I imagine that the conversation must be much more complex in MWSD given the tradition of patter. As I understand it, oftentimes the decision of which term to label each role is determined by what might best rhyme with the following call, or by how many syllables you have time to say. While it's probably a much more ambitious endeavor -- and one which I'm sure as a contra dance caller I have very little grasp of -- I would say that many MWSD communities are ready to handle a role-term change, but that it would take exceedingly creative and experienced callers within that tradition to help determine what those might look like. Good luck! Angela On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 7:19 PM, Jeremy Child via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote:

Thanks Rich. Agreed, in the MSWD Community the terms are generally not a problem, but in the same way that in the contra dance community they weren't a problem 20 years ago. What is a problem is that whilst women can dance the boys role, for men to dance the girls role is frowned upon unless the alternative is not enough for a square. I like dancing the girls role as well as the boys, but rarely get to do so. I say it's a problem - but only I seem to see it as one. Everyone else is too busy tutting at me for donning a pink sash and dancing lady. Rather reminiscent of what Contra was like not so many years ago. In the UK we rarely see role-swapping in MWSD. Men hardly ever dance as girls, and women who dance as boys usually do so exclusively. There is little true swapping, whereby a person might dance girl one time and boy the next. It IS generational, but also one of the reasons MWSD is struggling to survive. Change must come if MWSD is to continue, and if we leave it too late, then, well, it will be too late. There will be no community left to carry on the dancing. For all the reasons mentioned, change will be hard, so we need to start sooner rather than later. I also believe the gender norms contribute to the current inability of most MWSD dancer to do moves from anything other than normal positions - something Callerlab *is* concerned about. Perhaps I should lobby Callerlab! Jeremy www.genderfreedance.net On 27 September 2016 at 15:44, Rich Sbardella &lt;richsbardella(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

Thanks Donna. How do the dancers know who's dancing boy and who girl? Sometimes they need to, or do the callers avoid any calls requiring this knowledge (e.g. boys trade from a wave)? Jeremy On 28 September 2016 at 01:58, Donna Hunt &lt;dhuntdancer(a)aol.com&gt; wrote:

When there's a role specific move called ie, "Boys trade from a wave" the dancers in that role say "Boy" (or "Girl" if it's "girl" specific). The dancers only say it loud enough for their set to hear, the dancers don't yell it loud enough for the callers to hear. The callers usually make a note of who the couples are prior to starting the tip so they have a record of who is in which position. If they are teaching and need clarification they will ask the "boys" or "girls" to identify with a raised hand. Our dancers don't try to identify who they are supposed to be dancing with, they dance to the definition of the call and dance with whomever is coming at them. Sometimes during class this becomes very interesting especially if someone boldly moves in the wrong direction and does a move with the wrong person. Occasionally dancers become confused and can be heard muttering, "Oh, yeah I'm supposed to be a (insert role here)." Our group has dancers and classes from Mainstream up to C2. Check it out: http://www.independencesquares.org/ Donna Hunt -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Child &lt;jeremy.m.child(a)gmail.com&gt; To: Donna Hunt &lt;dhuntdancer(a)aol.com&gt; Cc: callers &lt;Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; Sent: Wed, Sep 28, 2016 2:35 am Subject: Re: [Callers] Boys and Girls Thanks Donna. How do the dancers know who's dancing boy and who girl? Sometimes they need to, or do the callers avoid any calls requiring this knowledge (e.g. boys trade from a wave)? Jeremy On 28 September 2016 at 01:58, Donna Hunt &lt;dhuntdancer(a)aol.com&gt; wrote: Here in Philadelphia the MSW group (Independence Squares) is an LGBT and straight group and we dance to the calls of girl/boy and are free to dance whichever role we wish without any identifying "sashes". Our callers are fantastic at remembering who the couples/boys/girls are during any square. Donna Hunt -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Child via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; To: Callers &lt;Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; Sent: Tue, Sep 27, 2016 2:47 pm Subject: [Callers] Boys and Girls Hi This is for the MWSD callers amongst you. There has been much discussion on this group about the terms used for the two roles in contra dance. I do not propose to resurrect that here, I mention it to emphasise that many feel the terms used to be important, and that we should be moving away from any gender connotation in them. MWSD uses Ladies, Gents, Men, Women, Girls, Boys - all highly gendered. Is it time we changed these? If so, how? In theory with Callerlab it will be easier, but I suspect they would strongly resist such a change, since the "maleness" and "femaleness" of the roles (e.g. skirt work) is such a fundamental part of what MWSD is. Thoughts? (Apologies to those to whom this is all gibberish) Jeremy Child www.barndancecaller.net www.genderfreedance.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Nick: Some good stuff in those links - thank you. Donna: I love the idea of identifying your role by saying "boy" or "girl". Thanks for the link to your web pages. I did try to look at your FB group but got a "this content isn't available right now" error message. Neal: I'm intrigued by the "not wearing bands/physical identifiers", and more so by mid-tip role swapping. How does the caller cope? If xe is purely using modules then there's no problem, but how does xe cope if xe is sight calling? OK xe could memorise 4 positions rather than just two couples, but if the dancers are role swapping xe may not be able to tell what FASR the square is in. In my MWSD classes I insist that the "boys" wear a sash and the "girls" don't - irrespective of actual gender. This is partly to make it easier to see when the square has gone asymmetric, and partly to eliminate the idea that "boy is the natural role of a man, so if a woman dances it she must be marked out in some way (and vice versa)". Jeremy On 28 September 2016 at 18:54, Neal Schlein via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: