6 Feb
2012
6 Feb
'12
9:07 p.m.
Gang --
I think star promenade with a butterfly whirl has the potential to be a
satisfying, connected figure, but in my experience it rarely is.
What I want to have happen is that the inside people (usually men) retain
their allemande hold including the satisfying allemande amount of weight on
that arm, the women the men have an arm around are pulling away with enough
weight to feel connected, you get round in time, and the inside people push off
from the joined hand to launch a spin for the whirl. When that's happened for
me as a dancer, I've really enjoyed it, but it's really rare. Even the last
time I danced at the Scout House I got maybe two out of 15 possible on-time
pushoffs, and in California I'm lucky if I get one in a whole dance.
I presume this doesn't happen because pretty much all four people have to want
to make it happen and know how. At the contra I called last night, calling Amy
Cann's "Sweet Music" (*great* dance), I tried just hinting at the connected
part: "Men allemande left once a half. Keeping that same feeling of
connection, scoop up your partner and star promenade. Butterfly whirl and the
women use their momentum to start a hey for four ..."
Well, they got the sequence fine, but I was watching the floor and there was a
fair amount of men not even keeping a hand-hold with each other, much less a
connected one. And of course if you don't have that counterbalance on the
other end of your arm you can't get around as fast.
All that's a long build-up to: Anybody got hints for briefly and effectively
teaching a *good* star promenade? (Not just the geography - that's easy enough
- but the dynamics that make it satisfying.)
Thanks,
-- Alan
--
===============================================================================
Alan Winston --- WINSTON(a)SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056
Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025
===============================================================================
6 Feb
6 Feb
9:29 p.m.
New subject: Star Promenade - communicate the feeling of a good one?
All that's a long build-up to: Anybody got hints
for briefly and
effectively
teaching a *good* star promenade? (Not just the geography - that's easy
enough
- but the dynamics that make it satisfying.)
Thanks,
-- Alan
-
Let me look at some of the "Boot Heel Boys" raw video. Jim & John
both like
to sprinkle star promenades into their dances, and particularly when Jim is
calling, I seem to remember them almost always feeling pretty good. Here
are some edited ones, but they don't help much with your real question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFz4U3Y3OEM&feature=player_embedded#ded#!
http://dancevideos.childgrove.org/contra/contra-modern/193-caveman.html
Bob
7 Feb
7 Feb
3:08 p.m.
New subject: Star Promenade - communicate the feeling of a good one?
I love a good star promenade and butterfly whirl, but there are inherent
issues that crop up at almost every dance. First and foremost is the
experienced dancers who are too busy doing their "flourishes" to actually
do the appropriate move (and are thereby teaching inexperienced dancers
that the flourish is more important and more fun than the actual move) or
to do it at the appropriate time and who just flat out don't understand how
important it is to help the other dancers. Callers are also part of the
problem. They almost never teach dancers that there is very little
waiting/standing in a contra or square dance, even if someone else is doing
the move [Think of baseball fielders beginning to move as the pitcher is
making the release...even though they have no diea wher the ball is going
to be hit]. As to the star promenade/butterfly whirl, the non-allemander
(now there's a word) should be moving before the person he/she is going to
promenade with gets there. This happens on other moves as well--think of
all the 20 beat heys you've encountered. We should also consider
counseling new/inexperienced dancers that the music will help them to know
when to terminate a move and begin the next, and that stopping early is
almost always better than stopping late. I mentioned this at a dance
recently where I was calling and some of the dancers applauded. Callers can
also help by making the call before the move, which we all know we should
be doing anyway (though we all sometimes fail to do). It also very rare
that I hear a caller/instructor remind dancers that if they are late for or
actually miss a move not to worry, but if at all possible to get on to the
next move in time.
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Bob Green <bobgreen(a)swbell.net> wrote:
All that's
a long build-up to: Anybody got hints for briefly and
effectively
teaching a *good* star promenade? (Not just the geography - that's easy
enough
- but the dynamics that make it satisfying.)
