JoLaine said, "When I dance lead, if I encounter a woman who leans back on
me, I simply walk the swing so there is no centrifugal force generated."
Yes, self-defense mechanisms are great. Mine is to move my right hand from
the lady's shoulder-blade to her waist so that I am not supporting her.
And, as you say, one way or another, slow the swing down. It isn't worth
getting hurt for.
JoLaine said, " You are using the hand behind the other person's shoulder to
gently PULL IN".
Sorry, I would disagree there. I have experienced a lot of ladies who have
been told that, and as a result they put their hand on your back and press
hard. I always tell people to just PLACE the hand there. As the swing
speeds up you will automatically resist the centrifugal force, but only with
just enough pressure to counter it. Too many people start pressing when
there is no need and it can be quite uncomfortable. You never actually need
to pull in.
Of course that only applies if the lady places her hand on the man's back.
I never teach that. I always tell ladies to rest their arm gently on the
man's upper arm.
And here, from a previous discussion with Andrea (we agree to disagree on
this one :-) ) is why:
= = = = = = = = =
Yes, I love swings that are 100% symmetrical. I do lots of Galway Swings,
Northumberland Swings, Ceilidh Swing, Sweetheart Swing, etc. where you are
both absolutely symmetrical.
But the normal buzz-step swing is not QUITE symmetrical. The man's right
arm usually goes under the lady's left arm. And that is what makes all the
difference.
Yes, I know some very well-respected American callers who teach a swing
with the lady's left hand on the back of the man's shoulder blade.
I believe that there are many challenges associated with this:
1) The man, who, on average, has longer arms, reaches under the lady's arm
to very easily reach her shoulder-blade. The lady, with her (on average)
shorter arms and probably starting from lower down, has to reach OVER the
man's arm to get to his shoulder-blade. Yes, some ladies can reach. But in
my experience many ladies cannot easily reach and still be comfortable.
2) If they can just reach, many ladies then, instead of just placing their
hand on the man's shoulder-blade (so that when centrifugal force increases
they can resist it) they actually press into the man's shoulder-blade. I am
not sure if this is just bad technique, but I suspect it may be partially to
do with the fact that they can only just reach so they press so that their
hand doesn't slip. It can be quite uncomfortable for the man.
3) Even if the lady's arm is the same length as the man, and she is the same
height, she still has to reach over his arm, so it automatically pulls you
closer together than you need to be, and even closer if her arm is shorter.
While there are fun swing variations where we get really, really close, in a
standard buzz-step swing I don't believe that being forced closer together
is desirable.
4) It is not necessary if the man's hand is well placed. As you say each
supports their own weight, so all the connection is doing is resisting
centrifugal force and, in nearly 50 years of swinging, I have never found
that a problem.
5) It is quite common for the lady to twirl under the man's arm at the end
of a swing. If the lady twirls counter-clockwise that is not a problem. But
if she twirls clockwise then she will break her arm. Probably not a problem
is the lady is completely in control of the twirl - she just prepares for it
by moving her arm, but if the man takes some part in initiating the twirl
(which I believe is very common) then if he tries to twirl her and she
reacts slowly then either the twirl fails or she gets hurt. Of course if
the lady's left hand is just resting on the man's upper arm she can twirl
either way without a problem. The hand just slides off easily.
6) In complex flourishes, such as a Texas Tommy/Apache Whip exit from a
swing, then you really do need some lead and follow, and it is nearly always
the man leading the lady. A move like that is impossible if the lady's left
hand is on the man's back. Believe me I have tried it!
I hope that helps you understand why I always teach the lady to leave her
relaxed left arm resting on the man's upper arm. :-)
= = = = = = = = =
I know we will never get agreement on this, but at least please tell people
to just PLACE the hand - no inward pressure is required, just the resistance
to outward pressure. :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
One way is to start with a Lucky 7 Circle Mixer:
A1: Circle Left x 2
A2: Into the Middle and Back x 2
B1: Grand Chain (Start Right Hand with Partner (#1). Men CC, Ladies C -
don't turn!)
