9 Sep
2015
9 Sep
'15
2:07 p.m.
Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions
<http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Positive-Solutions-Chris.pdf>
on dealing with problem dancers, and the CDU Policy
<http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/09-12-16-CDU-policy-on-inappropriate-behavior.pdf>
are thoughtful and useful documents.
We have a different problem here.
One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as creepers
or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on behalf of their
victims. The victims don't initiate these reports.*
Many others *don't* see these men as creepy or inappropriate. Recently one
of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man was a year ago
and she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The man in question
had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy about some
nameless thing he'd done.
This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed should
talk to her about it. We feel that's the Board's job, not hers.
It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing -
"naughty-dancer" problems.
When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife has to
wonder if it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may already
have. So, while this woman is not actually punching anybody in the face,
it seems to me that she's committing violence.
How should we handle this?
- I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim has
to speak up (and then our process will usually fix simple miscommunication
issues).
- We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims know who
to talk to.
But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's issues from
poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance?
____
* I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and complaining, so
advocacy may be a good thing. But that's a different discussion. In these
situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just an
accusation with little to back it up.
9 Sep
9 Sep
2:34 p.m.
Hi Lindsay,
I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my brevity
comes off as bruskness.
These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra.
As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the source.
Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high level of ensuring that we
ask open-ended questions, and not leading questions.
We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular announcements
about us being available for any reason. Usually 4-7 members of our board
attend any dance.
You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if you're
interested in more specifics.
I would also caution about making such definitive statements as "just an
accusation". In my experience, where there's smoke, there's fire. For every
accusation, there's five people who are too uncomfortable to speak up.
That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of issues. The
biggest benefit is simple:
Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a simple
misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary drawn. But wait
until there's a pile of complaints, and you've already lost dancers and the
resolution will need to be more severe for the offender.
Best regards,
Ron Blechner
On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions
<http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Positive-Solutions-Chris.pdf>
on dealing with problem dancers, and the CDU Policy
<http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/09-12-16-CDU-policy-on-inappropriate-behavior.pdf>
are thoughtful and useful documents.
We have a different problem here.
One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as creepers
or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on behalf of their
victims. The victims don't initiate these reports.*
Many others *don't* see these men as creepy or inappropriate. Recently
one of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man was a year
ago and she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The man in
question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy about
some nameless thing he'd done.
This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed should
talk to her about it. We feel that's the Board's job, not hers.
It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing -
"naughty-dancer" problems.
When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife has
to wonder if it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may already
have. So, while this woman is not actually punching anybody in the face,
it seems to me that she's committing violence.
How should we handle this?
- I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim
has to speak up (and then our process will usually fix simple
miscommunication issues).
- We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims know
who to talk to.
But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's issues
from poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance?
____
* I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and complaining, so
advocacy may be a good thing. But that's a different discussion. In these
situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just an
accusation with little to back it up.
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
2:39 p.m.
Appreciate that. Don't think the "where there's smoke there's fire"
issue
applies here, though. It would if there were several *different* women
complaining about one man...
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lindsay,
I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my brevity
comes off as bruskness.
These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra.
As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the source.
Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high level of ensuring that we
ask open-ended questions, and not leading questions.
We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular announcements
about us being available for any reason. Usually 4-7 members of our board
attend any dance.
You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if you're
interested in more specifics.
I would also caution about making such definitive statements as "just an
accusation". In my experience, where there's smoke, there's fire. For every
accusation, there's five people who are too uncomfortable to speak up.
That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of issues. The
biggest benefit is simple:
Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a simple
misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary drawn. But wait
until there's a pile of complaints, and you've already lost dancers and the
resolution will need to be more severe for the offender.
Best regards,
Ron Blechner
On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions
>
<http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Positive-Solutions-Chris.pdf>
> on dealing with problem dancers, and the CDU Policy
>
<http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/09-12-16-CDU-policy-on-inappropriate-behavior.pdf>
> are thoughtful and useful documents.
>
> We have a different problem here.
>
> One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as creepers
> or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on behalf of their
> victims. The victims don't initiate these reports.*
>
> Many others *don't* see these men as creepy or inappropriate. Recently
> one of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man was a year
> ago and she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The man in
> question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy about
> some nameless thing he'd done.
>
> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed should
> talk to her about it. We feel that's the Board's job, not hers.
>
> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing -
> "naughty-dancer" problems.
>
> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife has
> to wonder if it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may already
> have. So, while this woman is not actually punching anybody in the face,
> it seems to me that she's committing violence.
>
> How should we handle this?
>
> - I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim
> has to speak up (and then our process will usually fix simple
> miscommunication issues).
> - We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims know
> who to talk to.
>
> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's issues
> from poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance?
>
> ____
> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and complaining, so
> advocacy may be a good thing. But that's a different discussion. In these
> situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just an
> accusation with little to back it up.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>
2:42 p.m.
Maybe. Maybe not. My point was that we should be very, very careful about
making a definitive statement about something being "just an accusation",
especially when in your example, there was a second problem - even if it
was a year earlier.
On Sep 9, 2015 10:39 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Appreciate that. Don't think the "where
there's smoke there's fire" issue
applies here, though. It would if there were several *different* women
complaining about one man...
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lindsay,
I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my brevity
comes off as bruskness.
These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra.
As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the source.
Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high level of ensuring that we
ask open-ended questions, and not leading questions.
We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular
announcements about us being available for any reason. Usually 4-7 members
of our board attend any dance.
You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if you're
interested in more specifics.
I would also caution about making such definitive statements as "just an
accusation". In my experience, where there's smoke, there's fire. For every
accusation, there's five people who are too uncomfortable to speak up.
That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of issues. The
biggest benefit is simple:
Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a
simple misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary drawn.
But wait until there's a pile of complaints, and you've already lost
dancers and the resolution will need to be more severe for the offender.
Best regards,
Ron Blechner
On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions
>
<http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Positive-Solutions-Chris.pdf>
> on dealing with problem dancers, and the CDU Policy
>
<http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/09-12-16-CDU-policy-on-inappropriate-behavior.pdf>
> are thoughtful and useful documents.
>
> We have a different problem here.
>
> One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as
> creepers or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on behalf of
> their victims. The victims don't initiate these reports.*
>
> Many others *don't* see these men as creepy or inappropriate. Recently
> one of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man was a year
> ago and she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The man in
> question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy about
> some nameless thing he'd done.
>
> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed should
> talk to her about it. We feel that's the Board's job, not hers.
>
> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing -
> "naughty-dancer" problems.
>
> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife has
> to wonder if it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may already
> have. So, while this woman is not actually punching anybody in the face,
> it seems to me that she's committing violence.
>
> How should we handle this?
>
> - I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim
> has to speak up (and then our process will usually fix simple
> miscommunication issues).
> - We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims know
> who to talk to.
>
> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's issues
> from poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance?
>
> ____
> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and complaining, so
> advocacy may be a good thing. But that's a different discussion. In these
> situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just an
> accusation with little to back it up.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
10 Sep
10 Sep
12:02 a.m.
Taking you at face value: if you have a systemic problem, you need a
policy. If you have a problem with one person, you need to come to
terms with that person. I'm not sure if it's just the board, or if
other dancers also have issues with her. But if you seek mediation,
take notes on your interactions so you have evidence to back yourself
up.