Thanks,
-- Alan
-
Let me look at some of the "Boot Heel Boys" raw video. Jim & John
both like
to sprinkle star promenades into their dances, and particularly when Jim is
calling, I seem to remember them almost always feeling pretty good. Here
are some edited ones, but they don't help much with your real question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFz4U3Y3OEM&feature=player_embedded#ded#!
http://dancevideos.childgrove.org/contra/contra-modern/193-caveman.html
Bob
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
3:18 p.m.
New subject: Star Promenade - communicate the feeling of a good one?
There are different reasons that people contra dance. I'm pretty sure
that for some, it really is about the flourishes, and the flirtiness
thereof, and therefore it's more important to them than being on time.
Unless they are actually causing the set to fall apart, I'm not sure
this is per se a problem, nor if so what the solution would be without
discouraging some people from coming to the dance.
It seems to me that being too strict about the dancing leads to
situations like we had several years ago locally, where a bunch of
dancers who had been dancing at a particular location for many years
were offended by all the wacky stuff the “young people” were doing.
This is part of why, to this day, there is still a strong separation
of who dances in which lines.
The challenge for organizers and callers is really to make the dance
welcoming to a variety of people, even though those people may want
somewhat different things from the dance.
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 15:08, George Mercer <geopmercer(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I love a good star promenade and butterfly whirl, but
there are inherent
issues that crop up at almost every dance. First and foremost is the
experienced dancers who are too busy doing their "flourishes" to actually
do the appropriate move (and are thereby teaching inexperienced dancers
that the flourish is more important and more fun than the actual move) or
to do it at the appropriate time and who just flat out don't understand how
important it is to help the other dancers. Callers are also part of the
problem. They almost never teach dancers that there is very little
waiting/standing in a contra or square dance, even if someone else is doing
the move [Think of baseball fielders beginning to move as the pitcher is
making the release...even though they have no diea wher the ball is going
to be hit]. As to the star promenade/butterfly whirl, the non-allemander
(now there's a word) should be moving before the person he/she is going to
promenade with gets there. This happens on other moves as well--think of
all the 20 beat heys you've encountered. We should also consider
counseling new/inexperienced dancers that the music will help them to know
when to terminate a move and begin the next, and that stopping early is
almost always better than stopping late. I mentioned this at a dance
recently where I was calling and some of the dancers applauded. Callers can
also help by making the call before the move, which we all know we should
be doing anyway (though we all sometimes fail to do). It also very rare
that I hear a caller/instructor remind dancers that if they are late for or
actually miss a move not to worry, but if at all possible to get on to the
next move in time.
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Bob Green <bobgreen(a)swbell.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________
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All
that's a long build-up to: Anybody got hints for briefly and
effectively
teaching a *good* star promenade? (Not just the geography - that's easy
enough
- but the dynamics that make it satisfying.)
Thanks,
-- Alan
-
Let me look at some of the "Boot Heel Boys" raw video. Jim & John
both like
to sprinkle star promenades into their dances, and particularly when Jim is
calling, I seem to remember them almost always feeling pretty good. Here
are some edited ones, but they don't help much with your real question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFz4U3Y3OEM&feature=player_embedded#ded#!
http://dancevideos.childgrove.org/contra/contra-modern/193-caveman.html
Bob
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
3:41 p.m.
New subject: Star Promenade - communicate the feeling of a good one?
Charles: I tend to agree and I may be becoming too much of a codger. I
don't want to discourage flourishes. When I was younger I was quite up to
putting on the style--it was almost a calling card. But I learned almost
from the beginning that I could do just about anything as long as I ended
up where I was supposed to be--on time. I agree that fun is central to the
dance, but I also insist that courtesy is also essential. I have the same
issue with the nearly ubiquitous "Petronella clap." I don't usually do it
but don't care if others do. It does, however, remain a flourish.
