I was a bit surprised by the comment that went something like " she’s supposed to be following, why would she want to resist him?"…In 25 years of teaching couple dancing, during my initial ranting about frame, I’ve had lots of interesting questions from students, but haven’t heard that one…yet. Remember the line in "Dirty Dancing" " you stay in your space, I’ll stay in mine"? Gentle resistance is the essence of frame.
Let me preface this small collection of web gleanings below by a line from one of them : "I have a feeling that honorable teachers will differ on this point." Here’s my position:
Non-believers in the cone (within reason as I initially stated) might want to try this exercise. Have 2 dancers join both hands, stand upright with nice posture, each supporting 100% of their own weight. No noodle arms of course. Put something on the floor in the middle of them (rock, cup?) and ask them to circle around the object as fast as they can while maintaining absolutely upright posture and supporting 100% of their own weight. You could time their revolutions per minute. Then ask them to "Give weight" (let’s reflect a moment on that "give" "weight" ..give to whom? Whose weight?..why, your weight to your partner of course or rather both your weights given to the central part of the frame). Each person leans back from the feet a bit, maybe you have them move their feet in toward the object a bit…and they find the central balance point…certainly not enough to topple if let go, but to begin to feel that sensation…then ask them to repeat the
exercise. Time their revolutions. More important, ask them which felt more thrilling. It is not that one partner is throwing weight on the other, its not that the man has a burden of holding the woman’s dead weight. Its that they’ve found a physical balance point. An 80 pound grandchild could do this with a 200 pound granddad.
What I find very interesting in this exercise, which I use in each waltz class before teaching couple turns and couple pivots, is that the folks have a bit of a hard time following the instructions for the first part…they want badly to make a cone at the very start…they know or their bodies know that’s the way to go faster
And of course the couple doesn’t maintain the cone at the end of the swing, so the suggestion they would topple over as an argument against the cone is reductio ad absurdum. To end the swing, the partners stand more and more upright which naturally slows the momentum. The instantaneous forming of the cone and the dissolving of it are, in fact, meta-leads that signal the start and finish of the swing.
And re: the woman pressing back into the Man’s right hand. It’s called by many dance teachers "finding the lead". Some nights when I am social dancing the man’s part, I find many women partners who have bought into the biggest lie in couple dancing "Be light as a feather in a man’s arms". If I can’t find you I can’t lead you!! Women whose backs come to rest shy of my palm are absolutely unleadable. A nice firm press back into my right hand by her shoulder blade maximizes skin (and nerve) contact so she can feel the slightest suggestion I may give her.
http://www.cocoabeachcontra.org/contrais.htm
The Swing. Contra dance's flagship move is a spin in ballroom position. Develop a good swing and people will want to dance with you! Experienced dancers are eager to give you pointers, so ask, and try them when they're given whether they're requested or not.
* Hand position. The man's right hand goes on the lady's back on or just below the bra strap, placed to support her weight in the spin. The woman’s left arm goes on top of his arm and around his shoulder with the hand wherever it lands. If she can reach behind his shoulder, she should support the spin as well, but don't stretch to reach if you are much smaller than he is. The other hands touch lightly. Their arms should be tensed, with elbow bent, creating a "frame."
* The spin. Rotate the frame to your left, placing your right foot down on every odd beat, parallel to your partner's. Left feet can walk or "buzz step" (ask for a demo). Do not bounce! That's for (bad) movies. Rotate as smoothly as you can, like a merry-go-round. Leaning left asks to go faster, right asks to decelerate. If you easily get dizzy, say, "spin slowly" when you start.
* Giving weight. Keep your upper body straight and lean out to give your partner a feeling of connectedness. Your arms hold you together; if you let go you should fly apart (so don't!). It's a tension between the two people - you can feel that there's someone there. Look at each other! If they're smiling, you're doing fine. If not, ask.
