2 Aug
2019
2 Aug
'19
12:24 a.m.
To clarify, the group of dancers I’ve been working with at Pinewoods has been a mix of
older dancers who are new to this terminology as well as younger dancers who have been
promoting the change.
Lisa
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 1, 2019, at 5:33 PM, Rich Goss
<rich(a)richgoss.com> wrote:
Lisa, thanks for sharing your observations.
Seattle and Portland, OR dances seem to be moving to Larks and Robins as well. My next
Portland dance on Aug 24th will be Larks and Robins. Not all dances are gender neutral
terms at this point, but we do announce which terms will be used.
Rich
> On Aug 1, 2019, at 1:35 PM, Lisa Greenleaf via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Update: today at contra class at Pinewoods I tried Lakes and Rivers. Rivers is not a
satisfying or clear word to say for me personally, and the dancers said it got lost over
the sound system. They overwhelmingly prefer Larks and Robins.
>
> Lisa
>
2 Aug
2 Aug
8:35 a.m.
New subject: Larks and Robins
I still prefer Man and Ladies (and I'm aware this is old-fashioned and inconsistent),
but I certainly prefer Robins to Ravens.
I think of a Raven as a large bird, and since men are generally larger than women I get
confused! I think of a Robin as a
small bird (though maybe the American Robin is larger than the English Robin).
Colin Hume
12:25 p.m.
New subject: Larks and Robins
Fun fact (though not at all relevant since the point is to remove the
association between gender and dance role): in birds this generally
works the other way around from mammals. The female tends to be
larger. In birds of prey this lets them carry back larger prey since
they also tend to do the hunting while the male watches the nest and
guards the young.
On Fri, Aug 2, 2019, at 07:35, Colin Hume via Callers wrote:
I still prefer Man and Ladies (and I'm aware this
is old-fashioned and
inconsistent), but I certainly prefer Robins to Ravens. I think of a
Raven as a large bird, and since men are generally larger than women I
get confused! I think of a Robin as a small bird (though maybe the
American Robin is larger than the English Robin).
Colin Hume
--
Sam Whited
7:07 p.m.
New subject: Larks and Robins
It's interesting to note that raven has other connotations. In the
Pacific Northwest, especially among the Native Americans and First
Nations, the raven is very important in history, legend, and culture,
but not necessarily in a good way. The raven character is a trickster,
someone who cannot be completely trusted, powerful but also possibly to
be feared. Totem poles often include the raven in their designs. Tribes
are sometimes separated into camps that are defined by the raven.
Much more on the cultural meaning of this word (which is very interesting):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_Tales
For a community that got bent out of shape over the word "gypsy", it
would seem consistent to respect the word "raven".
Woody Lane
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 8/2/2019 12:35 AM, Colin Hume via Callers wrote:
I still prefer Man and Ladies (and I'm aware this
is old-fashioned and inconsistent), but I certainly prefer Robins to Ravens.
I think of a Raven as a large bird, and since men are generally larger than women I get
confused! I think of a Robin as a
small bird (though maybe the American Robin is larger than the English Robin).
Colin Hume
3 Aug
3 Aug
12:06 a.m.
New subject: Larks and Robins
I wish people who document dances on the forum would not write things like
“ladies’/robins’ chain”. We all know what you mean if you say either “ladies’ chain” or
“robins’ chain”. You don’t need to say both. Trying to parse a dance with extra words
scattered throughout it can be very confusing.
As a member of the AAAA (Association for the Abolition of the Aberrant Apostrophe) I
always appreciate a “Ladies’ Chain”.
I also use Men and Ladies almost exclusively since I find those to be the clearest words
to use over a PA. If I do need to use other words occasionally for a specific community,
then I am unlikely to use “Larks” as it is too much like “Ladies” but means the person in
the traditional Man’s role!
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
10:29 p.m.
New subject: Larks and Robins
While I must admit that of all the gender neutral terms that I've seen
passed around I prefer larks and ravens. First choice is still men and
ladies but it is mostly up to the community. Now comes larks or robins
for some reasonable concerns. What do we do if we are to use robins and
call a dance with a 'mad' robin? Not that it might be confusing for the
dancer in the robin roll but are we not now describing the person in the
robin roll as an angry dancer? I'm sure someone will consider it some
type of derogatory reflection. It seems as though whatever terms one
might use, someone will be offended. At sometime we must realize that
the terms we use are not used to degrade or humiliate anyone and that
reasonable people can come to reasonable solutions if they choose to.
Karl
On 8/2/19 7:06 PM, John Sweeney via Callers wrote:
I wish people who document dances on the forum would not write things
like “ladies’/robins’ chain”. We all know what you mean if you say
either “ladies’ chain” or “robins’ chain”. You don’t need to say
both. Trying to parse a dance with extra words scattered throughout
it can be very confusing.
As a member of the AAAA (Association for the Abolition of the Aberrant
Apostrophe) I always appreciate a “Ladies’ Chain”.
I also use Men and Ladies almost exclusively since I find those to be
the clearest words to use over a PA. If I do need to use other words
occasionally for a specific community, then I am unlikely to use
“Larks” as it is too much like “Ladies” but means the person in the
traditional Man’s role!
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
07802 940 574
http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
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5 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Colin Hume -
John Sweeney -
karl -
Lisa Greenleaf -
Sam Whited -
Woody Lane