Now, I think the last thing you need is a policy requiring victims to
speak up. It's counterproductive to making a safe dance space. (Let's
discuss that on the other thread.)
Let's say I'm new to your dance and I have a bad experience with
someone. What do I do? I might complain about it to my friends who
convinced me to come. I might just avoid that person. I might just go
home dissatisfied. One of the last things I might do is complain to
the management (and I might view that woman as an extension thereof),
because who knows if they'll just shrug it off and not take me
seriously?
Also, you wrote, "it seems to me that she's committing violence." No,
I disagree. This totally cheapens the meaning of "violence". What
words do you use for when punches are actually thrown? (It's happened
at a dance here.)
Yoyo Zhou
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Maybe. Maybe not. My point was that we should be very,
very careful about
making a definitive statement about something being "just an accusation",
especially when in your example, there was a second problem - even if it was
a year earlier.
On Sep 9, 2015 10:39 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Appreciate that. Don't think the "where there's smoke there's
fire" issue
applies here, though. It would if there were several different women
complaining about one man...
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
Hi Lindsay,
I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my brevity
comes off as bruskness.
These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra.
As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the source.
Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high level of ensuring that we ask
open-ended questions, and not leading questions.
We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular
announcements about us being available for any reason. Usually 4-7 members
of our board attend any dance.
You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if you're
interested in more specifics.
I would also caution about making such definitive statements as "just an
accusation". In my experience, where there's smoke, there's fire. For every
accusation, there's five people who are too uncomfortable to speak up.
That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of issues. The
biggest benefit is simple:
Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a
simple misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary drawn. But
wait until there's a pile of complaints, and you've already lost dancers and
the resolution will need to be more severe for the offender.
Best regards,
Ron Blechner
On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions on dealing with problem dancers, and
> the CDU Policy are thoughtful and useful documents.
>
> We have a different problem here.
>
> One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as
> creepers or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on behalf of
> their victims. The victims don't initiate these reports.*
>
> Many others don't see these men as creepy or inappropriate. Recently
> one of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man was a year
> ago and she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The man in
> question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy about
> some nameless thing he'd done.
>
> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed should
> talk to her about it. We feel that's the Board's job, not hers.
>
> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing -
> "naughty-dancer" problems.
>
> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife has
> to wonder if it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may already
> have. So, while this woman is not actually punching anybody in the face, it
> seems to me that she's committing violence.
>
> How should we handle this?
>
> I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim has to
> speak up (and then our process will usually fix simple miscommunication
> issues).
> We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims know who
> to talk to.
>
> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's issues
> from poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance?
>
> ____
> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and complaining, so
> advocacy may be a good thing. But that's a different discussion. In these
> situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just an
> accusation with little to back it up.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
2:55 p.m.
Hi Everyone-
I am cringing every time I read the word victim. VIctim implies powerlessness, so why not
use the word dancer and encourage self-empowerment?
Sometimes dancers approach me because I am an official organizer, and other times friends
of the person approach me because they know I might be able to help. My first question
around complaints is always, “Did you talk with the person whose behavior bothered you?”
And then I model an “I” statement for them: “I don’t like that,” “I don’t feel comfortable
dancing with you because I don’t like to be twirled,” etc.
Of course, most people find it difficult to talk directly to the person disturbing them,
but it’s still worth encouraging, especially if you show them how to do it. You are
teaching them a real-world skill that they can use outside of the dance.
When a dancer approaches me with a complaint, I don’t see them as a victim who needs
rescuing. For one thing, I don’t know the real situation until I have heard both sides
of the story. Yes, the situation may expand to a larger problem, but even then I don’t
change “dancer” (or more specifically, the name of the person) to “victim.”
Lisa
On Sep 9, 2015, at 8:02 PM, Yoyo Zhou via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Taking you at face value: if you have a systemic problem, you need a
policy. If you have a problem with one person, you need to come to
terms with that person. I'm not sure if it's just the board, or if
other dancers also have issues with her. But if you seek mediation,
take notes on your interactions so you have evidence to back yourself
up.
Now, I think the last thing you need is a policy requiring victims to
speak up. It's counterproductive to making a safe dance space. (Let's
discuss that on the other thread.)
Let's say I'm new to your dance and I have a bad experience with
someone. What do I do? I might complain about it to my friends who
convinced me to come. I might just avoid that person. I might just go
home dissatisfied. One of the last things I might do is complain to
the management (and I might view that woman as an extension thereof),
because who knows if they'll just shrug it off and not take me
seriously?
Also, you wrote, "it seems to me that she's committing violence." No,
I disagree. This totally cheapens the meaning of "violence". What
words do you use for when punches are actually thrown? (It's happened
at a dance here.)
Yoyo Zhou
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Lisa
Maybe. Maybe not. My point was that we should be
very, very careful about
making a definitive statement about something being "just an accusation",
especially when in your example, there was a second problem - even if it was
a year earlier.
On Sep 9, 2015 10:39 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
Appreciate that. Don't think the "where there's smoke there's
fire" issue
applies here, though. It would if there were several different women
complaining about one man...
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
Hi Lindsay,
I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my brevity
comes off as bruskness.
These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra.
As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the source.
Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high level of ensuring that we ask
open-ended questions, and not leading questions.
We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular
announcements about us being available for any reason. Usually 4-7 members
of our board attend any dance.
You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if you're
interested in more specifics.
I would also caution about making such definitive statements as "just an
accusation". In my experience, where there's smoke, there's fire. For every
accusation, there's five people who are too uncomfortable to speak up.
That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of issues. The
biggest benefit is simple:
Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a
simple misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary drawn. But
wait until there's a pile of complaints, and you've already lost dancers and
the resolution will need to be more severe for the offender.
Best regards,
Ron Blechner
On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions on dealing with problem dancers, and
> the CDU Policy are thoughtful and useful documents.
>
> We have a different problem here.
>
> One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as
> creepers or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on behalf of
> their victims. The victims don't initiate these reports.*
>
> Many others don't see these men as creepy or inappropriate. Recently
> one of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man was a year
> ago and she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The man in
> question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy about
> some nameless thing he'd done.
>
> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed should
> talk to her about it. We feel that's the Board's job, not hers.
>
> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing -
> "naughty-dancer" problems.
>
> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife has
> to wonder if it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may already
> have. So, while this woman is not actually punching anybody in the face, it
> seems to me that she's committing violence.
>
> How should we handle this?
>
> I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim has to
> speak up (and then our process will usually fix simple miscommunication
> issues).
> We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims know who
> to talk to.
>
> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's issues
> from poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance?
>
> ____
> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and complaining, so
> advocacy may be a good thing. But that's a different discussion. In these
> situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just an
> accusation with little to back it up.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
6:14 p.m.
Great point, thanks Lisa.
On Thursday, September 10, 2015, Lisa Greenleaf via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi Everyone-
I am cringing every time I read the word victim. VIctim implies
powerlessness, so why not use the word dancer and encourage
self-empowerment?
