Greg, you've been writing about integrating new dancers by getting
the experienced dancers to dance with them and even teach them the
figures. For a long time I've thought that this was a bit weird- how
could this ever work?
Then my brain finally kicked in and I realized that we live in two
very different worlds. Although it's been some time since I called
in California, I remember that the dancers there were kind, gentle
and very relaxed. They were quite a contrast to some of the dancers
back east. Maybe your method works well because of the kinds of
people who live in your area. Over the years I've seen some
hostility and resentment towards new dancers in my small part of the
world.
In one dance community, the dancers were so hostile to the new
dancers that someone started a separate dance series for the sole
purpose of having a beginner friendly dance. And before the center
line was abolished at Glen Echo, a very large percentage of
experienced dancers had absolutely no interest in dancing with
beginners.
In my area we've always had a beginning lesson and the caller always
teaches the figures. It's worked there for decades. It's the
tradition. If it ain't broke why fix it? I'm thinking that to get
the experienced dancers to teach the figures might be detrimental in
some dance communities.
This is a complicated issue and involves more than language. There's
also understanding people and their values, beliefs etc. etc.
I can't remember exactly what your background is but I'm very
interested in learning more about language and it's use. Is there a
good website or book that you could recommend?
Tom
For dances where the ends get sucked in and spat out again in the middle of
the sequence, a useful rule is:
Don't worry if you are on the wrong side when you get sucked in, just do the
move with whoever you are with - you will get spat out again soon and can
then get ready for when you really join in again.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
Great idea for a workshop for dancers, but I'm curious what the callers
approach to these types of dances are. Many of the dance weekend caliber
callers seem to take a very cavalier approach, often saying something like
"This dance has some unusual end effects, be ready and good luck" or
nothing at all. Sometimes this works out ok, sometimes not.
I like doing a star for three when I am out at the end of contra corners. Call me evil....
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: End Effect Rules / Patterns (Bill Olson)
2. Re: integrating new dancers (rich sbardella)
3. Regency for newbies (Andrea Nettleton)
4. Re: Regency for newbies (Alan Winston)
5. End Effect Rules for callers (Jim Hemphill)
6. Re: End Effect Rules / Patterns (Michael Fuerst)
7. Re: End Effect Rules for callers (Jack Mitchell)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 16:08:39 +0000
From: Bill Olson <callbill(a)hotmail.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] End Effect Rules / Patterns
Message-ID: <BAY165-W59CD63CB4616FA8E75D398C6760(a)phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
On type #1, Rule: don't cross over immediately when waiting out, face partner and participate in dance using inevitable partner swing to change places .
On type #2 Don't know if this is a rule or not, but when women chain (let's say) to couple waiting out she thinks she's still in the dance and it's the waiting out gent's responsibility to "hold her back"... (and not get drawn back into the dance himself)..
Is it worth mentioning that a pair of couples waiting out at the end of a 4 facing 4 can face across and dance the dance with each other? That's "sort of" an end effect..
bill
> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 16:27:24 -0400
> From: jamitch3(a)mindspring.com
> To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
> Subject: [Callers] End Effect Rules / Patterns
>
> So...I've been thinking about trying to put together a workshop for
> experienced dancerd that would consist of dances that have end effects,
> but giving the dancers some rules of thumb to go on for different types
> of end effects. Would be glad of some help brainstorming different
> general categories of end effects (grouped by "coping mechanism").
> Here's what I can come up with off the top of my head (Corrections,
> additions and clarifications welcome)
>
> Type: Dances where you pull by along the set or do things with one
> neighbor after another
> Rule: At the ends, when you don't have a neighbor, treat your partner
> like your neighbor
> Rule: If you have to pass by shadows to get back to your partner, go the
> long way at the ends -- don't try to cut the corner
>
> Type: Things on the diagonal
> Rule: If there's no one there, stay put and *keep dancing -- you're not
> out yet*
>
> Type: Shadow is also neighbor
> Rule: Know that Shadow will fill both roles
>
> Type: spit out temporarily (with partner, neighbor or shadow) and then
> come back in
> Rule: Dance with ghosts
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 10:27:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: rich sbardella <richsbardella(a)snet.net>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] integrating new dancers
Message-ID:
<1372440462.13746.YahooMailClassic(a)web184705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
I dance regularly at three places in New England and the dancers at those venues?fit the description of those kind, gentle and very relaxed Californian dancers.