Inevitably it is the first thing about a petronella twirl that newcomers
pick up and almost as inevitably it contributes to unnecessary confusion
for them. Clap away, twirl away, jump and shout, get down and get funky,
but help the newcomers/inexperienced dancers learn to become experienced
dancers.
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Charles Hannum <root(a)ihack.net> wrote:
There are different reasons that people contra dance.
I'm pretty sure
that for some, it really is about the flourishes, and the flirtiness
thereof, and therefore it's more important to them than being on time.
Unless they are actually causing the set to fall apart, I'm not sure
this is per se a problem, nor if so what the solution would be without
discouraging some people from coming to the dance.
It seems to me that being too strict about the dancing leads to
situations like we had several years ago locally, where a bunch of
dancers who had been dancing at a particular location for many years
were offended by all the wacky stuff the “young people” were doing.
This is part of why, to this day, there is still a strong separation
of who dances in which lines.
The challenge for organizers and callers is really to make the dance
welcoming to a variety of people, even though those people may want
somewhat different things from the dance.
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 15:08, George Mercer <geopmercer(a)gmail.com> wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
I love a good star promenade and butterfly whirl,
but there are inherent
issues that crop up at almost every dance. First and foremost is the
experienced dancers who are too busy doing their "flourishes" to actually
do the appropriate move (and are thereby teaching inexperienced dancers
that the flourish is more important and more fun than the actual move) or
to do it at the appropriate time and who just flat out don't understand
how
important it is to help the other dancers.
Callers are also part of the
problem. They almost never teach dancers that there is very little
waiting/standing in a contra or square dance, even if someone else is
doing
the move [Think of baseball fielders beginning to
move as the pitcher is
making the release...even though they have no diea wher the ball is going
to be hit]. As to the star promenade/butterfly whirl, the non-allemander
(now there's a word) should be moving before the person he/she is going
to
promenade with gets there. This happens on other
moves as well--think of
all the 20 beat heys you've encountered. We should also consider
counseling new/inexperienced dancers that the music will help them to
know
when to terminate a move and begin the next, and
that stopping early is
almost always better than stopping late. I mentioned this at a dance
recently where I was calling and some of the dancers applauded. Callers
can
also help by making the call before the move,
which we all know we should
be doing anyway (though we all sometimes fail to do). It also very rare
that I hear a caller/instructor remind dancers that if they are late for
or
actually miss a move not to worry, but if at all
possible to get on to
the
next move in time.
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Bob Green <bobgreen(a)swbell.net> wrote:
> > All that's a long build-up to: Anybody got hints for briefly and
> > effectively
> > teaching a *good* star promenade? (Not just the geography - that's
easy
> > enough
> > - but the dynamics that make it satisfying.)
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -- Alan
> >
> >
> > -
> >
> Let me look at some of the "Boot Heel Boys" raw video. Jim & John both
like
> to sprinkle star promenades into their
dances, and particularly when
Jim is
calling,
I seem to remember them almost always feeling pretty good. Here
are some edited ones, but they don't help much with your real question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFz4U3Y3OEM&feature=player_embedded#ded#!
http://dancevideos.childgrove.org/contra/contra-modern/193-caveman.html
Bob
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Callers mailing list
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http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
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http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers 
4 p.m.
New subject: Star Promenade - communicate the feeling of a good one?
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:41 PM, George Mercer <geopmercer(a)gmail.com> wrote:
dance, but I also insist that courtesy is also
essential. I have the same
issue with the nearly ubiquitous "Petronella clap." I don't usually do it
but don't care if others do. It does, however, remain a flourish.
Inevitably it is the first thing about a petronella twirl that newcomers
pick up and almost as inevitably it contributes to unnecessary confusion
for them.
I don't suggest one way or the other on clapping. The times I've
called "Cure for the Claps" I haven't mentioned the name of the dance,
but few or none clap for that as they want to get on with the dance
(swing follows twirl).
When there is time, like the frequent sequence of balance ring, twirl,
balance ring, I find the clap to be the great synchronizer. You hear
it and know where you're supposed to be.