B2: Swing #7
Sorry, in America I guess you would say Grand Right & Left rather than Grand
Chain.
That gets them weaving, then you just need to handle the end effects when
you have a line rather than a circle.
I usually use Flirtation Reel next since it sets up a nice symmetrical
position where everyone starts right shoulder at the same time. And I dance
it the first time using hands to pull by. The hands helps them to turn the
easy way at the end of the line. You just need to tell them to make a loop
as they turn at the end of the line to take up some time, and NOT to offer a
hand - wait to see which hand you are being offered by the person coming out
of the hey - they know which one it is!
Once you drop the hands, remind them to look at the person they pass and
they will turn the easy way at the end of the line.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
During a workshop at the DownEast Festival which discussed effective use of words, I discovered that I came up with a teaching technique for the hey that I could use if I REALLY wanted to teach the hey to a room full of newbies (which is, like, never BTW).
Use hands.
For instance:
"Women turn by the right halfway. Now turn your partners by the left halfway.
Now the men turn by the right halfway, and turn your neighbor halfway...."
"Now do it again, but leave out the hands (but take them if it helps).
___ two WOmen BY the RIGHT then PARTner by the LEFT
TWO MEN BY the RIGHT, NEIGHbor ___ by the LEFT
etc.
I have never used this in an actual dance, but I think it would work.
Dan
Great stuff, Greg!
I learned many important things from some of the great callers early in my
career. Larry Edelman taught me to teach about "places, not faces" while
teaching squares. This can also apply to contras. Ted Sanella taught me to
first tell who we were to look for, then what we were to do with them. These two
tips have proven very helpful when working with all dancers.
John B. Freeman, SFTPOCTJ
In recent weeks, I have begun to notice that some posts lack the usual
supportive comments and suggestions that I have come to enjoy on this
list. Instead, there seems to be more than a hint of "I'm right, you
must be wrong" or "how could you possibly think that......?", and
other negative postings. I include here comments concerning our
approaches/teaching as callers, but also about dancers and dance
communities.
More recently, folks have been suggesting that positive phrases will
work better to encourage dancers and make them feel great about
dancing. It would seem logical that we would practice this behavior
with each other! We all have different dance communities and ways that
we have learned to call and teach and dance. I would hope that we
would offer our own experiences as suggestions, or ways that have been
successful in our own dance communities, and avoid denigrating the
experiences or ideas of others.
My thanks to the many on the list who are very aware of the impact of
their posts, and continue to share in such positive ways.
I would so much appreciate again looking forward to all of the emails
generated from this list.
Respectfully,
Linda
Martha said, "I agree fully with Erik Hoffman. I can't fathom the no thumb
allemande. How the heck do you get any connection with it? Two flat surfaces
and only friction - you might as well just walk around the other person,
it's worse than a noodle arm. The way most people do get connection is to
bend the wrist to provide some contact for shared weight - and that hurts my
wrist horribly. So if someone gives me a no thumb allemande, I comply,
desperately trying not to have my wrist bent, and if it is someone who
doesn't bend the wrist, then there is no connection, no "shared weight" and
no chance if it's a 1 1/2 allemande to get around in time. Erik has always
taught the allemande hold as being a "hook", with the curled fingers
providing the connection, and I have stolen that description from him and
use it myself. The thumb is along for the ride but should not do any
squeezing or gripping, in fact, it can even lie flat next to the curled
fingers and not intersect the other thumb, as he
mentions in describing the star hold. Connection without thumb pain."
Maybe there is some confusion about what people mean by a "no thumb
allemande".
What I mean by a "no thumb allemande" is exactly what you describe: "the
allemande hold is a "hook", with the curled fingers providing the
connection. The thumb is along for the ride but should not do any squeezing
or gripping, and should lie flat next to the curled fingers and not
intersect the other thumb."
So, for me, the "no thumb allemande" is a good allemande grip but with the
thumbs NOT interlocked.