Sometimes dancers approach me because I am an official organizer, and
other times friends of the person approach me because they know I might be
able to help. My first question around complaints is always, “Did you talk
with the person whose behavior bothered you?” And then I model an “I”
statement for them: “I don’t like that,” “I don’t feel comfortable dancing
with you because I don’t like to be twirled,” etc.
Of course, most people find it difficult to talk directly to the person
disturbing them, but it’s still worth encouraging, especially if you show
them how to do it. You are teaching them a real-world skill that they can
use outside of the dance.
When a dancer approaches me with a complaint, I don’t see them as a victim
who needs rescuing. For one thing, I don’t know the real situation until
I have heard both sides of the story. Yes, the situation may expand to a
larger problem, but even then I don’t change “dancer” (or more
specifically, the name of the person) to “victim.”
Lisa
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
Lisa
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
--
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
On Sep 9, 2015, at 8:02 PM, Yoyo Zhou via Callers
<
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
Taking you at face value: if you have a systemic problem, you need a
policy. If you have a problem with one person, you need to come to
terms with that person. I'm not sure if it's just the board, or if
other dancers also have issues with her. But if you seek mediation,
take notes on your interactions so you have evidence to back yourself
up.
Now, I think the last thing you need is a policy requiring victims to
speak up. It's counterproductive to making a safe dance space. (Let's
discuss that on the other thread.)
Let's say I'm new to your dance and I have a bad experience with
someone. What do I do? I might complain about it to my friends who
convinced me to come. I might just avoid that person. I might just go
home dissatisfied. One of the last things I might do is complain to
the management (and I might view that woman as an extension thereof),
because who knows if they'll just shrug it off and not take me
seriously?
Also, you wrote, "it seems to me that she's committing violence." No,
I disagree. This totally cheapens the meaning of "violence". What
words do you use for when punches are actually thrown? (It's happened
at a dance here.)
Yoyo Zhou
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
> Maybe. Maybe not. My point was that we should be very, very careful
about
> making a definitive statement about something
being "just an
accusation",
> especially when in your example, there was a
second problem - even if
it was
> a year earlier.
>
> On Sep 9, 2015 10:39 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
> <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>
>> Appreciate that. Don't think the "where there's smoke there's
fire"
issue
>> applies here, though. It would if there
were several different women
>> complaining about one man...
>>
>> --------------------
>> Lindsay Morris
>> CEO, TSMworks
>> Tel. 1-859-539-9900
>> lindsay(a)tsmworks.com <javascript:;>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com
<javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Lindsay,
>>>
>>> I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my
brevity
>>> comes off as bruskness.
>>>
>>> These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra.
>>>
>>> As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the
source.
>>> Anonymous complaints are permitted,
and a high level of ensuring that
we ask
>>> open-ended questions, and not leading
questions.
>>>
>>> We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular
>>> announcements about us being available for any reason. Usually 4-7
members
>>> of our board attend any dance.
>>>
>>> You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if
you're
>>> interested in more specifics.
>>>
>>> I would also caution about making such definitive statements as "just
an
>>> accusation". In my experience,
where there's smoke, there's fire. For
every
>>> accusation, there's five people
who are too uncomfortable to speak up.
>>>
>>> That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of issues.
The
>>> biggest benefit is simple:
>>>
>>> Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a
>>> simple misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary
drawn. But
>>> wait until there's a pile of
complaints, and you've already lost
dancers and
>>> the resolution will need to be more
severe for the offender.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Ron Blechner
>>>
>>> On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
>>> <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions on dealing with problem dancers,
and
>>>> the CDU Policy are thoughtful and
useful documents.
>>>>
>>>> We have a different problem here.
>>>>
>>>> One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as
>>>> creepers or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on
behalf of
>>>> their victims. The victims
don't initiate these reports.*
>>>>
>>>> Many others don't see these men as creepy or inappropriate.
Recently
>>>> one of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man
was
a year
>>>> ago and she'd long ago dealt
with it to her satisfaction. The man in
>>>> question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy
about
>>>> some nameless thing he'd
done.
>>>>
>>>> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed
should
>>>> talk to her about it. We feel
that's the Board's job, not hers.
>>>>
>>>> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing -
>>>> "naughty-dancer" problems.
>>>>
>>>> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife
has
>>>> to wonder if it's true. This
adds to any marital tensions they may
already
>>>> have. So, while this woman is
not actually punching anybody in the
face, it
>>>> seems to me that she's
committing violence.
>>>>
>>>> How should we handle this?
>>>>
>>>> I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the
victim
has to
>>>> speak up (and then our process
will usually fix simple
miscommunication
>>>> issues).
>>>> We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims know
who
>>>> to talk to.
>>>>
>>>> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's
issues
>>>> from poisoning the atmosphere of
a mostly friendly dance?
>>>>
>>>> ____
>>>> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and
complaining, so
>>>> advocacy may be a good thing.
But that's a different discussion.
In these
>> situations, there's no victim; there's
no predator; there's just an
>> accusation with little to back it up.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
8:12 p.m.
Zhou,
On the committing violence front--I once had a sociology professor who used
the word "violence" to describe just about everything (i.e., graffiti was
violence, a company persistently not fixing warrantied products was
violence, genocide was violence). He clearly needed a thesaurus, but it
was a thought-provoking perspective and pointed out that violence is not
specifically limited to physical acts--emotional and verbal acts can also
inflict real damage.
When I was a kid there was a mother in my scout troop who leveled
accusations of sexual harassment against two of the leaders and demanded
financial compensation; both of them were removed from their positions,
divorced by their wives, and one paid her an out-of-court settlement while
the other was forced to leave his job after she told his employer. When
she started to go after a third leader, someone checked with her prior
troop; they discovered it was a pattern, and that she was living off of a
prior settlement. "Committing violence" seems like what she did to the
families involved..
I'm not saying that Lindsay's case is the same--but it has similar
elements, and dance group policies generally prohibit violence. We usually
mean the physical kind, but when that word is coming to mind there's
probably a reason. If the lady in question is doing harm to other members
of the community, I'd want to be very careful about handling the matter.
Neal Schlein
On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Lindsay Morris via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Great point, thanks Lisa.
On Thursday, September 10, 2015, Lisa Greenleaf via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi Everyone-
I am cringing every time I read the word victim. VIctim implies
powerlessness, so why not use the word dancer and encourage
self-empowerment?
Sometimes dancers approach me because I am an official organizer, and
other times friends of the person approach me because they know I might be
able to help. My first question around complaints is always, “Did you talk
with the person whose behavior bothered you?” And then I model an “I”
statement for them: “I don’t like that,” “I don’t feel comfortable dancing
with you because I don’t like to be twirled,” etc.
Of course, most people find it difficult to talk directly to the person
disturbing them, but it’s still worth encouraging, especially if you show
them how to do it. You are teaching them a real-world skill that they can
use outside of the dance.
When a dancer approaches me with a complaint, I don’t see them as a
victim who needs rescuing. For one thing, I don’t know the real situation
until I have heard both sides of the story. Yes, the situation may expand
to a larger problem, but even then I don’t change “dancer” (or more
specifically, the name of the person) to “victim.”
Lisa
Lisa
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
--
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
On Sep 9, 2015, at 8:02 PM, Yoyo Zhou via Callers
<
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Taking you at face value: if you have a systemic problem, you need a
policy. If you have a problem with one person, you need to come to
terms with that person. I'm not sure if it's just the board, or if
other dancers also have issues with her. But if you seek mediation,
take notes on your interactions so you have evidence to back yourself
up.
