly written as Cure for the Claps dances? Petronella spin to a swing feels great, and of course you shouldn't clap there (although some folks inexplicably do, sigh)—but if you'd prefer that we didn't clap even in a dance like Tica Tica Timing, then a CftC dance isn't the whole story. If you had the infinite good will of a contemporary contra hall, and were able to say to the dancers "don't clap on the Petronellas in this one and just pay attention to how nice it feels to X and how satisfying it is to Y", what dance would you use, what things would you tell the dancers to clue into, etc. to make your case? (And what would you ask the band for?)

Thanks as always for your expertise!

Cheers,
Maia

* Cure for the Claps contra: a dance that discourages clapping during the Petronella turn, often by putting moves directly after the Petronella that flow nicely from a spin. May be intentional or incidental. See e.g.:  The Cure for the Claps (Bob Isaacs), Becket in the Kitchen (Becky Hill)


--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
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