Jim - I don't think I am alone in wondering how you managed this without telling the dancers. I take that to mean you didn't make it gender free by the terminology you used (jets or whatever) but by the kinds of dances you chose. I'd love to read more details about what this entailed. Please share more! Amy 206 330 7408 Amy(a)calleramy.com On Jun 1, 2015, at 5:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were gender free. It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to call gender free. If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, arcadian35(a)gmail.com. Thanks, Jim Hemphill _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Check out Brooke Friendly and Chris Sackett's English Country dances - they use "geographic" terms, and structure the dances without gender roles. It's different, but the dance does keep changing, it's a live art. http://www.brookefriendlydance.com/ Aside from Mr. Hemphill's effort recently here described, I know of no comparable endeavor in contra dance choreography - I suppose we're more traditional than ECD. Does anyone have info to share? Roger Hayes Jim - I don't think I am alone in wondering how you managed this without telling the dancers. I take that to mean you didn't make it gender free by the terminology you used (jets or whatever) but by the kinds of dances you chose. I'd love to read more details about what this entailed. Please share more! Amy 206 330 7408 Amy(a)calleramy.com On Jun 1, 2015, at 5:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were gender free. It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to call gender free. If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, arcadian35(a)gmail.com. Thanks, Jim Hemphill _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Kalia Kliban via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: Jim, as I look at your set of dances the first question that occurs to me is how you dealt with the improper formation without reference to gender/dance-role. Kalia _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now. Cheers, Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were gender free. It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to call gender free. If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, arcadian35(a)gmail.com. Thanks, Jim Hemphill _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

With regard to Ron's questions 1. Would be easily covered by 1st or 2nd corners walk forward to a wave 2. Again can be done with reference to corners 3. Not so familiar with these. 4. You usually only need an obvious first pass person so not an issue I think 5. If you're facing out you turn, if you're facing across you walk is how I call it anyway Bob On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Also with regard to Ron's questions, numbers 2 and 3 (who-leads-whom and who-walks-forward) can be handled by using the terms "clockwise" and "counterclockwise." As to 4 (who passes whom for a hey), I agree with Bob that if the dance is good, it should be obvious, but even if not, "pass left shoulders in the middle for a hey for four" can only be interpreted one way, so that fixes the issue of referring to roles.

I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is actually quite doable to call a dance without referring to roles at all, even without resorting to first or second corners. Perry asked for an example of a dance with global terminology used. Here's one (just picking a common, typical dance): Square Affair, by Becky Hill A1 Long Lines, 1st corners chain (or just say "chain" if you're dealing with experienced dancers and don't want to use the corners terminology)

A2 Balance and pull by partner, pull by neighbor, balance and pull by partner, pull by neighbor B1 New neighbors balance and swing B2 Circle 3/4, partner swing

Also with regard to Ron's questions, numbers 2 and 3 (who-leads-whom and who-walks-forward) can be handled by using the terms "clockwise" and "counterclockwise." As to 4 (who passes whom for a hey), I agree with Bob that if the dance is good, it should be obvious, but even if not, "pass left shoulders in the middle for a hey for four" can only be interpreted one way, so that fixes the issue of referring to roles. Roll-aways can be handled with "roll away from the left to the right" or "roll away from the right to the left." I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is actually quite doable to call a dance without referring to roles at all, even without resorting to first or second corners. Perry asked for an example of a dance with global terminology used. Here's one (just picking a common, typical dance): Square Affair, by Becky Hill A1 Long Lines, 1st corners chain (or just say "chain" if you're dealing with experienced dancers and don't want to use the corners terminology) A2 Balance and pull by partner, pull by neighbor, balance and pull by partner, pull by neighbor B1 New neighbors balance and swing B2 Circle 3/4, partner swing Perry, you also mentioned that you are trying to figure out how global terminology would work for proper dances. I have always called proper dances using global terminology without even thinking about it. For Chorus Jig, for instance, why would you ever need to use the term "gent" or "lady"? Down the outside, back, down the middle, back and neighbor around-the-waist turn, 1s turn contra corners, 1s balance and swing. Nothing that any particular role does that the other role isn't doing at the same time. On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 9:41 AM, Bob Morgan via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: -- David Casserly (cell) 781 258-2761

On Jun 1, 2015, at 6:55 PM, Michael Fuerst via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: How can one simply, consistently and clearly designate two persons to participate in an allemande ? Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 On Monday, June 1, 2015 5:41 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: RE: Dave: Clockwise / counterclockwise - too wordy, and some people have trouble with this regardless. Hey: What about on the left diagonal? Along the set? I also really don't like the blaming of the dance if it's not 100% intuitive. Plenty of dances flow great but have a counter-intuitive element. Restricting dances to those without counter-intuitive moves is basically saying, "Sorry, if we want to be genderfree, we need to put a cap on how difficult a dance is. Sorry genderfree dancers, you aren't allowed to dance too advanced." That's a big problem. Rollaways can *not* be handled from left to right - who does the rolling is not indicated at all! On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 1:23 PM, Dave Casserly &lt;david.j.casserly(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Proper Dance, gender free yet not too simple A1 Neighbor allemande left 1 1/2 1st corners allemande right 1 1/2 A2 Scoop your partner as you go by, star promenade then butterfly 2nd corners swing in the center, then separate B1 Partner balance and swing B2 Take hands in a ring, balance and petranella Couple 2 swing in the center, end facing up Dances can have variety and challenges without gender reference. In this dance, as long as you make clear in the teaching that after the neighbor allemande left 1 1/2 if you are facing in, you are a 1st corner so you allemande right, if facing out you are a 2nd corner, get ready to be scooped you can end the swings any way you want. Ron, you are certainly right that not all dances can be easily taught in this manner, but in no way are all of these type of dances simple. I struggled with translating a "choose your noun" for ladies or gents because that is how I learned and think about the dance roles. The translation process adds a layer of complexity for me. I am just offering a different approach that works for me. Thanks Jim On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 3:40 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote:

On Jun 1, 2015, at 11:03 PM, Amy Carroll via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: I'm feeling really thick in the head in reading these discussion thread. How do you explain to the dancers who is a first corner and who is second corner. How do you explain swinging and who should end in which spot? Isn't 1st corner and 2nd corner the way you are using them just another substitute for gents/ladies; jets/rubies; etc etc etc? Wouldn't new dancers be confused about being a #1 or #2 couple but also a 1st or 2nd corner at the same time? This seems super confusing to newer dancers, but I haven't seen the program you called. I'd love to know more. It's very intriguing. Amy Carroll 206-330-7308 calleramy.com _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. &lt;winston(a)slac.stanford.edu&gt; wrote: I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global calling since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller self improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in not gender free English as well as for gender free English I think I can answer. The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published the most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left file, ladies line is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents place are first diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved for contra corners and the immediate neighbor in a square. However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, first gent and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second gent). If you apply that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was suggesting, the ladies are on the first corners, the gents on the second corners. The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we now do with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make a wave in the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in. You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to becket, where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply before you becketize, which would be my preference. Does that clear it up ? Alan Sent from my iPad On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: > Andrea, how would you handle the following: > > 1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip to Lambertville, et all? > > 2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star? > > 3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, Jurassic Redheads, etc. > > 4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey. > > 5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate? > > 6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways? > > None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated. > > Ron > >> On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >> In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now. >> Cheers, >> Andrea >> >> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >> >> On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >> >>> The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were gender free. >>> >>> It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to call gender free. >>> >>> If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, arcadian35(a)gmail.com. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Jim Hemphill >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