Now, I think the last thing you need is a policy requiring victims to
speak up. It's counterproductive to making a safe dance space. (Let's
discuss that on the other thread.)
Let's say I'm new to your dance and I have a bad experience with
someone. What do I do? I might complain about it to my friends who
convinced me to come. I might just avoid that person. I might just go
home dissatisfied. One of the last things I might do is complain to
the management (and I might view that woman as an extension thereof),
because who knows if they'll just shrug it off and not take me
seriously?
Also, you wrote, "it seems to me that she's committing violence." No,
I disagree. This totally cheapens the meaning of "violence". What
words do you use for when punches are actually thrown? (It's happened
at a dance here.)
Yoyo Zhou
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> Maybe. Maybe not. My point was that we should be very, very careful
about
> making a definitive statement about something
being "just an
accusation",
> especially when in your example, there was a
second problem - even if
it was
> a year earlier.
>
> On Sep 9, 2015 10:39 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
> <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>> Appreciate that. Don't think the "where there's smoke there's
fire"
issue
>> applies here, though. It would if there
were several different women
>> complaining about one man...
>>
>> --------------------
>> Lindsay Morris
>> CEO, TSMworks
>> Tel. 1-859-539-9900
>> lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Lindsay,
>>>
>>> I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my
brevity
>>> comes off as bruskness.
>>>
>>> These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra.
>>>
>>> As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the
source.
>>> Anonymous complaints are permitted,
and a high level of ensuring
that we ask
>>> open-ended questions, and not leading
questions.
>>>
>>> We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular
>>> announcements about us being available for any reason. Usually 4-7
members
>>> of our board attend any dance.
>>>
>>> You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if
you're
>>> interested in more specifics.
>>>
>>> I would also caution about making such definitive statements as
"just an
>>> accusation". In my experience,
where there's smoke, there's fire.
For every
>>> accusation, there's five people
who are too uncomfortable to speak
up.
>>>
>>> That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of
issues.
The
>>> biggest benefit is simple:
>>>
>>> Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a
>>> simple misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary
drawn. But
>>> wait until there's a pile of
complaints, and you've already lost
dancers and
>>> the resolution will need to be more
severe for the offender.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Ron Blechner
>>>
>>> On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
>>> <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions on dealing with problem dancers,
and
>>>> the CDU Policy are thoughtful and
useful documents.
>>>>
>>>> We have a different problem here.
>>>>
>>>> One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as
>>>> creepers or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on
behalf of
>>>> their victims. The victims
don't initiate these reports.*
>>>>
>>>> Many others don't see these men as creepy or inappropriate.
Recently
>>>> one of the "victims"
clarified that her discomfort with the man was
a year
>>>> ago and she'd long ago dealt
with it to her satisfaction. The man
in
>>>> question had heard only rumors
that some nameless woman was unhappy
about
>>>> some nameless thing he'd
done.
>>>>
>>>> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed
should
>>>> talk to her about it. We feel
that's the Board's job, not hers.
>>>>
>>>> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing -
>>>> "naughty-dancer" problems.
>>>>
>>>> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his
wife has
>>>> to wonder if it's true. This
adds to any marital tensions they may
already
>>>> have. So, while this woman is
not actually punching anybody in the
face, it
>>>> seems to me that she's
committing violence.
>>>>
>>>> How should we handle this?
>>>>
>>>> I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the
victim
has to
>>>> speak up (and then our process
will usually fix simple
miscommunication
>>>> issues).
>>>> We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims know
who
>>>> to talk to.
>>>>
>>>> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's
issues
>>>> from poisoning the atmosphere of
a mostly friendly dance?
>>>>
>>>> ____
>>>> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and
complaining, so
>>>> advocacy may be a good thing.
But that's a different discussion.
In these
>>> situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just
an
>>> accusation with little to back it up.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Callers mailing list
>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
13 Sep
13 Sep
7:27 a.m.
On 9/10/2015 11:14 AM, Lindsay Morris via Callers wrote:
Great point, thanks Lisa.
On Thursday, September 10, 2015, Lisa Greenleaf via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Hi Everyone-
I am cringing every time I read the word victim. VIctim implies
powerlessness, so why not use the word dancer and encourage
self-empowerment?
Sometimes dancers approach me because I am an official organizer,
and other times friends of the person approach me because they
know I might be able to help. My first question around complaints
is always, “Did you talk with the person whose behavior bothered
you?” And then I model an “I” statement for them: “I don’t like
that,” “I don’t feel comfortable dancing with you because I don’t
like to be twirled,” etc.
Of course, most people find it difficult to talk directly to the
person disturbing them, but it’s still worth encouraging,
especially if you show them how to do it. You are teaching them a
real-world skill that they can use outside of the dance.
When a dancer approaches me with a complaint, I don’t see them as
a victim who needs rescuing. For one thing, I don’t know the
real situation until I have heard both sides of the story. Yes,
the situation may expand to a larger problem, but even then I
don’t change “dancer” (or more specifically, the name of the
person) to “victim.”
Lisa
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
Lisa
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
--
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com <mailto:lindsay@tsmworks.com>
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
On Sep 9, 2015, at 8:02 PM, Yoyo Zhou via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
Taking you at face value: if you have a systemic problem, you need a
policy. If you have a problem with one person, you need to come to
terms with that person. I'm not sure if it's just the board, or if
other dancers also have issues with her. But if you seek mediation,
take notes on your interactions so you have evidence to back
yourself
up.
Now, I think the last thing you need is a policy requiring
victims to
speak up. It's counterproductive to making a
safe dance space.
(Let's
discuss that on the other thread.)
Let's say I'm new to your dance and I have a bad experience with
someone. What do I do? I might complain about it to my friends who
convinced me to come. I might just avoid that person. I might
just go
home dissatisfied. One of the last things I might
do is complain to
the management (and I might view that woman as an extension
thereof),
because who knows if they'll just shrug it
off and not take me
seriously?
Also, you wrote, "it seems to me that she's committing
violence." No,
I disagree. This totally cheapens the meaning of
"violence". What
words do you use for when punches are actually thrown? (It's
happened
at a dance here.)
Yoyo Zhou
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
> Maybe. Maybe not. My point was that we should be very, very
careful about
> making a definitive statement about something
being "just an
accusation",
> especially when in your example, there was a
second problem -
even if it was
> a year earlier.
>
> On Sep 9, 2015 10:39 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
> <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>
>> Appreciate that. Don't think the "where there's smoke there's
fire" issue
>> applies here, though. It would if there
were several
different women
>> complaining about one man...
>>
>> --------------------
>> Lindsay Morris
>> CEO, TSMworks
>> Tel. 1-859-539-9900
>> lindsay(a)tsmworks.com <javascript:;>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner
<contraron(a)gmail.com
<javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Lindsay,
>>>
>>> I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if
my
brevity
>>> comes off as bruskness.
>>>
>>> These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra.
>>>
>>> As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out
the
source.
>>> Anonymous complaints are permitted,
and a high level of
ensuring that we ask
>>> open-ended questions, and not leading
questions.
