15 Feb
2014
15 Feb
'14
2:25 p.m.
Folks,
There are a lot of different perspectives and opinions represented here.
That is a great value of this list and we can all benefit from hearing the
full spectrum of ideas.
But please try to avoid personal attacks against anyone. If you disagree
with someone we can still coexist and learn from one another. That is the
value of this kind of media. Personal attacks will only stifle the free
exchange of ideas. That free exchange is why we are here.
We don't need to agree with everything posted here to maintain a civil and
productive conversation.
Sincerely,
Greg McKenzie
15 Feb
15 Feb
2:33 p.m.
Well, you might want to walk this one back, then:
> "The dancers in your video look like a
competent group of regulars who
are
> able to adapt to poorly-structured calls quickly
and graciously. I'm sure
> they have a lot of practice at it. I find it very productive to be more
> diligent in my own calling."
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 2:25 PM, Greg McKenzie <grekenzie(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Folks,
There are a lot of different perspectives and opinions represented here.
That is a great value of this list and we can all benefit from hearing the
full spectrum of ideas.
But please try to avoid personal attacks against anyone. If you disagree
with someone we can still coexist and learn from one another. That is the
value of this kind of media. Personal attacks will only stifle the free
exchange of ideas. That free exchange is why we are here.
We don't need to agree with everything posted here to maintain a civil and
productive conversation.
Sincerely,
Greg McKenzie
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
3:13 p.m.
Agreed, Lindsay. Especially when Greg's original comment was followed by:
"Referring to 3 videos sent by Jim Saxe, the calling on those videos by Steve Zakon-
Anderson, Karen Jackson and Maggie Cowan."
which is what prompted Jean Francis' objection. There's no place on SW for a
caller denigrating the performance of other callers with terms such as
"poorly-structured calls."
Bob
From: lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2014 14:33:30 -0500
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] A Call For Civility
Well, you might want to walk this one back, then:
> "The dancers in your video look like a
competent group of regulars who
are
> able to adapt to poorly-structured calls
quickly and graciously. I'm sure
> they have a lot of practice at it. I find it very productive to be more
> diligent in my own calling."
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 2:25 PM, Greg McKenzie <grekenzie(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Folks,
There are a lot of different perspectives and opinions represented here.
That is a great value of this list and we can all benefit from hearing the
full spectrum of ideas.
But please try to avoid personal attacks against anyone. If you disagree
with someone we can still coexist and learn from one another. That is the
value of this kind of media. Personal attacks will only stifle the free
exchange of ideas. That free exchange is why we are here.
We don't need to agree with everything posted here to maintain a civil and
productive conversation.
Sincerely,
Greg McKenzie
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
3:27 p.m.
Lindsay wrote:
Well, you might want to walk this one back, then:
Alright. I only watched part of the first video. I didn't really note who
the caller was. And I certainly didn't mention any caller. (The names of
the callers were inserted into my post by a subsequent poster. I never
mentioned them.) I was trying to make the point that this was a group of
regular contra dancers, with few, if any, first-timers in the crowd. Since
there are no callers I know of who use structured calls regularly it is a
sure bet that these folks have had lots of experience interpreting
unstructured calls.
I seldom call for such experienced groups. Consequently I use structured
calls more than most callers do to maintain the confidence of newcomers. I
should have been more clear in my post, and I should have anticipated that
some folks might take it personally. I'm sorry about that. As a policy I
try to avoid taking anything posted here personally unless it has my name
on it.
- Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA
> "The dancers in your video look like a
competent group of regulars who
are
> able to adapt to poorly-structured calls
quickly and graciously. I'm
sure
> they have a lot of practice at it. I find it
very productive to be more
> diligent in my own calling."
3:44 p.m.
[posting because I feel like geeking about communication styles rather
than because I care much about this particular thread]
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014, Greg McKenzie wrote:
I seldom call for such experienced groups. Consequently I use
structured calls more than most callers do to maintain the confidence
of newcomers. I should have been more clear in my post, and I should
have anticipated that some folks might take it personally. I'm sorry
about that. As a policy I try to avoid taking anything posted here
personally unless it has my name on it.
What people perceive as personal varies widely. Civility also varies
widely, and I for one often see calls for civility as another form of
the tone argument:
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument
Following up your faux pas with a call for civility after you got
attacked for your mistake does very little to settle ruffled feathers.
(Speaking as someone who does more than my fair share of feather
ruffling -- I have a lot of experience.)
In fact, it's arguably a form of nonpology:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
4:15 p.m.
Aahz wrote:
Following up your faux pas with a call for civility
after you got
attacked for your mistake does very little to settle ruffled feathers.
(Speaking as someone who does more than my fair share of feather
ruffling -- I have a lot of experience.)
With your experience you probably know that efforts to settle ruffled
feathers are seldom very successful. I'm only asking for civility.
Seriously. I don't even expect an apology.
Ruffling feathers is permissible. Personal attacks are just
counter-productive...unless the real purpose is to stifle the expression of
ideas we disagree with. The attacks can discourage others from discussing
new ideas openly. That's the danger.
