Which of these improper dances  are the "same" ? All contain         the 32 count sequence:  Circle left, neighbors swing;  women chain over and back and also       Partners swing in center, end facing new neighbors and also      Do-si-do across once and a  quarter to form one long way line withe everyone in center,              with opposite sex person in right hand, and same sex person left han Which of these do you like best, and why ? Dance 1 A1 Circle left, neighbors swing A2 Women chain over and back B1 Partners do-si-do 1 1/4 to form a long wavy he-he-she-she line in center containing all dancers (right hand joined with partner, men's left hands joined with their next male neighbor, women's left hands joined with current female neighbor). Balance right, then left, partners allemande right once around. B2 Left shoulder gypsy same sex person who had been in left hand Partners swing in center, end facing new neighbors. Dance 2 A1 Circle left, neighbors swing A2 Women chain to partner, long lines forward and back B1 Neighbors do-si-do 1 1/4 to form a long wavy he-he-she-she line in center containing all dancers (right hand joined with neighbor, men's left hands joined with their next male neighbor, women's left hands joined with current female neighbor). Balance right, then left, allemande right current neighbor. B2 Left shoulder gypsy same sex person who had been in left hand, men gypsy once around, women gypsy 1 1/2 Partners swing in center, end facing new neighbors. Dance 3 A1 Do-si-do partner 1 1/4 to make a single long wave (right hand to partner, left hand to same sex) Balance, allemande right partner A2 Allemande left same sex person, swing partner, end facing neighbors. B1 Circle left, swing neighbor B2 Women chain over and back   Michael Fuerst      802 N Broadway      Urbana IL 61801       217-239-5844 Links to photos of many of my drawings and paintings are at www.ArtComesFuerst.com On Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:00 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: Ron, what a great question.  I think it's interesting that Ted  Sannella once said that a dance had to have 50% different  choreography in order to be a new dance.  Although I never asked him  why, it occurred to me that there might be a historical reason for  his view. Take Petronella, Hull's Victory and others.  They have unigue A parts  but the same B: ones down the center, return, cast, rights and lefts.... Chorus Jig and Rory O'More fit the same pattern, different A but  share the same B. Even squares can fit the same pattern.  Look at how many squares have  as their B part, circle left half, swing corner, promenade. T _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Michael, If I were writing these dances, I'd probably give them all the same name and call them #1, #2, and #3, because they have the same overall sense and theme - easier for me to keep track of them. If different people had written them at different times, they could probably call them different names. However, if I wrote one of these this close after seeing one of the others - then I would call it "variant of so-and-so's dance X". 1 and 3 appear to just start in different places, aside from the gypsy to allemande switch. I certainly wouldn't give a new name to that, just call it a variant. Dance 2 is awkward because of the different amount of gypsying that men and women do. Harder to teach, harder to dance, timing issues in getting back to P at same time. If you are going to have a he-he-she-she wavy line, this is not the best one of these to use, and I probably wouldn't call it. As for 1 vs 3, 1 is the better composition. Starts easy, easier to teach, easier to know you've made the transition and are dancing with new people. The left shoulder gypsy can be a smaller circumference move then the allemande - and this dance is going to have issues with people in tight lines banging into each other. In fact, it might be better to gypsy right the partner, except you have right hands joined so it makes sense to allemande. Ends with the partner swing, more satisfying than ending with women chain. That said, it is only a dance to be called with plenty of space along the lines. Which is another reason #2 is not as good - when you put in a forward and back, it can limit the distance that the couples can get away from one another along the line, making the HHSS line a lot tighter and unpleasant for the allemande and partner swing. Martha On Aug 1, 2014, at 4:23 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers wrote: _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net