>>>
>>> We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular
>>> announcements about us being available for any reason.
Usually 4-7
members
>>> of our board attend any dance.
>>>
>>> You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer,
if
you're
>>> interested in more specifics.
>>>
>>> I would also caution about making such definitive statements
as
"just an
>>> accusation". In my experience,
where there's smoke, there's
fire. For every
>>> accusation, there's five people
who are too uncomfortable to
speak up.
>>>
>>> That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of
issues. The
>>> biggest benefit is simple:
>>>
>>> Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe
it's a
>>> simple misunderstanding. Maybe the
person needed a clear
boundary drawn. But
>>> wait until there's a pile of
complaints, and you've already
lost dancers and
>>> the resolution will need to be more
severe for the offender.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Ron Blechner
>>>
>>> On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
>>> <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions on dealing with problem
dancers, and
>>>> the CDU Policy are thoughtful and
useful documents.
>>>>
>>>> We have a different problem here.
>>>>
>>>> One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as
>>>> creepers or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior
on
behalf of
>>>> their victims. The victims
don't initiate these reports.*
>>>>
>>>> Many others don't see these men as creepy or inappropriate.
Recently
>>>> one of the "victims"
clarified that her discomfort with the
man was a year
>>>> ago and she'd long ago dealt
with it to her satisfaction.
The man in
>>>> question had heard only rumors
that some nameless woman was
unhappy about
>>>> some nameless thing he'd
done.
>>>>
>>>> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel
harassed should
>>>> talk to her about it. We feel
that's the Board's job, not hers.
>>>>
>>>> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing -
>>>> "naughty-dancer" problems.
>>>>
>>>> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator,
his wife has
>>>> to wonder if it's true. This
adds to any marital tensions
they may already
>>>> have. So, while this woman is
not actually punching anybody
in the face, it
>>>> seems to me that she's
committing violence.
>>>>
>>>> How should we handle this?
>>>>
>>>> I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the
victim has to
>>>> speak up (and then our process
will usually fix simple
miscommunication
>>>> issues).
>>>> We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine
victims
know who
>>>> to talk to.
>>>>
>>>> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one
person's issues
>>>> from poisoning the atmosphere of
a mostly friendly dance?
>>>>
>>>> ____
>>>> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and
complaining, so
>>>> advocacy may be a good thing.
But that's a different
discussion. In these
>>>> situations, there's no
victim; there's no predator; there's
just an
>>>> accusation with little to back it
up.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Callers mailing list
>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>
>>>>
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>
>>
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
7:53 a.m.
First, sorry for the inadvertent sending of no message.
Second, although I agree with Lisa that it's great to have dancers take
care of themselves and not call them "victims," and, if a dancer tells
me about a specific situation with another dancer, her approach is
commendable. But, two things:
1) When there is a dancer -- most commonly the older man seeking to
"take over" the training of the new dancer -- there's a problem. This
problem is that new dancers has no stake in the dance. If her (or his)
enjoyment is reduced, they have no real reason to report it, and a good
reason to never come back. OK, they may not be "a victim" though they
receive the brunt of a behavior that causes them discomfort. It's not up
to them to discourage such activity -- they have an easy way out: "why
would I bother going there again?" So, it's up to those of us with a
stake in the dance to interrupt such behavior.
2) If there is a regular dancer who's stake isn't so strong, and they
don't feel willing or comfortable with direct confrontation, they, too,
may just stop coming.
So, ultimately it is all of us who need to agree on the range of
acceptable behavior and address each incident as needed. It might be
totally appropriate to encourage a dancer to stand up for herself (or
himself). It might be the best course for organizers to step in and
assist a change in behavior. It might be for a caller to teach a styling
point. And it's good for we with a large stake in the dance to know how
people are feeling, about each other, about the dance, about problems.
Listening to both sides is also important.
I've mentioned this before, but in the Bay Area (SF) we had a woman once
who wrote a letter to the board and had a restraining order against a
man she had been involved with. The board sent out a copy of her letter
with the note that we call the police if the man decided not to leave a
dance when she was present. We got into a lot of hot water because we
included her story, and this was prior to checking with the man. Many of
us became aware later that the woman had a history of crying wolf,
really tried to use the restraining order to hurt the man (like filing a
complaint of him being too close as he was driving out of a parking lot
into which she was pulling in -- their cars passed within the 50 ft
limit...).
We learned to inform our managers that when a restraining order incident
comes up, call the police and don't take sides, and to listen to both
sides of a case, and not send out one person's testimony...
~erik hoffman
oakland, ca
On 9/10/2015 11:14 AM, Lindsay Morris via Callers wrote:
Great point, thanks Lisa.
On Thursday, September 10, 2015, Lisa Greenleaf via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Hi Everyone-
I am cringing every time I read the word victim. VIctim implies
powerlessness, so why not use the word dancer and encourage
self-empowerment?
Sometimes dancers approach me because I am an official organizer,
and other times friends of the person approach me because they
know I might be able to help. My first question around complaints
is always, “Did you talk with the person whose behavior bothered
you?” And then I model an “I” statement for them: “I don’t like
that,” “I don’t feel comfortable dancing with you because I don’t
like to be twirled,” etc.
Of course, most people find it difficult to talk directly to the
person disturbing them, but it’s still worth encouraging,
especially if you show them how to do it. You are teaching them a
real-world skill that they can use outside of the dance.
When a dancer approaches me with a complaint, I don’t see them as
a victim who needs rescuing. For one thing, I don’t know the
real situation until I have heard both sides of the story. Yes,
the situation may expand to a larger problem, but even then I
don’t change “dancer” (or more specifically, the name of the
person) to “victim.”
Lisa
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
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Lisa
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--
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com <mailto:lindsay@tsmworks.com>
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On Sep 9, 2015, at 8:02 PM, Yoyo Zhou via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
Taking you at face value: if you have a systemic problem, you need a
policy. If you have a problem with one person, you need to come to
terms with that person. I'm not sure if it's just the board, or if
other dancers also have issues with her. But if you seek mediation,
take notes on your interactions so you have evidence to back
yourself
up.
Now, I think the last thing you need is a policy requiring
victims to
speak up. It's counterproductive to making a
safe dance space.
(Let's
discuss that on the other thread.)
Let's say I'm new to your dance and I have a bad experience with
someone. What do I do? I might complain about it to my friends who
convinced me to come. I might just avoid that person. I might
just go
home dissatisfied. One of the last things I might
do is complain to
the management (and I might view that woman as an extension
thereof),
because who knows if they'll just shrug it
off and not take me
seriously?
Also, you wrote, "it seems to me that she's committing
violence." No,
I disagree. This totally cheapens the meaning of
"violence". What
words do you use for when punches are actually thrown? (It's
happened
at a dance here.)
Yoyo Zhou
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
> Maybe. Maybe not. My point was that we should be very, very
careful about
> making a definitive statement about something
being "just an
accusation",
> especially when in your example, there was a
second problem -
even if it was
> a year earlier.
>
> On Sep 9, 2015 10:39 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
> <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>
>> Appreciate that. Don't think the "where there's smoke there's
fire" issue
>> applies here, though. It would if there
were several
different women
>> complaining about one man...