*
* adapted from information created by Gary Shapiro –
*
http://www.ras-this.com/dance-frame-vs-spaghetti-arms/
On the other hand ladies, it is our responsibility to offer a stable frame. One that is a constant, toned resistance, equal to that of our partner –
http://www.cyber-tango.com/art/frame.html
Maybe I'm just stuck in a certain style that works for me, but I have partners here with whom I cannot dance very well at all because they don't maintain a "V". I have a feeling that honorable teachers will differ on this point. http://www.jmnelson.com/studio/dance/articles/summary.pdf
Closed Position:….The man's right wrist should be at the back edge of the woman's armpit, fingers and thumb together, hand cupped slightly, resting gently on her shoulder blade. The man is responsible for keeping his hand in the proper position,and the woman is responsible for keeping gentle pressure against his hand… http://socialdancemusings.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/dance-frame/
Have tension in your arms so each partner can move the other around. Sit back a bit, settle your weight, use your frame to hold the two of you up.
I agree with Michael. Especially in the case of a classic.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Barraclough <michael(a)michaelbarraclough.com>
>Sent: Jun 20, 2013 5:25 PM
>To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
>Subject: Re: [Callers] Tampering with a classis aagain 3-33-33
>
>There are thousands of contras. If one doesn't work, why not try
>another one instead of altering that one?
>
>Michael Barraclough
>
>
>
>On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 13:16 -0700, Dave C wrote:
>
>> Instead of the Ladies Dosido 1.5 at the end to progress, just have the Ladies AL 1 1/2 in the center, with RH ready for the next neighbor. Some in the caller community have dubbed this version of the dance 3-33-34.
>>
>> Dave Colestock
>> New Cumberland, PA
>>
>>
>> --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Kalia Kliban <kalia(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> From: Kalia Kliban <kalia(a)sbcglobal.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Tampering with a classis aagain 3-33-33
>> To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
>> Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 2:10 PM
>>
>> I've had pretty good luck with it, possibly because I have the women ID the next neighbor early on. They know which face to look for. After that, they get a better feel for the area to aim for to find the new neighbor. A couple of seriously disoriented dancers can really play havoc with this dance though. It's brittle.
>>
>> Kalia
>>
>> On 6/20/2013 11:02 AM, Rickey Holt wrote:
>> > 3-33-33 lovers and callers - I have been calling this great dance recently
>> > and noticed that dancers of various experience levels in several venues have
>> > had trouble with the transition in the B2 from the Ladies Do-si-do 1 1/2 to
>> > the balance with the next neighbor that starts the dance. They have trouble
>> > finding that next neighbor, even after several times through, and with
>> > translating the momentum of crossing the set to that of up and down the line
>> > of the first part of the dance. I tried substituting an allemande right 1
>> > 1/2 for the do-si-do 1 1/2 of the original with little effect. What about a
>> > ladies allemande right about 1 1/2 to a next neighbor allemande left and
>> > then starting the dance again with a balance by the right with that
>> > neighbor? Other solutions? Have you or your dancers noticed the problem
>> > that I have seen. As always, thanks for your thoughts.
>> >
>> > Rickey Holt
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
>> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
>> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Callers mailing list
>Callers(a)sharedweight.net
>http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
Bree Kalb, LCSW
301 W. Weaver St.
Carrboro, NC 27510
919-932-6262 ext 216
http://www.thewellnessalliance.com/BreeKalb.html
Regarding the Use of Email -- Please Note: Although I use a firewall and my
computer is password protected, my emails are not encrypted. Therefore, I
cannot guarantee confidentiality of email communication. If you choose to
communicate confidential information with me via email, I will assume that
you have made an informed decision and I will view it as your agreement to
take the risk that email may be intercepted. Please be aware that email is
never an appropriate vehicle for emergency communication. If you are
canceling an appointment less than 48 hours in advance, please
also leave me a voice mail message at my office.
Hi Andrea,
The best sites for finding out what is going on are:
http://www.webfeet.org/
This lists all the ceilidh-orientated dances. Simpler dances usually with
lots of energy - lots of stepping.
http://www.setandturnsingle.org.uk/
This lists all the Folk Dance Clubs. ECD is an American concept. At FDCs
the evening will usually have lots of ECD-like material, but can include
anything including contras, squares and barn dances.
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/Links.html
This will give you the links for all the contras I know about in the UK.
http://www.efdss.org/
If you are in London it is worth going to Cecil Sharp House - this site will
tell you what is on.
http://www.uksquaredancing.com/
MWSD in the UK.
If you want to try some English couples dancing try some Ceroc/Modern
Jive/LeRoc. You will find all the clubs listed at
http://www.uk-jive.co.uk - if you want to know what it is see
http://www.modernjive.com - great fun :-)
Hope that helps :-)
If there is any particular person or organisation you need to contact,
e-mail me and I will try to put you in touch.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
Due to technical difficulties, I cannot access the information some of my UK friends sent me about dancing in the UK, where I am spending the summer (Oxford). I am going into dance withdrawal and need a fix ASAP. Can any of you help me? I dance MWSD up to Advanced, contras, trad squares, ECD, vintage, a variety of couples dances, Irish Sets and a little ceilidh. I am willing to go learn something new, if the group will be welcoming. Also would love to have tea with callers or choreographers. I am surrounded by astounding beauty, fabulous and fascinating history, but without my community, I feel so untethered!
Thanks,
Andrea
Sent from my iPad
Hi Jeff,
Thanks for your detailed replies. I did say that not everyone would agree
about placing the lady's arm on the man's forearm rather than his back
during a swing :-)
Just because lots of people do it one way doesn't make it the best or only
way. Countless aspects of the dance have changed over the decades; nothing
is written in stone. Improvisation and innovation are good!
I gave all the reasons I could think of as to why I prefer the lady's arm on
my forearm rather than my back, to try to get people to at least think about
it.
If the lady is a good dancer, keeps her own balance, can move her arm
instantly to handle any flourish, can actually reach my shoulder blade, and
doesn't press in, then I am absolutely fine with her placing her hand on my
shoulder blade. But not all ladies are like that.
I dance a lot, in a lot of places, and I meet lots of wonderful ladies who
swing beautifully. Sadly I also meet ladies who grip my arm, clamp my arm,
strangle me, hang off me, lean away from me, press their hand into my back -
even to the extent of turning their hand and pressing the bony edge into my
back (I think they think it is stylish!) - etc.
So I strongly prefer to teach that the lady just rests her hand on my arm.
One minor point: you say you prefer the lady's hand on your back so that
they can support their weight. I would hope that the lady will be
supporting her weight with her feet. All the hand on the back is for is to
resist centrifugal force and in 50 years of swinging I have never found it a
problem to be the one resisting it.
My arms get sore as well (tends to be my shoulders rather than my wrists),
but it is not from resisting centrifugal force. It is from supporting
ladies who lean back or push back. When you have a perfect counterbalance
with both partners relaxed then you can have a high speed swing with very
little effort.
But we are all different! There are countless different ways to swing.
Please just think next time you teach a swing that maybe it is OK to show a
couple of hand positions and tell the ladies that it is OK to choose the one
that is most comfortable. And that wherever they place it they don't need to
press.
By the way, when I swing as a lady I find just as many challenges with the
way some men swing :-)
Yes, it would be much better to continue this discussion on the dance-floor.
I was talking to my wife only yesterday about trying to get to New England
for one of our vacations again. I'll let you know if we ever make it.
Otherwise I look forward to seeing you in London or Kent, or Phoenix on New
Year's Eve or the January Frolic; we are also hoping to get to the Contra
Carnivale in January (New England in January isn't warm enough for a
vacation for us :-) ).
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
Gang --
Wasn't really sure of the subject line, but thought I might as well not
say "memetic entrapment" because who would want to read it?
Anyway, a phenomenon I've noticed several times over the years is that
some fraction of people who were in a beginner workshop and who in the
walkthrough of the dance were able to do something like "women chain to
partner, women allemande 1x, partner balance and swing" are no longer
able to do it, instead pretty reliably doing "women pull by, partner
swing" and confusion. [That one's recoverable, although if they then
stop swinging early and move on to the after-the-swing figure it can
require attention.]