I occasionally meet people in the lines who offer me a flat hand with their
fingers straight (sometimes even splayed!) for an allemande. Very
uncomfortable and useless for zesty dancing.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
I have to speak up regarding telling people to lean back into a swing. I
don't think a top is a good analogy as a top is one solid item, not two
people trying to hold onto each other.
No one needs to lean back because centrifugal force is already pushing you
back! If anything, you are using the hand behind the other person's
shoulder to gently PULL IN just enough to counter the centrifugal force
that is pushing you out. That way each person supports his/her own weight.
There are too many women who throw their entire weight onto the man's arm.
I can't help but believe they heard some caller tell them to "lean back!"
The most serious injury I've had contra dancing had nothing to do with
dipping or twirling, but with women who throw their entire weight onto my
arm. When I dance lead, if I encounter a woman who leans back on me, I
simply walk the swing so there is no centrifugal force generated.
--
JoLaine Jones-Pokorney
"We are as gods and might as well get good at it!"
- Stewart Brand
Jean said, " Must disagree about leaning backwards (resisting each other,
leaning away within reason) and swing/allemande speed. The physical shapes
that spin best are cones (children's tops), small at the bottom, wider at
the top. Couple turns and pivots (in other social dance forms like waltz),
have the gent stepping almost between the woman's legs and have the woman
resisting the guy by dancing further back into his right hand than
usual...this sets up the 'wider at the top, narrow at the bottom" shape
conducive to faster smoother spins. Again, I said "within reason"....no
leaning away from the waist (the optimal form is a V not a Y). The inherent
joy of a good "V" with strong resistance (weight-giving)?is what makes the
buzz step swing so much more fun than the 'walk around' swing of modern
squares."
Well, if you stand a cone up without it spinning it will fall over; I don't
usually fall over when I stop spinning, so I guess the two systems aren't
really comparable :-)
Yes, you may end up with a slight V, but that happens because centrifugal
force is pulling you apart. The swing should be a gentle counter-balance.
Keep your own balance, relax, and move your feet faster to make the swing
faster.
Leaning is unnecessary, uncomfortable for your partner, and
counter-productive.
I teach waltz as well and would never dream of suggesting that the lady
should resist or push into his right hand. She is supposed to be following.
Why on earth would she resist him? The V will occur naturally through
centrifugal force as you speed up. Resisting/leaning just makes your
partner have to waste energy to stop you falling over.
Giving weight is also a greatly misunderstood term. It is nothing to do
with leaning. It is about controlling your centre of gravity and putting it
in the optimal position for whatever you are doing.
There is also the physics to consider. Getting further apart increases your
moment of inertia, and thus, for the same energy you have a lower angular
velocity. The closer you are together the faster you can spin. That is why
you interlock your feet in a waltz spin turn - you get close together and
reduce your moment of inertia.
I swing very fast with a good partner. Read more about my description of
how to achieve it at:
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/Contra.html#swinging
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
I agree fully with Erik Hoffman. I can't fathom the no thumb allemande. How the heck do you get any connection with it? Two flat surfaces and only friction - you might as well just walk around the other person, it's worse than a noodle arm. The way most people do get connection is to bend the wrist to provide some contact for shared weight - and that hurts my wrist horribly. So if someone gives me a no thumb allemande, I comply, desperately trying not to have my wrist bent, and if it is someone who doesn't bend the wrist, then there is no connection, no "shared weight" and no chance if it's a 1 1/2 allemande to get around in time. Erik has always taught the allemande hold as being a "hook", with the curled fingers providing the connection, and I have stolen that description from him and use it myself. The thumb is along for the ride but should not do any squeezing or gripping, in fact, it can even lie flat next to the curled fingers and not intersect the other thumb, as he mentions in describing the star hold. Connection without thumb pain. Thanks, Erik.
