23 Feb
2014
23 Feb
'14
3:45 p.m.
Callers list members,
First, let me apologize. Due to my health problems and the recent
arrival of my infant son, I have not been able to give this list the
attention it deserves. I have not been on top of moderation requests and
have not kept up with conversations. The most I've been able to do, most
of the time, is read the subject lines.
Now, I was very concerned when the tread titled "A Call For Civility"
hit my inbox and read it. Shortly after, I received Greg McKenzie's
unsubscription notification. I now have been able to read the
conversations leading up to that thread. I've been struggling with how
to respond to the callers list community about this, but I can't let
this go any longer, so I'm just going to have to go with my gut and stop
trying to puzzle it out with my head.
One of the things, actually it's the thing I love the most about the
contra dance community is it's inclusive and tolerant nature. When I
started dancing, I was socially awkward and bumbling. The community
welcomed me each week. I made friends. I got better at social
situations. I found a home. I found love there on the dance floor. I
have seen it over and over again at dances: socially marginal people
being welcomed, tolerated and accommodated in ways that they had never
experienced anywhere else. This is the ideal that makes our community
special. This is why I dedicate myself to creating this community
wherever I live, dance or call. It's why I started this list, so we
could learn how to make it better together.
That's why I've been so disappointed with how Greg was treated by this
community. We are supposed to be the leaders. We are supposed to be the
bearers of the ideals and show our dance communities how it's done. I've
never really understood the problems that people had with Greg. Yes, he
has strong opinions. Yes, he is socially awkward and doesn't always
communicate his intentions clearly. But I've always found him to be
straightforward with his opinions, positive in his criticism, creative
in his thinking and open to feedback. He and I butted heads many times
early in the list history and over on trad-dance-callers. I've learned a
lot in my discussions with him and reading his posts. I never took any
of his criticisms personally, because he criticized my ideas, not me. He
challenged my thinking on this list and I came out better for it. Not
because he convinced me, but because I thought through my ideas better
and understood why they were right. Although a lot of times, he
convinced me to change my ideas, too.
As part of his social awkwardness, sometimes he crossed the line in a
post. Every time, when people pointed it out to him, he apologized. Yes,
he crossed the line when he criticized the calling of people in an
easily identifiable video. But he apologized for it. Twice. And then was
repeatedly taken to task afterwards. Then talked about derisively in the
third person on-list. And he was right - other people added the
identifying names, not him. A valuable voice in this community was
driven out because his intentions were misunderstood. Several
disapproved of his "tone". I'm not sure how people can interpret
"tone"
in an e-mail. It's a medium fraught with opportunities for
misinterpretation. To think that you understand the "tone" that the
author was intending seems crazy to me. We have to give each other the
benefit of the doubt if we are going to continue to be a healthy and
supportive community.
Now, I'm very sad to hear that people have decided not to post because
of Greg. I understand how hard it is to have your ideas challenged and
criticized. But I don't think that I ever read a post of his that was
purposefully mean-spirited or an individual attack. If you have an
example of such and instance, then please forward it to me off-list.
Let's not start another public bash-fest. If you have solid, factual
criticisms of him, then I do want to hear them. It's just that what is
being said now isn't justified by my experience with him.
I encourage people to put their ideas forward. We're here to find the
best ideas here and make the dancer's experience the best it can be. To
become the best callers we can be, we need ideas to be shared,
discussed, challenged and debated so we can find the best ones. We also
need this to be a safe place for people to ask their questions and share
their ideas, so keep being the positive, supportive community I know you
can be.
We're better than this. We can have the free exchange of ideas with the
same acceptance and tolerance that we have on the dance floor. This is
what has made this list special for the last 9 1/2 years. Let's not
loose sight of what's important.
Chris Weiler
SharedWeight co-founder/moderator
Craftsbury, VT
23 Feb
23 Feb
4:02 p.m.
Well said, Chris.
-Don
On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Chris Weiler (Home) <
chris.weiler(a)weirdtable.org> wrote:
Callers list members,
First, let me apologize. Due to my health problems and the recent arrival
of my infant son, I have not been able to give this list the attention it
deserves. I have not been on top of moderation requests and have not kept
up with conversations. The most I've been able to do, most of the time, is
read the subject lines.
Now, I was very concerned when the tread titled "A Call For Civility" hit
my inbox and read it. Shortly after, I received Greg McKenzie's
unsubscription notification. I now have been able to read the conversations
leading up to that thread. I've been struggling with how to respond to the
callers list community about this, but I can't let this go any longer, so
I'm just going to have to go with my gut and stop trying to puzzle it out
with my head.
One of the things, actually it's the thing I love the most about the
contra dance community is it's inclusive and tolerant nature. When I
started dancing, I was socially awkward and bumbling. The community
welcomed me each week. I made friends. I got better at social situations. I
found a home. I found love there on the dance floor. I have seen it over
and over again at dances: socially marginal people being welcomed,
tolerated and accommodated in ways that they had never experienced anywhere
else. This is the ideal that makes our community special. This is why I
dedicate myself to creating this community wherever I live, dance or call.
It's why I started this list, so we could learn how to make it better
together.