If you want to redefine "corner" as a person, not a position... On Jun 2, 2015 10:41 AM, "Perry Shafran via Callers" < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: > After thinking about this I think I am starting to agree with Andrea in > that corners (first & second) just might be the perfect term to use. In > ECD, where most dances are proper, the first corner is gent 1 and lady 2, > because in proper dances there are different genders on the diagonal. In > an improper dance (most contra dances), there are same genders on the > diagonal. So therefore the ladies would be in the first corner positions > (same positions as in a proper English dance), and the gents are the second > corners. In a swing, first corners end up on the right. I think by > thinking about it this way you could do any dance, easy to challenging, > with the corner terminology in place. Just substitute any incidence of > "gents" in your choreography with "second corner" and "ladies" with "first > corner". > > Perry > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Andrea Nettleton via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; > *To:* Michael Fuerst &lt;mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com&gt; > *Cc:* &quot;callers(a)sharedweight.net&quot; &lt;callers(a)sharedweight.net&gt; > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:31 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling > > Hey Michael, > I think you mean that those who began the dance as first corners, will > always end swings on the right, just as they are standing relative to their > partner in the hands four. > > The dance is obscure to the dancers only to the degree the caller is > unable to elucidate it. It may take effort for callers to learn to teach > as effectively this way, but that doesn't make it less clear. When I > called to the SFQCD, ninety percent of the dancers were men. Even with > bands and bare arms, so as clear an indication of role as they could > achieve, they struggled with who ends where after stuff. What if I could > have given them the tool of knowing their corners, and in addition, the > clear instruction to note carefully which hand they held when standing next > to their partner? That would always be their connector hand when standing > as a couple after swings, chains, and R&L thrus. The twofold active > attention might have served them far better than the arbitrary labels. > Understanding that the pattern of the dance depends on knowing your > geography makes sense. Adding into that the need to remember a label > doesn't improve the odds the geography will stick, at least it didn't > there. In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing > your place in the dance. People mess up, but the place is always there. > > AN > > > Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask > > > > On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: > > Consider this dance > > E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 > > A1 Balance and swing neighbor. > > A2 Men allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. > > B1 Long lines forward and back. Women chain to neighbor. > > B2 Women allemande right (4). > 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until > neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). > Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new > neighbors (4). > > Using this thread's suggestions, I think this becomes (as long as dancers understand that those starting as *second corners* always end the swing on the right) > > E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 > > A1 Balance and swing neighbor. > > A2 *First corners* allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. > > B1 Long lines forward and back. *Second corners* chain to neighbor. > > B2 *Second corners* allemande right (4). > 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until > neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). > Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new > neighbors (4) > > This makes the dance obscure to beginning and intermediate dancers. Seems best to have names corresponding to the men's and women's roles, rather than to have dancer's determine which corners they are at any point in the dance. > > > Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 > > > > On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:26 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: > > > Actually Alan, because we dance improper most frequently, and becket > almost as much, I think I really don't want the labels applied to people so > they stick. I'm just using the word corner the way Brooke and Chris use > diagonal. In contra, we already have a use for the word diagonal, meaning > the next pair along across the set to the right or left. The corner > reference we have is actually close to right, probably having grown out of > triple minor dances. Right diagonal is first corner, Left diagonal is > second. Make it fit in a hands four and you have pairs of corners along > opposite angles. It's a place not a person. Then I can write a dance > beginning with a second corner chain, and it will be those formerly > identified as gents, but will work totally fine. If the dance were proper, > you could still have a second diagonals chain and it would be one of each > 'role'. A direct transfer of the system to contra is not as useful as > adapting, IMHO. > Andrea > > Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask > > On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. &lt;winston(a)slac.stanford.edu&gt; > wrote: > > I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global > calling since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller > self improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in > not gender free English as well as for gender free English I think I can > answer. > > The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published > the most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left file, > ladies line is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents place > are first diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved for > contra corners and the immediate neighbor in a square. > > However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, > first gent and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second > gent). If you apply that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was > suggesting, the ladies are on the first corners, the gents on the second > corners. > > The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we > now do with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make > a wave in the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in. > > > You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to > becket, where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply > before you becketize, which would be my preference. > > Does that clear it up ? > > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: > > Andrea, how would you handle the following: > 1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip to > Lambertville, et all? > 2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star? > 3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, > Jurassic Redheads, etc. > 4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey. > 5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate? > 6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't > mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways? > None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated. > Ron > On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: > > In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at > Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of > global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, > everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most > unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of > first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same > role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to > gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for > example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in > those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to > refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But > since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems > unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are > trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now. > Cheers, > Andrea > > Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask > > On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: > > The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment > in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis > using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a > great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings > dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several > dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or > unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that > there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 > than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were > gender free. > > It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but > it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to > call gender free. > > If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of > gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, > arcadian35(a)gmail.com. > > Thanks, > Jim Hemphill > > > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > >

It's the person in that position at the start of the dance, and that designation stays with you throughout the dance. If you switch throughout the dance, then your corner designation may change. It also has meaning in dance terms, where larks/ravens etc are just made up names. As a matter of fact I'm more likely to remember my corner designation than whether I am a lark or a raven. Perry ------------------------------ *From:* Ron Blechner &lt;contraron(a)gmail.com&gt; *To:* Perry Shafran &lt;pshaf(a)yahoo.com&gt; *Cc:* Caller's discussion list &lt;callers(a)sharedweight.net&gt;et>; Andrea Nettleton &lt;twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net&gt; *Sent:* Tuesday, June 2, 2015 8:45 AM *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling If you want to redefine "corner" as a person, not a position... On Jun 2, 2015 10:41 AM, "Perry Shafran via Callers" < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: After thinking about this I think I am starting to agree with Andrea in that corners (first & second) just might be the perfect term to use. In ECD, where most dances are proper, the first corner is gent 1 and lady 2, because in proper dances there are different genders on the diagonal. In an improper dance (most contra dances), there are same genders on the diagonal. So therefore the ladies would be in the first corner positions (same positions as in a proper English dance), and the gents are the second corners. In a swing, first corners end up on the right. I think by thinking about it this way you could do any dance, easy to challenging, with the corner terminology in place. Just substitute any incidence of "gents" in your choreography with "second corner" and "ladies" with "first corner". Perry ------------------------------ *From:* Andrea Nettleton via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; *To:* Michael Fuerst &lt;mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com&gt; *Cc:* &quot;callers(a)sharedweight.net&quot; &lt;callers(a)sharedweight.net&gt; *Sent:* Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:31 AM *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling Hey Michael, I think you mean that those who began the dance as first corners, will always end swings on the right, just as they are standing relative to their partner in the hands four. The dance is obscure to the dancers only to the degree the caller is unable to elucidate it. It may take effort for callers to learn to teach as effectively this way, but that doesn't make it less clear. When I called to the SFQCD, ninety percent of the dancers were men. Even with bands and bare arms, so as clear an indication of role as they could achieve, they struggled with who ends where after stuff. What if I could have given them the tool of knowing their corners, and in addition, the clear instruction to note carefully which hand they held when standing next to their partner? That would always be their connector hand when standing as a couple after swings, chains, and R&L thrus. The twofold active attention might have served them far better than the arbitrary labels. Understanding that the pattern of the dance depends on knowing your geography makes sense. Adding into that the need to remember a label doesn't improve the odds the geography will stick, at least it didn't there. In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing your place in the dance. People mess up, but the place is always there. AN Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: Consider this dance E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 A1 Balance and swing neighbor. A2 Men allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. B1 Long lines forward and back. Women chain to neighbor. B2 Women allemande right (4). 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new neighbors (4). Using this thread's suggestions, I think this becomes (as long as dancers understand that those starting as *second corners* always end the swing on the right) E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 A1 Balance and swing neighbor. A2 *First corners* allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. B1 Long lines forward and back. *Second corners* chain to neighbor. B2 *Second corners* allemande right (4). 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new neighbors (4) This makes the dance obscure to beginning and intermediate dancers. Seems best to have names corresponding to the men's and women's roles, rather than to have dancer's determine which corners they are at any point in the dance. Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:26 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: Actually Alan, because we dance improper most frequently, and becket almost as much, I think I really don't want the labels applied to people so they stick. I'm just using the word corner the way Brooke and Chris use diagonal. In contra, we already have a use for the word diagonal, meaning the next pair along across the set to the right or left. The corner reference we have is actually close to right, probably having grown out of triple minor dances. Right diagonal is first corner, Left diagonal is second. Make it fit in a hands four and you have pairs of corners along opposite angles. It's a place not a person. Then I can write a dance beginning with a second corner chain, and it will be those formerly identified as gents, but will work totally fine. If the dance were proper, you could still have a second diagonals chain and it would be one of each 'role'. A direct transfer of the system to contra is not as useful as adapting, IMHO. Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. &lt;winston(a)slac.stanford.edu&gt; wrote: I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global calling since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller self improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in not gender free English as well as for gender free English I think I can answer. The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published the most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left file, ladies line is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents place are first diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved for contra corners and the immediate neighbor in a square. However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, first gent and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second gent). If you apply that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was suggesting, the ladies are on the first corners, the gents on the second corners. The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we now do with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make a wave in the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in. You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to becket, where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply before you becketize, which would be my preference. Does that clear it up ? Alan Sent from my iPad On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: Andrea, how would you handle the following: 1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip to Lambertville, et all? 2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star? 3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, Jurassic Redheads, etc. 4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey. 5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate? 6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways? None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated. Ron On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now. Cheers, Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were gender free. It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to call gender free. If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, arcadian35(a)gmail.com. Thanks, Jim Hemphill _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

I think Ron's point is that with this set of terms (i.e. 1st/2nd corner refers to the person rather than the position), if we're in an improper context, we've basically circled back around to labeling the roles, only these role labels seem unideal because they have lots of syllables and sound relatively similar. At the point at which we're talking about "first corner" and "second corner", isn't it less of a mouthful, easier to understand, and easier for experienced dancers to convert into terms they understand to have a set of terms like jets[gems]/rubies or larks/ravens?

On Jun 2, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Maia McCormick via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: I think Ron's point is that with this set of terms (i.e. 1st/2nd corner refers to the person rather than the position), if we're in an improper context, we've basically circled back around to labeling the roles, only these role labels seem unideal because they have lots of syllables and sound relatively similar. At the point at which we're talking about "first corner" and "second corner", isn't it less of a mouthful, easier to understand, and easier for experienced dancers to convert into terms they understand to have a set of terms like jets[gems]/rubies or larks/ravens? _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

