17 Feb
2014
17 Feb
'14
5:43 p.m.
OK, I don't usually enter these discussions because, although I find reading the posts
interesting, by the time I see them, every possible opinion has already been expressed,
with approximately equal vehemence on all sides, and as a result I don't usually feel
that I have much to add. However, in this case I'll chime in that I agree with Eric,
that the interlocking thumbs is rather nice, at least for those who can tolerate it. For
one thing, it is how I learned to dance, and it feels more "right" that way.
For another, it provides (in my opinion) a more firm connection between the dancers.
(Here, Larry Jennings' description - in Zesty Contras - of what he called a
"zesty" dancing style comes to mind.) But, as I point out in my beginners'
sessions, some people - I am married to one - prefer not to have their thumbs involved, so
they will come to you "without a thumb showing"… so, take what they give you and
work with it. No big deal.
Someone pointed out that the interlocking thumb grip doesn't fit their style of
dancing, because (I gather) they do a lot of spinning, or something. That's fine,
don't use the interlocking grip. In fact, please don't. No big deal. My main
point is that personally, I would find it a loss if the interlocking grip went away
entirely. I enjoy using it with others who know how to use it.
On Feb 17, 2014, at 9:00 AM, callers-request(a)sharedweight.net wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Dances with three or more allemandes (Michael Fuerst)
2. Re: Dances with three or more allemandes (Michael Dyck)
3. Re: allemandes (Russell Frank)
4. Re: Dances with three or more allemandes (Jerome Grisanti)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 09:43:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Fuerst <mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] Dances with three or more allemandes
Message-ID:
<1392572591.59857.YahooMailNeo(a)web140705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Thanks you Joy and Les for the suggested dances. ? ?
Does anyone have additional suggestions?
I think what I had in mind are dances where everyone allemandes 1 1/2 at least once plus
allemande 3/4 or more at least one additional time
?
Michael Fuerst ? ? ?802 N Broadway ? ? ?Urbana IL 61801?????? 217-239-5844
On Sunday, February 16, 2014 10:25 AM, Aahz Maruch <aahz(a)pobox.com> wrote:
On Sun, Feb 16, 2014, Erik Hoffman wrote:
On 2/15/2014 10:32 PM, Aahz Maruch wrote:
Oddly enough, as has been pointed out here, you are a somewhat large-ish
man -- that means your personal safety requirements are not necessarily
what's appropriate for the general dancer population.
So yeah, it's pretty much all about safety from my POV.? Any kind of
spinning move out of allemande or wave risks yanking the thumb.? And
actually, my concern is more about waves than allemandes: the grip is
mostly the same for both and the spinning half-sashy is pretty much
standard these days.
I have no idea what you mean by "guideposts", though; from my POV either
the thumbs are interlocked or they're not.? (If each person's thumb can
touch the other person's webbing between thumb and forefinger they're
interlocked.)
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://rule6.info/
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? <*>? ? ? ? ? <*>? ? ? ? ? <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 10:46:27 -0800
From: Michael Dyck <jmdyck(a)ibiblio.org>
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] Dances with three or more allemandes
Message-ID: <53010783.1040809(a)ibiblio.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 14-02-15 10:18 AM, Michael Fuerst wrote:
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014, Michael Fuerst wrote:
So, Aahz, why do you want to eliminate it? I'm talking about the
thumbs up as guideposts, fingers hooked around the others hand, a
hook, not a grip, wrists straight, fingers curved. Is it just the
safety issue? I play music. I teach music. I worry a lot about my
hands! I have things I do to protect myself, and I don't let people
grab and grip, or bend my wrist in some painful way.
I should have said thumbs an wrapped around the other's hand.
Interlocked was the wrong.