That's why I've been so disappointed with how Greg was treated by this
community. We are supposed to be the leaders. We are supposed to be the
bearers of the ideals and show our dance communities how it's done. I've
never really understood the problems that people had with Greg. Yes, he has
strong opinions. Yes, he is socially awkward and doesn't always communicate
his intentions clearly. But I've always found him to be straightforward
with his opinions, positive in his criticism, creative in his thinking and
open to feedback. He and I butted heads many times early in the list
history and over on trad-dance-callers. I've learned a lot in my
discussions with him and reading his posts. I never took any of his
criticisms personally, because he criticized my ideas, not me. He
challenged my thinking on this list and I came out better for it. Not
because he convinced me, but because I thought through my ideas better and
understood why they were right. Although a lot of times, he convinced me to
change my ideas, too.
As part of his social awkwardness, sometimes he crossed the line in a
post. Every time, when people pointed it out to him, he apologized. Yes, he
crossed the line when he criticized the calling of people in an easily
identifiable video. But he apologized for it. Twice. And then was
repeatedly taken to task afterwards. Then talked about derisively in the
third person on-list. And he was right - other people added the identifying
names, not him. A valuable voice in this community was driven out because
his intentions were misunderstood. Several disapproved of his "tone". I'm
not sure how people can interpret "tone" in an e-mail. It's a medium
fraught with opportunities for misinterpretation. To think that you
understand the "tone" that the author was intending seems crazy to me. We
have to give each other the benefit of the doubt if we are going to
continue to be a healthy and supportive community.
Now, I'm very sad to hear that people have decided not to post because of
Greg. I understand how hard it is to have your ideas challenged and
criticized. But I don't think that I ever read a post of his that was
purposefully mean-spirited or an individual attack. If you have an example
of such and instance, then please forward it to me off-list. Let's not
start another public bash-fest. If you have solid, factual criticisms of
him, then I do want to hear them. It's just that what is being said now
isn't justified by my experience with him.
I encourage people to put their ideas forward. We're here to find the best
ideas here and make the dancer's experience the best it can be. To become
the best callers we can be, we need ideas to be shared, discussed,
challenged and debated so we can find the best ones. We also need this to
be a safe place for people to ask their questions and share their ideas, so
keep being the positive, supportive community I know you can be.
We're better than this. We can have the free exchange of ideas with the
same acceptance and tolerance that we have on the dance floor. This is what
has made this list special for the last 9 1/2 years. Let's not loose sight
of what's important.
Chris Weiler
SharedWeight co-founder/moderator
Craftsbury, VT
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
6:58 p.m.
I, too, feel the loss of Greg on this list. As Chris points out, Greg
has always voiced strong opinions, many of which I find do not fit with
me, my style, or my experience. Are they wrong? They work for him. And
they always cause me to think. And, as Chris points out, some have
modified my approach to things. And, I agree that email is far too easy
to misinterpret. Like, when Greg described the calling by the then
unnamed callers in the videos not good in the way he did, I took it as
hyperbole. I'm guilty of that, too. Maybe not in the same way, but I do
often emphasize a point by exaggeration.
It reminds me of a time when I'd be staying with Cammy Kaynor -- another
brilliant and unorthodox thinker -- and Larry Jennings -- a now departed
icon of contra dance. They had radically differing opinions about a
number of things, and a great appreciation for the care both brought to
the table.
I think that's what I want to say here. It's clear that we, on this
list, have a huge care about this form of dance and music. How we go
about expressing out care for it and the people in the community
sometimes hurts. I've experienced this directly, as much of my sense of
self is wrapped up in fiddle-tunes and dancing. When, in the past,
someone has attacked me directly, I end up lashing out, then
hibernating, then trying to discern what truth may be in someone's
complaint, and, hopefully, growing: in awareness and in understanding.
Very rarely has this caused a permanent break in friendship.
Thanks to Chris for reminding me that I'd like to add these two-cents.
All for now,
~erik hoffman
oakland, ca
On 2/23/2014 12:45 PM, Chris Weiler (Home) wrote:
Callers list members,
First, let me apologize. Due to my health problems and the recent
arrival of my infant son, I have not been able to give this list the
attention it deserves. I have not been on top of moderation requests
and have not kept up with conversations. The most I've been able to
do, most of the time, is read the subject lines.
Now, I was very concerned when the tread titled "A Call For Civility"
hit my inbox and read it. Shortly after, I received Greg McKenzie's
unsubscription notification. I now have been able to read the
conversations leading up to that thread. I've been struggling with how
to respond to the callers list community about this, but I can't let
this go any longer, so I'm just going to have to go with my gut and
stop trying to puzzle it out with my head.
One of the things, actually it's the thing I love the most about the
contra dance community is it's inclusive and tolerant nature. When I
started dancing, I was socially awkward and bumbling. The community
welcomed me each week. I made friends. I got better at social
situations. I found a home. I found love there on the dance floor. I
have seen it over and over again at dances: socially marginal people
being welcomed, tolerated and accommodated in ways that they had never
experienced anywhere else. This is the ideal that makes our community
special. This is why I dedicate myself to creating this community
wherever I live, dance or call. It's why I started this list, so we
could learn how to make it better together.