Is this a forum where we can freely express our ideas about calling...or
not?
That's the real question.
- Greg McKenzie
3:58 p.m.
Greg,
I am afraid I fine it ironic at the very least, for you to call for a more
civil discourse. Your tone has been so denigrating and disrespectful of
others for so long that I too have been ignoring your posts pretty
regularly. That is easy enough. But when I read that a caller as well
established as Martha Wild has not posted for a long time because of the
treatment she received from you on this list, I am much more worried. Far
from encouraging an open exchange this is evidence that you have stifled it.
As I remember it, folks posting here have tried to point this out to you
several times in the past.
Moderators,
I propose that Greg not be allowed to post here for perhaps a month. I do
not take such a step lightly and rather than suppressing free speech, this
would encourge it.
Rickey Holt
-----Original Message-----
From: callers-bounces(a)sharedweight.net
[mailto:callers-bounces@sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Greg McKenzie
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 3:28 PM
To: Caller's discussion list
Subject: Re: [Callers] A Call For Civility
Lindsay wrote:
Well, you might want to walk this one back, then:
Alright. I only watched part of the first video. I didn't really note who
the caller was. And I certainly didn't mention any caller. (The names of
the callers were inserted into my post by a subsequent poster. I never
mentioned them.) I was trying to make the point that this was a group of
regular contra dancers, with few, if any, first-timers in the crowd. Since
there are no callers I know of who use structured calls regularly it is a
sure bet that these folks have had lots of experience interpreting
unstructured calls.
I seldom call for such experienced groups. Consequently I use structured
calls more than most callers do to maintain the confidence of newcomers. I
should have been more clear in my post, and I should have anticipated that
some folks might take it personally. I'm sorry about that. As a policy I
try to avoid taking anything posted here personally unless it has my name on
it.
- Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
> "The dancers in your video look like a
competent group of regulars
> who
are
> able to adapt to poorly-structured calls
quickly and graciously.
> I'm
sure
> they have a lot of practice at it. I find it
very productive to be
> more diligent in my own calling."
4:46 p.m.
Folks,
Well, I think I have an answer to my question.
I have experienced this kind of thing before and it seems obvious where it
is going. It is also becoming clearer to me where it comes from.
I am saddened by this turn of events. The truth is that it is too
stressful to attempt to continue in this environment. I have enjoyed the
discussions with many of you and I will miss hearing your ideas. If you do
wish to contact me directly please do so. I would love to hear from you.
And I would be happy to answer any questions you may have.
And if you would like to talk about the future of contra dance calling in
another forum please do contact me. Perhaps we can come up with a way to
do that. There is much, much to discuss.
My best wishes to all of you.
Greg McKenzie
grekenzie(a)gmail.com
1435 Myrtle Ave.
Coos Bay, OR 97420
(831) 325-7627
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Rickey Holt <holt.e(a)comcast.net> wrote:
Greg,
I am afraid I fine it ironic at the very least, for you to call for a more
civil discourse. Your tone has been so denigrating and disrespectful of
others for so long that I too have been ignoring your posts pretty
regularly. That is easy enough. But when I read that a caller as well
established as Martha Wild has not posted for a long time because of the
treatment she received from you on this list, I am much more worried. Far
from encouraging an open exchange this is evidence that you have stifled
it.
As I remember it, folks posting here have tried to point this out to you
several times in the past.
Moderators,
I propose that Greg not be allowed to post here for perhaps a month. I do
not take such a step lightly and rather than suppressing free speech, this
would encourge it.
Rickey Holt
-----Original Message-----
From: callers-bounces(a)sharedweight.net
[mailto:callers-bounces@sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Greg McKenzie
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 3:28 PM
To: Caller's discussion list
Subject: Re: [Callers] A Call For Civility
Lindsay wrote:
Well, you might want to walk this one back,
then:
Alright. I only watched part of the first video. I didn't really note who
the caller was. And I certainly didn't mention any caller. (The names of
the callers were inserted into my post by a subsequent poster. I never
mentioned them.) I was trying to make the point that this was a group of
regular contra dancers, with few, if any, first-timers in the crowd. Since
there are no callers I know of who use structured calls regularly it is a
sure bet that these folks have had lots of experience interpreting
unstructured calls.
I seldom call for such experienced groups. Consequently I use structured
calls more than most callers do to maintain the confidence of newcomers. I
should have been more clear in my post, and I should have anticipated that
some folks might take it personally. I'm sorry about that. As a policy I
try to avoid taking anything posted here personally unless it has my name
on
it.
- Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
> "The dancers in your video look like a
competent group of regulars
> who
are
> able to adapt to poorly-structured calls
quickly and graciously.
> I'm
sure
> they have a lot of practice at it. I find it
very productive to be
> more diligent in my own calling."
5:59 p.m.
Drawing on my fine command of language, I say nothing.
On Feb 15, 2014, at 4:46 PM, Greg McKenzie
<grekenzie(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Folks,
Well, I think I have an answer to my question.
I have experienced this kind of thing before and it seems obvious where it
is going. It is also becoming clearer to me where it comes from.