<whew> I do know people who believe that interlocked thumbs are
correct, and I've been on a campaign to discourage the practice. ;-)
So I am asking for dances which have at least three, and preferably four allemandes
Searching my personal collection, I find:
6 allemandes:
"Al's Half a Heyday" [Al Olson] (but 2 are only 1/2)
5 allemandes:
"Jeffro's Tree" [Don Flaherty]
"Chuck the Budgie" [Rick Mohr]
"Remember the Alamo" [Gene Hubert] (but 4 are only 1/2)
4 allemandes:
"Two Whos in the Middle" [Al Olson]
"Chichester House Reel" [Steve Zakon]
"Dr Brown's Prescription" [David Kirchner]
4 allemandes, one of which is only 1/2:
"Coal Country Contra" [Ron Buchanan]
"Eric on Mondays" [David Kaynor]
"Al's Answer" [Al Olson -> David Kaynor]
"Hey in the Middle" [Tom Hinds]
"Thinking of John" [Erik Hoffman]
"Hull's Surprise" [Tom Hinds]
4 allemandes, two of which are only 1/2:
"Batja's Breakdown" [Tom Hinds]
"Ben's Spinoff #3" [Gene Hubert]
"Ben's Spinoff #2" [Gene Hubert]
"Southern Swing" [Steve Zakon]
"Fuller Park Fantasy" [Paul Balliet]
"Sunday on the Green" [Jim Kitch] (circle mixer)
-Michael
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 11:40:45 -0800
From: Russell Frank <russell.knarf(a)gmail.com>
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] allemandes
Message-ID:
<CABSg-QF9RQavoNX5h_yaQCb12pwX3YeKRri=w26NsmEWk-TvHQ(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Allemandes are my most frequent subject for rants, so I'll weigh in here
(briefly) as a very experienced dancer/ inexperienced caller. As a dancer,
the thing I have found most helpful personally is to make sure to keep my
hand well away from my chest and at least somewhat to the side. This allows
me free movement and gives me room to adjust to whatever the other person
may be doing. If I want to give more or less weight, I can use my bicep,
without straining wrist and fingers. (I also need to take larger steps or
walk faster to get around.) I'm not sure anything an ordinary caller says
can help much at this point, but pointing out that the arm should be
extended seems non-controversial and might help.
At least in theory, I'm in favor of using thumbs as guideposts, because
they almost guarantee a good hand alignment (in my opinion), which is hard
to achieve otherwise. Disengaging the thumbs is an option, but it often
doesn't happen in the heat of dancing. In practice, I understand the need
to dance defensively, but the avoidance of thumbs has created some awful
habits.
Russell Frank
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 20:09:41 -0600
From: Jerome Grisanti <jerome.grisanti(a)gmail.com>
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] Dances with three or more allemandes
Message-ID:
<CAD6SnUS+KoxRp5v3f_K8O805GZDbskLmcz79_f_JRAjfU3bxBQ(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Aahz wrote to Erik:
I have no idea what you mean by "guideposts", though; from my POV either
the thumbs are interlocked or they're not. (If each person's thumb can
touch the other person's webbing between thumb and forefinger they're
interlocked.)
I believe most dancers can make a distinction between holding your hand in
a position (e.g. with interlocking thumbs), and gripping based on that same
position. How can we best communicate that difference?
I ask people to feel the connection through their entire arm, and their
entire body, and I avoid the term "grip" as well. Also, I find that when
the music is faster than people are comfortable with, they tend to grip
more -- so before asking the dancers to change I might first start with the
band or other factors.
I also remind dancers that they will eventually let go of the hand
connection they've made, and to make sure they allow other dancers to leave
them comfortably.
Also, Lindsay spoke of saying "ouch," adjusting the offending hand, and
saying "sorry, carpal tunnel." This has the benefit of making it about him
-- "this is what works for me" -- moreso than making it about the other
person -- "you're doing it wrong." Hard to do in a short time without
practice, but worth practicing that attitude as a dancer so you can
communicate quickly and effectively. (Upon re-reading, this does appear to
support scripting comments for common quandaries).
--Jerome
--
Jerome Grisanti
660-528-0858
http://www.jeromegrisanti.com
"We should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least
once."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
End of Callers Digest, Vol 114, Issue 33
****************************************
17 Feb
17 Feb
6:10 p.m.
New subject: Allemandes
My 2¢, for what it's worth:
The worst that happens without thumbs is bad shared weight. And there's
plenty of times when thumbs still meant no shared weight, so adding thumbs
hardly guarantees avoiding thus issue.
The worst that happens with thumbs is my wrist is torqued. Sadly, this is a
frequent occurrence for me, at least around many dances in the Northeast. I
usually get torqued on average once a night, and I dance defensively.
I have never been injured without thumbs. I have with thumbs.
That is the factual, empirical part of what I have to say.
The opinion part:
I believe that if thumbs is required for a good connection, then a dancer
could consider whether they've learned how to properly share weight without
thumbs.