That's why I've been so disappointed with how Greg was treated by this
community. We are supposed to be the leaders. We are supposed to be
the bearers of the ideals and show our dance communities how it's
done. I've never really understood the problems that people had with
Greg. Yes, he has strong opinions. Yes, he is socially awkward and
doesn't always communicate his intentions clearly. But I've always
found him to be straightforward with his opinions, positive in his
criticism, creative in his thinking and open to feedback. He and I
butted heads many times early in the list history and over on
trad-dance-callers. I've learned a lot in my discussions with him and
reading his posts. I never took any of his criticisms personally,
because he criticized my ideas, not me. He challenged my thinking on
this list and I came out better for it. Not because he convinced me,
but because I thought through my ideas better and understood why they
were right. Although a lot of times, he convinced me to change my
ideas, too.
As part of his social awkwardness, sometimes he crossed the line in a
post. Every time, when people pointed it out to him, he apologized.
Yes, he crossed the line when he criticized the calling of people in
an easily identifiable video. But he apologized for it. Twice. And
then was repeatedly taken to task afterwards. Then talked about
derisively in the third person on-list. And he was right - other
people added the identifying names, not him. A valuable voice in this
community was driven out because his intentions were misunderstood.
Several disapproved of his "tone". I'm not sure how people can
interpret "tone" in an e-mail. It's a medium fraught with
opportunities for misinterpretation. To think that you understand the
"tone" that the author was intending seems crazy to me. We have to
give each other the benefit of the doubt if we are going to continue
to be a healthy and supportive community.
Now, I'm very sad to hear that people have decided not to post because
of Greg. I understand how hard it is to have your ideas challenged and
criticized. But I don't think that I ever read a post of his that was
purposefully mean-spirited or an individual attack. If you have an
example of such and instance, then please forward it to me off-list.
Let's not start another public bash-fest. If you have solid, factual
criticisms of him, then I do want to hear them. It's just that what is
being said now isn't justified by my experience with him.
I encourage people to put their ideas forward. We're here to find the
best ideas here and make the dancer's experience the best it can be.
To become the best callers we can be, we need ideas to be shared,
discussed, challenged and debated so we can find the best ones. We
also need this to be a safe place for people to ask their questions
and share their ideas, so keep being the positive, supportive
community I know you can be.
We're better than this. We can have the free exchange of ideas with
the same acceptance and tolerance that we have on the dance floor.
This is what has made this list special for the last 9 1/2 years.
Let's not loose sight of what's important.
Chris Weiler
SharedWeight co-founder/moderator
Craftsbury, VT
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
7:15 p.m.
i am highly amused and also in love with this thread.
it is the nature of our community to be inclusive. the thought that we have excluded
someone needs to be dealt with.
and we will. everybody is gonna throw their opinion out, greg will come back, we will
move on.
thanks, all :-)
24 Feb
24 Feb
11:10 a.m.
”The ultimate result of shielding men from the results of folly is to fill the world with
fools." Herbert Spencer (1820-1903)
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 2/23/14, Chris Weiler (Home) <chris.weiler(a)weirdtable.org> wrote:
Subject: [Callers] Community
To: "Shared Weight" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Date: Sunday, February 23, 2014, 1:45 PM
Callers list members,
First, let me apologize. Due to my health problems and the
recent arrival of my infant son, I have not been able to
give this list the attention it deserves. I have not been on
top of moderation requests and have not kept up with
conversations. The most I've been able to do, most of the
time, is read the subject lines.
Now, I was very concerned when the tread titled "A Call For
Civility" hit my inbox and read it. Shortly after, I
received Greg McKenzie's unsubscription notification. I now
have been able to read the conversations leading up to that
thread. I've been struggling with how to respond to the
callers list community about this, but I can't let this go
any longer, so I'm just going to have to go with my gut and
stop trying to puzzle it out with my head.
One of the things, actually it's the thing I love the most
about the contra dance community is it's inclusive and
tolerant nature. When I started dancing, I was socially
awkward and bumbling. The community welcomed me each week. I
made friends. I got better at social situations. I found a
home. I found love there on the dance floor. I have seen it
over and over again at dances: socially marginal people
being welcomed, tolerated and accommodated in ways that they
had never experienced anywhere else. This is the ideal that
makes our community special. This is why I dedicate myself
to creating this community wherever I live, dance or call.
It's why I started this list, so we could learn how to make
it better together.
That's why I've been so disappointed with how Greg was
treated by this community. We are supposed to be the
leaders. We are supposed to be the bearers of the ideals and
show our dance communities how it's done. I've never really
understood the problems that people had with Greg. Yes, he
has strong opinions. Yes, he is socially awkward and doesn't
always communicate his intentions clearly. But I've always
found him to be straightforward with his opinions, positive
in his criticism, creative in his thinking and open to
feedback. He and I butted heads many times early in the list
history and over on trad-dance-callers. I've learned a lot
in my discussions with him and reading his posts. I never
took any of his criticisms personally, because he criticized
my ideas, not me. He challenged my thinking on this list and
I came out better for it. Not because he convinced me, but
because I thought through my ideas better and understood why
they were right. Although a lot of times, he convinced me to
change my ideas, too.
