Martha said, "I agree fully with Erik Hoffman. I can't fathom the no thumb allemande. How the heck do you get any connection with it? Two flat surfaces and only friction - you might as well just walk around the other person, it's worse than a noodle arm. The way most people do get connection is to bend the wrist to provide some contact for shared weight - and that hurts my wrist horribly. So if someone gives me a no thumb allemande, I comply, desperately trying not to have my wrist bent, and if it is someone who doesn't bend the wrist, then there is no connection, no "shared weight" and no chance if it's a 1 1/2 allemande to get around in time. Erik has always taught the allemande hold as being a "hook", with the curled fingers providing the connection, and I have stolen that description from him and use it myself. The thumb is along for the ride but should not do any squeezing or gripping, in fact, it can even lie flat next to the curled fingers and not intersect the other thumb, as he mentions in describing the star hold. Connection without thumb pain." Maybe there is some confusion about what people mean by a "no thumb allemande". What I mean by a "no thumb allemande" is exactly what you describe: "the allemande hold is a "hook", with the curled fingers providing the connection. The thumb is along for the ride but should not do any squeezing or gripping, and should lie flat next to the curled fingers and not intersect the other thumb." So, for me, the "no thumb allemande" is a good allemande grip but with the thumbs NOT interlocked. I occasionally meet people in the lines who offer me a flat hand with their fingers straight (sometimes even splayed!) for an allemande. Very uncomfortable and useless for zesty dancing. Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent