Martha said, "I agree fully with Erik Hoffman. I can't fathom the no thumb
allemande. How the heck do you get any connection with it? Two flat surfaces
and only friction - you might as well just walk around the other person,
it's worse than a noodle arm. The way most people do get connection is to
bend the wrist to provide some contact for shared weight - and that hurts my
wrist horribly. So if someone gives me a no thumb allemande, I comply,
desperately trying not to have my wrist bent, and if it is someone who
doesn't bend the wrist, then there is no connection, no "shared weight" and
no chance if it's a 1 1/2 allemande to get around in time. Erik has always
taught the allemande hold as being a "hook", with the curled fingers
providing the connection, and I have stolen that description from him and
use it myself. The thumb is along for the ride but should not do any
squeezing or gripping, in fact, it can even lie flat next to the curled
fingers and not intersect the other thumb, as he
mentions in describing the star hold. Connection without thumb pain."
Maybe there is some confusion about what people mean by a "no thumb
allemande".
What I mean by a "no thumb allemande" is exactly what you describe: "the
allemande hold is a "hook", with the curled fingers providing the
connection. The thumb is along for the ride but should not do any squeezing
or gripping, and should lie flat next to the curled fingers and not
intersect the other thumb."
So, for me, the "no thumb allemande" is a good allemande grip but with the
thumbs NOT interlocked.
I occasionally meet people in the lines who offer me a flat hand with their
fingers straight (sometimes even splayed!) for an allemande. Very
uncomfortable and useless for zesty dancing.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
I have to speak up regarding telling people to lean back into a swing. I
don't think a top is a good analogy as a top is one solid item, not two
people trying to hold onto each other.
No one needs to lean back because centrifugal force is already pushing you
back! If anything, you are using the hand behind the other person's
shoulder to gently PULL IN just enough to counter the centrifugal force
that is pushing you out. That way each person supports his/her own weight.
There are too many women who throw their entire weight onto the man's arm.
I can't help but believe they heard some caller tell them to "lean back!"
The most serious injury I've had contra dancing had nothing to do with
dipping or twirling, but with women who throw their entire weight onto my
arm. When I dance lead, if I encounter a woman who leans back on me, I
simply walk the swing so there is no centrifugal force generated.
--
JoLaine Jones-Pokorney
"We are as gods and might as well get good at it!"
- Stewart Brand
Jean said, " Must disagree about leaning backwards (resisting each other,
leaning away within reason) and swing/allemande speed. The physical shapes
that spin best are cones (children's tops), small at the bottom, wider at
the top. Couple turns and pivots (in other social dance forms like waltz),
have the gent stepping almost between the woman's legs and have the woman
resisting the guy by dancing further back into his right hand than
usual...this sets up the 'wider at the top, narrow at the bottom" shape
conducive to faster smoother spins. Again, I said "within reason"....no
leaning away from the waist (the optimal form is a V not a Y). The inherent
joy of a good "V" with strong resistance (weight-giving)?is what makes the
buzz step swing so much more fun than the 'walk around' swing of modern
squares."
Well, if you stand a cone up without it spinning it will fall over; I don't
usually fall over when I stop spinning, so I guess the two systems aren't
really comparable :-)
Yes, you may end up with a slight V, but that happens because centrifugal
force is pulling you apart. The swing should be a gentle counter-balance.
Keep your own balance, relax, and move your feet faster to make the swing
faster.
Leaning is unnecessary, uncomfortable for your partner, and
counter-productive.
I teach waltz as well and would never dream of suggesting that the lady
should resist or push into his right hand. She is supposed to be following.
Why on earth would she resist him? The V will occur naturally through
centrifugal force as you speed up. Resisting/leaning just makes your
partner have to waste energy to stop you falling over.
Giving weight is also a greatly misunderstood term. It is nothing to do
with leaning. It is about controlling your centre of gravity and putting it
in the optimal position for whatever you are doing.
There is also the physics to consider. Getting further apart increases your
moment of inertia, and thus, for the same energy you have a lower angular
velocity. The closer you are together the faster you can spin. That is why
you interlock your feet in a waltz spin turn - you get close together and
reduce your moment of inertia.
I swing very fast with a good partner. Read more about my description of
how to achieve it at:
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/Contra.html#swinging
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
I agree fully with Erik Hoffman. I can't fathom the no thumb allemande. How the heck do you get any connection with it? Two flat surfaces and only friction - you might as well just walk around the other person, it's worse than a noodle arm. The way most people do get connection is to bend the wrist to provide some contact for shared weight - and that hurts my wrist horribly. So if someone gives me a no thumb allemande, I comply, desperately trying not to have my wrist bent, and if it is someone who doesn't bend the wrist, then there is no connection, no "shared weight" and no chance if it's a 1 1/2 allemande to get around in time. Erik has always taught the allemande hold as being a "hook", with the curled fingers providing the connection, and I have stolen that description from him and use it myself. The thumb is along for the ride but should not do any squeezing or gripping, in fact, it can even lie flat next to the curled fingers and not intersect the other thumb, as he mentions in describing the star hold. Connection without thumb pain. Thanks, Erik.
Martha
On Jul 1, 2013, at 9:00 AM, callers-request(a)sharedweight.net wrote:
> Send Callers mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: First-time Contra Dancers and similar figures (Read Weaver)
> 2. Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance (Greg McKenzie)
> 3. Re: Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance (JohnFreem(a)aol.com)
> 4. Re: Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance (barb kirchner)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 20:48:26 -0400
> From: Read Weaver <rweaver(a)igc.org>
> To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Callers] First-time Contra Dancers and similar figures
> Message-ID: <9D058E28-3D5B-46C1-ABA3-F5EE755519E7(a)igc.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Yeah, I don't understand the problem with no thumbs--I go out of my way to teach the no-thumb hold to beginners, mostly to avoid twisted thumbs from the person who doesn't let go in time. Is there some thought that it leads to the bent-wrist hold?
>
> On Jun 26, 2013, at 9:37 PM, Jacob Bloom wrote:
>
>> As for the no-thumb allemande: Years ago, I started having a problem with
>> my left thumb aching for days after a dance, from the allemande lefts.
>> This started almost 30 years ago, so I can't blame that problem on
>> advancing age. As far as I'm concerned, doing an allemande without locking
>> thumbs is an improvement which has been made necessary by the modern
>> tendency to do an allemande all the way around in four beats instead of six
>> or eight. I'm always delighted when I run into another dancer who gives me
>> a no-thumb allemande. Anything that prevents injury is a good thing.
>>
>> Jacob Bloom
>> jandnbloom(a)gmail.com
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 12:00 PM, <callers-request(a)sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 00:03:40 -0700
>>> From: Erik Hoffman <erik(a)erikhoffman.com>
>>> To: jean francis <catherineaura(a)yahoo.com>, Caller's discussion list
>>> <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
>>> Subject:
>>>
>>> Re: [Callers] First-time Contra Dancers and similar figures
>>>
>>> [1] An aside: many people call this the "wrist grip" form. I encourage
>>> us all to remove the word "grip" from out teaching lexicon, as gripping
>>> has led to griping, and that (IMHO) horrid no-thumb allemande... The
>>> connection is through hooks and surfaces to lean on, not through
>>> gripping. And, although I don't like the no thumb allemande, when do I
>>> teach this form of star, I encourage all five fingers, thumb included,
>>> going over the top of the wrist in front - no grip.
>>>
>>> erik hoffman
>>> ~oakland, ca
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 07:55:18 -0700
> From: Greg McKenzie <grekenzie(a)gmail.com>
> To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance
> Message-ID:
> <CAFqkWLt0qEFdYC4FFthx-K+8wi6yAGE=3-cKEGpBdOee5k5pWg(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> I just listened to "RadioLab" on NPR
>
> http://www.radiolab.org/
>
> The current show on "Inner Voices" is fascinating and has information about
> how the expectations of teachers (or callers) can affect performance. The
> impacts of simple word changes in how a task is described can make a
> dramatic difference in how people perform that task. The show talks about
> research on test performance as well as a study involving the performance
> of psychomotor skills (golf).
>
> This research dramatizes how small word choices and attitudes (or framings)
> by callers could change the competence of many people in the room enough to
> make the caller's job much easier or more difficult. Check it out.
>
> The segment about the specific research begins at about 11 minutes and 15
> seconds in. But the entire show is good.
>
> Makes me think about every time I have said: "Now this part of the dance is
> a little tricky."
>
> - Greg McKenzie
> West Coast, USA
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 11:09:28 -0400 (EDT)
> From: JohnFreem(a)aol.com
> To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance
> Message-ID: <99c29.775e271b.3f02f5a8(a)aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Great stuff, Greg!
>
> I learned many important things from some of the great callers early in my
> career. Larry Edelman taught me to teach about "places, not faces" while
> teaching squares. This can also apply to contras. Ted Sanella taught me to
> first tell who we were to look for, then what we were to do with them. These two
> tips have proven very helpful when working with all dancers.