On Jun 2, 2015, at 2:16 PM, Ron Blechner &lt;contraron(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Comparing ECD and Contra has uses. But only to a point. Consider: ECD walkthroughs often take many times longer than contra walkthroughs. The pace and tempo of ECD and Contra are often exceedingly different. Contra dancers often have far less time to react to words they hear. Contra has medleys. Contra and ECD pull from different move sets, and while similar, is a factor. Contra dances need to work with a variety of musical tunes. So with those in mind, rhetorical statements like "If they were that awkward, they would have long since been replaced." don't work. Relying on "it works in ECD so it works in contra" - or vice versa - is not feasible. Also, they *have* been replaced. Contra grew out of ECD, and the terms changed to fit. The fact that contra grew out of using corners is evidence that corners doesn't work for contra. Else, why'd it ever grow away from those terms? > On Jun 2, 2015 12:02 PM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: > English callers and dancers clearly have no trouble saying or understanding these terms. If they were that awkward, they would long since have been replaced. I think we see positions as roles purely from habit. If I taught a roomful of kids who had never danced using no roles, would they think of having danced a role? > > > It's each leader's call how to teach ballroom hold. I suggest getting becket, the noting which hand you are holding with your P, so you can remember to end holding it again. Keep holding that hand as you face P. Place those same hands on your partners scapula, the dancer using Rhd below, left hand user above. The free indicator hands are then loosely connected. Boom, ballroom hold. You still use the loose hand to indicate which way to face after the swing and let go of them, opening up like a book, so you are again holding the connector hands as in the beginning. > > I'm wondering what kinds of groups are even contemplating using non gendered terms, or positional calling. Experienced groups of dancers currently using 'gents and ladies' seem unlikely to do so, and it would likely have little effect on the way people dance. Most would continue dancing whatever role they usually did, and pretty soon, any newcomer could see at a glance that if male, one dances Jet, and if female, Ruby. So we'd just end up with another pair of terms associated with traditional gender roles. Positional calling prevents the reassociation of gender with a new term, but I bet the structure of the dance would be largely unchanged. > OTOH, if we are talking about groups which have always been gender free, or new groups which fully intend to be gender free, I believe there would be little resistance to using global terminology, and using corners as a position, not a person, is the ultimate neutral mode. The assumption there is that all dancers are created equal, and it's a team sport, where each needs to understand the whole dance and their place in it. > The topic has been broached, as I understand it, because we care about making the dance space, or some dance spaces, a safe place to not worry about gender identity, because some people are very sensitive/are exploring/have identified in a non traditional way. If we are sincere in our wish to make them comfortable, that care does not end because it requires more effort to learn to understand and teach a particular way. Inconvenient isn't relevant. We are creative people. If we wanted to, we could shorten those terms for prompting (firsts and seconds). We can train ourselves to deeply understand how the positions work and evolve cleaner, more efficient teaches. The search, to my understanding, was for an optimal universal way of calling gender free contra. If we are ok with sub optimal, we could just keep bands and bares, or the occasional moon and stars, which have been used for decades. I will use whatever any given community wants me to use. If I were faced with offering an option to my home gender free group, I would do my best first to try to be a kick ass global terminology caller, before giving in to naming roles, because I truly believe that method is more neutral than any other. > Cheers, > Andrea > > Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask > >> On Jun 2, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Maia McCormick via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >> >> I think Ron's point is that with this set of terms (i.e. 1st/2nd corner refers to the person rather than the position), if we're in an improper context, we've basically circled back around to labeling the roles, only these role labels seem unideal because they have lots of syllables and sound relatively similar. At the point at which we're talking about "first corner" and "second corner", isn't it less of a mouthful, easier to understand, and easier for experienced dancers to convert into terms they understand to have a set of terms like jets[gems]/rubies or larks/ravens? >> >>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Perry Shafran via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>> It's the person in that position at the start of the dance, and that designation stays with you throughout the dance. If you switch throughout the dance, then your corner designation may change. It also has meaning in dance terms, where larks/ravens etc are just made up names. As a matter of fact I'm more likely to remember my corner designation than whether I am a lark or a raven. >>> >>> Perry >>> >>> From: Ron Blechner &lt;contraron(a)gmail.com&gt; >>> To: Perry Shafran &lt;pshaf(a)yahoo.com&gt; >>> Cc: Caller's discussion list &lt;callers(a)sharedweight.net&gt;et>; Andrea Nettleton &lt;twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net&gt; >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 8:45 AM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling >>> >>> If you want to redefine "corner" as a person, not a position... >>> On Jun 2, 2015 10:41 AM, "Perry Shafran via Callers" &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>> >>> >>> After thinking about this I think I am starting to agree with Andrea in that corners (first & second) just might be the perfect term to use. In ECD, where most dances are proper, the first corner is gent 1 and lady 2, because in proper dances there are different genders on the diagonal. In an improper dance (most contra dances), there are same genders on the diagonal. So therefore the ladies would be in the first corner positions (same positions as in a proper English dance), and the gents are the second corners. In a swing, first corners end up on the right. I think by thinking about it this way you could do any dance, easy to challenging, with the corner terminology in place. Just substitute any incidence of "gents" in your choreography with "second corner" and "ladies" with "first corner". >>> >>> Perry >>> >>> From: Andrea Nettleton via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; >>> To: Michael Fuerst &lt;mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com&gt; >>> Cc: &quot;callers(a)sharedweight.net&quot; &lt;callers(a)sharedweight.net&gt; >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:31 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling >>> >>> Hey Michael, >>> I think you mean that those who began the dance as first corners, will always end swings on the right, just as they are standing relative to their partner in the hands four. >>> >>> The dance is obscure to the dancers only to the degree the caller is unable to elucidate it. It may take effort for callers to learn to teach as effectively this way, but that doesn't make it less clear. When I called to the SFQCD, ninety percent of the dancers were men. Even with bands and bare arms, so as clear an indication of role as they could achieve, they struggled with who ends where after stuff. What if I could have given them the tool of knowing their corners, and in addition, the clear instruction to note carefully which hand they held when standing next to their partner? That would always be their connector hand when standing as a couple after swings, chains, and R&L thrus. The twofold active attention might have served them far better than the arbitrary labels. Understanding that the pattern of the dance depends on knowing your geography makes sense. Adding into that the need to remember a label doesn't improve the odds the geography will stick, at least it didn't there. In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing your place in the dance. People mess up, but the place is always there. >>> >>> AN >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>> Consider this dance >>>> >>>> E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 A1 Balance and swing neighbor. A2 Men allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. B1 Long lines forward and back. Women chain to neighbor. B2 Women allemande right (4). 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new neighbors (4). >>>> Using this thread's suggestions, I think this becomes (as long as dancers understand that those starting as second corners always end the swing on the right) >>>> E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 A1 Balance and swing neighbor. A2 First corners allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. B1 Long lines forward and back. Second corners chain to neighbor. B2 Second corners allemande right (4). 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new neighbors (4) >>>> This makes the dance obscure to beginning and intermediate dancers. Seems best to have names corresponding to the men's and women's roles, rather than to have dancer's determine which corners they are at any point in the dance. >>>> >>>> Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:26 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Actually Alan, because we dance improper most frequently, and becket almost as much, I think I really don't want the labels applied to people so they stick. I'm just using the word corner the way Brooke and Chris use diagonal. In contra, we already have a use for the word diagonal, meaning the next pair along across the set to the right or left. The corner reference we have is actually close to right, probably having grown out of triple minor dances. Right diagonal is first corner, Left diagonal is second. Make it fit in a hands four and you have pairs of corners along opposite angles. It's a place not a person. Then I can write a dance beginning with a second corner chain, and it will be those formerly identified as gents, but will work totally fine. If the dance were proper, you could still have a second diagonals chain and it would be one of each 'role'. A direct transfer of the system to contra is not as useful as adapting, IMHO. >>>> Andrea >>>> >>>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >>>> >>>>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. &lt;winston(a)slac.stanford.edu&gt; wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global calling since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller self improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in not gender free English as well as for gender free English I think I can answer. >>>> >>>> The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published the most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left file, ladies line is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents place are first diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved for contra corners and the immediate neighbor in a square. >>>> >>>> However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, first gent and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second gent). If you apply that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was suggesting, the ladies are on the first corners, the gents on the second corners. >>>> >>>> The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we now do with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make a wave in the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in. >>>> >>>> >>>> You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to becket, where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply before you becketize, which would be my preference. >>>> >>>> Does that clear it up ? >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>>> Andrea, how would you handle the following: >>>>> 1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip to Lambertville, et all? >>>>> 2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star? >>>>> 3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, Jurassic Redheads, etc. >>>>> 4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey. >>>>> 5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate? >>>>> 6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways? >>>>> None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated. >>>>> Ron >>>>> On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now. >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Andrea >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were gender free. >>>>>> >>>>>> It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to call gender free. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, arcadian35(a)gmail.com. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Jim Hemphill >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Callers mailing list >>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Callers mailing list >>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

