Most of my experience with this comes from the ECD world rather than contra. That said... 1. As a caller, I teach to who is there regardless of how the dance is advertised. This means flexibility, ability to shift expectations, shift my program, work on my patience. Sometimes this means for a particular dance, from the mic I invite 'if you are new or struggled with the last dance, you'll have more fun watching this next one' and follow it by an easy dance. I may also need to encourage attitude adjustment if the 'advanced' dancers are being cranky (lots of ways to do this, not going to take the time right now). And, there are lots of ways to have an 'advanced' dance. Complicated choreography is one. Less teaching/prompting is another. Offering things such as (usually easy) no walk through dances is another. Relatively accessible dances with extra time to teach dancing well is another. 2. As organizers, what do you do to try and keep your advanced sessions... advanced? I'm with Julian on being against kicking people out. It is not the kind of community I want, can backfire in a big way, and make people really unhappy. I hadn't thought about the economic injustice aspect of it, so thanks for that. I'm also fine with having advanced dances. And the messaging needs to be super clear. I wouldn't use words like 'advanced' or 'experienced' but rather outline the skills needed and the expectations, e.g., comfort with the following figures (ability to just do them), ability to recover quickly, ability to learn quickly, ability to dance without prompting...whatever your group decides are the features for the dance. Perhaps say what will and won't be taught, one walkthrough only with rolling start... And not everyone will get the message. That's life. 3. As dancers (/organizers/callers), how do we elevate the dance level of our local communities? Practice kindness, teach/model attitude of 'mistakes are awesome - it's how you learn, it can lead to laughter if you let it', teach/model recovery skills. Add skills workshops into the mix. Fun for skilled, unskilled, experienced, inexperienced dancers. Can be a special session prior to dance (or the first X amount of time of a regular dance) or at a special time/place. Can be about figures, social skills, dancing well... In my mind, part of being an advanced dancer is the ability and joyful attitude to dance with anyone regardless of skill or expectation of why you came. That is another skill to teach. Brooke Friendly Ashland OR On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 12:42 PM jim saxe via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote:

[Somehow Ken Panton's reply to this thread ended up in a new email altogether. I want to reply to what he and others in this thread have shared, so I'll quote his text below mine in an effort to streamline.] "Novel Dances" like what Alan and Ken both speak about is actually my best answer to Maia's Q#3 about elevating community dance level. Start by letting your local community expect the unexpected from you — I usually start with dances where folks leave their minor set more often, but where the moves themselves are still fairly glossary. I also love dances with uncommon variations on common moves (circle right; gents right-hand chain) where the momentum of the dance helps dancers understand where to go next as they get into and out of the new/tricky part. There are so many skills to be learned in those dances around musicality, timing, transitions, and choreographic innovation, so let your dancers get comfortable with those ideas first! That said, I do not agree that *novel* choreography is the same as *advanced* choreography, and agree that more opportunities to call and dance challenging dances is valuable! It's also true that you need a *critical mass* of competent dancers to pull off a session focused on highly challenging choreo (interlocking orbits! contra corners! half a diagonal hey followed by a half-hey straight across! yum!!). This is why Flurry and NEFFA go great even with first-timers on the floor. I agree with Brooke's points about not kicking folks out. I think once dancers arrive, it's inappropriate to ask them to sit out or leave. This feels especially true when I think about very experienced dancers who struggle vs. brand-new dancers who pick up new information rapidly (surely we can all think of a few dancers that fit into each of these categories!), or even typically-competent dancers having an unusually difficult time (brain fog, festival sleep deprivation, anxiety, etc). Asking dancers to self-identify as "Advanced" or not is tricky, which is why I also strongly agree with Jeff's point about clear advertising and promotion. I like how the information he shared from the Concord Challenging Series offers ways for dancers to make their *best effort* to determine their skill level. Best Effort is Good Enough here because again, ultimately, *we don't actually need 100% of the dancers at a session like this to be 100% advanced.* We just need a critical mass (probably a clear majority?) of advanced dancers to show up. That's why I *really* liked this requirement from the Concord series: ** Assisting your partner and neighbor to the next move—while being friendly and welcoming to those who may be having trouble.* It sets the reasonable expectation that skill levels will always be mixed, even at a clearly-promoted advanced evening. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "K P &lt;kenwp1(a)gmail.com&gt;&quot; Hello all, > I appreciate the time it takes to thoughtfully respond to challenging > questions, and provide a variety of viewpoints. Thus, thanks for all the > thoughts on this question. > Something came to mind while reading the following paragraph late in > Alan's reply to the question: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: "Winston, Alan P." >> "Purely for callers dealing with the situation once it's happened >> already: I don't know if advanced contras are meant to be >> difficult/spatially-challenging etc contras. You could in general try to >> accommodate.a mixed level floor by trading complexity for novelty. Unusual >> figures equalize things for everybody (if nobody's used to a left-hand >> chain the beginners are at no disadvantage)." > My belief, which, I think, might differ from Alan's, is that "advanced" > dancers -- let's define that as those fluent (i.e. able to successfully and > happily enjoy a hash call) in a substantive set of glossary figures -- will > have, by osmosis, unavoidably developed a degree of "dance thinking", > musicality and spacial awareness. That includes an awareness of "the space > between" figures; i.e. the transitions. > So, I think that an advanced dancer does, in fact, have a leg up when > faced with a novelty figure, or anything new in the dance; they can and > will use their experience to help figure it out. (Unless, I guess, the > novelty figure is so far removed from anything previously encountered; "if > Einstein were a contradance choreographer and brought along a "quantum > figure", for example. Egads!) > Also, novelty, in my experience, can be hit-and-miss. From unexpected > bliss to eye-rolling hokiness. > To my mind, "dance thinking" somewhat analogous to "design thinking"; that > is, a way of thinking that guides the experienced practitioner in whatever > context the designer practices the craft. > From Alan's paragraph, therefore, I might change the suggestion of > "trading complexity for novelty" to "trading complexity of figures for > satisfying, perhaps novel, combinations". > Don't know if that's a useful observation. > I'm, otherwise, totally on-board with Alan's appreciation of a dance > session in which high levels of skill and trust are so concentrated (i.e. > ratio of adepts to novices) that magic can happen. > Three examples from my experience. > 1. An advanced dance weekend I attended, repeatedly, years ago which had a > "word of mouth, invite your skilled dance friends", form of recruitment. > The caller(s) knew the crowd could navigate through any hash thrown at them > in an hour-long marathon medley. (Yes, it's exclusionary. So is El Capitan > for climbers. Or uni courses with prerequisites.) > 2. The Flurry Festival in upstate New York. The synchronicity of 1000-ish > dancers, invariably including some novices, successfully flowing through > moderately challenging contras is a marvel and a delight. > 3. Similarly wonderful, though not quite as large -- due to space > limitations -- is the contra pavilion (Warren's Roadhouse!) at Seattle's > Folklife festival which, like the Flurry, would see a modicum of novice > dancers successfully assimilated into the Borg. > In dance, > Ken Panton > _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 7:19 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: > I just wanted to also say that I really like the additions Brooke > contributed. > Julian > Western Mass > On Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 4:23 PM Brooke Friendly < > brookefriendlydance(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>> Most of my experience with this comes from the ECD world rather than >> contra. That said... >>> 1. As a caller, I teach to who is there regardless of how the dance is >> advertised. This means flexibility, ability to shift expectations, shift my >> program, work on my patience. Sometimes this means for a particular dance, >> from the mic I invite 'if you are new or struggled with the last dance, >> you'll have more fun watching this next one' and follow it by an easy >> dance. I may also need to encourage attitude adjustment if the 'advanced' >> dancers are being cranky (lots of ways to do this, not going to take >> the time right now). And, there are lots of ways to have an 'advanced' >> dance. Complicated choreography is one. Less teaching/prompting is another. >> Offering things such as (usually easy) no walk through dances is another. >> Relatively accessible dances with extra time to teach dancing well is >> another. >>> 2. As organizers, what do you do to try and keep your advanced >> sessions... advanced? >> I'm with Julian on being against kicking people out. It is not the kind >> of community I want, can backfire in a big way, and make people really >> unhappy. I hadn't thought about the economic injustice aspect of it, so >> thanks for that. >> I'm also fine with having advanced dances. And the messaging needs to be >> super clear. I wouldn't use words like 'advanced' or 'experienced' but >> rather outline the skills needed and the expectations, e.g., comfort with >> the following figures (ability to just do them), ability to recover >> quickly, ability to learn quickly, ability to dance without >> prompting...whatever your group decides are the features for the dance. >> Perhaps say what will and won't be taught, one walkthrough only with >> rolling start... >> And not everyone will get the message. That's life. >>> 3. As dancers (/organizers/callers), how do we elevate the dance level of >> our local communities? >> Practice kindness, teach/model attitude of 'mistakes are awesome - it's >> how you learn, it can lead to laughter if you let it', teach/model recovery >> skills. >> Add skills workshops into the mix. Fun for skilled, unskilled, >> experienced, inexperienced dancers. Can