Martha
On Jul 1, 2013, at 9:00 AM, callers-request(a)sharedweight.net wrote:
> Send Callers mailing list submissions to
> callers(a)sharedweight.net
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> callers-request(a)sharedweight.net
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> callers-owner(a)sharedweight.net
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Callers digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: First-time Contra Dancers and similar figures (Read Weaver)
> 2. Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance (Greg McKenzie)
> 3. Re: Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance (JohnFreem(a)aol.com)
> 4. Re: Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance (barb kirchner)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 20:48:26 -0400
> From: Read Weaver <rweaver(a)igc.org>
> To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Callers] First-time Contra Dancers and similar figures
> Message-ID: <9D058E28-3D5B-46C1-ABA3-F5EE755519E7(a)igc.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Yeah, I don't understand the problem with no thumbs--I go out of my way to teach the no-thumb hold to beginners, mostly to avoid twisted thumbs from the person who doesn't let go in time. Is there some thought that it leads to the bent-wrist hold?
>
> On Jun 26, 2013, at 9:37 PM, Jacob Bloom wrote:
>
>> As for the no-thumb allemande: Years ago, I started having a problem with
>> my left thumb aching for days after a dance, from the allemande lefts.
>> This started almost 30 years ago, so I can't blame that problem on
>> advancing age. As far as I'm concerned, doing an allemande without locking
>> thumbs is an improvement which has been made necessary by the modern
>> tendency to do an allemande all the way around in four beats instead of six
>> or eight. I'm always delighted when I run into another dancer who gives me
>> a no-thumb allemande. Anything that prevents injury is a good thing.
>>
>> Jacob Bloom
>> jandnbloom(a)gmail.com
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 12:00 PM, <callers-request(a)sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 00:03:40 -0700
>>> From: Erik Hoffman <erik(a)erikhoffman.com>
>>> To: jean francis <catherineaura(a)yahoo.com>, Caller's discussion list
>>> <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
>>> Subject:
>>>
>>> Re: [Callers] First-time Contra Dancers and similar figures
>>>
>>> [1] An aside: many people call this the "wrist grip" form. I encourage
>>> us all to remove the word "grip" from out teaching lexicon, as gripping
>>> has led to griping, and that (IMHO) horrid no-thumb allemande... The
>>> connection is through hooks and surfaces to lean on, not through
>>> gripping. And, although I don't like the no thumb allemande, when do I
>>> teach this form of star, I encourage all five fingers, thumb included,
>>> going over the top of the wrist in front - no grip.
>>>
>>> erik hoffman
>>> ~oakland, ca
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 07:55:18 -0700
> From: Greg McKenzie <grekenzie(a)gmail.com>
> To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance
> Message-ID:
> <CAFqkWLt0qEFdYC4FFthx-K+8wi6yAGE=3-cKEGpBdOee5k5pWg(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> I just listened to "RadioLab" on NPR
>
> http://www.radiolab.org/
>
> The current show on "Inner Voices" is fascinating and has information about
> how the expectations of teachers (or callers) can affect performance. The
> impacts of simple word changes in how a task is described can make a
> dramatic difference in how people perform that task. The show talks about
> research on test performance as well as a study involving the performance
> of psychomotor skills (golf).
>
> This research dramatizes how small word choices and attitudes (or framings)
> by callers could change the competence of many people in the room enough to
> make the caller's job much easier or more difficult. Check it out.
>
> The segment about the specific research begins at about 11 minutes and 15
> seconds in. But the entire show is good.
>
> Makes me think about every time I have said: "Now this part of the dance is
> a little tricky."
>
> - Greg McKenzie
> West Coast, USA
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 11:09:28 -0400 (EDT)
> From: JohnFreem(a)aol.com
> To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance
> Message-ID: <99c29.775e271b.3f02f5a8(a)aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Great stuff, Greg!
>
> I learned many important things from some of the great callers early in my
> career. Larry Edelman taught me to teach about "places, not faces" while
> teaching squares. This can also apply to contras. Ted Sanella taught me to
> first tell who we were to look for, then what we were to do with them. These two
> tips have proven very helpful when working with all dancers.
>
> John B. Freeman, SFTPOCTJ
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 15:19:44 +0000
> From: barb kirchner <barbkirchner(a)hotmail.com>
> To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance
> Message-ID: <BLU177-W7967532EE4DEE44DCFFF1DE710(a)phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> THANKS for bringing up this important teaching technique.