On Jun 2, 2015, at 2:16 PM, Ron Blechner &lt;contraron(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Comparing ECD and Contra has uses. But only to a point. Consider: ECD walkthroughs often take many times longer than contra walkthroughs. The pace and tempo of ECD and Contra are often exceedingly different. Contra dancers often have far less time to react to words they hear. Contra has medleys. Contra and ECD pull from different move sets, and while similar, is a factor. Contra dances need to work with a variety of musical tunes. So with those in mind, rhetorical statements like "If they were that awkward, they would have long since been replaced." don't work. Relying on "it works in ECD so it works in contra" - or vice versa - is not feasible. Also, they *have* been replaced. Contra grew out of ECD, and the terms changed to fit. The fact that contra grew out of using corners is evidence that corners doesn't work for contra. Else, why'd it ever grow away from those terms? > On Jun 2, 2015 12:02 PM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: > English callers and dancers clearly have no trouble saying or understanding these terms. If they were that awkward, they would long since have been replaced. I think we see positions as roles purely from habit. If I taught a roomful of kids who had never danced using no roles, would they think of having danced a role? > > > It's each leader's call how to teach ballroom hold. I suggest getting becket, the noting which hand you are holding with your P, so you can remember to end holding it again. Keep holding that hand as you face P. Place those same hands on your partners scapula, the dancer using Rhd below, left hand user above. The free indicator hands are then loosely connected. Boom, ballroom hold. You still use the loose hand to indicate which way to face after the swing and let go of them, opening up like a book, so you are again holding the connector hands as in the beginning. > > I'm wondering what kinds of groups are even contemplating using non gendered terms, or positional calling. Experienced groups of dancers currently using 'gents and ladies' seem unlikely to do so, and it would likely have little effect on the way people dance. Most would continue dancing whatever role they usually did, and pretty soon, any newcomer could see at a glance that if male, one dances Jet, and if female, Ruby. So we'd just end up with another pair of terms associated with traditional gender roles. Positional calling prevents the reassociation of gender with a new term, but I bet the structure of the dance would be largely unchanged. > OTOH, if we are talking about groups which have always been gender free, or new groups which fully intend to be gender free, I believe there would be little resistance to using global terminology, and using corners as a position, not a person, is the ultimate neutral mode. The assumption there is that all dancers are created equal, and it's a team sport, where each needs to understand the whole dance and their place in it. > The topic has been broached, as I understand it, because we care about making the dance space, or some dance spaces, a safe place to not worry about gender identity, because some people are very sensitive/are exploring/have identified in a non traditional way. If we are sincere in our wish to make them comfortable, that care does not end because it requires more effort to learn to understand and teach a particular way. Inconvenient isn't relevant. We are creative people. If we wanted to, we could shorten those terms for prompting (firsts and seconds). We can train ourselves to deeply understand how the positions work and evolve cleaner, more efficient teaches. The search, to my understanding, was for an optimal universal way of calling gender free contra. If we are ok with sub optimal, we could just keep bands and bares, or the occasional moon and stars, which have been used for decades. I will use whatever any given community wants me to use. If I were faced with offering an option to my home gender free group, I would do my best first to try to be a kick ass global terminology caller, before giving in to naming roles, because I truly believe that method is more neutral than any other. > Cheers, > Andrea > > Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask > >> On Jun 2, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Maia McCormick via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >> >> I think Ron's point is that with this set of terms (i.e. 1st/2nd corner refers to the person rather than the position), if we're in an improper context, we've basically circled back around to labeling the roles, only these role labels seem unideal because they have lots of syllables and sound relatively similar. At the point at which we're talking about "first corner" and "second corner", isn't it less of a mouthful, easier to understand, and easier for experienced dancers to convert into terms they understand to have a set of terms like jets[gems]/rubies or larks/ravens? >> >>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Perry Shafran via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>> It's the person in that position at the start of the dance, and that designation stays with you throughout the dance. If you switch throughout the dance, then your corner designation may change. It also has meaning in dance terms, where larks/ravens etc are just made up names. As a matter of fact I'm more likely to remember my corner designation than whether I am a lark or a raven. >>> >>> Perry >>> >>> From: Ron Blechner &lt;contraron(a)gmail.com&gt; >>> To: Perry Shafran &lt;pshaf(a)yahoo.com&gt; >>> Cc: Caller's discussion list &lt;callers(a)sharedweight.net&gt;et>; Andrea Nettleton &lt;twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net&gt; >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 8:45 AM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling >>> >>> If you want to redefine "corner" as a person, not a position... >>> On Jun 2, 2015 10:41 AM, "Perry Shafran via Callers" &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>> >>> >>> After thinking about this I think I am starting to agree with Andrea in that corners (first & second) just might be the perfect term to use. In ECD, where most dances are proper, the first corner is gent 1 and lady 2, because in proper dances there are different genders on the diagonal. In an improper dance (most contra dances), there are same genders on the diagonal. So therefore the ladies would be in the first corner positions (same positions as in a proper English dance), and the gents are the second corners. In a swing, first corners end up on the right. I think by thinking about it this way you could do any dance, easy to challenging, with the corner terminology in place. Just substitute any incidence of "gents" in your choreography with "second corner" and "ladies" with "first corner". >>> >>> Perry >>> >>> From: Andrea Nettleton via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; >>> To: Michael Fuerst &lt;mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com&gt; >>> Cc: &quot;callers(a)sharedweight.net&quot; &lt;callers(a)sharedweight.net&gt; >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:31 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling >>> >>> Hey Michael, >>> I think you mean that those who began the dance as first corners, will always end swings on the right, just as they are standing relative to their partner in the hands four. >>> >>> The dance is obscure to the dancers only to the degree the caller is unable to elucidate it. It may take effort for callers to learn to teach as effectively this way, but that doesn't make it less clear. When I called to the SFQCD, ninety percent of the dancers were men. Even with bands and bare arms, so as clear an indication of role as they could achieve, they struggled with who ends where after stuff. What if I could have given them the tool of knowing their corners, and in addition, the clear instruction to note carefully which hand they held when standing next to their partner? That would always be their connector hand when standing as a couple after swings, chains, and R&L thrus. The twofold active attention might have served them far better than the arbitrary labels. Understanding that the pattern of the dance depends on knowing your geography makes sense. Adding into that the need to remember a label doesn't improve the odds the geography will stick, at least it didn't there. In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing your place in the dance. People mess up, but the place is always there. >>> >>> AN >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>> Consider this dance >>>> >>>> E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 >>>> >>>> A1 Balance and swing neighbor. >>>> >>>> A2 Men allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. >>>> >>>> B1 Long lines forward and back. Women chain to neighbor. >>>> >>>> B2 Women allemande right (4). >>>> 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until >>>> neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). >>>> Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new >>>> neighbors (4). >>>> Using this thread's suggestions, I think this becomes (as long as dancers understand that those starting as second corners always end the swing on the right) >>>> E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 >>>> >>>> A1 Balance and swing neighbor. >>>> >>>> A2 First corners allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. >>>> >>>> B1 Long lines forward and back. Second corners chain to neighbor. >>>> >>>> B2 Second corners allemande right (4). >>>> 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until >>>> neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). >>>> Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new >>>> neighbors (4) >>>> This makes the dance obscure to beginning and intermediate dancers. Seems best to have names corresponding to the men's and women's roles, rather than to have dancer's determine which corners they are at any point in the dance. >>>> >>>> Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:26 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Actually Alan, because we dance improper most frequently, and becket almost as much, I think I really don't want the labels applied to people so they stick. I'm just using the word corner the way Brooke and Chris use diagonal. In contra, we already have a use for the word diagonal, meaning the next pair along across the set to the right or left. The corner reference we have is actually close to right, probably having grown out of triple minor dances. Right diagonal is first corner, Left diagonal is second. Make it fit in a hands four and you have pairs of corners along opposite angles. It's a place not a person. Then I can write a dance beginning with a second corner chain, and it will be those formerly identified as gents, but will work totally fine. If the dance were proper, you could still have a second diagonals chain and it would be one of each 'role'. A direct transfer of the system to contra is not as useful as adapting, IMHO. >>>> Andrea >>>> >>>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >>>> >>>>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. &lt;winston(a)slac.stanford.edu&gt; wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global calling since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller self improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in not gender free English as well as for gender free English I think I can answer. >>>> >>>> The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published the most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left file, ladies line is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents place are first diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved for contra corners and the immediate neighbor in a square. >>>> >>>> However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, first gent and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second gent). If you apply that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was suggesting, the ladies are on the first corners, the gents on the second corners. >>>> >>>> The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we now do with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make a wave in the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in. >>>> >>>> >>>> You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to becket, where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply before you becketize, which would be my preference. >>>> >>>> Does that clear it up ? >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>>> Andrea, how would you handle the following: >>>>> 1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip to Lambertville, et all? >>>>> 2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star? >>>>> 3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, Jurassic Redheads, etc. >>>>> 4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey. >>>>> 5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate? >>>>> 6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways? >>>>> None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated. >>>>> Ron >>>>> On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now. >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Andrea >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were gender free. >>>>>> >>>>>> It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to call gender free. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, arcadian35(a)gmail.com. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Jim Hemphill >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Callers mailing list >>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Callers mailing list >>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Possibly you're seeing selection bias in English. At least in the SF Bay Area, contra is more popular than English, and I wonder how much of that difference is due to this issue. (This discussion is making clear that a significant chunk of my ECD dislike is due to this issue.) -- Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/ <*> <*> <*> Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:43 PM, Ric Goldman &lt;letsdance(a)rgoldman.org&gt; wrote: Apologies if this has been mentioned already, but even in ECD the terminology for corners is subject to confusion. If folks have shifted from their original positions (for example after a “trade places with partner” move), a reference to “1st corners do such-and-such” is often met by a question from the dancers “is that people or places?”. For example, if you’re facing across the set, and during a fwd-and-back, there’s a rollaway with a half sashay, would you call the person on the right the 1st corner (right diagonal based on the facing direction) or the 2nd corner (left diagonal based on where they were facing at the beginning of the dance). Therein lies the potential confusion. I wonder what the impact of this would be on chaos contra with the additional position or role swappring mid dance. Of course, that’s the dancers’ conundrum, not the callers. J Thanx, Ric Goldman From: Callers [mailto:callers-bounces@lists.sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Perry Shafran via Callers Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2015 7:42 AM To: Andrea Nettleton Cc: callers(a)sharedweight.net Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling After thinking about this I think I am starting to agree with Andrea in that corners (first & second) just might be the perfect term to use. In ECD, where most dances are proper, the first corner is gent 1 and lady 2, because in proper dances there are different genders on the diagonal. In an improper dance (most contra dances), there are same genders on the diagonal. So therefore the ladies would be in the first corner positions (same positions as in a proper English dance), and the gents are the second corners. In a swing, first corners end up on the right. I think by thinking about it this way you could do any dance, easy to challenging, with the corner terminology in place. Just substitute any incidence of "gents" in your choreography with "second corner" and "ladies" with "first corner". Perry From: Andrea Nettleton via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; To: Michael Fuerst &lt;mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com&gt; Cc: &quot;callers(a)sharedweight.net&quot; &lt;callers(a)sharedweight.net&gt; Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:31 AM Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling Hey Michael, I think you mean that those who began the dance as first corners, will always end swings on the right, just as they are standing relative to their partner in the hands four. The dance is obscure to the dancers only to the degree the caller is unable to elucidate it. It may take effort for callers to learn to teach as effectively this way, but that doesn't make it less clear. When I called to the SFQCD, ninety percent of the dancers were men. Even with bands and bare arms, so as clear an indication of role as they could achieve, they struggled with who ends where after stuff. What if I could have given them the tool of knowing their corners, and in addition, the clear instruction to note carefully which hand they held when standing next to their partner? That would always be their connector hand when standing as a couple after swings, chains, and R&L thrus. The twofold active attention might have served them far better than the arbitrary labels. Understanding that the pattern of the dance depends on knowing your geography makes sense. Adding into that the need to remember a label doesn't improve the odds the geography will stick, at least it didn't there. In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing your place in the dance. People mess up, but the place is always there. AN Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: Consider this dance E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 A1 Balance and swing neighbor. A2 Men allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. B1 Long lines forward and back. Women chain to neighbor. B2 Women allemande right (4). 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new neighbors (4). Using this thread's suggestions, I think this becomes (as long as dancers understand that those starting as second corners always end the swing on the right) E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 A1 Balance and swing neighbor. A2 First corners allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. B1 Long lines forward and back. Second corners chain to neighbor. B2 Second corners allemande right (4). 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new neighbors (4) This makes the dance obscure to beginning and intermediate dancers. Seems best to have names corresponding to the men's and women's roles, rather than to have dancer's determine which corners they are at any point in the dance. Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:26 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: Actually Alan, because we dance improper most frequently, and becket almost as much, I think I really don't want the labels applied to people so they stick. I'm just using the word corner the way Brooke and Chris use diagonal. In contra, we already have a use for the word diagonal, meaning the next pair along across the set to the right or left. The corner reference we have is actually close to right, probably having grown out of triple minor dances. Right diagonal is first corner, Left diagonal is second. Make it fit in a hands four and you have pairs of corners along opposite angles. It's a place not a person. Then I can write a dance beginning with a second corner chain, and it will be those formerly identified as gents, but will work totally fine. If the dance were proper, you could still have a second diagonals chain and it would be one of each 'role'. A direct transfer of the system to contra is not as useful as adapting, IMHO. Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. &lt;winston(a)slac.stanford.edu&gt; wrote: I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global calling since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller self improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in not gender free English as well as for gender free English I think I can answer. The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published the most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left file, ladies line is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents place are first diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved for contra corners and the immediate neighbor in a square. However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, first gent and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second gent). If you apply that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was suggesting, the ladies are on the first corners, the gents on the second corners. The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we now do with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make a wave in the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in. You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to becket, where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply before you becketize, which would be my preference. Does that clear it up ? Alan Sent from my iPad On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: Andrea, how would you handle the following: 1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip to Lambertville, et all? 2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star? 3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, Jurassic Redheads, etc. 4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey. 5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate? 6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways? None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated. Ron On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now. Cheers, Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were gender free. It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to call gender free. If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, arcadian35(a)gmail.com. Thanks, Jim Hemphill _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:15 PM, Winston, Alan P. &lt;winston(a)slac.stanford.edu&gt; wrote: Just clarification again. By first corners you mean the people who are standing in first corners at the time of the call? If so that's why this isn't a substitution of role names. Is this what you mean? Sent from my iPad On Jun 2, 2015, at 12:52 PM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: > Ric, > The ECD confusion is a result of our often using corners to refer to people, but not 100% of the time. I propose that we never refer to corners as the people, only use those words to refer to the position. In any hands four no matter where anyone lands, someone is in the top first corner, someone else in too second corner, etc. you can swap, the dance can move you around, but that position is forever. > Andrea > > Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask > > On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:43 PM, Ric Goldman &lt;letsdance(a)rgoldman.org&gt; wrote: > >> Apologies if this has been mentioned already, but even in ECD the terminology for corners is subject to confusion. If folks have shifted from their original positions (for example after a “trade places with partner” move), a reference to “1st corners do such-and-such” is often met by a question from the dancers “is that people or places?”. For example, if you’re facing across the set, and during a fwd-and-back, there’s a rollaway with a half sashay, would you call the person on the right the 1st corner (right diagonal based on the facing direction) or the 2nd corner (left diagonal based on where they were facing at the beginning of the dance). Therein lies the potential confusion. >> >> I wonder what the impact of this would be on chaos contra with the additional position or role swappring mid dance. Of course, that’s the dancers’ conundrum, not the callers. J >> >> Thanx, >> Ric Goldman >> >> From: Callers [mailto:callers-bounces@lists.sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Perry Shafran via Callers >> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2015 7:42 AM >> To: Andrea Nettleton >> Cc: callers(a)sharedweight.net >> Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling >> >> After thinking about this I think I am starting to agree with Andrea in that corners (first & second) just might be the perfect term to use. In ECD, where most dances are proper, the first corner is gent 1 and lady 2, because in proper dances there are different genders on the diagonal. In an improper dance (most contra dances), there are same genders on the diagonal. So therefore the ladies would be in the first corner positions (same positions as in a proper English dance), and the gents are the second corners. In a swing, first corners end up on the right. I think by thinking about it this way you could do any dance, easy to challenging, with the corner terminology in place. Just substitute any incidence of "gents" in your choreography with "second corner" and "ladies" with "first corner". >> >> Perry >> >> From: Andrea Nettleton via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; >> To: Michael Fuerst &lt;mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com&gt; >> Cc: &quot;callers(a)sharedweight.net&quot; &lt;callers(a)sharedweight.net&gt; >> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:31 AM >> Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling >> >> Hey Michael, >> I think you mean that those who began the dance as first corners, will always end swings on the right, just as they are standing relative to their partner in the hands four. >> >> The dance is obscure to the dancers only to the degree the caller is unable to elucidate it. It may take effort for callers to learn to teach as effectively this way, but that doesn't make it less clear. When I called to the SFQCD, ninety percent of the dancers were men. Even with bands and bare arms, so as clear an indication of role as they could achieve, they struggled with who ends where after stuff. What if I could have given them the tool of knowing their corners, and in addition, the clear instruction to note carefully which hand they held when standing next to their partner? That would always be their connector hand when standing as a couple after swings, chains, and R&L thrus. The twofold active attention might have served them far better than the arbitrary labels. Understanding that the pattern of the dance depends on knowing your geography makes sense. Adding into that the need to remember a label doesn't improve the odds the geography will stick, at least it didn't