>
> John B. Freeman, SFTPOCTJ
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 15:19:44 +0000
> From: barb kirchner <barbkirchner(a)hotmail.com>
> To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance
> Message-ID: <BLU177-W7967532EE4DEE44DCFFF1DE710(a)phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> THANKS for bringing up this important teaching technique.
>
> the way you phrase something can make ALL the difference.
>
> instead of "this is a little tricky", i go with "this LOOKS a little bit different, but you'll be surprised how easy it is!" or "here comes the fun part!"
>
> if you ACT like you KNOW they'll just be able to do it, well, that's what they'll do.
>
> barb
>
>
>
>> From: JohnFreem(a)aol.com
>> Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 11:09:28 -0400
>> To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance
>>
>> Great stuff, Greg!
>>
>> I learned many important things from some of the great callers early in my
>> career. Larry Edelman taught me to teach about "places, not faces" while
>> teaching squares. This can also apply to contras. Ted Sanella taught me to
>> first tell who we were to look for, then what we were to do with them. These two
>> tips have proven very helpful when working with all dancers.
>>
>> John B. Freeman, SFTPOCTJ
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
>> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>
>
> End of Callers Digest, Vol 107, Issue 1
> ***************************************
Laurie said, "Also, I have talked with many who have developed, as I have, a
shoulder/neck problem. This seems to come from inexperienced dancers or
assertive regular dancers (not terribly good dancers) when they FORCE a
turn, especially at an incorrect time.
"I'd love to hear from someone how to describe to a dancer who wants to
twirl what the correct timing is - can someone give me a good way to put
this out there?"
Hi Laurie,
Unless you are running a workshop that let's you go into more
detail, then the best way is probably to drip-feed hints and tips as you
teach the dances.
= = = = = = = = = =
Regarding timing, I emphasise that, while you can do what you want
in your own time and space, on beat #1 of the next phrase you and your
partner should be in the right place and facing the right way for the next
move.
So, when there is a change of direction, don't think of a move as
being 8 beats, think of it as being 6 beats plus 2 beats to transition to
the next move. This applies to, for example:
Down the hall & turn alone
Circle left/right
Star right/left
A simple flourish on the end of a swing such as an inside or outside turn
For the inexperienced: opening out from a swing into a line or circle
If the dancers are all doing the basic transitions well on beats 7 &
8 then just remind them occasionally that a twirl on the end of a swing has
to happen on beats 7 & 8 as well. Pick a dance where the transition into
the next move is demanding and remind them to finish their flourishes on
time.
Make sure the twirler knows that they are responsible for the
twirlee's timing and positioning as well as their own, and that they should
plan ahead.
= = = = = = = = = =
Regarding force, these are some of the points I make:
(Note: although contra dancing is not about lead and follow, a flourish such
as a twirl out of a swing often is - so I use the terms leader and follower
purely as indicators of who is leading and following in a flourish.)
Rule #1: Everyone is entitled to get on the dance floor and have fun without
getting hurt.
"Dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire", so RELAX!
A strong lead is about clarity, not strength.
(As an example, I often put my hand in an allemande position and get someone
to blow on it - as their breath hits my hand I do a complete spin. People
who want to spin don't usually need any force from their partner - they are
quite capable of spinning themselves! A strong platform can be useful to
push off, but if you try to push someone into a spin you are more likely to
push them off balance then to help them.)
When you are following, remember (as one excellent teacher used to say) "It
ain't my job to drag your ass across the floor!", so, when someone leads you
into a twirl or any other flourish, send the message straight from your
fingers to your toes and follow the lead - don't fight back!
Always start with ZERO tension and build up to what you need to execute the
move.
You aren't fighting each other - you are only fighting centrifugal force.
Unlike arm-wrestling, if your hand moves nearer to your body in an
allemande, YOU LOSE!
It's dancing not wrestling!
You are responsible for your own balance.
Leaning backwards in swings or allemandes doesn't make you go faster it just
makes your partner have to waste their energy holding you up.
= = = = = = = = = =
Of course, the people you most want to listen to these tips are
probably the ones who aren't listening!
If I seem a little passionate about this subject please forgive me,
but I have had two shoulder operations as a result of dancing, and am hoping
not to need another one.
Hope that helps! :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
In case you're calling on Thursday
Salute to Betsy Ross
Duple PROPER (because Betsy was proper)
A1 Long lines ("stripes") go forward and back (8); Ones swing in the
center, face down and pick up your 2s (8).
A2 All go down the hall (6), Thread the Needle** (4), come back up the
hall, bend to a hands across RH star (1s are below) (6)
B1 Turn this star once around (8), then with NEXT Ns LH star once around
8), face original Ns on the side (ones are still below the twos)
B2 Dosido this original N once around (8); just the Twos (who are above)
swing in the center (8), and back out PROPER into progressed places, ready
for long stripes/lines F/B.
**Thread the Needle:
Starts facing down. Ones are in the middle with the lady on the right.
Twos are on the outside. Everyone continues to hold hands through the
sequence.
Man 2 makes an arch -- the "eye" of the needle -- and moves across the set
toward woman 2, who leads the "thread" of hand-holding dancers through the
eye. The line unfurls with everyone facing up, with the twos still on the
outside, and the ones on the inside. A demo is often more helpful than a
verbal description.
My profound thanks to Bob Isaac, who looked at the original and said,
"Needs something." He was right, as he so often is.
April Blum
I just listened to "RadioLab" on NPR
http://www.radiolab.org/
The current show on "Inner Voices" is fascinating and has information about
how the expectations of teachers (or callers) can affect performance. The
impacts of simple word changes in how a task is described can make a
dramatic difference in how people perform that task. The show talks about
research on test performance as well as a study involving the performance
of psychomotor skills (golf).
This research dramatizes how small word choices and attitudes (or framings)
by callers could change the competence of many people in the room enough to
make the caller's job much easier or more difficult. Check it out.
The segment about the specific research begins at about 11 minutes and 15
seconds in. But the entire show is good.
Makes me think about every time I have said: "Now this part of the dance is
a little tricky."
- Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA
As for the no-thumb allemande: Years ago, I started having a problem with
my left thumb aching for days after a dance, from the allemande lefts.
This started almost 30 years ago, so I can't blame that problem on
advancing age. As far as I'm concerned, doing an allemande without locking
thumbs is an improvement which has been made necessary by the modern
tendency to do an allemande all the way around in four beats instead of six
or eight. I'm always delighted when I run into another dancer who gives me
a no-thumb allemande. Anything that prevents injury is a good thing.
Jacob Bloom
jandnbloom(a)gmail.com
On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 12:00 PM, <callers-request(a)sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 00:03:40 -0700
> From: Erik Hoffman <erik(a)erikhoffman.com>
> To: jean francis <catherineaura(a)yahoo.com>, Caller's discussion list
> <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject:
>
> Re: [Callers] First-time Contra Dancers and similar figures
> Message-ID: <51CA924C.8060601(a)erikhoffman.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
>
> [1] An aside: many people call this the "wrist grip" form. I encourage
> us all to remove the word "grip" from out teaching lexicon, as gripping
> has led to griping, and that (IMHO) horrid no-thumb allemande... The
> connection is through hooks and surfaces to lean on, not through
> gripping. And, although I don't like the no thumb allemande, when do I
> teach this form of star, I encourage all five fingers, thumb included,
> going over the top of the wrist in front - no grip.
>
> erik hoffman
> ~oakland, ca
>
Greg, you've been writing about integrating new dancers by getting
the experienced dancers to dance with them and even teach them the
figures. For a long time I've thought that this was a bit weird- how
could this ever work?
Then my brain finally kicked in and I realized that we live in two
very different worlds. Although it's been some time since I called
in California, I remember that the dancers there were kind, gentle
and very relaxed. They were quite a contrast to some of the dancers
back east. Maybe your method works well because of the kinds of
people who live in your area. Over the years I've seen some
hostility and resentment towards new dancers in my small part of the
world.
In one dance community, the dancers were so hostile to the new
dancers that someone started a separate dance series for the sole
purpose of having a beginner friendly dance. And before the center
line was abolished at Glen Echo, a very large percentage of
experienced dancers had absolutely no interest in dancing with
beginners.
In my area we've always had a beginning lesson and the caller always
teaches the figures. It's worked there for decades. It's the
tradition. If it ain't broke why fix it? I'm thinking that to get
the experienced dancers to teach the figures might be detrimental in
some dance communities.
This is a complicated issue and involves more than language. There's
also understanding people and their values, beliefs etc. etc.
I can't remember exactly what your background is but I'm very
interested in learning more about language and it's use. Is there a
good website or book that you could recommend?
Tom
For dances where the ends get sucked in and spat out again in the middle of
the sequence, a useful rule is:
Don't worry if you are on the wrong side when you get sucked in, just do the
move with whoever you are with - you will get spat out again soon and can
then get ready for when you really join in again.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