As part of his social awkwardness, sometimes he crossed the
line in a post. Every time, when people pointed it out to
him, he apologized. Yes, he crossed the line when he
criticized the calling of people in an easily identifiable
video. But he apologized for it. Twice. And then was
repeatedly taken to task afterwards. Then talked about
derisively in the third person on-list. And he was right -
other people added the identifying names, not him. A
valuable voice in this community was driven out because his
intentions were misunderstood. Several disapproved of his
"tone". I'm not sure how people can interpret "tone" in an
e-mail. It's a medium fraught with opportunities for
misinterpretation. To think that you understand the "tone"
that the author was intending seems crazy to me. We have to
give each other the benefit of the doubt if we are going to
continue to be a healthy and supportive community.
Now, I'm very sad to hear that people have decided not to
post because of Greg. I understand how hard it is to have
your ideas challenged and criticized. But I don't think that
I ever read a post of his that was purposefully
mean-spirited or an individual attack. If you have an
example of such and instance, then please forward it to me
off-list. Let's not start another public bash-fest. If you
have solid, factual criticisms of him, then I do want to
hear them. It's just that what is being said now isn't
justified by my experience with him.
I encourage people to put their ideas forward. We're here to
find the best ideas here and make the dancer's experience
the best it can be. To become the best callers we can be, we
need ideas to be shared, discussed, challenged and debated
so we can find the best ones. We also need this to be a safe
place for people to ask their questions and share their
ideas, so keep being the positive, supportive community I
know you can be.
We're better than this. We can have the free exchange of
ideas with the same acceptance and tolerance that we have on
the dance floor. This is what has made this list special for
the last 9 1/2 years. Let's not loose sight of what's
important.
Chris Weiler
SharedWeight co-founder/moderator
Craftsbury, VT
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
2:29 p.m.
Jean,
Do you really believe that is what is happening here? The man was
chastised and offered a sincere apology. Do you really believe that his
"crime" deserves the punishment of expulsion? Or is it a overblown
response because he rubs people the wrong way sometimes?
Put yourself in his shoes. You misspeak while talking to your friends.
The next thing you know, you're cast out of that social circle with no
chance of redemption. Is that a fair response?
These are not rhetorical questions. I would really like to know what you
think.
Chris
On 2/24/2014 11:10 AM, jean francis wrote:
”The ultimate result of shielding men from the results
of folly is to fill the world with fools." Herbert Spencer (1820-1903)
2:43 p.m.
Hi Chris,
I don't think Jean was saying what you think. "The ultimate result of
shielding men from the results of folly is to fill the world with fools"
means, DON'T ban or expel anybody, even if you think what they're saying is
folly, because we will all turn into fools without having our ideas tested.
In other words, Jean was trying to agree with you.
-Dave
On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Chris Weiler (Home) <
chris.weiler(a)weirdtable.org> wrote:
Jean,
Do you really believe that is what is happening here? The man was
chastised and offered a sincere apology. Do you really believe that his
"crime" deserves the punishment of expulsion? Or is it a overblown response
because he rubs people the wrong way sometimes?
Put yourself in his shoes. You misspeak while talking to your friends. The
next thing you know, you're cast out of that social circle with no chance
of redemption. Is that a fair response?
These are not rhetorical questions. I would really like to know what you
think.
Chris
On 2/24/2014 11:10 AM, jean francis wrote:
--
David Casserly
(cell) 781 258-2761
"The ultimate result of shielding men from
the results of folly is to
fill the world with fools." Herbert Spencer (1820-1903)
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
3:39 p.m.
Dave,
Thanks for the alternate interpretation. I hadn't considered it from
that perspective.
Chris
On 2/24/2014 2:43 PM, Dave Casserly wrote:
Hi Chris,
I don't think Jean was saying what you think. "The ultimate result of
shielding men from the results of folly is to fill the world with fools"
means, DON'T ban or expel anybody, even if you think what they're saying is
folly, because we will all turn into fools without having our ideas tested.
In other words, Jean was trying to agree with you.
-Dave
On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Chris Weiler (Home) <
chris.weiler(a)weirdtable.org> wrote:
Jean,
Do you really believe that is what is happening here? The man was
chastised and offered a sincere apology. Do you really believe that his
"crime" deserves the punishment of expulsion? Or is it a overblown response
because he rubs people the wrong way sometimes?
Put yourself in his shoes. You misspeak while talking to your friends. The
next thing you know, you're cast out of that social circle with no chance
of redemption. Is that a fair response?
These are not rhetorical questions. I would really like to know what you
think.
Chris
On 2/24/2014 11:10 AM, jean francis wrote:
"The ultimate result of shielding men from
the results of folly is to
fill the world with fools." Herbert Spencer (1820-1903)
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
4:37 p.m.
Dave:
Thanks for the clarification. My first thought after reading Jean's post was
"Ouch".
Just another example of why email is so challenging...as a receiver, you don't see the
twinkle of the sender and the sender won't see the wincing of the receiver. Facial
expressions are so important in communication. Email is very easy to "misread",
as we all know.
I think the unfortunate thing about all this is that we'll never know how many of us
will think twice or three times prior to posting in the future. I fear the
"impulsive response" will be impacted for a long time. I don't know about
you but I thrive on the "impulsive response"... I don't have the luxury to
spend any more time on these postings although they are an important part of my learning
as a caller.
Humm, I've already re-read this a bunch of times to be sure I'm clear and not
offensive.