there. In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing your place in the dance. People mess up, but the place is always there. >> >> AN >> >> >> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >> >> >> >> On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >> >> Consider this dance >> >> E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 >> >> A1 Balance and swing neighbor. >> >> A2 Men allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. >> >> B1 Long lines forward and back. Women chain to neighbor. >> >> B2 Women allemande right (4). >> 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until >> neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). >> Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new >> neighbors (4). >> Using this thread's suggestions, I think this becomes (as long as dancers understand that those starting as second corners always end the swing on the right) >> E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 >> >> A1 Balance and swing neighbor. >> >> A2 First corners allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. >> >> B1 Long lines forward and back. Second corners chain to neighbor. >> >> B2 Second corners allemande right (4). >> 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until >> neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). >> Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new >> neighbors (4) >> This makes the dance obscure to beginning and intermediate dancers. Seems best to have names corresponding to the men's and women's roles, rather than to have dancer's determine which corners they are at any point in the dance. >> >> Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:26 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >> >> >> Actually Alan, because we dance improper most frequently, and becket almost as much, I think I really don't want the labels applied to people so they stick. I'm just using the word corner the way Brooke and Chris use diagonal. In contra, we already have a use for the word diagonal, meaning the next pair along across the set to the right or left. The corner reference we have is actually close to right, probably having grown out of triple minor dances. Right diagonal is first corner, Left diagonal is second. Make it fit in a hands four and you have pairs of corners along opposite angles. It's a place not a person. Then I can write a dance beginning with a second corner chain, and it will be those formerly identified as gents, but will work totally fine. If the dance were proper, you could still have a second diagonals chain and it would be one of each 'role'. A direct transfer of the system to contra is not as useful as adapting, IMHO. >> Andrea >> >> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >> >> On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. &lt;winston(a)slac.stanford.edu&gt; wrote: >> >> I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global calling since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller self improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in not gender free English as well as for gender free English I think I can answer. >> >> The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published the most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left file, ladies line is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents place are first diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved for contra corners and the immediate neighbor in a square. >> >> However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, first gent and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second gent). If you apply that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was suggesting, the ladies are on the first corners, the gents on the second corners. >> >> The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we now do with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make a wave in the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in. >> >> >> You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to becket, where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply before you becketize, which would be my preference. >> >> Does that clear it up ? >> >> Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >> >> Andrea, how would you handle the following: >> 1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip to Lambertville, et all? >> 2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star? >> 3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, Jurassic Redheads, etc. >> 4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey. >> 5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate? >> 6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways? >> None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated. >> Ron >> On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >> In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now. >> Cheers, >> Andrea >> >> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >> >> On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >> >> The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were gender free. >> >> It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to call gender free. >> >> If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, arcadian35(a)gmail.com. >> >> Thanks, >> Jim Hemphill >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Apologies if this has been mentioned already, but even in ECD the terminology for corners is subject to confusion. If folks have shifted from their original positions (for example after a “trade places with partner” move), a reference to “1st corners do such-and-such” is often met by a question from the dancers “is that people or places?”. For example, if you’re facing across the set, and during a fwd-and-back, there’s a rollaway with a half sashay, would you call the person on the right the 1st corner (right diagonal based on the facing direction) or the 2nd corner (left diagonal based on where they were facing at the beginning of the dance). Therein lies the potential confusion. I wonder what the impact of this would be on chaos contra with the additional position or role swappring mid dance. Of course, that’s the dancers’ conundrum, not the callers. J Thanx, Ric Goldman *From:* Callers [mailto:callers-bounces@lists.sharedweight.net] *On Behalf Of *Perry Shafran via Callers *Sent:* Tuesday, June 02, 2015 7:42 AM *To:* Andrea Nettleton *Cc:* callers(a)sharedweight.net *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling After thinking about this I think I am starting to agree with Andrea in that corners (first & second) just might be the perfect term to use. In ECD, where most dances are proper, the first corner is gent 1 and lady 2, because in proper dances there are different genders on the diagonal. In an improper dance (most contra dances), there are same genders on the diagonal. So therefore the ladies would be in the first corner positions (same positions as in a proper English dance), and the gents are the second corners. In a swing, first corners end up on the right. I think by thinking about it this way you could do any dance, easy to challenging, with the corner terminology in place. Just substitute any incidence of "gents" in your choreography with "second corner" and "ladies" with "first corner". Perry ------------------------------ *From:* Andrea Nettleton via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; *To:* Michael Fuerst &lt;mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com&gt; *Cc:* &quot;callers(a)sharedweight.net&quot; &lt;callers(a)sharedweight.net&gt; *Sent:* Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:31 AM *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling Hey Michael, I think you mean that those who began the dance as first corners, will always end swings on the right, just as they are standing relative to their partner in the hands four. The dance is obscure to the dancers only to the degree the caller is unable to elucidate it. It may take effort for callers to learn to teach as effectively this way, but that doesn't make it less clear. When I called to the SFQCD, ninety percent of the dancers were men. Even with bands and bare arms, so as clear an indication of role as they could achieve, they struggled with who ends where after stuff. What if I could have given them the tool of knowing their corners, and in addition, the clear instruction to note carefully which hand they held when standing next to their partner? That would always be their connector hand when standing as a couple after swings, chains, and R&L thrus. The twofold active attention might have served them far better than the arbitrary labels. Understanding that the pattern of the dance depends on knowing your geography makes sense. Adding into that the need to remember a label doesn't improve the odds the geography will stick, at least it didn't there. In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing your place in the dance. People mess up, but the place is always there. AN Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: Consider this dance E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 A1 Balance and swing neighbor. A2 Men allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. B1 Long lines forward and back. Women chain to neighbor. B2 Women allemande right (4). 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new neighbors (4). Using this thread's suggestions, I think this becomes (as long as dancers understand that those starting as *second corners* always end the swing on the right) E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 A1 Balance and swing neighbor. A2 *First corners* allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. B1 Long lines forward and back. *Second corners* chain to neighbor. B2 *Second corners* allemande right (4). 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new neighbors (4) This makes the dance obscure to beginning and intermediate dancers. Seems best to have names corresponding to the men's and women's roles, rather than to have dancer's determine which corners they are at any point in the dance. Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:26 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: Actually Alan, because we dance improper most frequently, and becket almost as much, I think I really don't want the labels applied to people so they stick. I'm just using the word corner the way Brooke and Chris use diagonal. In contra, we already have a use for the word diagonal, meaning the next pair along across the set to the right or left. The corner reference we have is actually close to right, probably having grown out of triple minor dances. Right diagonal is first corner, Left diagonal is second. Make it fit in a hands four and you have pairs of corners along opposite angles. It's a place not a person. Then I can write a dance beginning with a second corner chain, and it will be those formerly identified as gents, but will work totally fine. If the dance were proper, you could still have a second diagonals chain and it would be one of each 'role'. A direct transfer of the system to contra is not as useful as adapting, IMHO. Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. &lt;winston(a)slac.stanford.edu&gt; wrote: I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global calling since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller self improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in not gender free English as well as for gender free English I think I can answer. The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published the most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left file, ladies line is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents place are first diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved for contra corners and the immediate neighbor in a square. However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, first gent and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second gent). If you apply that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was suggesting, the ladies are on the first corners, the gents on the second corners. The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we now do with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make a wave in the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in. You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to becket, where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply before you becketize, which would be my preference. Does that clear it up ? Alan Sent from my iPad On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: Andrea, how would you handle the following: 1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip to Lambertville, et all? 2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star? 3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, Jurassic Redheads, etc. 4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey. 5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate? 6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways? None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated. Ron On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now. Cheers, Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were gender free. It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to call gender free. If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, arcadian35(a)gmail.com. Thanks, Jim Hemphill _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