8 Feb
8 Feb
12:55 p.m.
New subject: Star Promenade - communicate the feeling of a good one?
Hmmm. I agree with everything below except for:
As to the star promenade/butterfly whirl, the
non-allemander* should be
moving before the person he/she is going to promenade with
gets there. *
This may be true in some cases, but I think the caller needs to be careful
here - I would choose
"be ready to be swept up" instead.
I have very clear memories of dancing the inside part of a star promenade
and having a VERY unsatisfying time of it, just like in the original post.
The main problem? The outsides kept "helping" me by starting to walk round
the star before I got there and really latched on.
It didn't feel like a mini, gentle, star-shaped game of crack-the-whip, it
felt like a bunch of outsides promenading around a little track while the
insides trotted to catch up, their inner hands hooked together in a tangle
that had no functional purpose.
Bleh.
The ones that felt the best were the ones that waited until my arm was
truly around their waist, and then *hung back a little* .
When dancing the outside, it felt to me that "giving weight behind myself"
made it work best.
Just my two cents.
Oh, and BTW:
calling Amy Cann's "Sweet Music" (*great*
dance),
Nope. :)
I mean, yep, it is a great dance, but --
Amy Kahn, rhymes with "John", lives in western NY and wrote the dance
"Sweet Music".
Amy Cann, rhymes with "Dan", lives in Vermont and wrote the tune
"Catharsis" and the dance "High Five."
Cheers,
Amy
1:08 p.m.
New subject: Star Promenade - communicate the feeling of a good one?
Amy wrote:
(good stuff about the star promenade; feels good with
Hmmm. I agree with everything below except for:
The ones that felt the best were the ones that waited
until my arm was
truly around their waist, and then *hung back a little* .
When dancing the outside, it felt to me that
"giving weight behind myself"
made it work best.
and:
Oh, and BTW:
>calling Amy Cann's "Sweet Music"
(*great* dance),
Nope. :)
I mean, yep, it is a great dance, but --
Amy Kahn, rhymes with "John", lives in
western NY and wrote the dance
"Sweet Music".
Amy Cann, rhymes with "Dan", lives in Vermont and wrote the tune
"Catharsis" and the dance "High Five."
Thanks for the correction!
-- Alan
--
===============================================================================
Alan Winston --- WINSTON(a)SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056
Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025
===============================================================================
6:28 p.m.
What Amy said. Hear, hear.
It is very unpleasant to arrive at the spot where I am supposed to meet
a lady to start a star promenade but find her already part way across
the set, so I have to chase her to try to catch up with her. Usually
that happens in time for the butterfly whirl, but that's too late to
have the "satisfying, connected" star promenade that Alan is looking for.
-- Marlin
On 02/08/2012 12:55 PM, Amy Cann wrote:
Hmmm. I agree with everything below except for:
As to the star promenade/butterfly whirl, the
non-allemander* should be
moving before the person he/she is going to promenade
with gets there. *
This may be true in some cases, but I think the caller needs to be careful
here - I would choose
"be ready to be swept up" instead.
I have very clear memories of dancing the inside part of a star promenade
and having a VERY unsatisfying time of it, just like in the original post.
The main problem? The outsides kept "helping" me by starting to walk round
the star before I got there and really latched on.
It didn't feel like a mini, gentle, star-shaped game of crack-the-whip, it
felt like a bunch of outsides promenading around a little track while the
insides trotted to catch up, their inner hands hooked together in a tangle
that had no functional purpose.
Bleh.
The ones that felt the best were the ones that waited until my arm was
truly around their waist, and then *hung back a little* .
When dancing the outside, it felt to me that "giving weight behind myself"
made it work best.
Just my two cents.
Oh, and BTW:
calling Amy Cann's "Sweet Music"
(*great* dance),
Nope. :)
I mean, yep, it is a great dance, but --
Amy Kahn, rhymes with "John", lives in western NY and wrote the dance
"Sweet Music".