Rich
--- On Thu, 6/27/13, Tom Hinds <twhinds(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
From: Tom Hinds <twhinds(a)earthlink.net>
Subject: [Callers] integrating new dancers
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Date: Thursday, June 27, 2013, 8:37 AM
Greg, you've been writing about integrating new dancers by getting the experienced dancers to dance with them and even teach them the figures.? For a long time I've thought that this was a bit weird- how could this ever work?
Then my brain finally kicked in and I realized that we live in two very different worlds.? Although it's been some time since I called in California, I remember that the dancers there were kind, gentle and very relaxed.???They were quite a contrast to some of the dancers back east.? Maybe your method works well because of the kinds of people who live in your area.? Over the years I've seen some hostility and resentment towards new dancers in my small part of the world.
In one dance community, the dancers were so hostile to the new dancers that someone started a separate dance series for the sole purpose of having a beginner friendly dance.? And before the center line was abolished at Glen Echo, a very large percentage of experienced dancers had absolutely no interest in dancing with beginners.
In my area we've always had a beginning lesson and the caller always teaches the figures.? It's worked there for decades.? It's the tradition.? If it ain't broke why fix it?? I'm thinking that to get the experienced dancers to teach the figures might be detrimental in some dance communities.
This is a complicated issue and involves more than language. There's also understanding people and their values, beliefs etc. etc.
I can't remember exactly what your background is but I'm very interested in learning more about language and it's use.? Is there a good website or book that you could recommend?
Tom
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 23:34:51 +0100
From: Andrea Nettleton <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net>
To: trad-dance-callers(a)yahoogroups.com, Caller's discussion list
<callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: [Callers] Regency for newbies
Message-ID: <85AE677B-A215-48BB-ACEB-7C8F951C11BE(a)bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I'm in Oxford with a group of GA Tech undergrads and the Prof who is teaching a Jane Austen class has requested that I teach them a bunch of ECD from that era, things that would really have been danced then. I don't have with me the resources I had available in the states. I need a selection of maybe a dozen dances, and a resource from which to give them interesting tidbits about etiquette, flirtation, the circumstances of a ball such as chaperones, the necessity for an introduction before inter gender conversation could occur, etc. I want something as authentic as possible, but they are all newbies and I want them to have fun. Recommendations most welcome. I have a fiddler and a Barnes book, and notes for a few dances and any I can glean from the web, unless one of my esteemed colleagues loans them to me. I'm confident about the teaching part, it is more a matter of what to present.
Thanks
Andrea
Sent from my iPad
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 16:05:58 -0700
From: Alan Winston <winston(a)slac.stanford.edu>
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] Regency for newbies
Message-ID: <51CE16D6.3000606(a)slac.stanford.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 6/28/2013 3:34 PM, Andrea Nettleton wrote:
> I'm in Oxford with a group of GA Tech undergrads and the Prof who is teaching a Jane Austen class has requested that I teach them a bunch of ECD from that era, things that would really have been danced then. I don't have with me the resources I had available in the states. I need a selection of maybe a dozen dances, and a resource from which to give them interesting tidbits about etiquette, flirtation, the circumstances of a ball such as chaperones, the necessity for an introduction before inter gender conversation could occur, etc. I want something as authentic as possible, but they are all newbies and I want them to have fun. Recommendations most welcome. I have a fiddler and a Barnes book, and notes for a few dances and any I can glean from the web, unless one of my esteemed colleagues loans them to me. I'm confident about the teaching part, it is more a matter of what to present.
> Thanks
> Andrea
>
I just send Andrea a big file of dance notes off-list. That file has
mid-1700s to early 1800s in it - probably too much, but I had it already
made up. For Jane Austen class it's probably more apropos to do
Austen's lifetime (1775-1817) than strictly Regency (1811-1820).
For extremely authentic you'd be teaching them to make up dances out of
building block figures. Many of the reconstructed Austen-era dances for
modern dancers have been tweaked; triple minors often became
three-couple sets. There's a number of 1740s or 1750s dance patterns
that are very much like c.1800 dance patterns.
Suggestions more closely focused on Austen's lifetime and general
accessiblity, as I think of them and not in the order I would present them
Haste to the Wedding (as a longways set, not Sicilian Circle)
Midnight Ramble
Young Widow
Marlbrouk Cotillion
Dover Pier
Trip to Tunbridge (contra corners, similar to Chorus Jig)
North Down Waltz
Long Odds (requires the ability to RH turn 1.5 in four bars, which may
be challenging)
Physical Snob
Prince William (crossover mirror hey _and_ contra corners!)