be a special session prior to dance >> (or the first X amount of time of a regular dance) or at a special >> time/place. Can be about figures, social skills, dancing well... >> In my mind, part of being an advanced dancer is the ability and joyful >> attitude to dance with anyone regardless of skill or expectation of why you >> came. That is another skill to teach. >>> Brooke Friendly >> Ashland OR >>>> On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 12:42 PM jim saxe via Contra Callers < >> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>> You can hear some thoughts from sixty years ago relating to topics in >>> this thread in this recording of a 1962 Q&A session with the late great >>> square dance caller Ed Gilmore: >>>>> http://squaredancehistory.com/items/show/702 >>>>> You might start by listening for a few minutes beginning from 17:53. >>>>> The early MWSD scene that Ed was involved with had some differences from >>> our current contradance culture, including structure of clubs and classes >>> among other things, so some things Ed says may not translate directly. >>> Nonetheless, I believe Ed was a keen observer and an insightful thinker and >>> worthy of a listen. >>>>> --Jim >>> (Santa Clara, CA) >>>>> > On Apr 17, 2023, at 9:57 AM, Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < >>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>> >>> > I've given this some thought. I've been a dancer in this situation, >>> and heard other organizers ask this question. >>> >>> > I don't like the idea of asking someone to leave. I do think this is >>> antithetical to my values as a dance organizer. >>> >>> > I don't like the idea of gatekeeping and presuming I know how well a >>> person may succeed not - especially since contra is a team sport. >>> >>> > I also want to raise the idea of economic injustice - many folks >>> carpool, or, in NYC it may be a pain to get to a location - even by mass >>> transit a new person could really need the help of a friend. Especially if >>> it's a person from out of town; having lived in and around NYC for a >>> decade, it can be _daunting_. So I can totally see some experienced dancers >>> wanting to bring a friend, and having them come later is not an option. >>> Forcing them to come later may be easier for folks with financial means, >>> which is why I'm saying this may touch on an issue of economic justice and >>> privilege. >>> >>> > An alternative I might have - and, totally with the benefit of >>> hindsight and reflection: >>> >>> > I think if I'm in this situation in the future, I will do the >>> following: >>> > 1. Caution the dancer of the expected skill level. >>> > 2. Offer them to sit and enjoy the music for free / donation instead >>> of required entry fee. >>> > 3. Recommend that if they're set on trying it out, to do so, but if >>> they're not getting it, come hang out and stay, with fee refunded. (Like a >>> satisfaction guarantee.) >>> >>> > Ideally, if they do stay and sit, some dancers will need breaks and >>> sit with them and make them feel welcome. >>> >>> > In dance, >>> > Julian Blechner >>> >>> >>> >>> > On Sun, Apr 16, 2023, 9:50 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers < >>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>> > I attended an advanced dance this afternoon that was intermediate at >>> best, and had a few raw beginners in there, and it got me wondering: >>> >>> > 1. As callers, what do you do when a bunch of intermediate and/or >>> beginner dancers show up to an advanced session? >>> > 2. As organizers, what do you do to try and keep your advanced >>> sessions... advanced? (Either in messaging or at the dance itself?) >>> Obviously I'm not advocating for kicking anyone out, but if a bunch of >>> newbies show up at an advanced session, both they and the dancers who came >>> for gnarly stuff are going to have a less-than-ideal time. >>> > 3. As dancers (/organizers/callers), how do we elevate the dance level >>> of our local communities? I'm talking about increasing familiarity with >>> some of the less common moves (contracorners, left hand chains, etc.) but >>> also about building awareness of the dance and recovery skills, and >>> technical things like giving satisfying weight, swinging correctly, guiding >>> linemates into the next figure, etc. >>> >>> > I welcome any thoughts and musings! >>> >>> > Cheers, >>> > Maia (Brooklyn, NY) >>> > -- >>> > Maia McCormick (she/her) >>> > 917.279.8194 >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

Hi all, I agree with Julian completely. Asking someone to leave an "advanced dance" (or any dance) because they aren't "advanced" enough is so totally wrong. First of all you are asking folks to "self-assign" their level in the first place, so, really, you're going to "get what you get" and kicking someone out after they, possibly, screw up the courage to try it, is just wrong. I am reminded of the dance medleys at NEFFA and other dance festivals. NO ONE doesn't want to join the dance medley. For many it's the most important dance of the weekend. yeah we make all these rules, sometimes in "verse" (hi Lisa - I know you are listening), but bottom line is always that very inexperienced dancers join. For the most part they get absorbed without a problem and I think a dance full of "experienced dancers" should be able to guide these folks through the dance when they meet up without decreasing their own enjoyment. That's my experience anyway. The alternative is requiring certain "credentials" to join the dance as in what I assume is the norm for club square dancing. I think that is what we are trying to avoid in contra dancing, right? We make a big deal of the fact that all are welcome. OK, yeah, we advertise an 'advanced dance' BUT unless you have some sort of ridiculous screening at the door you're still going to get dancers of all levels. These folks should be WELCOMED not sent away. It's not like I don't get the problem here. How do we "elevate the dance level in our local communities"? That's a tough one but I think the organizers need to make it really clear what the complexity will be. This will be somewhat successful, but we all know many folks don't "read the fine print" (or heck even the bold print!). Maybe they are new to contradancing, are excited about it, see there's a dance, and just go. I think if a dance is advertised as "advanced level" and a number of beginners show up to an extent that actually "degrades" the dance, then the organizers are reading their community incorrectly. So, let's say this happens and the "experienced dancers" have an expectation that is not met? Well boo hoo, let's suck it up and spend some of our time as "an experienced dancer" helping the new folks along!!! THEN organizers reevaluate everything. Maybe an "invitation only" event? Maybe just be content with the fact that intermediate level is just fine as long as you're attracting new dancers. Callers can always throw in a few tricky dances at appropriate times to "push the envelope" a bit. And of course there's always dance weekends for the really "advanced" folks. So this is a callers list, not an organizer's list.. sooooo... what do I have to say to callers? This goes for any dance, not just an "advanced" dance (I've been calling for almost 40 years and have never called something advertised as an "advanced dance", except previously mentioned dance medleys) (yeah I know, maybe I don't get out that much any more hah hah). Callers, don't be afraid to push the level beyond the comfort level of many of the dancers! I am often afraid to do this myself. One set falls apart, but the other lines "get it". For the most part the "fall apart" set is grinning and having fun anyway!! This is almost always a good thing, even if it makes you feel you screwed up.. Finally, to what Julian said, I don't think anyone needs to get in free. A contra dance even if you're just sitting and listening to the music is one of the best entertainment values on the planet (3 hours of live trad music for 10 bucks heck maybe snacks at the break). yeah OK, maybe "donation".. but still.. this is a good deal. I think I might have more to say here, but I'll leave it at this and see what blows back. peace everyone bill ________________________________ From: Julian Blechner via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 4:57 PM To: Maia McCormick &lt;maia.mcc(a)gmail.com&gt; Cc: Shared Weight Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; Subject: [Callers] Re: Advanced dances gone awry I've given this some thought. I've been a dancer in this situation, and heard other organizers ask this question. I don't like the idea of asking someone to leave. I do think this is antithetical to my values as a dance organizer. I don't like the idea of gatekeeping and presuming I know how well a person may succeed not - especially since contra is a team sport. I also want to raise the idea of economic injustice - many folks carpool, or, in NYC it may be a pain to get to a location - even by mass transit a new person could really need the help of a friend. Especially if it's a person from out of town; having lived in and around NYC for a decade, it can be _daunting_. So I can totally see some experienced dancers wanting to bring a friend, and having them come later is not an option. Forcing them to come later may be easier for folks with financial means, which is why I'm saying this may touch on an issue of economic justice and privilege. An alternative I might have - and, totally with the benefit of hindsight and reflection: I think if I'm in this situation in the future, I will do the following: 1. Caution the dancer of the expected skill level. 2. Offer them to sit and enjoy the music for free / donation instead of required entry fee. 3. Recommend that if they're set on trying it out, to do so, but if they're not getting it, come hang out and stay, with fee refunded. (Like a satisfaction guarantee.) Ideally, if they do stay and sit, some dancers will need breaks and sit with them and make them feel welcome. In dance, Julian Blechner On Sun, Apr 16, 2023, 9:50 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: I attended an advanced dance this afternoon that was intermediate at best, and had a few raw beginners in there, and it got me wondering: 1. As callers, what do you do when a bunch of intermediate and/or beginner dancers show up to an advanced session? 2. As organizers, what do you do to try and keep your advanced sessions... advanced? (Either in messaging or at the dance itself?) Obviously I'm not advocating for kicking anyone out, but if a bunch of newbies show up at an advanced session, both they and the dancers who came for gnarly stuff are going to have a less-than-ideal time. 3. As dancers (/organizers/callers), how do we elevate the dance level of our local communities? I'm talking about increasing familiarity with some of the less common moves (contracorners, left hand chains, etc.) but also about building awareness of the dance and recovery skills, and technical things like giving satisfying weight, swinging correctly, guiding linemates into the next figure, etc. I welcome any thoughts and musings! Cheers, Maia (Brooklyn, NY) -- Maia McCormick (she/her) 917.279.8194 _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>