Amy Cann, rhymes with "Dan", lives in Vermont and wrote the tune
"Catharsis" and the dance "High Five."
Cheers,
Amy
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
6:52 p.m.
New subject: Star Promenade - communicate the feeling of a good one?
On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 5:28 PM, Marlin Whitaker <marlinw(a)gmail.com> wrote:
What Amy said. Hear, hear.
It is very unpleasant to arrive at the spot where I am supposed to meet a
lady to start a star promenade but find her already part way across the
set, so I have to chase her to try to catch up with her. Usually that
happens in time for the butterfly whirl, but that's too late to have the
"satisfying, connected" star promenade that Alan is looking for.
-- Marlin
It is difficult to teach subtlety, especially from 'the pulpit". In
workshops or while dancing with partners it is you are more likely to be
able to transmit the difference between being "to hard to pick up and get
it motion" and "Hey, wait for me." As a caller, I think the best you can
do
include it in a workshop, or an occasional demo with some dancers you know
from experience have the timing.
Bob
7 p.m.
New subject: Star Promenade - communicate the feeling of a good one?
I have been reading these complaints about ladies who start across the set
with great interest, having hitherto been one of those ladies. I'll
certainly try not to be one in the future... BUT
BUT the reason is that there is NO ROOM for the star promenade until you
get past the lady coming at you from the opposite direction in the next
set. Shall I give the gentleman a satisfying bit of whirling and get myself
clocked by the oncoming lady's shoulder? Shall I hang back and make us
late? Or shall I go forward and be there when the gentleman gets there?
ALSO - many times the gentlemen are late in deciding what to do, or they've
run into traffic, so they're often not there at the moment you should be
starting that portion of the promenade. Beginning across the set before
the gentleman gets there is usually simply another attempt to stay with the
music.
After listening to you all, I would be remiss in not attempting to hold
back and wait for the gentleman to come pick me up. I shall do so
henceforth, earnestly and in good faith, and I shall report my injuries, if
any, to my shoulder or to my sense of timing, to you in the future.
M
E
On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 5:28 PM, Marlin Whitaker <marlinw(a)gmail.com> wrote:
What Amy said. Hear, hear.
It is very unpleasant to arrive at the spot where I am supposed to meet a
lady to start a star promenade but find her already part way across the
set, so I have to chase her to try to catch up with her. Usually that
happens in time for the butterfly whirl, but that's too late to have the
"satisfying, connected" star promenade that Alan is looking for.
-- Marlin
On 02/08/2012 12:55 PM, Amy Cann wrote:
--
As you set out for Ithaka, pray that your journey be long, full of
adventure, full of discovery...
May there be many summer mornings when, with what pleasure, with what joy,
you enter harbors you're seeing for the first time.
~Constantine Cavafy, "Ithaka" 1911
Hmmm. I agree with everything below except for:
As to the star promenade/butterfly whirl, the non-allemander* should be
moving before the person he/she is going
to promenade with gets there. *
This may be true in some cases, but I think the caller needs to be careful
here - I would choose
"be ready to be swept up" instead.
I have very clear memories of dancing the inside part of a star promenade
and having a VERY unsatisfying time of it, just like in the original post.
The main problem? The outsides kept "helping" me by starting to walk round
the star before I got there and really latched on.
It didn't feel like a mini, gentle, star-shaped game of crack-the-whip, it
felt like a bunch of outsides promenading around a little track while the
insides trotted to catch up, their inner hands hooked together in a tangle
that had no functional purpose.
Bleh.
The ones that felt the best were the ones that waited until my arm was
truly around their waist, and then *hung back a little* .
When dancing the outside, it felt to me that "giving weight behind myself"
made it work best.
Just my two cents.
Oh, and BTW:
calling Amy Cann's "Sweet Music" (*great* dance),
Nope. :)
I mean, yep, it is a great dance, but --
Amy Kahn, rhymes with "John", lives in western NY and wrote the dance
"Sweet Music".