I am saddened by this turn of events. The truth is that it is too
stressful to attempt to continue in this environment. I have enjoyed the
discussions with many of you and I will miss hearing your ideas. If you do
wish to contact me directly please do so. I would love to hear from you.
And I would be happy to answer any questions you may have.
And if you would like to talk about the future of contra dance calling in
another forum please do contact me. Perhaps we can come up with a way to
do that. There is much, much to discuss.
My best wishes to all of you.
Greg McKenzie
grekenzie(a)gmail.com
1435 Myrtle Ave.
Coos Bay, OR 97420
(831) 325-7627
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Rickey Holt
<holt.e(a)comcast.net> wrote:
Greg,
I am afraid I fine it ironic at the very least, for you to call for a more
civil discourse. Your tone has been so denigrating and disrespectful of
others for so long that I too have been ignoring your posts pretty
regularly. That is easy enough. But when I read that a caller as well
established as Martha Wild has not posted for a long time because of the
treatment she received from you on this list, I am much more worried. Far
from encouraging an open exchange this is evidence that you have stifled
it.
As I remember it, folks posting here have tried to point this out to you
several times in the past.
Moderators,
I propose that Greg not be allowed to post here for perhaps a month. I do
not take such a step lightly and rather than suppressing free speech, this
would encourge it.
Rickey Holt
-----Original Message-----
From: callers-bounces(a)sharedweight.net
[mailto:callers-bounces@sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Greg McKenzie
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 3:28 PM
To: Caller's discussion list
Subject: Re: [Callers] A Call For Civility
Lindsay wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers Well, you might want to walk this one back,
then:
Alright. I only watched part of the first video. I didn't really note who
the caller was. And I certainly didn't mention any caller. (The names of
the callers were inserted into my post by a subsequent poster. I never
mentioned them.) I was trying to make the point that this was a group of
regular contra dancers, with few, if any, first-timers in the crowd. Since
there are no callers I know of who use structured calls regularly it is a
sure bet that these folks have had lots of experience interpreting
unstructured calls.
I seldom call for such experienced groups. Consequently I use structured
calls more than most callers do to maintain the confidence of newcomers. I
should have been more clear in my post, and I should have anticipated that
some folks might take it personally. I'm sorry about that. As a policy I
try to avoid taking anything posted here personally unless it has my name
on
it.
- Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers > "The dancers in your video look like a
competent group of regulars
> who
are
> able to adapt to poorly-structured calls
quickly and graciously.
> I'm
sure
>> they have a lot of practice at it. I find it very productive to be
>> more diligent in my own calling." 
17 Feb
17 Feb
5:49 p.m.
Fully agree. Well put, well thought out. Every sentence is right on.
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 2/15/14, Rickey Holt <holt.e(a)comcast.net> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Callers] A Call For Civility
To: "'Caller's discussion list'" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Date: Saturday, February 15, 2014, 1:58 PM
Greg,
I am afraid I fine it ironic at the very least, for
you to call for a more
civil discourse. Your tone has been so denigrating and
disrespectful of
others for so long that I too have been ignoring your posts
pretty
regularly. That is easy enough. But when I read that a
caller as well
established as Martha Wild has not posted for a long time
because of the
treatment she received from you on this list, I am much more
worried. Far
from encouraging an open exchange this is evidence that you
have stifled it.
As I remember it, folks posting here have tried to point
this out to you
several times in the past.
Moderators,
I propose that Greg not be allowed to post here for perhaps
a month. I do
not take such a step lightly and rather than suppressing
free speech, this
would encourge it.
Rickey Holt
-----Original Message-----
From: callers-bounces(a)sharedweight.net
[mailto:callers-bounces@sharedweight.net]
On Behalf Of Greg McKenzie
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 3:28 PM
To: Caller's discussion list
Subject: Re: [Callers] A Call For Civility
Lindsay wrote:
quickly and graciously.
very productive to be
Alright. I only watched part of the first video.
I didn't really note who
the caller was. And I certainly didn't mention any
caller. (The names of
the callers were inserted into my post by a subsequent
poster. I never
mentioned them.) I was trying to make the point that
this was a group of
regular contra dancers, with few, if any, first-timers in
the crowd. Since
there are no callers I know of who use structured calls
regularly it is a
sure bet that these folks have had lots of experience
interpreting
unstructured calls.
I seldom call for such experienced groups.
Consequently I use structured
calls more than most callers do to maintain the confidence
of newcomers. I
should have been more clear in my post, and I should have
anticipated that
some folks might take it personally. I'm sorry about
that. As a policy I
try to avoid taking anything posted here personally unless
it has my name on
it.
- Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
Well, you might want to walk this one back, then:
>> "The dancers in your video look like a
competent group of regulars
> who
are
>> able to adapt to poorly-structured calls > I'm
sure
>> they have a lot of practice at it. I find it > more
diligent in my own calling."
3933
days inactive
3935
days old
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
9 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Aahz Maruch -
Bob Isaacs -
Greg McKenzie -
jean francis -
Lindsay Morris -
Rickey Holt