This is likelier to happen if both partners are new, and likeliest to
happen if all four in that set are new. But that couple that's new will
have that problem repeatedly. When I see that I continue to prompt the
figures, maybe with more emphasis - Ladies CHAIN and COURTESY TURN -
and it doesn't seem to make any difference.
(I'm reminded of something that happens to beginning English dancers.
"Back to back" (non-spinning do-si-do) and "Cross and go below" start
the same way - striding out to pass partner by the right shoulder. If
there's a do-si-do in dance #1 and a "Cross and go below" in dance #2,
they'll do the cross and go below in the walkthrough once they get the
idea, but once the dance is up and running, when it comes time for that
move they'll try to do-si-do, with resultant levels of chaos. That one
has the obvious feature that even if half of the partnership is doing it
right the other half can't see them, so there's no feedback about
anything going wrong until the 2s move up to fill the spot that one of
the 1s is still in, or only one of the 2s moves up, or neither of the 2s
moves up.)
This either doesn't happen to dancers who have been coming for a while
or is corrected quickly if it does, maybe by noticing what everybody
else in the line is doing.
My hypothesis is that these are people who are still drinking from the
firehose. (The first time you come you hear everything important about
contra dancing and probably get exposed to half or more of the common
figures. It's a big cognitive load. The second time you hear the same
things again and get exposed to many fewer new-to-you figures, and by
the third time you might be successfully associating the figures with
the names - the flow of novelty is at a trickle and easy to absorb.)
They're not ignoring the caller, per se, but they don't have CPU left
over to process the prompts and in any case the words aren't really
meaning anything to them yet; if a prompt changes what they're doing
they're going to take four-six beats to get organized enough to respond
to the prompt. )
This will get sorted out if they keep coming back, probably. But they
may be less likely to return if they were confused and overstretched
through the whole evening, and this is the kind of thing that leaves you
confused.
What do you guys do about this kind of thing? I already keep prompting
clearly and in a timely way, refrain from shouting "No!" over the
microphone, don't lose my cool (a place that took me a while to get to,
incidentally). What else can I do to help these people succeed?
[Also happy to hear alternative views of what's going on inside these
people.)
-- Alan
I too have noticed the tone of these discussion change dramatically
as well. From the beginning, this was a very simple and interesting
forum for exchanging ideas. I agree with Linda that the comments of
many people show an attitude that I could do without.
Some of the grandiose claims that a number of you make just leave
shaking my head. Isn't it true that the answer to many issues is
often "it depends"? Couldn't your way and another person's way be
valid at the same time?
At the same time I admit that I made a mistake in labeling Greg's
method of integrating new dancers as weird. Greg, if you were
insulted, please accept my apologies. I don't need to add fuel to
the fire and I'll be more careful in the future.
Let's view these discussions as great learning opportunities. They
shouldn't be bitch sessions, ego builders, opportunities for power
plays or therapy sessions!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom
JoLaine said, "When I dance lead, if I encounter a woman who leans back on
me, I simply walk the swing so there is no centrifugal force generated."
Yes, self-defense mechanisms are great. Mine is to move my right hand from
the lady's shoulder-blade to her waist so that I am not supporting her.
And, as you say, one way or another, slow the swing down. It isn't worth
getting hurt for.
JoLaine said, " You are using the hand behind the other person's shoulder to
gently PULL IN".
Sorry, I would disagree there. I have experienced a lot of ladies who have
been told that, and as a result they put their hand on your back and press
hard. I always tell people to just PLACE the hand there. As the swing
speeds up you will automatically resist the centrifugal force, but only with
just enough pressure to counter it. Too many people start pressing when
there is no need and it can be quite uncomfortable. You never actually need
to pull in.
Of course that only applies if the lady places her hand on the man's back.
I never teach that. I always tell ladies to rest their arm gently on the
man's upper arm.
And here, from a previous discussion with Andrea (we agree to disagree on
this one :-) ) is why:
= = = = = = = = =
Yes, I love swings that are 100% symmetrical. I do lots of Galway Swings,
Northumberland Swings, Ceilidh Swing, Sweetheart Swing, etc. where you are
both absolutely symmetrical.
