13 Mar
2024
13 Mar
'24
11:53 p.m.
I'm sorry, everyone- I've sent too many emails and made a few mistakes
along the way, causing un-needed confusion!
I think our swing is different than what others have described so far,
because one side is like the photo on Jeff's website, and as
well-demonstrated in John's video
https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198 (starting at 3:18).
But the other side is the "pointy hands".
In other words- get the couple into the most conventional, classic
ballroom swing position.
The Robin's right hand in the Lark's left hand does not change.
But take the robin's left hand and cup it around the back of the lark's
closest arm, just above the elbow
And take the lark's right hand and cup it around the back of the robin's
closest arm, just above the elbow
Does that make sense?
I'll reference the photo I took just now in case you missed it in a
previous message:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin…
Regarding what Winston wrote-
yes- Winston, you are right! - the swing shown very clearly in the
video you linked to, is how we were doing swings before.
But maybe we were teaching it slightly wrong! oops :)
We were trying to keep things as symmetrical and simple as possible for
our beginners.
So what we would say was:
- "Larks left hand in Robin's right hand"
"Other hand on the shoulder blade of your partner...."
But then we were telling people "whoever is taller, their arm will go
above" or "just figure out the order of the arms, one way will feel more
comfortable" - but-- I think you're trying to tell me that there's
something about the orientation of the two dancers relative to each
other, that makes it more natural for the Robin's arm to always be
above? Regardless of relative height differences?
If so, thank you for helping me realize this!
So - does the same then follow for holding on the back of the elbow
instead of the shoulder blade?
Will it always be more natural for the Robin's hand to be above,
regardless of height difference between the two dancers?
Also- will dancers naturally figure this out because one is a lot more
comfortable?
Is it important to specify to newbies that the Robin's arm goes above,
or if I just say "cup your hand behind your partner's elbow", will they
figure this out because it just feels right?
Kat
From Winston:
"Katherine --
I think that the way you were doing the ballroom swing before you modified it is not how
most of the rest of us do it, and that this in itself produces some of the problems your
modification solves.
I'm sure under the impression that the 'standard' ballroom swing [*] has the
robin's arm on top
Here's a video (from the East Coast) whcih sure looks to me (from the West Coast) like
how we do it out here.
https://youtu.be/lQ0R5iHT-l8?si=OYKTgBXg0dLyKQza
(Of course there has to be some adjustment for height difference, and you don't want a
tall person having to bend way forward and then support a short person or a short person
getting their shoulders stretched by reaching way up; your modification (robin's hand
goes on upper arm rather than shoulder blade) is sometimes the best solution for height
differences even when the default hold is 'standard' as shown in the video.
Please try the 'standard' hold with your husband and see if it's any better
for you that what you were using.. And then we can at least all be talking about the same
thing."
Jeff Kaufman <mailto:jeff.t.kaufman@gmail.com>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 8:32 PM
I think my third photo isn't quite picturing the swing Kat is
referring to -- while the arms close to the camera are as described,
in my picture the arms away from the camera are in standard contra
position swing position with the Lark's hand behind the Robin's back
and the Robin's hand behind the Lark's shoulder. The same as in the
first picture on the page.
If, instead, you imagine the arms farther from the camera were also in
the position that the closer-to-the-camera arms are in, I think that
gets you the swing Kat describes? Symmetrical, supported, and a bit
less close than the standard swing.
Jeff
Alexandra Deis-Lauby <mailto:adeislauby@gmail.com>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 8:13 PM
Unsupported swings are the worst!
Shoulder blades with nice rounded frame provide support and distance.
Kat- can you clarify when you say the swing is like in Jeff’s third
picture, does that mean the other arms are on shoulder blades like in
the photo? Or are the other arms “point”?
Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 6:05 PM
oh! wonderful!!
Here is the modified-hold swing I've been talking about, on Jeff K's
page - third photo down!!
labelled under the photo as /arm-hold ballroom swing/
https://www.jefftk.com/p/contra-avoiding-sore-arms
Thanks Jeff!!
/
/Now I'm going to comment to two things again - Julian's comment and
Jeff's comment (both included below).
Julian's question: "why [does] a ballroom hold feels more "intimate"
than other holds?"
For me personally, what I find more "intimate" about the ballroom hold
(and a lot of the other holds), is that it puts me very close to the
other person - closer than in any other figure - and also more "locked
in" - since both hands of both people are involved in maintaining the
hold.
And what I noticed in my own body, when in recent dances I've been
doing the elbow-hold ballroom position with most neighbours and a new
man suddenly grabs my waist and pulls me into conventional ballroom
hold - is that I don't really like his hand there on my back. I feel
a bit trapped - like if I wanted to back away a little, I can't.
(I acknowledge I am speaking in gendered terms here, but I feel it is
relevant because for me, this feeling of being excessively close to
someone only seems to come up when I'm dancing with some men. I've
never to my recollection had a woman pull me "too close for comfort").
I'll be curious to hear how others answer this question.
Regarding hand placement- I definitely agree with Jeff's page about
the importance of symmetry - prior to our elbow-hold swing, we always
taught the ballroom swing where both parties put their hands on the
other person's shoulder blade- with the shorter person's arm going
under the taller person's arm. I like the symmetry of it and fully
agree that both parties should be responsible for supporting the other.
And Jeff wrote:
"In general, I would be excited to see common positioning move ... to
where both people are using both of their arms to hold the couple
together, sharing the weight more evenly"
And that's one reason I love this elbow-hold (or "arm-hold" as Jeff
calls it) - I've found this hold gives me an even better connection to
my dancing patner than the shoulder-blade hold.
It doesn't feel easy to cup one's hand in an effective way around
someone else's back - and I agree it asks a lot of the wrist.
I find it much easier to cup my hand around the back of someone's
elbow - it is perfectly hand-sized :) .
Kat K
-----
Julian wrote:
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold
feels more "intimate" than other holds?
Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our
minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?
Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer,
crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own
intimacy to me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit
more space - though I wouldn't say the default)
Is it something else?
Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to
an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?
In dance,
Julian Blechner
He/him
Western Mass
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