Donna Hunt
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Casserly <david.j.casserly(a)gmail.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Mon, Feb 24, 2014 2:43 pm
Subject: Re: [Callers] Community
Hi Chris,
I don't think Jean was saying what you think. "The ultimate result of
shielding men from the results of folly is to fill the world with fools"
means, DON'T ban or expel anybody, even if you think what they're saying is
folly, because we will all turn into fools without having our ideas tested.
In other words, Jean was trying to agree with you.
-Dave
On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Chris Weiler (Home) <
chris.weiler(a)weirdtable.org> wrote:
Jean,
Do you really believe that is what is happening here? The man was
chastised and offered a sincere apology. Do you really believe that his
"crime" deserves the punishment of expulsion? Or is it a overblown response
because he rubs people the wrong way sometimes?
Put yourself in his shoes. You misspeak while talking to your friends. The
next thing you know, you're cast out of that social circle with no chance
of redemption. Is that a fair response?
These are not rhetorical questions. I would really like to know what you
think.
Chris
On 2/24/2014 11:10 AM, jean francis wrote:
--
David Casserly
(cell) 781 258-2761
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
"The ultimate result of shielding men from
the results of folly is to
fill the world with fools." Herbert Spencer (1820-1903)
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
3:13 p.m.
Dear Chris,
It is a tribute to this group that we want to try and do the right
thing, and spending some time figuring this out certainly seems worth
the effort.
Another perspective might also include the history of the number/
content of posts, not just the gaff that was committed recently. For
me, posts that are overly long, or those that are particularly
repetitive, can be a challenge. And those that are much like a
"lecturing parent" can also cause some displeasure. After a while, I
tend to tune these out, and any useful content gets lost as a result.
I guess that, much in the way that we would like our callers to "teach
succinctly, clearly, and efficiently" when it comes to dances, I would
appreciate posters to self-edit in the same ways. There are lots of
ways that posters have done this successfully. I lost patience with
Greg because he so often seemed to be lecturing the group, rather than
treating us as peers, and often his posts were very repetitive.
Because I lost patience, I had some "Greg fatigue", and gave up
looking at his posts.
I believe another important issue to consider is that there was no
real casting out; unless I am in error, I believe Greg chose to remove
himself from the group. He could have chosen to stay, and to let the
group know that he had learned something new and useful as a result of
the controversy.
This really could be a teachable moment. Who does the teaching, and
how it is done are now the focus, I believe. Your feelings are strong,
so it is clear to me that we should have Greg back in the group. How
that happens is the next challenge.
LInda
On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:29 PM, Chris Weiler (Home) wrote:
Jean,
Do you really believe that is what is happening here? The man was
chastised and offered a sincere apology. Do you really believe that
his "crime" deserves the punishment of expulsion? Or is it a
overblown response because he rubs people the wrong way sometimes?
Put yourself in his shoes. You misspeak while talking to your
friends. The next thing you know, you're cast out of that social
circle with no chance of redemption. Is that a fair response?
These are not rhetorical questions. I would really like to know what
you think.
Chris
On 2/24/2014 11:10 AM, jean francis wrote:
”The ultimate result of shielding men from the
results of folly is
to fill the world with fools." Herbert Spencer (1820-1903)
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers 
5:12 p.m.
I really don't think we should have Greg back in the group. He chose
to leave - let's leave it at that.
Colin Hume
Email colin(a)colinhume.com Web site http://www.colinhume.com
6:18 p.m.
Greg chose to leave. He can choose to return.
Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217-239-5844
Links to photos of many of my drawings and paintings are at www.ArtComesFuerst.com
On Monday, February 24, 2014 4:12 PM, Colin Hume <colin(a)colinhume.com> wrote:
I really don't think we should have Greg back in the group. He chose
to leave - let's leave it at that.
Colin Hume
Email colin(a)colinhume.com Web site http://www.colinhume.com
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
25 Feb
25 Feb
1:08 p.m.
I am with Michael on this. Let it rest for a while, and if Greg comes back, welcome him
in. If I do not want to hear what Greg, or anyone else, has to say, I can delete the
email. Greg, like all of us, has some good to say, and some fluff.
A dissenting voice is often good for a group, even if it is harsh to take. A voice that
is focused on one aspect of calling/dancing may help us all in that area of interest,
even as we tire of the message.
I have heard it said that even a dead clock is right twice a day. Searching through these
emails is often like that. Once in a while, a gem of advice pops up that advances my
calling skills, but I have to read a lot of emails to get there. It must be worth it,
because I keep doing it!
Peace and all good to you,
Rich Sbardella
P.S. "Peace and Good!", "Pax et Bonum", are words often used by
Francis of Assisi, one of histories most famous peacemakers. Francis used these words as
a salutation and/or as a valediction in many off his discourses.
________________________________
From: Michael Fuerst <mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Community
Greg chose to leave. He can choose to return.
Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217-239-5844
Links to photos of many of my drawings and paintings are at www.ArtComesFuerst.com
On Monday, February 24, 2014 4:12 PM, Colin Hume <colin(a)colinhume.com> wrote:
I really don't think we should have Greg back in the group. He chose
to leave - let's leave it at that.