But the normal buzz-step swing is not QUITE symmetrical. The man's right
arm usually goes under the lady's left arm. And that is what makes all the
difference.
Yes, I know some very well-respected American callers who teach a swing
with the lady's left hand on the back of the man's shoulder blade.
I believe that there are many challenges associated with this:
1) The man, who, on average, has longer arms, reaches under the lady's arm
to very easily reach her shoulder-blade. The lady, with her (on average)
shorter arms and probably starting from lower down, has to reach OVER the
man's arm to get to his shoulder-blade. Yes, some ladies can reach. But in
my experience many ladies cannot easily reach and still be comfortable.
2) If they can just reach, many ladies then, instead of just placing their
hand on the man's shoulder-blade (so that when centrifugal force increases
they can resist it) they actually press into the man's shoulder-blade. I am
not sure if this is just bad technique, but I suspect it may be partially to
do with the fact that they can only just reach so they press so that their
hand doesn't slip. It can be quite uncomfortable for the man.
3) Even if the lady's arm is the same length as the man, and she is the same
height, she still has to reach over his arm, so it automatically pulls you
closer together than you need to be, and even closer if her arm is shorter.
While there are fun swing variations where we get really, really close, in a
standard buzz-step swing I don't believe that being forced closer together
is desirable.
4) It is not necessary if the man's hand is well placed. As you say each
supports their own weight, so all the connection is doing is resisting
centrifugal force and, in nearly 50 years of swinging, I have never found
that a problem.
5) It is quite common for the lady to twirl under the man's arm at the end
of a swing. If the lady twirls counter-clockwise that is not a problem. But
if she twirls clockwise then she will break her arm. Probably not a problem
is the lady is completely in control of the twirl - she just prepares for it
by moving her arm, but if the man takes some part in initiating the twirl
(which I believe is very common) then if he tries to twirl her and she
reacts slowly then either the twirl fails or she gets hurt. Of course if
the lady's left hand is just resting on the man's upper arm she can twirl
either way without a problem. The hand just slides off easily.
6) In complex flourishes, such as a Texas Tommy/Apache Whip exit from a
swing, then you really do need some lead and follow, and it is nearly always
the man leading the lady. A move like that is impossible if the lady's left
hand is on the man's back. Believe me I have tried it!
I hope that helps you understand why I always teach the lady to leave her
relaxed left arm resting on the man's upper arm. :-)
= = = = = = = = =
I know we will never get agreement on this, but at least please tell people
to just PLACE the hand - no inward pressure is required, just the resistance
to outward pressure. :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
One way is to start with a Lucky 7 Circle Mixer:
A1: Circle Left x 2
A2: Into the Middle and Back x 2
B1: Grand Chain (Start Right Hand with Partner (#1). Men CC, Ladies C -
don't turn!)
B2: Swing #7
Sorry, in America I guess you would say Grand Right & Left rather than Grand
Chain.
That gets them weaving, then you just need to handle the end effects when
you have a line rather than a circle.
I usually use Flirtation Reel next since it sets up a nice symmetrical
position where everyone starts right shoulder at the same time. And I dance
it the first time using hands to pull by. The hands helps them to turn the
easy way at the end of the line. You just need to tell them to make a loop
as they turn at the end of the line to take up some time, and NOT to offer a
hand - wait to see which hand you are being offered by the person coming out
of the hey - they know which one it is!
Once you drop the hands, remind them to look at the person they pass and
they will turn the easy way at the end of the line.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
During a workshop at the DownEast Festival which discussed effective use of words, I discovered that I came up with a teaching technique for the hey that I could use if I REALLY wanted to teach the hey to a room full of newbies (which is, like, never BTW).
Use hands.
For instance:
"Women turn by the right halfway. Now turn your partners by the left halfway.
Now the men turn by the right halfway, and turn your neighbor halfway...."
"Now do it again, but leave out the hands (but take them if it helps).
___ two WOmen BY the RIGHT then PARTner by the LEFT
TWO MEN BY the RIGHT, NEIGHbor ___ by the LEFT
etc.
I have never used this in an actual dance, but I think it would work.
Dan