>>
>> --------------------
>> Lindsay Morris
>> CEO, TSMworks
>> Tel. 1-859-539-9900
>> lindsay(a)tsmworks.com <javascript:;>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner
<contraron(a)gmail.com
<javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Lindsay,
>>>
>>> I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if
my
brevity
>>> comes off as bruskness.
>>>
>>> These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra.
>>>
>>> As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out
the
source.
>>> Anonymous complaints are permitted,
and a high level of
ensuring that we ask
>>> open-ended questions, and not leading
questions.
>>>
>>> We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular
>>> announcements about us being available for any reason.
Usually 4-7
members
>>> of our board attend any dance.
>>>
>>> You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer,
if
you're
>>> interested in more specifics.
>>>
>>> I would also caution about making such definitive statements
as
"just an
>>> accusation". In my experience,
where there's smoke, there's
fire. For every
>>> accusation, there's five people
who are too uncomfortable to
speak up.
>>>
>>> That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of
issues. The
>>> biggest benefit is simple:
>>>
>>> Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe
it's a
>>> simple misunderstanding. Maybe the
person needed a clear
boundary drawn. But
>>> wait until there's a pile of
complaints, and you've already
lost dancers and
>>> the resolution will need to be more
severe for the offender.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Ron Blechner
>>>
>>> On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
>>> <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions on dealing with problem
dancers, and
>>>> the CDU Policy are thoughtful and
useful documents.
>>>>
>>>> We have a different problem here.
>>>>
>>>> One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as
>>>> creepers or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior
on
behalf of
>>>> their victims. The victims
don't initiate these reports.*
>>>>
>>>> Many others don't see these men as creepy or inappropriate.
Recently
>>>> one of the "victims"
clarified that her discomfort with the
man was a year
>>>> ago and she'd long ago dealt
with it to her satisfaction.
The man in
>>>> question had heard only rumors
that some nameless woman was
unhappy about
>>>> some nameless thing he'd
done.
>>>>
>>>> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel
harassed should
>>>> talk to her about it. We feel
that's the Board's job, not hers.
>>>>
>>>> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing -
>>>> "naughty-dancer" problems.
>>>>
>>>> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator,
his wife has
>>>> to wonder if it's true. This
adds to any marital tensions
they may already
>>>> have. So, while this woman is
not actually punching anybody
in the face, it
>>>> seems to me that she's
committing violence.
>>>>
>>>> How should we handle this?
>>>>
>>>> I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the
victim has to
>>>> speak up (and then our process
will usually fix simple
miscommunication
>>>> issues).
>>>> We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine
victims
know who
>>>> to talk to.
>>>>
>>>> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one
person's issues
>>>> from poisoning the atmosphere of
a mostly friendly dance?
>>>>
>>>> ____
>>>> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and
complaining, so
>>>> advocacy may be a good thing.
But that's a different
discussion. In these
>>>> situations, there's no
victim; there's no predator; there's
just an
>>>> accusation with little to back it
up.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Callers mailing list
>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>
>>>>
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <javascript:;>
>>
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
9 Sep
9 Sep
4:04 p.m.
Yeah, we had a guy at one dance complain bitterly that other men were being creepy with
his girlfriend. But when I spoke with her, she said there was no problem, they'd done
no more than gypsy and swing her and occasionally speak to her with advice on the dance.
The more I spoke with the two of them the more I wanted to yell at the woman - run fast,
very fast, as far away from this control freak as you can!!!! But I suppose it was not my
place to warn her right in front of him. No surprise they never returned.
Martha
On Sep 9, 2015, at 7:39 AM, Lindsay Morris via Callers wrote:
Appreciate that. Don't think the "where
there's smoke there's fire" issue applies here, though. It would if there
were several different women complaining about one man...
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lindsay,
I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my brevity comes off as
bruskness.
These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra.
As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the source. Anonymous
complaints are permitted, and a high level of ensuring that we ask open-ended questions,
and not leading questions.
We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular announcements about us being
available for any reason. Usually 4-7 members of our board attend any dance.
You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if you're interested in
more specifics.
I would also caution about making such definitive statements as "just an
accusation". In my experience, where there's smoke, there's fire. For every
accusation, there's five people who are too uncomfortable to speak up.
That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of issues. The biggest benefit
is simple:
Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a simple
misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary drawn. But wait until
there's a pile of complaints, and you've already lost dancers and the resolution
will need to be more severe for the offender.
Best regards,
Ron Blechner
On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions on dealing with problem dancers, and the CDU Policy
are thoughtful and useful documents.
We have a different problem here.
One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as creepers or sexual
predators. She reports their misbehavior on behalf of their victims. The victims don't
initiate these reports.*
Many others don't see these men as creepy or inappropriate. Recently one of the
"victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man was a year ago and
she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The man in question had heard only
rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy about some nameless thing he'd done.
This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed should talk to her
about it. We feel that's the Board's job, not hers.
It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing - "naughty-dancer"
problems.
When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife has to wonder if
it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may already have. So, while this
woman is not actually punching anybody in the face, it seems to me that she's
committing violence.
How should we handle this?
I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim has to speak
up (and then our process will usually fix simple miscommunication issues).
We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims know who to talk to.
But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's issues from
poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance?
____
* I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and complaining, so advocacy may be
a good thing. But that's a different discussion. In these situations, there's no
victim; there's no predator; there's just an accusation with little to back it up.
_______________________________________________
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8:44 p.m.
Harassment is real. It's widespread, and pretending it isn't hurts people
and keeps people away from our dances.
Things I have personally witnessed, and when subsequently asked the dancer
whether anything was unusual, they confirmed:
One dancer has a habit of grabbing hip *just* at the butt-line. One of the
young women was 15.
Another dancer intentionally threw a quarter on the ground in front of a
young 20-something lady. I watched in horror as she bent over and picked it
up as he leered.
One dancer did a frontways dip to a 20-something lady which included
torso-torso frontal contact. No permission was asked.
Another dancer came in drunk / high and was dancing wild.
Another dancer has a habit of intentionally shoulder-checked men who have
called him out on his creepiness.
Another dancer was swinging way too close. Turns out he was following a
minor around and asking completely inappropriate questions.
And I have more of these stories. Seriously, the list goes on and on.
I've been dancing far fewer years than many on this list, and danced at
many different dances - this isn't limited to one dance community. And
these are just the stories I've verified.
So are all of your eyes closed?
So... Yeah. I absolutely think that we should keep our eyes open. I think
we should calmly and privately inquire when we think we see inappropriate
behavior. We should be absolutely receptive that sometimes behavior is seen
and a victim is too afraid to step forward on their own.
And we should stop with such flippant and potentially dangerous phrases
like "crying wolf" or that people need to just grow up and "act like an
adult" because bad stuff happens.
On Sep 9, 2015 4:04 PM, "Martha Wild via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Yeah, we had a guy at one dance complain bitterly that
other men were
being creepy with his girlfriend. But when I spoke with her, she said there
was no problem, they'd done no more than gypsy and swing her and
occasionally speak to her with advice on the dance. The more I spoke with
the two of them the more I wanted to yell at the woman - run fast, very
fast, as far away from this control freak as you can!!!! But I suppose it
was not my place to warn her right in front of him. No surprise they never
returned.