>
> the way you phrase something can make ALL the difference.
>
> instead of "this is a little tricky", i go with "this LOOKS a little bit different, but you'll be surprised how easy it is!" or "here comes the fun part!"
>
> if you ACT like you KNOW they'll just be able to do it, well, that's what they'll do.
>
> barb
>
>
>
>> From: JohnFreem(a)aol.com
>> Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 11:09:28 -0400
>> To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance
>>
>> Great stuff, Greg!
>>
>> I learned many important things from some of the great callers early in my
>> career. Larry Edelman taught me to teach about "places, not faces" while
>> teaching squares. This can also apply to contras. Ted Sanella taught me to
>> first tell who we were to look for, then what we were to do with them. These two
>> tips have proven very helpful when working with all dancers.
>>
>> John B. Freeman, SFTPOCTJ
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
>> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>
>
> End of Callers Digest, Vol 107, Issue 1
> ***************************************
Laurie said, "Also, I have talked with many who have developed, as I have, a
shoulder/neck problem. This seems to come from inexperienced dancers or
assertive regular dancers (not terribly good dancers) when they FORCE a
turn, especially at an incorrect time.
"I'd love to hear from someone how to describe to a dancer who wants to
twirl what the correct timing is - can someone give me a good way to put
this out there?"
Hi Laurie,
Unless you are running a workshop that let's you go into more
detail, then the best way is probably to drip-feed hints and tips as you
teach the dances.
= = = = = = = = = =
Regarding timing, I emphasise that, while you can do what you want
in your own time and space, on beat #1 of the next phrase you and your
partner should be in the right place and facing the right way for the next
move.
So, when there is a change of direction, don't think of a move as
being 8 beats, think of it as being 6 beats plus 2 beats to transition to
the next move. This applies to, for example:
Down the hall & turn alone
Circle left/right
Star right/left
A simple flourish on the end of a swing such as an inside or outside turn
For the inexperienced: opening out from a swing into a line or circle
If the dancers are all doing the basic transitions well on beats 7 &
8 then just remind them occasionally that a twirl on the end of a swing has
to happen on beats 7 & 8 as well. Pick a dance where the transition into
the next move is demanding and remind them to finish their flourishes on
time.
Make sure the twirler knows that they are responsible for the
twirlee's timing and positioning as well as their own, and that they should
plan ahead.
= = = = = = = = = =
Regarding force, these are some of the points I make:
(Note: although contra dancing is not about lead and follow, a flourish such
as a twirl out of a swing often is - so I use the terms leader and follower
purely as indicators of who is leading and following in a flourish.)
Rule #1: Everyone is entitled to get on the dance floor and have fun without
getting hurt.
"Dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire", so RELAX!
A strong lead is about clarity, not strength.
(As an example, I often put my hand in an allemande position and get someone
to blow on it - as their breath hits my hand I do a complete spin. People
who want to spin don't usually need any force from their partner - they are
quite capable of spinning themselves! A strong platform can be useful to
push off, but if you try to push someone into a spin you are more likely to
push them off balance then to help them.)
When you are following, remember (as one excellent teacher used to say) "It
ain't my job to drag your ass across the floor!", so, when someone leads you
into a twirl or any other flourish, send the message straight from your
fingers to your toes and follow the lead - don't fight back!
Always start with ZERO tension and build up to what you need to execute the
move.
You aren't fighting each other - you are only fighting centrifugal force.
Unlike arm-wrestling, if your hand moves nearer to your body in an
allemande, YOU LOSE!
It's dancing not wrestling!
You are responsible for your own balance.
Leaning backwards in swings or allemandes doesn't make you go faster it just
makes your partner have to waste their energy holding you up.
= = = = = = = = = =
Of course, the people you most want to listen to these tips are
probably the ones who aren't listening!
If I seem a little passionate about this subject please forgive me,
but I have had two shoulder operations as a result of dancing, and am hoping
not to need another one.
Hope that helps! :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