I realize that it is much easier on callers to just substitute a label for ladies and gents on their calling cards. It shifts the burden onto the dancers who haven't grown up in a genderless dance environment as their brains translate the label into a term they are used to. Positional teaching and calling is more challenging for the caller. Not every dance will lend itself to this technique but I bet with a little thought most would.

You raise a good point. It took a long time for someone to impress upon me that, although I have no problem with positional calling, many people do. Different people have different strengths. When calling for a group of beginners, I've found that things go more smoothly if I know several ways to describe an action, and use them all. "Look for the next, look away from the couple you've been dancing with, for a new person." Some people will understand that they are dancing with one couple after another and turn the right way when I say "Look for the next", some are orienting themselves relative to the other couple and find "look away from the other couple" clearer, and some do not have a strong positional sense but will look around for a new person to dance with. Different calls work best for different dancers. Jacob On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 11:58 AM, Aahz Maruch via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: On Wed, Jun 03, 2015, Jim Hemphill via Callers wrote: label for onto the as their Positional every dance thought most Positional calling is also considerably more difficult for at least some dancers. My perception is that changing the "gender" label is pretty easy for most dancers -- at least, I've never seen many people struggling with it, and I do see people struggling with contra corners (which is the most common use-case in standard contra dancing).

In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now. Cheers, Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: > The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were gender free. > > It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to call gender free. > > If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, arcadian35(a)gmail.com. > > Thanks, > Jim Hemphill

It would help tremendously if we could have a discussion on what "global terminology" is and an example of choreography that is called with such terminology. The concept is one I have not heard of before. Perry From: Linda Leslie via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; To: Andrea Nettleton &lt;twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net&gt; Cc: Caller's discussion list &lt;callers(a)sharedweight.net&gt; Sent: Monday, June 1, 2015 10:33 AM Subject: [Callers] Global terminology in contra dances In Jamaica Plain, MA, the ECD dancers use Window Wall and Clock Wall, rather than left/right file. It is different global terminology, but works very well. I don’t know the history of why these words were chosen, but I could probably find out. The dancers also line up without identifying a partner, as discussed at Brooke’s site. This tradition is really quite lovely. I have had the opportunity to call this dance many times, so the terminology is very second nature to me. For me, the major challenge with incorporating global language into contra dances has to do with ending the swing. So many contra dances depend on the dancers having learned that the lady/lark/barearm/ruby/right file end on the right. How do we help completely new dancers learn this? Do we say “swing your Neighbor and change places”? Swing your Partner and change places”? I recognize that experienced dancers will know this instinctively; just as many dancers line up and automatically form improper lines at many contra dances. But I am curious about how callers out there see us helping the new folks, without using any role language at all. Thanks! Linda On Jun 1, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now. Cheers, Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

On Jun 1, 2015, at 12:51 PM, Linda Leslie via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: In an earlier email, David Casserly shared the following link, which defines the approach very, very well! http://heatherandrose.org/terms.shtml <http://heatherandrose.org/terms.shtml> Linda On Jun 1, 2015, at 12:37 PM, Perry Shafran &lt;pshaf(a)yahoo.com <mailto:pshaf@yahoo.com>> wrote: > It would help tremendously if we could have a discussion on what "global terminology" is and an example of choreography that is called with such terminology. The concept is one I have not heard of before. > > Perry > > From: Linda Leslie via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> > To: Andrea Nettleton &lt;twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net <mailto:twirly-girl@bellsouth.net>> > Cc: Caller's discussion list &lt;callers(a)sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@sharedweight.net>> > Sent: Monday, June 1, 2015 10:33 AM > Subject: [Callers] Global terminology in contra dances > > In Jamaica Plain, MA, the ECD dancers use Window Wall and Clock Wall, rather than left/right file. It is different global terminology, but works very well. I don’t know the history of why these words were chosen, but I could probably find out. The dancers also line up without identifying a partner, as discussed at Brooke’s site. This tradition is really quite lovely. I have had the opportunity to call this dance many times, so the terminology is very second nature to me. > > For me, the major challenge with incorporating global language into contra dances has to do with ending the swing. So many contra dances depend on the dancers having learned that the lady/lark/barearm/ruby/right file end on the right. > How do we help completely new dancers learn this? > Do we say “swing your Neighbor and change places”? Swing your Partner and change places”? > I recognize that experienced dancers will know this instinctively; just as many dancers line up and automatically form improper lines at many contra dances. > > But I am curious about how callers out there see us helping the new folks, without using any role language at all. > > Thanks! > Linda

On Jun 1, 2015, at 12:33 PM, Linda Leslie via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: For me, the major challenge with incorporating global language into contra dances has to do with ending the swing. So many contra dances depend on the dancers having learned that the lady/lark/barearm/ruby/right file end on the right. How do we help completely new dancers learn this? Do we say “swing your Neighbor and change places”? Swing your Partner and change places”? I recognize that experienced dancers will know this instinctively; just as many dancers line up and automatically form improper lines at many contra dances. But I am curious about how callers out there see us helping the new folks, without using any role language at all.