Dance safe,
Ron Blechner
Contradances.tumblr.com
On Feb 17, 2014 6:44 PM, "joda_rogers" <joda_rogers(a)altrionet.com> wrote:
OK, I don't usually enter these discussions
because, although I find
reading the posts interesting, by the time I see them, every possible
opinion has already been expressed, with approximately equal vehemence on
all sides, and as a result I don't usually feel that I have much to add.
However, in this case I'll chime in that I agree with Eric, that the
interlocking thumbs is rather nice, at least for those who can tolerate it.
For one thing, it is how I learned to dance, and it feels more "right"
that way. For another, it provides (in my opinion) a more firm connection
between the dancers. (Here, Larry Jennings' description - in Zesty Contras
- of what he called a "zesty" dancing style comes to mind.) But, as I
point out in my beginners' sessions, some people - I am married to one -
prefer not to have their thumbs involved, so they will come to you "without
a thumb showing"... so, take what they give you and work with it. No big
deal.
Someone pointed out that the interlocking thumb grip doesn't fit their
style of dancing, because (I gather) they do a lot of spinning, or
something. That's fine, don't use the interlocking grip. In fact, please
don't. No big deal. My main point is that personally, I would find it a
loss if the interlocking grip went away entirely. I enjoy using it with
others who know how to use it.
On Feb 17, 2014, at 9:00 AM, callers-request(a)sharedweight.net wrote:
Send Callers mailing list submissions to
callers(a)sharedweight.net
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
callers-request(a)sharedweight.net
You can reach the person managing the list at
callers-owner(a)sharedweight.net
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Callers digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Dances with three or more allemandes (Michael Fuerst)
2. Re: Dances with three or more allemandes (Michael Dyck)
3. Re: allemandes (Russell Frank)
4. Re: Dances with three or more allemandes (Jerome Grisanti)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 09:43:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Fuerst <mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] Dances with three or more allemandes
Message-ID:
<1392572591.59857.YahooMailNeo(a)web140705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Thanks you Joy and Les for the suggested dances. ? ?
Does anyone have additional suggestions?
I think what I had in mind are dances where everyone allemandes 1 1/2 at
least
once plus allemande 3/4 or more at least one additional time
?
Michael Fuerst ? ? ?802 N Broadway ? ? ?Urbana IL 61801??????
217-239-5844
On Sunday, February 16, 2014 10:25 AM, Aahz Maruch <aahz(a)pobox.com>
wrote:
On Sun, Feb 16, 2014, Erik Hoffman wrote:
http://rule6.info/
On 2/15/2014 10:32 PM, Aahz Maruch wrote:
Oddly enough, as has been pointed out here, you are a somewhat large-ish
man -- that means your personal safety requirements are not necessarily
what's appropriate for the general dancer population.
So yeah, it's pretty much all about safety from my POV.? Any kind of
spinning move out of allemande or wave risks yanking the thumb.? And
actually, my concern is more about waves than allemandes: the grip is
mostly the same for both and the spinning half-sashy is pretty much
standard these days.
I have no idea what you mean by "guideposts", though; from my POV either
the thumbs are interlocked or they're not.? (If each person's thumb can
touch the other person's webbing between thumb and forefinger they're
interlocked.)
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? On Sat, Feb 15, 2014, Michael Fuerst wrote:
>
> I should have said thumbs an wrapped around the other's hand.
> Interlocked was the wrong.
<whew> I do know people who believe that interlocked thumbs are
correct, and I've been on a campaign to discourage the practice. ;-)
So, Aahz, why do you want to eliminate it? I'm talking about the
thumbs up as guideposts, fingers hooked around the others hand, a
hook, not a grip, wrists straight, fingers curved. Is it just the
safety issue? I play music. I teach music. I worry a lot about my
hands! I have things I do to protect myself, and I don't let people
grab and grip, or bend my wrist in some painful way. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? <*>? ? ? ? ?