Rakes of Rochester
The Spaniard
The Bishop (gypsy is historically questionable)
Dover Pier
(If your fiddler doesn't like any of those tunes - and I hear "the
Bishop" can be a bear to play - it would be period practice to use the
figures with a different tune.)
Hope this helps!
-- Alan
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 19:04:50 -0500
From: Jim Hemphill <arcadian35(a)gmail.com>
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: [Callers] End Effect Rules for callers
Message-ID:
<CAL3h0BR23EhOAb=vG8Db04PdZEe04Bu0kSaZMkC5BrXShpVNgA(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Great idea for a workshop for dancers, but I'm curious what the callers
approach to these types of dances are. Many of the dance weekend caliber
callers seem to take a very cavalier approach, often saying something like
"This dance has some unusual end effects, be ready and good luck" or
nothing at all. Sometimes this works out ok, sometimes not.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 21:42:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Fuerst <mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com>
To: "jamitch3(a)mindspring.com" <jamitch3(a)mindspring.com>, Caller's
discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] End Effect Rules / Patterns
Message-ID:
<1372480928.50470.YahooMailNeo(a)web122202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Actually this strikes me a bad idea for a workshop.
Dances with challenging end effects have such because of the interesting stuff within the dances.
Dancers will not be enlightened by the ?end effects.
So just do a workshop of advanced dances.
Dancers just will remember at most ?one or two instruction for end effects, and it should be the most important instruction . ? For example:
? ? ? a) ?Dance around at the ends, or
? ? ? b) When out at the end, face back in with man on right, woman on left (which I do not think has been suggested yet). ? or
? ? ? c) You'll will pop in and out at the end several times
If the dancers in front of the caller aren't skilled enough to handle the end effects with one or two brief items of advice, s/he should consider calling a different dance
Some ideas for workshops
a) ?Proper dances. ? ?? There are small number of interesting proper dances where bout couples are equally active. ?Tom Hinds probably has written the most of these. ? ??
? ? ? ? ?Al Olson has a dance Contra Corners Special. ? ?Mark Richardson, David?Kirchner?and I have written one.
? ? ? ? ?Roger Diggle has several elegant, but uneven proper dance
b) ?Quirky dances. ? ?Dances with seemingly bizarre choreography, but which are fun.
? ? ? ? ?Kirston Koths wrote quite a few of these in the 1980's
? ? ? ? ?Mike Boerschig has one called the The Fishin' Reel
? ? ? ? ?Claudio Buchwald has one, I think it's in Zesty Contras
c) Quirky Formations (e.g. 1's crossed, backwards progressions, 1's start below 2's)
?
Michael Fuerst ? ? ?802 N Broadway ? ? ?Urbana IL 61801?????? 217-239-5844
Links to photos of many of my drawings and paintings are at www.ArtComesFuerst.com
________________________________
From: Jack Mitchell <jamitch3(a)mindspring.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 3:27 PM
Subject: [Callers] End Effect Rules / Patterns
So...I've been thinking about trying to put together a workshop for
experienced dancerd that would consist of dances that have end effects,
but giving the dancers some rules of thumb to go on for different types
of end effects.? Would be glad of some help brainstorming different
general categories of end effects (grouped by "coping mechanism").?
Here's what I can come up with off the top of my head (Corrections,
additions and clarifications welcome)
Type: Dances where you pull by along the set or do things with one
neighbor after another
Rule: At the ends, when you don't have a neighbor, treat your partner
like your neighbor
Rule: If you have to pass by shadows to get back to your partner, go the
long way at the ends -- don't try to cut the corner
Type: Things on the diagonal
Rule: If there's no one there, stay put and *keep dancing -- you're not
out yet*
Type: Shadow is also neighbor
Rule: Know that Shadow will fill both roles
Type: spit out temporarily (with partner, neighbor or shadow) and then
come back in
Rule: Dance with ghosts
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Callers(a)sharedweight.net
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2013 01:33:45 -0400
From: Jack Mitchell <jamitch3(a)mindspring.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] End Effect Rules for callers
Message-ID: <51CE71B9.9040402(a)mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
My goal in the workshop would be to give people tools that they can use
to make sense of at least a large subset of dances with challenging end
effects by trying to come up with the smallest number of general
categories of end effects / coping skills possible, and avoiding having
to give specific instructions for that dance -- the first time you go
out wait out with the lady on the left, then wait out on the right
diagonal, and such as that. While I strongly doubt that I can cover
every possible type of end effect, I think that it should be possible to
cover some general categories of end effect and to give folks some
structure for dealing with them. I would really like to help the
dancers find the patterns so that they can better cope with end effects
when they come along...
