First, sorry for the inadvertent sending of no message.

Second, although I agree with Lisa that it's great to have dancers take care of themselves and not call them "victims," and, if a dancer tells me about a specific situation with another dancer, her approach is commendable. But, two things:

1) When there is a dancer -- most commonly the older man seeking to "take over" the training of the new dancer -- there's a problem. This problem is that new dancers has no stake in the dance. If her (or his) enjoyment is reduced, they have no real reason to report it, and a good reason to never come back. OK, they may not be "a victim" though they receive the brunt of a behavior that causes them discomfort. It's not up to them to discourage such activity -- they have an easy way out: "why would I bother going there again?" So, it's up to those of us with a stake in the dance to interrupt such behavior.

2) If there is a regular dancer who's stake isn't so strong, and they don't feel willing or comfortable with direct confrontation, they, too, may just stop coming.

So, ultimately it is all of us who need to agree on the range of acceptable behavior and address each incident as needed. It might be totally appropriate to encourage a dancer to stand up for herself (or himself). It might be the best course for organizers to step in and assist a change in behavior. It might be for a caller to teach a styling point. And it's good for we with a large stake in the dance to know how people are feeling, about each other, about the dance, about problems.

Listening to both sides is also important.

I've mentioned this before, but in the Bay Area (SF) we had a woman once who wrote a letter to the board and had a restraining order against a man she had been involved with. The board sent out a copy of her letter with the note that we call the police if the man decided not to leave a dance when she was present. We got into a lot of hot water because we included her story, and this was prior to checking with the man. Many of us became aware later that the woman had a history of crying wolf, really tried to use the restraining order to hurt the man (like filing a complaint of him being too close as he was driving out of a parking lot into which she was pulling in -- their cars passed within the 50 ft limit...).

We learned to inform our managers that when a restraining order incident comes up, call the police and don't take sides, and to listen to both sides of a case, and not send out one person's testimony...

~erik hoffman
oakland, ca

On 9/10/2015 11:14 AM, Lindsay Morris via Callers wrote:

Great point, thanks Lisa.

On Thursday, September 10, 2015, Lisa Greenleaf via Callers <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

Hi Everyone-

I am cringing every time I read the word victim. VIctim implies powerlessness, so why not use the word dancer and encourage self-empowerment?

Sometimes dancers approach me because I am an official organizer, and other times friends of the person approach me because they know I might be able to help. My first question around complaints is always, “Did you talk with the person whose behavior bothered you?” And then I model an “I” statement for them: “I don’t like that,” “I don’t feel comfortable dancing with you because I don’t like to be twirled,” etc.

Of course, most people find it difficult to talk directly to the person disturbing them, but it’s still worth encouraging, especially if you show them how to do it. You are teaching them a real-world skill that they can use outside of the dance.

When a dancer approaches me with a complaint, I don’t see them as a victim who needs rescuing. For one thing, I don’t know the real situation until I have heard both sides of the story. Yes, the situation may expand to a larger problem, but even then I don’t change “dancer” (or more specifically, the name of the person) to “victim.”

Lisa

> On Sep 9, 2015, at 8:02 PM, Yoyo Zhou via Callers <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Taking you at face value: if you have a systemic problem, you need a
> policy. If you have a problem with one person, you need to come to
> terms with that person. I'm not sure if it's just the board, or if
> other dancers also have issues with her. But if you seek mediation,
> take notes on your interactions so you have evidence to back yourself
> up.
>
>
> Now, I think the last thing you need is a policy requiring victims to
> speak up. It's counterproductive to making a safe dance space. (Let's
> discuss that on the other thread.)
>
> Let's say I'm new to your dance and I have a bad experience with
> someone. What do I do? I might complain about it to my friends who
> convinced me to come. I might just avoid that person. I might just go
> home dissatisfied. One of the last things I might do is complain to
> the management (and I might view that woman as an extension thereof),
> because who knows if they'll just shrug it off and not take me
> seriously?
>
>
> Also, you wrote, "it seems to me that she's committing violence." No,
> I disagree. This totally cheapens the meaning of "violence". What
> words do you use for when punches are actually thrown? (It's happened
> at a dance here.)
>
> Yoyo Zhou
>
> On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers
> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> Maybe. Maybe not. My point was that we should be very, very careful about
>> making a definitive statement about something being "just an accusation",
>> especially when in your example, there was a second problem - even if it was
>> a year earlier.
>>
>> On Sep 9, 2015 10:39 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
>> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Appreciate that. Don't think the "where there's smoke there's fire" issue
>>> applies here, though. It would if there were several different women
>>> complaining about one man...
>>>
>>> --------------------
>>> Lindsay Morris
>>> CEO, TSMworks
>>> Tel. 1-859-539-9900
>>> lindsay@tsmworks.com
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner <contraron@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Lindsay,
>>>>
>>>> I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my brevity
>>>> comes off as bruskness.
>>>>
>>>> These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra.
>>>>
>>>> As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the source.
>>>> Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high level of ensuring that we ask
>>>> open-ended questions, and not leading questions.
>>>>
>>>> We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular
>>>> announcements about us being available for any reason. Usually 4-7 members
>>>> of our board attend any dance.
>>>>
>>>> You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if you're
>>>> interested in more specifics.
>>>>
>>>> I would also caution about making such definitive statements as "just an
>>>> accusation". In my experience, where there's smoke, there's fire. For every
>>>> accusation, there's five people who are too uncomfortable to speak up.
>>>>
>>>> That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of issues. The
>>>> biggest benefit is simple:
>>>>
>>>> Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a
>>>> simple misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary drawn. But
>>>> wait until there's a pile of complaints, and you've already lost dancers and
>>>> the resolution will need to be more severe for the offender.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Ron Blechner
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
>>>> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions on dealing with problem dancers, and
>>>>> the CDU Policy are thoughtful and useful documents.
>>>>>
>>>>> We have a different problem here.
>>>>>
>>>>> One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as
>>>>> creepers or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on behalf of
>>>>> their victims. The victims don't initiate these reports.*
>>>>>
>>>>> Many others don't see these men as creepy or inappropriate. Recently
>>>>> one of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man was a year
>>>>> ago and she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The man in
>>>>> question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy about
>>>>> some nameless thing he'd done.
>>>>>
>>>>> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed should
>>>>> talk to her about it. We feel that's the Board's job, not hers.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing -
>>>>> "naughty-dancer" problems.
>>>>>
>>>>> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife has
>>>>> to wonder if it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may already
>>>>> have. So, while this woman is not actually punching anybody in the face, it
>>>>> seems to me that she's committing violence.
>>>>>
>>>>> How should we handle this?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim has to
>>>>> speak up (and then our process will usually fix simple miscommunication
>>>>> issues).
>>>>> We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims know who
>>>>> to talk to.
>>>>>
>>>>> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's issues
>>>>> from poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance?
>>>>>
>>>>> ____
>>>>> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and complaining, so
>>>>> advocacy may be a good thing. But that's a different discussion. In these
>>>>> situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just an
>>>>> accusation with little to back it up.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Callers mailing list
>>>>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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Lisa

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--
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay@tsmworks.com
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