Colin Hume
Email colin(a)colinhume.com Web site http://www.colinhume.com/
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
24 Feb
24 Feb
6:40 p.m.
I think we should.
Bob Livingston
________________________________
From: Colin Hume <colin(a)colinhume.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Community
I really don't think we should have Greg back in the group. He chose
to leave - let's leave it at that.
Colin Hume
Email colin(a)colinhume.com Web site http://www.colinhume.com
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
8 p.m.
I don't, at least not right away. In our dance communities we have occasionally had
problem dancers who would not respond to the usual methods. Talking, reasoning, asking
for civility if you will. Those folks, on very rare occasions, were banned for a period
of time. Some would return with better behavior and some would never come back. Greg
seems to be one of those folks His usual response to being called out is an even longer
diatribe expounding his position. I would advocate not reaching out to him for a period
of time.
While I appreciate Chris' view, so eloquently expressed, I don't think Greg would
learn anything from being asked to return right away. I would welcome him back at a
later date, with open arms.
My 2 cents.
Rich
On Feb 24, 2014, at 3:40 PM, Robert Livingston
<rlivngstn(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
I think we should.
Bob Livingston
________________________________
From: Colin Hume <colin(a)colinhume.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Community
I really don't think we should have Greg back in the group. He chose
to leave - let's leave it at that.
Colin Hume
Email colin(a)colinhume.com Web site http://www.colinhume.com
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
8:21 p.m.
Hi All:
Thanks, Chris, for setting the tone of this thread. No problem here with Greg coming
back, but let's hope he doesn't use SW as his personal soapbox again. I found the
volume and length of his posts were primarily to promote his opinions, and they rarely
advanced the overall discussion. Thankfully no one else here posts like that, and perhaps
those that have avoided SW (including me at times) will be more inclined to have their
voices heard.
Bob
P.S. Speaking of which, thanks to Dean Snipes for writing and clarifying Camp Sertoma
Fairwell, which is clearly a good dance. I obviously mis-interpreted Jack's notation
in the original post.
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 15:40:08 -0800
From: rlivngstn(a)yahoo.com
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] Community
I think we should.
Bob Livingston
________________________________
From: Colin Hume <colin(a)colinhume.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Community
I really don't think we should have Greg back in the group. He chose
to leave - let's leave it at that.
Colin Hume
Email colin(a)colinhume.com Web site http://www.colinhume.com
8:34 p.m.
Greg has given me a bunch of stuff to think about over the years and
made a number of good points; sometimes it's interesting to figure out
why I'm having a violently allergic reaction.
I have never quite understood the complaint that "there's too many long
emails - I have to unsubscribe"; one isn't obliged to read them. (But I
tend to be a talky little blaggard myself.)
That said, Greg bailed because, he said, "I know where this is going".
I have no objection to his re-upping, and if Chris wants to send him a
note saying there was never any plan to ban him - which is true, as far
as I know - I would be fine with that.
As a list-owner myself, I know it's difficult to manage this kind of
thing, and I appreciate Chris's efforts.
-- Alan
On 2/24/2014 5:21 PM, Bob Isaacs wrote:
Hi All:
Thanks, Chris, for setting the tone of this thread. No problem here with Greg coming
back, but let's hope he doesn't use SW as his personal soapbox again. I found the
volume and length of his posts were primarily to promote his opinions, and they rarely
advanced the overall discussion. Thankfully no one else here posts like that, and perhaps
those that have avoided SW (including me at times) will be more inclined to have their
voices heard.
Bob
P.S. Speaking of which, thanks to Dean Snipes for writing and clarifying Camp Sertoma
Fairwell, which is clearly a good dance. I obviously mis-interpreted Jack's notation
in the original post.
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 15:40:08 -0800
From: rlivngstn(a)yahoo.com
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] Community
I think we should.
Bob Livingston
________________________________
From: Colin Hume <colin(a)colinhume.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Community
I really don't think we should have Greg back in the group. He chose
to leave - let's leave it at that.
Colin Hume
Email colin(a)colinhume.com Web site http://www.colinhume.com
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers 
8:50 p.m.
This reminds me a lot of a situation in one of the nearby communities. There was a dancer
who was openly rude to the other dancers and the callers in particular. An example would
be from the floor calling the caller a Nazi. He was extremely disruptive, and I went to
their board to request they do something about it since I would not feel comfortable
calling there any more. They admitted that they had had a number of complaints about this
dancer, but because contra communities are so inclusive, they couldn't ask him to
leave. My question to them was whether it was more important to be inclusive to a very
disruptive dancer and in turn lose many dancers (both new and long-term) due to his
behavior; or ask him to leave for a period such as 6 months and subsequently building
their dance community or at least reducing the probability of people (including callers)
not returning.
From:jean francis <catherineaura(a)yahoo.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Community
”The ultimate result of shielding men from the results of folly is to fill the world with
fools." Herbert Spencer (1820-1903)
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 2/23/14, Chris Weiler (Home) <chris.weiler(a)weirdtable.org> wrote:
Subject: [Callers] Community
To: "Shared Weight" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Date: Sunday, February 23, 2014, 1:45 PM
Callers list members,
First, let me apologize. Due to my health problems and the
recent arrival of my infant son, I have not been able to
give this list the attention it deserves. I have not been on
top of moderation requests and have not kept up with
conversations. The most I've been able to do, most of the
time, is read the subject lines.
Now, I was very concerned when the tread titled "A Call For
Civility" hit my inbox and read it. Shortly after, I
received Greg McKenzie's unsubscription notification. I now
have been able to read the conversations leading up to that
thread. I've been struggling with how to respond to the
callers list community about this, but I can't let this go
any longer, so I'm just going to have to go with my gut and
stop trying to puzzle it out with my head.
One of the things, actually it's the thing I love the most
about the contra dance community is it's inclusive and
tolerant nature. When I started dancing, I was socially
awkward and bumbling. The community welcomed me each week. I
made friends. I got better at social situations. I found a
home. I found love there on the dance floor. I have seen it
over and over again at dances: socially marginal people
being welcomed, tolerated and accommodated in ways that they
had never experienced anywhere else. This is the ideal that
makes our community special. This is why I dedicate myself
to creating this community wherever I live, dance or call.
It's why I started this list, so we could learn how to make
it better together.
That's why I've been so disappointed with how Greg was
treated by this community. We are supposed to be the
leaders. We are supposed to be the bearers of the ideals and
show our dance communities how it's done. I've never really
understood the problems that people had with Greg. Yes, he
has strong opinions. Yes, he is socially awkward and doesn't
always communicate his intentions clearly. But I've always
found him to be straightforward with his opinions, positive
in his criticism, creative in his thinking and open to
feedback. He and I butted heads many times early in the list
history and over on trad-dance-callers. I've learned a lot
in my discussions with him and reading his posts. I never
took any of his criticisms personally, because he criticized
my ideas, not me. He challenged my thinking on this list and
I came out better for it. Not because he convinced me, but
because I thought through my ideas better and understood why
they were right. Although a lot of times, he convinced me to
change my ideas, too.
As part of his social awkwardness, sometimes he crossed the
line in a post. Every time, when people pointed it out to
him, he apologized. Yes, he crossed the line when he
criticized the calling of people in an easily identifiable
video. But he apologized for it. Twice. And then was
repeatedly taken to task afterwards. Then talked about
derisively in the third person on-list. And he was right -
other people added the identifying names, not him. A
valuable voice in this community was driven out because his
intentions were misunderstood. Several disapproved of his
"tone". I'm not sure how people can interpret "tone" in an
e-mail. It's a medium fraught with opportunities for
misinterpretation. To think that you understand the "tone"
that the author was intending seems crazy to me. We have to
give each other the benefit of the doubt if we are going to
continue to be a healthy and supportive community.
Now, I'm very sad to hear that people have decided not to
post because of Greg. I understand how hard it is to have
your ideas challenged and criticized. But I don't think that
I ever read a post of his that was purposefully
mean-spirited or an individual attack. If you have an
example of such and instance, then please forward it to me
off-list. Let's not start another public bash-fest. If you
have solid, factual criticisms of him, then I do want to
hear them. It's just that what is being said now isn't
justified by my experience with him.
I encourage people to put their ideas forward. We're here to
find the best ideas here and make the dancer's experience
the best it can be. To become the best callers we can be, we
need ideas to be shared, discussed, challenged and debated
so we can find the best ones. We also need this to be a safe
place for people to ask their questions and share their
ideas, so keep being the positive, supportive community I
know you can be.
We're better than this. We can have the free exchange of
ideas with the same acceptance and tolerance that we have on
the dance floor. This is what has made this list special for
the last 9 1/2 years. Let's not loose sight of what's
important.
Chris Weiler
SharedWeight co-founder/moderator
Craftsbury, VT
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
9:09 p.m.
I just wanted to chime in - not at anyone in particular at all - simply for
those who may not consciously be thinking about it:
There are some of us who lurk and read, and for one or more of a multitude
of reasons, only post occasionally. There are always a lot more people
reading that are actually responding. (Some of us are still newish to the
calling community and still forming opinions of everyone, too.)
Warm regards,
Ron Blechner
On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 8:50 PM, lynn ackerson <callynn1(a)pacbell.net> wrote:
This reminds me a lot of a situation in one of the
nearby communities.
There was a dancer who was openly rude to the other dancers and the callers
in particular. An example would be from the floor calling the caller a
Nazi. He was extremely disruptive, and I went to their board to request
they do something about it since I would not feel comfortable calling there
any more. They admitted that they had had a number of complaints about this
dancer, but because contra communities are so inclusive, they couldn't ask
him to leave. My question to them was whether it was more important to be
inclusive to a very disruptive dancer and in turn lose many dancers (both
new and long-term) due to his behavior; or ask him to leave for a period
such as 6 months and subsequently building their dance community or at
least reducing the probability of people (including callers) not returning.
From:jean francis <catherineaura(a)yahoo.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Community
"The ultimate result of shielding men from the results of folly is to fill
the world with fools." Herbert Spencer (1820-1903)
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 2/23/14, Chris Weiler (Home) <chris.weiler(a)weirdtable.org> wrote:
Subject: [Callers] Community
To: "Shared Weight" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Date: Sunday, February 23, 2014, 1:45 PM
Callers list members,
First, let me apologize. Due to my health problems and the
recent arrival of my infant son, I have not been able to
give this list the attention it deserves. I have not been on
top of moderation requests and have not kept up with
conversations. The most I've been able to do, most of the
time, is read the subject lines.
Now, I was very concerned when the tread titled "A Call For
Civility" hit my inbox and read it. Shortly after, I
received Greg McKenzie's unsubscription notification. I now
have been able to read the conversations leading up to that
thread. I've been struggling with how to respond to the
callers list community about this, but I can't let this go
any longer, so I'm just going to have to go with my gut and
stop trying to puzzle it out with my head.
One of the things, actually it's the thing I love the most
about the contra dance community is it's inclusive and
tolerant nature. When I started dancing, I was socially
awkward and bumbling. The community welcomed me each week. I
made friends. I got better at social situations. I found a
home. I found love there on the dance floor. I have seen it
over and over again at dances: socially marginal people
being welcomed, tolerated and accommodated in ways that they
had never experienced anywhere else. This is the ideal that
makes our community special. This is why I dedicate myself
to creating this community wherever I live, dance or call.
It's why I started this list, so we could learn how to make
it better together.
That's why I've been so disappointed with how Greg was
treated by this community. We are supposed to be the
leaders. We are supposed to be the bearers of the ideals and
show our dance communities how it's done. I've never really
understood the problems that people had with Greg. Yes, he
has strong opinions. Yes, he is socially awkward and doesn't
always communicate his intentions clearly. But I've always
found him to be straightforward with his opinions, positive
in his criticism, creative in his thinking and open to
feedback. He and I butted heads many times early in the list
history and over on trad-dance-callers. I've learned a lot
in my discussions with him and reading his posts. I never
took any of his criticisms personally, because he criticized
my ideas, not me. He challenged my thinking on this list and
I came out better for it. Not because he convinced me, but
because I thought through my ideas better and understood why
they were right. Although a lot of times, he convinced me to
change my ideas, too.
As part of his social awkwardness, sometimes he crossed the
line in a post. Every time, when people pointed it out to
him, he apologized. Yes, he crossed the line when he
criticized the calling of people in an easily identifiable
video. But he apologized for it. Twice. And then was
repeatedly taken to task afterwards. Then talked about
derisively in the third person on-list. And he was right -
other people added the identifying names, not him. A
valuable voice in this community was driven out because his
intentions were misunderstood. Several disapproved of his
"tone". I'm not sure how people can interpret "tone" in an
e-mail. It's a medium fraught with opportunities for
misinterpretation. To think that you understand the "tone"
that the author was intending seems crazy to me. We have to
give each other the benefit of the doubt if we are going to
continue to be a healthy and supportive community.
Now, I'm very sad to hear that people have decided not to
post because of Greg. I understand how hard it is to have
your ideas challenged and criticized. But I don't think that
I ever read a post of his that was purposefully
mean-spirited or an individual attack. If you have an
example of such and instance, then please forward it to me
off-list. Let's not start another public bash-fest. If you
have solid, factual criticisms of him, then I do want to
hear them. It's just that what is being said now isn't
justified by my experience with him.
I encourage people to put their ideas forward. We're here to
find the best ideas here and make the dancer's experience
the best it can be. To become the best callers we can be, we
need ideas to be shared, discussed, challenged and debated
so we can find the best ones. We also need this to be a safe
place for people to ask their questions and share their
ideas, so keep being the positive, supportive community I
know you can be.
We're better than this. We can have the free exchange of
ideas with the same acceptance and tolerance that we have on
the dance floor. This is what has made this list special for
the last 9 1/2 years. Let's not loose sight of what's
important.
Chris Weiler
SharedWeight co-founder/moderator
Craftsbury, VT
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
25 Feb
25 Feb
11:21 a.m.
On Mon, Feb 24, 2014, lynn ackerson wrote:
This reminds me a lot of a situation in one of the nearby communities.
There was a dancer who was openly rude to the other dancers and the
callers in particular. An example would be from the floor calling
the caller a Nazi. He was extremely disruptive, and I went to their
board to request they do something about it since I would not feel
comfortable calling there any more. They admitted that they had had a
number of complaints about this dancer, but because contra communities
are so inclusive, they couldn't ask him to leave. My question to them
was whether it was more important to be inclusive to a very disruptive
dancer and in turn lose many dancers (both new and long-term) due to
his behavior; or ask him to leave for a period such as 6 months and
subsequently building their dance community or at least reducing the
probability of people (including callers) not returning.
Sounds like you're talking about the Geek Social Fallacies:
http://plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html
However, what you're talking about is sufficiently different in degree
from what Greg was doing as to be different in kind (particularly with
the example of "Nazi"), and I think it is unfair to bring that up in
relation to Greg.
(I have some thoughts about Greg, still debating with myself whether to
post them. ;-)
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
3953
days inactive
3955
days old
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
19 comments
18 participants
participants (18)
-
Aahz Maruch -
Alan Winston -
barb kirchner -
Bob Isaacs -
Chris Weiler (Home) -
Colin Hume -
Dave Casserly -
Don Veino -
Donna Hunt -
Erik Hoffman -
jean francis -
Linda Leslie -
lynn ackerson -
Michael Fuerst -
Rich Goss -
rich sbardella -
Robert Livingston -
Ron Blechner