I'm going to sit down with some of the things that folks have posted
this weekend and with my dance box and see what I can come up with.
Jack
On 6/28/2013 8:04 PM, Jim Hemphill wrote:
> Great idea for a workshop for dancers, but I'm curious what the callers
> approach to these types of dances are. Many of the dance weekend caliber
> callers seem to take a very cavalier approach, often saying something like
> "This dance has some unusual end effects, be ready and good luck" or
> nothing at all. Sometimes this works out ok, sometimes not.
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>
>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
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End of Callers Digest, Vol 106, Issue 38
****************************************
I'm in Oxford with a group of GA Tech undergrads and the Prof who is teaching a Jane Austen class has requested that I teach them a bunch of ECD from that era, things that would really have been danced then. I don't have with me the resources I had available in the states. I need a selection of maybe a dozen dances, and a resource from which to give them interesting tidbits about etiquette, flirtation, the circumstances of a ball such as chaperones, the necessity for an introduction before inter gender conversation could occur, etc. I want something as authentic as possible, but they are all newbies and I want them to have fun. Recommendations most welcome. I have a fiddler and a Barnes book, and notes for a few dances and any I can glean from the web, unless one of my esteemed colleagues loans them to me. I'm confident about the teaching part, it is more a matter of what to present.
Thanks
Andrea
Sent from my iPad
So...I've been thinking about trying to put together a workshop for
experienced dancerd that would consist of dances that have end effects,
but giving the dancers some rules of thumb to go on for different types
of end effects. Would be glad of some help brainstorming different
general categories of end effects (grouped by "coping mechanism").
Here's what I can come up with off the top of my head (Corrections,
additions and clarifications welcome)
Type: Dances where you pull by along the set or do things with one
neighbor after another
Rule: At the ends, when you don't have a neighbor, treat your partner
like your neighbor
Rule: If you have to pass by shadows to get back to your partner, go the
long way at the ends -- don't try to cut the corner
Type: Things on the diagonal
Rule: If there's no one there, stay put and *keep dancing -- you're not
out yet*
Type: Shadow is also neighbor
Rule: Know that Shadow will fill both roles
Type: spit out temporarily (with partner, neighbor or shadow) and then
come back in
Rule: Dance with ghosts
On type #1, Rule: don't cross over immediately when waiting out, face partner and participate in dance using inevitable partner swing to change places .
On type #2 Don't know if this is a rule or not, but when women chain (let's say) to couple waiting out she thinks she's still in the dance and it's the waiting out gent's responsibility to "hold her back"... (and not get drawn back into the dance himself)..
Is it worth mentioning that a pair of couples waiting out at the end of a 4 facing 4 can face across and dance the dance with each other? That's "sort of" an end effect..
bill
> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 16:27:24 -0400
> From: jamitch3(a)mindspring.com
> To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
> Subject: [Callers] End Effect Rules / Patterns
>
> So...I've been thinking about trying to put together a workshop for
> experienced dancerd that would consist of dances that have end effects,
> but giving the dancers some rules of thumb to go on for different types
> of end effects. Would be glad of some help brainstorming different
> general categories of end effects (grouped by "coping mechanism").
> Here's what I can come up with off the top of my head (Corrections,
> additions and clarifications welcome)
>
> Type: Dances where you pull by along the set or do things with one
> neighbor after another
> Rule: At the ends, when you don't have a neighbor, treat your partner
> like your neighbor
> Rule: If you have to pass by shadows to get back to your partner, go the
> long way at the ends -- don't try to cut the corner
>
> Type: Things on the diagonal
> Rule: If there's no one there, stay put and *keep dancing -- you're not
> out yet*
>
> Type: Shadow is also neighbor
> Rule: Know that Shadow will fill both roles
>
> Type: spit out temporarily (with partner, neighbor or shadow) and then
> come back in
> Rule: Dance with ghosts
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
Erik said (re stars), "Many people call this the "wrist grip" form. I
encourage us all to remove the word "grip" from out teaching lexicon, as
gripping has led to griping, and that (IMHO) horrid no-thumb
allemande... The connection is through hooks and surfaces to lean on,
not through gripping. And, although I don't like the no thumb
allemande, when I teach this form of star, I encourage all five fingers,
thumb included, going over the top of the wrist in front - no grip."
Stars: I agree entirely. "Wrist Lock", "Box", etc are MUCH better
terms.
Allemandes: Sorry. Why do you want someone gripping your thumb with
theirs? I like to be able to spin out of Allemandes, and spin easily in
Rory O'Mores without having to worry about getting someone to let go of
me first.