Amy Cann, rhymes with "Dan", lives in Vermont and wrote the tune
"Catharsis" and the dance "High Five."
Cheers,
Amy
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8:22 p.m.
New subject: Star Promenade - communicate the feeling of a good one?
Very interesting insights - thanks.
At our dance last Saturday, we had 30 visiting contra dancers from the US.
One of the visiting callers Bob O'Brien taught a dance with (partner) star
promenade and
butterfly whirl. I have never used a dance with these moves at our dances (which
started in 2008), but people picked it up with Bob's help and the help of those
visitors
partnering us locals.
The dance had a real mixture of people from 13-80 and ranging from the highly
experienced visitors, to a few people who had never been before. Not many are
able to use all the subtleties
that make up an ideal star prom/butter whirl, most got into the butterfly whirl
which lead nicely
into the hey and everyone had a good time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZaMcKRJuh0
A footnote: in MWSD reverse flutter wheel has a similar action to the star prom
part, but there the outsides are expected to "help." So ex square dancers may
have to extinguish bad habits.
Cheers, Bill
8:16 p.m.
New subject: Star Promenade - communicate the feeling of a good one?
I like star promenades and frequently call contras and squares that include that figure.
I watching these for some time I frequently see something a little different.
Often the dance leaves the ladies (assuming the gents are the ones doing the allemands) in
a spot a little distance from where they need to be for the gents to connect with them.
This leads to reaching or mild scrambling to make that connection. I have not noticed
ladies starting across the set - but would rather see them step toward the gent as he
approaches.
This is not unlike another pet peeve of mine - where the corners in contra corners just
stand there with their left hand in the air (sometime even instructed to do so by the
caller). This forces the active couple to almost chase them around.
Dancers who become momentarily inactive need to be aware of their upcoming role and put
themselves back into the action in the proper place and space rather than making the dance
come to them - and when they do it is more enjoyable for everyone.
Mac
________________________________
From: Marlin Whitaker <marlinw(a)gmail.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2012 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Star Promenade - communicate the feeling of a good one?
What Amy said. Hear, hear.
It is very unpleasant to arrive at the spot where I am supposed to meet
a lady to start a star promenade but find her already part way across
the set, so I have to chase her to try to catch up with her. Usually
that happens in time for the butterfly whirl, but that's too late to
have the "satisfying, connected" star promenade that Alan is looking for.
-- Marlin
On 02/08/2012 12:55 PM, Amy Cann wrote:
Hmmm. I agree with everything below except for:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
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As to the star promenade/butterfly whirl, the
non-allemander* should be
moving before the person he/she is going to promenade
with gets there. *
This may be true in some cases, but I think the caller needs to be careful
here - I would choose
"be ready to be swept up" instead.
I have very clear memories of dancing the inside part of a star promenade
and having a VERY unsatisfying time of it, just like in the original post.
The main problem? The outsides kept "helping" me by starting to walk round
the star before I got there and really latched on.
It didn't feel like a mini, gentle, star-shaped game of crack-the-whip, it
felt like a bunch of outsides promenading around a little track while the
insides trotted to catch up, their inner hands hooked together in a tangle
that had no functional purpose.
Bleh.
The ones that felt the best were the ones that waited until my arm was
truly around their waist, and then *hung back a little* .
When dancing the outside, it felt to me that "giving weight behind myself"
made it work best.
Just my two cents.
Oh, and BTW:
calling Amy Cann's "Sweet Music"
(*great* dance),
Nope. :)
I mean, yep, it is a great dance, but --
Amy Kahn, rhymes with "John", lives in western NY and wrote the dance
"Sweet Music".
Amy Cann, rhymes with "Dan", lives in Vermont and wrote the tune
"Catharsis" and the dance "High Five."
Cheers,
Amy
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12 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing -
Amy Cann -
Bill Baritompa -
Bob Green -
Charles Hannum -
Donald Perley -
George Mercer -
Marlin Whitaker -
Martha Edwards -
Richard Mckeever