Martha
On Sep 9, 2015, at 7:39 AM, Lindsay Morris via Callers wrote:
Appreciate that. Don't think the "where there's smoke there's
fire" issue
applies here, though. It would if there were several *different* women
complaining about one man...
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lindsay,
I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my brevity
comes off as bruskness.
These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra.
As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the source.
Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high level of ensuring that we
ask open-ended questions, and not leading questions.
We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular
announcements about us being available for any reason. Usually 4-7 members
of our board attend any dance.
You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if you're
interested in more specifics.
I would also caution about making such definitive statements as "just an
accusation". In my experience, where there's smoke, there's fire. For every
accusation, there's five people who are too uncomfortable to speak up.
That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of issues. The
biggest benefit is simple:
Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a
simple misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary drawn.
But wait until there's a pile of complaints, and you've already lost
dancers and the resolution will need to be more severe for the offender.
Best regards,
Ron Blechner
On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions
>
<http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Positive-Solutions-Chris.pdf>
> on dealing with problem dancers, and the CDU Policy
>
<http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/09-12-16-CDU-policy-on-inappropriate-behavior.pdf>
> are thoughtful and useful documents.
>
> We have a different problem here.
>
> One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as
> creepers or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on behalf of
> their victims. The victims don't initiate these reports.*
>
> Many others *don't* see these men as creepy or inappropriate. Recently
> one of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man was a year
> ago and she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The man in
> question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy about
> some nameless thing he'd done.
>
> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed should
> talk to her about it. We feel that's the Board's job, not hers.
>
> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing -
> "naughty-dancer" problems.
>
> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife has
> to wonder if it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may already
> have. So, while this woman is not actually punching anybody in the face,
> it seems to me that she's committing violence.
>
> How should we handle this?
>
> - I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim
> has to speak up (and then our process will usually fix simple
> miscommunication issues).
> - We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims know
> who to talk to.
>
> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's issues
> from poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance?
>
> ____
> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and complaining, so
> advocacy may be a good thing. But that's a different discussion. In these
> situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just an
> accusation with little to back it up.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>
_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
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8:48 p.m.
Well, I don't want to fan the flames in this normally cordial and helpful
community.
However, I'm here, and seeing what I'm seeing, and asking for perspective.
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 4:44 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Harassment is real. It's widespread, and
pretending it isn't hurts people
and keeps people away from our dances.
Things I have personally witnessed, and when subsequently asked the dancer
whether anything was unusual, they confirmed:
One dancer has a habit of grabbing hip *just* at the butt-line. One of the
young women was 15.
Another dancer intentionally threw a quarter on the ground in front of a
young 20-something lady. I watched in horror as she bent over and picked it
up as he leered.
One dancer did a frontways dip to a 20-something lady which included
torso-torso frontal contact. No permission was asked.
Another dancer came in drunk / high and was dancing wild.
Another dancer has a habit of intentionally shoulder-checked men who have
called him out on his creepiness.
Another dancer was swinging way too close. Turns out he was following a
minor around and asking completely inappropriate questions.
And I have more of these stories. Seriously, the list goes on and on.
I've been dancing far fewer years than many on this list, and danced at
many different dances - this isn't limited to one dance community. And
these are just the stories I've verified.
So are all of your eyes closed?
So... Yeah. I absolutely think that we should keep our eyes open. I think
we should calmly and privately inquire when we think we see inappropriate
behavior. We should be absolutely receptive that sometimes behavior is seen
and a victim is too afraid to step forward on their own.
And we should stop with such flippant and potentially dangerous phrases
like "crying wolf" or that people need to just grow up and "act like an
adult" because bad stuff happens.
On Sep 9, 2015 4:04 PM, "Martha Wild via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Yeah, we had a guy at one dance complain bitterly
that other men were
being creepy with his girlfriend. But when I spoke with her, she said there
was no problem, they'd done no more than gypsy and swing her and
occasionally speak to her with advice on the dance. The more I spoke with
the two of them the more I wanted to yell at the woman - run fast, very
fast, as far away from this control freak as you can!!!! But I suppose it
was not my place to warn her right in front of him. No surprise they never
returned.
Martha
On Sep 9, 2015, at 7:39 AM, Lindsay Morris via Callers wrote:
Appreciate that. Don't think the "where there's smoke there's
fire"
issue applies here, though. It would if there were several *different*
women complaining about one man...
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
Hi Lindsay,
I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my brevity
comes off as bruskness.
These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra.
As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the source.
Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high level of ensuring that we
ask open-ended questions, and not leading questions.
We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular
announcements about us being available for any reason. Usually 4-7 members
of our board attend any dance.
You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if you're
interested in more specifics.
I would also caution about making such definitive statements as "just an
accusation". In my experience, where there's smoke, there's fire. For every
accusation, there's five people who are too uncomfortable to speak up.
That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of issues.
The biggest benefit is simple:
Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a
simple misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary drawn.
But wait until there's a pile of complaints, and you've already lost
dancers and the resolution will need to be more severe for the offender.
Best regards,
Ron Blechner
On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions
>
<http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Positive-Solutions-Chris.pdf>
> on dealing with problem dancers, and the CDU Policy
>
<http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/09-12-16-CDU-policy-on-inappropriate-behavior.pdf>
> are thoughtful and useful documents.
>
> We have a different problem here.
>
> One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as
> creepers or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on behalf of
> their victims. The victims don't initiate these reports.*
>
> Many others *don't* see these men as creepy or inappropriate.
> Recently one of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man
> was a year ago and she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The
> man in question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy
> about some nameless thing he'd done.
>
> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed
> should talk to her about it. We feel that's the Board's job, not hers.
>
> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing -
> "naughty-dancer" problems.
>
> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife
> has to wonder if it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may
> already have. So, while this woman is not actually punching anybody in the
> face, it seems to me that she's committing violence.
>
> How should we handle this?
>
> - I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim
> has to speak up (and then our process will usually fix simple
> miscommunication issues).
> - We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims
> know who to talk to.
>
> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's issues
> from poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance?
>
> ____
> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and complaining,
> so advocacy may be a good thing. But that's a different discussion. In
> these situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just
an
> accusation with little to back it up.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
8:53 p.m.
Here's the thing:
- There really is harassment, creepy behavior, etc.
- There really are cases where third parties see those things and
they aren't actually there in the eyes of the perceived victim
So organizers have to keep their eyes open and review things on a case
by case basis. Because one organizer has seen unjustified third-party
charges of harrassment doesn't mean this particular case is one of
those; because another organizer can multiply real examples of
unacceptable behavior doesn't mean this particular case is one of them.
It doesn't, in my view, help discourse to tell people who have real
experiences on one side or the other of that that they're not taking the
situation seriously enough / taking the situation too seriously and,
implicitly, that your experiences trump their experiences.
-- Alan
On 9/9/15 1:44 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers wrote:
Harassment is real. It's widespread, and pretending it isn't hurts
people and keeps people away from our dances.
Things I have personally witnessed, and when subsequently asked the
dancer whether anything was unusual, they confirmed:
One dancer has a habit of grabbing hip *just* at the butt-line. One of
the young women was 15.
Another dancer intentionally threw a quarter on the ground in front of
a young 20-something lady. I watched in horror as she bent over and
picked it up as he leered.