Many people grip too tightly when they use their thumb, whether it is a
circle, a line, an allemande, a box the gnat or anything else. Painful
and awkward!
I firmly believe that thumbs should not be used, ever, for anything in
dancing! :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
Alan wrote:
> I totally agree that we need to rely on and empower experienced dancers to
> teach figures. What I'm talking about however is newcomers who seemed to
> have learned the figure in the walkthrough losing it after the dance starts
> and apparently unable to receive any input from caller or other dancers,
> and what can be done about that.
My apologies. I was not being clear in addressing your question. Earlier
Alan wrote:
> This is likelier to happen if both partners are new, and likeliest to
>> happen if all four in that set are new. But that couple that's new will
>> have that problem repeatedly. When I see that I continue to prompt the
>> figures, maybe with more emphasis - Ladies CHAIN and COURTESY TURN - and
>> it doesn't seem to make any difference.
>>
>
What I was trying to say is that this problem seems to be rooted in the
fact that your hall was not integrated. If all first-timers were paired
with a regular then your situation would be a very different one.
Instead of focusing on tactics to teach multiple couples of paired
first-timers from the mike I am suggesting that we address the root cause
which is the fact that the hall is not integrated.
Obviously, this is more difficult when there are already couples of
first-timers paired with each other. But being pro-active in your efforts
to integrate the hall would solve the root problem for your next gig and
would set a different tone that will allow you to demonstrate to the
regulars that partnering with first-timers is very gratifying and fun.
This is not, by the way, a long-term "problem" that lives in the "local
dance culture." Any caller who can call precisely and clearly using
effective word-order can set a tone that immediately makes it clear that
the regulars have a vital role to play in welcoming and leading newcomers
through the figures. This is what makes contras a "traditional" dance
form. The regulars show the first-timers how it's done...not the caller.
Thank you Donna and JoLaine for your ideas about integration.
JoLaine wrote:
> I often hear callers tell the newbies to find experienced dancers. That's
> like telling a drowning person to go find a lifeguard!
>
This is a good point. But there are some subtle factors to keep in mind
when speaking on mike that can make it more effective to speak directly to
the first-timers. If you tell the regulars to pair up with first-timers
you are sending out some subtle implied messages with negative consequences:
- You will be indicating that you feel the regulars either do not know that
there are first-timers in the room...or worse you will be indicating that
you believe the regulars are not inclined to dance with first-timers and
must be told to do so from the mike.
This point will not be lost on the first-timers themselves, who are likely
to assume that the regulars are not fond of dancing with first-timers (why
else would the caller have to tell them to do it?).
I prefer to address the first-timers directly and assume the full support
of the regulars. The regulars already know who the first-timers are. And
the first-timers need to know that it is the custom that regulars will
partner with them. (The regulars already know this.) I begin my evening
by saying:
"If you are new to this kind of dancing please find someone who has danced
for at least one night. I will tell you everything you need to know and
your more experienced partner will show you all of the moves."
This is a subtle point but it has to do with "leading by assumption." If
you assume the support of the regulars you will get more support than by
ordering them from the mike. The "at least one night" phrase authorizes
everyone in the room--except first-timers--to partner with first-timers,
and this makes the task seem much more manageable because there are many
dancers who can help.
Just a thought,
Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA
Some clarification for those that didn't read the Blog post, but just read
my text in the email:
When I say that the experienced dancers teach - I mean that they teach by
connection, extending hands, physical cues etc. Our dance angels have
agreed to keep verbal cues to a minimum. It may be a regional thing, but
in general, the Florida communities are pretty good at this. If I see
someone heavily involved in a verbal teaching, I may walk over and see what
I can do to help,
As far as telling the newbies to find experienced partners vs telling the
experienced dancers to find newbies - I still stand by my original premise
that we put the responsibility on the experienced dancers. If I have to
weigh the very subtle message "these dancers have to be told to dance with
me" against the overt message "you're on your own here new dancer and its
up to you to figure out who is an experienced dancer and who isn't, and
even though you've already stretched your comfort zone by making an effort
to do something new in a room full of strangers, I'm going to make you
stretch it even more by telling you to walk up to these strangers and ask
them to dance with you."
I do acknowledge that different communities would present different
challenges depending on the cultural willingness to embrace newbies. I know
of communities where experienced dancers would only dance with newbies
under duress, and a different approach might be needed there, but I haven't
called in those communities yet.
--
JoLaine Jones-Pokorney
"We are as gods and might as well get good at it!"
- Stewart Brand