<*>? ? ? ? ? <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 10:46:27 -0800
From: Michael Dyck <jmdyck(a)ibiblio.org>
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] Dances with three or more allemandes
Message-ID: <53010783.1040809(a)ibiblio.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 14-02-15 10:18 AM, Michael Fuerst wrote:
>
> So I am asking for dances which have at least three, and preferably
four
allemandes
Searching my personal collection, I find:
6 allemandes:
"Al's Half a Heyday" [Al Olson] (but 2 are only 1/2)
5 allemandes:
"Jeffro's Tree" [Don Flaherty]
"Chuck the Budgie" [Rick Mohr]
"Remember the Alamo" [Gene Hubert] (but 4 are only 1/2)
4 allemandes:
"Two Whos in the Middle" [Al Olson]
"Chichester House Reel" [Steve Zakon]
"Dr Brown's Prescription" [David Kirchner]
4 allemandes, one of which is only 1/2:
"Coal Country Contra" [Ron Buchanan]
"Eric on Mondays" [David Kaynor]
"Al's Answer" [Al Olson -> David Kaynor]
"Hey in the Middle" [Tom Hinds]
"Thinking of John" [Erik Hoffman]
"Hull's Surprise" [Tom Hinds]
4 allemandes, two of which are only 1/2:
"Batja's Breakdown" [Tom Hinds]
"Ben's Spinoff #3" [Gene Hubert]
"Ben's Spinoff #2" [Gene Hubert]
"Southern Swing" [Steve Zakon]
"Fuller Park Fantasy" [Paul Balliet]
"Sunday on the Green" [Jim Kitch] (circle mixer)
-Michael
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 11:40:45 -0800
From: Russell Frank <russell.knarf(a)gmail.com>
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] allemandes
Message-ID:
<CABSg-QF9RQavoNX5h_yaQCb12pwX3YeKRri=
w26NsmEWk-TvHQ(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Allemandes are my most frequent subject for rants, so I'll weigh in here
(briefly) as a very experienced dancer/ inexperienced caller. As a
dancer,
the thing I have found most helpful personally is
to make sure to keep my
hand well away from my chest and at least somewhat to the side. This
allows
me free movement and gives me room to adjust to
whatever the other person
may be doing. If I want to give more or less weight, I can use my bicep,
without straining wrist and fingers. (I also need to take larger steps or
walk faster to get around.) I'm not sure anything an ordinary caller says
can help much at this point, but pointing out that the arm should be
extended seems non-controversial and might help.
At least in theory, I'm in favor of using thumbs as guideposts, because
they almost guarantee a good hand alignment (in my opinion), which is
hard
to achieve otherwise. Disengaging the thumbs is
an option, but it often
doesn't happen in the heat of dancing. In practice, I understand the need
to dance defensively, but the avoidance of thumbs has created some awful
habits.
Russell Frank
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 20:09:41 -0600
From: Jerome Grisanti <jerome.grisanti(a)gmail.com>
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] Dances with three or more allemandes
Message-ID:
<
CAD6SnUS+KoxRp5v3f_K8O805GZDbskLmcz79_f_JRAjfU3bxBQ(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Aahz wrote to Erik:
in
I have no idea what you mean by "guideposts", though; from my POV either
the thumbs are interlocked or they're not. (If each person's thumb can
touch the other person's webbing between thumb and forefinger they're
interlocked.)
I believe most dancers can make a distinction between holding your hand a position (e.g. with interlocking thumbs), and
gripping based on that
same
position. How can we best communicate that
difference?
I ask people to feel the connection through their entire arm, and their
entire body, and I avoid the term "grip" as well. Also, I find that when
the music is faster than people are comfortable with, they tend to grip
more -- so before asking the dancers to change I might first start with
the
band or other factors.
I also remind dancers that they will eventually let go of the hand
connection they've made, and to make sure they allow other dancers to
leave
them comfortably.
Also, Lindsay spoke of saying "ouch," adjusting the offending hand, and
saying "sorry, carpal tunnel." This has the benefit of making it about
him
-- "this is what works for me" --
moreso than making it about the other
person -- "you're doing it wrong." Hard to do in a short time without
practice, but worth practicing that attitude as a dancer so you can
communicate quickly and effectively. (Upon re-reading, this does appear
to
support scripting comments for common
quandaries).
--Jerome
--
Jerome Grisanti
660-528-0858
http://www.jeromegrisanti.com
"We should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least
once."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
End of Callers Digest, Vol 114, Issue 33
****************************************
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
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6:37 p.m.
New subject: Allemandes
On Mon, Feb 17, 2014, Ron Blechner wrote:
The worst that happens with thumbs is my wrist is torqued. Sadly, this
is a frequent occurrence for me, at least around many dances in the
Northeast. I usually get torqued on average once a night, and I dance
defensively.
The worst that I've heard of with thumbs is a jammed thumb. I haven't
heard of anyone needing medical care, but I've heard of people getting
injured thumbs.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
3719
days inactive
3720
days old
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
2 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
-
Aahz Maruch -
joda_rogers -
Ron Blechner