One dancer did a frontways dip to a 20-something lady which included
torso-torso frontal contact. No permission was asked.
Another dancer came in drunk / high and was dancing wild.
Another dancer has a habit of intentionally shoulder-checked men who
have called him out on his creepiness.
Another dancer was swinging way too close. Turns out he was following
a minor around and asking completely inappropriate questions.
And I have more of these stories. Seriously, the list goes on and on.
I've been dancing far fewer years than many on this list, and danced
at many different dances - this isn't limited to one dance community.
And these are just the stories I've verified.
So are all of your eyes closed?
So... Yeah. I absolutely think that we should keep our eyes open. I
think we should calmly and privately inquire when we think we see
inappropriate behavior. We should be absolutely receptive that
sometimes behavior is seen and a victim is too afraid to step forward
on their own.
And we should stop with such flippant and potentially dangerous
phrases like "crying wolf" or that people need to just grow up and
"act like an adult" because bad stuff happens.
On Sep 9, 2015 4:04 PM, "Martha Wild via Callers"
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Yeah, we had a guy at one dance complain bitterly that other men
were being creepy with his girlfriend. But when I spoke with her,
she said there was no problem, they'd done no more than gypsy and
swing her and occasionally speak to her with advice on the dance.
The more I spoke with the two of them the more I wanted to yell at
the woman - run fast, very fast, as far away from this control
freak as you can!!!! But I suppose it was not my place to warn her
right in front of him. No surprise they never returned.
Martha
On Sep 9, 2015, at 7:39 AM, Lindsay Morris via Callers wrote:
Appreciate that. Don't think the
"where there's smoke there's
fire" issue applies here, though. It would if there were several
*different* women complaining about one man...
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900 <tel:1-859-539-9900>
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com <mailto:lindsay@tsmworks.com>
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner
<contraron(a)gmail.com <mailto:contraron@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Lindsay,
I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if
my brevity comes off as bruskness.
These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra.
As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out
the source. Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high
level of ensuring that we ask open-ended questions, and not
leading questions.
We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular
announcements about us being available for any reason.
Usually 4-7 members of our board attend any dance.
You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer,
if you're interested in more specifics.
I would also caution about making such definitive statements
as "just an accusation". In my experience, where there's
smoke, there's fire. For every accusation, there's five
people who are too uncomfortable to speak up.
That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of
issues. The biggest benefit is simple:
Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe
it's a simple misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a
clear boundary drawn. But wait until there's a pile of
complaints, and you've already lost dancers and the
resolution will need to be more severe for the offender.
Best regards,
Ron Blechner
On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions
<http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Positive-Solutions-Chris.pdf>
on dealing with problem dancers, and the CDU Policy
<http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/09-12-16-CDU-policy-on-inappropriate-behavior.pdf>
are thoughtful and useful documents.
We have a different problem here.
One woman often complains to board members about men she
sees as creepers or sexual predators. She reports their
misbehavior on behalf of their victims. The victims don't
initiate these reports.*
Many others *don't* see these men as creepy or
inappropriate. Recently one of the "victims" clarified
that her discomfort with the man was a year ago and she'd
long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The man in
question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman
was unhappy about some nameless thing he'd done.
This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel
harassed should talk to her about it. We feel that's the
Board's job, not hers.
It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even
inventing - "naughty-dancer" problems.
When a married man gets accused of being a sexual
predator, his wife has to wonder if it's true. This adds
to any marital tensions they may already have. So, while
this woman is not actually punching anybody in the face,
it seems to me that she's committing violence.
How should we handle this?
* I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy -
i.e., the victim has to speak up (and then our
process will usually fix simple miscommunication issues).
* We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine
victims know who to talk to.
But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one
person's issues from poisoning the atmosphere of a
mostly friendly dance?
____
* I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and
complaining, so advocacy may be a good thing. But that's
a different discussion. In these situations, there's no
victim; there's no predator; there's just an accusation
with little to back it up.
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9:08 p.m.
New subject: Solutions for callers for dealing with problem dancers
OK, I think we have talked at each other for awhile now, arguing whether or not harassment
is rampant at our dances. I think it would be nice if we could now discuss solutions we
as CALLERS (remember, this is a callers' list, not an organizers' list) can and
should do with respect to this. If anyone has any ideas, some positive solutions, I am
open and receptive to hearing them.
Perry
9:30 p.m.
New subject: Solutions for callers for dealing with problem dancers
As a caller I try to include something in my beginners' sessions that tells
people how to quickly refuse a dance without giving a reason.
Seattle-area caller, LauraMé Smith often demonstrates how NOT to gypsy (so
that the other person is always trying to get away from you), and she does
it early in the evening, on the floor, with a chosen accomplice, and with
humor.
-Amy Wimmer
On Sep 9, 2015, at 2:08 PM, Perry Shafran via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
OK, I think we have talked at each other for awhile now, arguing whether or
not harassment is rampant at our dances. I think it would be nice if we
could now discuss solutions we as CALLERS (remember, this is a callers'
list, not an organizers' list) can and should do with respect to this. If
anyone has any ideas, some positive solutions, I am open and receptive to
hearing them.
Perry
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11:12 p.m.
New subject: Solutions for callers for dealing with problem dancers
Here's a good anti-creep tactic for beginner sessions. Sorry to generalize, the usual
suspect is an older unattached man who comes early and makes himself all too available to
the prettiest new dancer. Before you know it, he's running his own 1-on-1 workshop.
I let him go for a while, but when it appears the behavior is predatory I get them in a
circle and teach them how to allemande. Then I say "With this partner allemande R 1
1/2, then move on to the next and allemande L 1 1/2, then to the next and allemande R 1
1/2, etc." until creep and prey are far apart, and then " take this one as your
new partner for some more." This also breaks up those newbie couples who came joined
at the hip. Of course, at the same time they're learning a progression and how to
adjust to each neighbor, so it's seems like real teaching.
This circle technique also works well to safely teach swings. Now those
"gentlemen" who forced me to learn this no longer come early when I'm
calling -
Bob
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 14:30:30 -0700
To: pshaf(a)yahoo.com
CC: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] Solutions for callers for dealing with problem dancers
From: callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
As a caller I try to include something in my beginners' sessions that tells people how
to quickly refuse a dance without giving a reason.
Seattle-area caller, LauraMé Smith often demonstrates how NOT to gypsy (so that the other
person is always trying to get away from you), and she does it early in the evening, on
the floor, with a chosen accomplice, and with humor.
-Amy Wimmer
On Sep 9, 2015, at 2:08 PM, Perry Shafran via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
OK, I think we have talked at each other for awhile now, arguing whether or not harassment
is rampant at our dances. I think it would be nice if we could now discuss solutions we
as CALLERS (remember, this is a callers' list, not an organizers' list) can and
should do with respect to this. If anyone has any ideas, some positive solutions, I am
open and receptive to hearing them.
Perry
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Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
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16 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
Alan Winston via Callers -
Amy Wimmer via Callers
-
Bob Isaacs via Callers
-
Erik Hoffman via Callers
-
Lindsay Morris via Callers
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Lisa Greenleaf via Callers
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Martha Wild via Callers
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Neal Schlein via Callers
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Perry Shafran via Callers
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Ron Blechner via Callers
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Yoyo Zhou via Callers