17 Jan
2013
17 Jan
'13
7:05 p.m.
You know, I just realized, regarding the "sidelines" discussion ... no
one's yet mentioned "booking ahead". In the context of
getting-new-dancers-partners, I thought it might deserve its own thread.
Simply put: Booking ahead is a big threat to including new and/or
infrequent dancers.
When I was a newer dancer, and finally getting known as a fun dance partner
with enough people, there was the inevitable "I want to dance with all my
friends!" tendency that most newer dancers get. I booked ahead, sometimes
two dances ahead. I never booked *all* of my dances for the night, and I
did seek out and dance with people I didn't normally, on a regular basis.
Still, once I reflected upon it, it limited my dance partners somewhat.
I cut down to only booking "next dance". Then I cut down the number of
times in a night that I do that. Now, I will never book ahead as a rule,
but allow exceptions, usually for out-of-towners that I don't get to see
often, or a dancer that I simply haven't had the chance to dance with for
several weeks. I've found that I don't sit out any more often, I'm still
dancing with friends for about half my dances in the evening, and I'm
having just as much fun. At the same time, I don't have to worry about
remembering who I booked, nor about offending anyone by, "Sorry, got the
next one booked already!"
Nowadays, I'm a pretty okay dancer. And there are some dances I can walk
into, and people are super-friendly and I have no problem finding a
partner. Yeah, me being a kilt-wearing, name-button-sporting dancer with
decent dance shoes usually is an extra tip-off to people, too, in the same
way that if I saw a lady walk in that I didn't know, but she was wearing a
big multi-colored twirly shirt and dance shoes, I'd probably assume she
would be a good dance partner.
But... there are dances where it's difficult to find partners if you don't
know anyone. And then for introverts (which makes up a surprisingly high
percentage of the contra dance community), it's an even more difficult
task. When a dance finishes, and you blink, and everyone's partnered and
lined up within 30 seconds ... you know it. People have to be booking
ahead.
Frankly, booking ahead can be viewed by new dancers as unfriendly behavior.
At the head of my list of dance values is that contra is meant to be a
community dance. I believe that booking ahead, more than a few times in an
evening, is contradictory to this primary value.
If I had to speculate, I would hypothesize:
1. Dance organizers are very aware of who does this at their dances,
already.
2. Dance organizers are afraid to speak up about it, because they're afraid
of scaring off their "cool, hip dancers".
3. This can't possibly be a new problem. Haven't there been good solutions
to this in the past? Haven't there been dances that have realized they're
exclusive, and wanted to change, and successfully done so? What approaches
have they taken that are successful?
4. A dance community has to *want* to change this. They need to state
"inclusion of new dancers" as a value that they hold high.
I don't have a solution, but I do think that this ought to be a priority
discussion with dance organizers and callers.
Also, I'm optimistic that even one good dancer changing their behavior, and
clearly stating *why* they stop booking ahead, can have a strong influence
on other dancers. It was a couple of other dancers stating that they
stopped booking ahead at all that made me really reconsider my own booking
ahead; when I tell people that I don't book ahead, I have had some good
discussions stem from it, and I think I may have influenced a dancer or two
in that they can tone down how often they book ahead.
In dance,
Ron
http://contradances.tumblr.com
17 Jan
17 Jan
7:34 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
Thanks, Ron, for bringing up a different aspect of this issue.
I don't book ahead, either, and mostly dance in communities where it is
quite common to do so.
I've noticed that when there are large gender disparities, some people
still end up dancing every dance with somebody of their preferred gender,
while the same few people end up without partners consistently. Callers
and organizers often, in my community at least, stress to new dancers that
they should partner with a different person every time, and that they
should feel free to ask anybody and everybody to dance, etc. I don't think
this approach is the right one.
When there is a gender disparity at a dance where most dancers prefer to
dance with somebody of the opposite gender, there is a math problem. Some
people will have to sit out dances or dance with people of their own gender
throughout the night. Often, those people tend to be the people who do not
book ahead and are less competitive about immediately finding partners. I
do not think our solutions as callers and organizers should be aimed at
those people. Instead, I think we should aim any solutions at the people
who dance with those of the opposite gender every single dance, and do not
sit out the entire night. Those are the people who are most competitive
about partnering and book ahead the most.
So when I see large gender disparities, as a dancer, I personally ask my
male friends who book ahead and are the cool, hip, dancers to dance (that
is, if there are more men than women, which is common in my local dance).
Or I even see if they'd like to sit out and chat with me for a dance or
two. In my view, there should be an even distribution of people who sit
out or dance with somebody who is not of their preferred gender to dance
with. The way to do that is to target the people who are dancing every
dance with somebody of the opposite gender, not to target the people who
might be more community-oriented and are less competitive about partnering.
I know it's a bit awkward as a caller or organizer to ask certain dancers
not to dance a dance, or something along those lines. I do think it's ok
to point out to the crowd that, look, there's more men here than there are
women (or vice versa), so, if you've danced every dance so far with a
woman, try to dance one of the next couple with a man. But whatever the
caller does, I don't think it's productive to say things that imply that
it's the fault of the dancers who are community-minded enough to sit out a
dance that they should be the ones getting more competitive about finding
partners. Targeting comments only at the newcomers' session makes no sense
to me. In the dances I've been at, it's the experienced, popular dancers
who are not being community-minded and book ahead all of their dances with
people of their preferred gender, not the newcomers.
-Dave
On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Ron T Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote:
You know, I just realized, regarding the
"sidelines" discussion ... no
one's yet mentioned "booking ahead". In the context of
getting-new-dancers-partners, I thought it might deserve its own thread.
Simply put: Booking ahead is a big threat to including new and/or
infrequent dancers.
When I was a newer dancer, and finally getting known as a fun dance partner
with enough people, there was the inevitable "I want to dance with all my
friends!" tendency that most newer dancers get. I booked ahead, sometimes
two dances ahead. I never booked *all* of my dances for the night, and I
did seek out and dance with people I didn't normally, on a regular basis.
Still, once I reflected upon it, it limited my dance partners somewhat.
I cut down to only booking "next dance". Then I cut down the number of
times in a night that I do that. Now, I will never book ahead as a rule,
but allow exceptions, usually for out-of-towners that I don't get to see
often, or a dancer that I simply haven't had the chance to dance with for
several weeks. I've found that I don't sit out any more often, I'm still
dancing with friends for about half my dances in the evening, and I'm
having just as much fun. At the same time, I don't have to worry about
remembering who I booked, nor about offending anyone by, "Sorry, got the
next one booked already!"
Nowadays, I'm a pretty okay dancer. And there are some dances I can walk
into, and people are super-friendly and I have no problem finding a
partner. Yeah, me being a kilt-wearing, name-button-sporting dancer with
decent dance shoes usually is an extra tip-off to people, too, in the same
way that if I saw a lady walk in that I didn't know, but she was wearing a
big multi-colored twirly shirt and dance shoes, I'd probably assume she
would be a good dance partner.
But... there are dances where it's difficult to find partners if you don't
know anyone. And then for introverts (which makes up a surprisingly high
percentage of the contra dance community), it's an even more difficult
task. When a dance finishes, and you blink, and everyone's partnered and
lined up within 30 seconds ... you know it. People have to be booking
ahead.
Frankly, booking ahead can be viewed by new dancers as unfriendly behavior.
At the head of my list of dance values is that contra is meant to be a
community dance. I believe that booking ahead, more than a few times in an
evening, is contradictory to this primary value.
If I had to speculate, I would hypothesize:
1. Dance organizers are very aware of who does this at their dances,
already.
2. Dance organizers are afraid to speak up about it, because they're afraid
of scaring off their "cool, hip dancers".
3. This can't possibly be a new problem. Haven't there been good solutions
to this in the past? Haven't there been dances that have realized they're
exclusive, and wanted to change, and successfully done so? What approaches
have they taken that are successful?
4. A dance community has to *want* to change this. They need to state
"inclusion of new dancers" as a value that they hold high.
I don't have a solution, but I do think that this ought to be a priority
discussion with dance organizers and callers.
Also, I'm optimistic that even one good dancer changing their behavior, and
clearly stating *why* they stop booking ahead, can have a strong influence
on other dancers. It was a couple of other dancers stating that they
stopped booking ahead at all that made me really reconsider my own booking
ahead; when I tell people that I don't book ahead, I have had some good
discussions stem from it, and I think I may have influenced a dancer or two
in that they can tone down how often they book ahead.
In dance,
Ron
http://contradances.tumblr.com
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
--
David Casserly
(cell) 781 258-2761
7:41 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
On 1/17/2013 11:34 AM, Dave Casserly wrote:
Instead, I think we should aim any solutions at the
people
who dance with those of the opposite gender every single dance, and do not
sit out the entire night. Those are the people who are most competitive
about partnering and book ahead the most.
Not necessarily. They could equally well be known to be superb dancers
and enjoyable partners who simply get asked to dance very quickly, and
never feel a need to book ahead.
Kalia
7:56 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
Could be true! But in any event, that doesn't undermine my point-- those
dancers, whether they book ahead or are just superb partners who get asked
to dance very quickly, should shoulder some of the load of gender
disparities by dancing with people of the same gender or sitting a dance or
two out on those nights.
On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Kalia Kliban <kalia(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 1/17/2013 11:34 AM, Dave Casserly wrote:
--
David Casserly
(cell) 781 258-2761
Instead, I think we should aim any solutions at
the people
who dance with those of the opposite gender every single dance, and do not
sit out the entire night. Those are the people who are most competitive
about partnering and book ahead the most.
Not necessarily. They could equally well be known to be superb dancers
and enjoyable partners who simply get asked to dance very quickly, and
never feel a need to book ahead.
Kalia
______________________________**_________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/**mailman/listinfo/callers<http://www.shared…
8:04 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
I agree, Dave.
It's interesting, I have seen the REALLY cool hip male dancers dance together when
there is a gender imbalance just for that reason. I'm talking about too many females
dancers. yes. the really cool hip dancers are those that get community as well as good
dance etiquette along with good technique, style, rhythm and timing.
Laurie P
West MI
~
When I dance, I cannot judge, I cannot hate, I cannot separate myself from life. I can
only be joyful and whole, that is why I dance. ~Hans Bos~
~
________________________________
From: Dave Casserly <david.j.casserly(a)gmail.com>
To: kalia(a)sbcglobal.net; Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
Could be true! But in any event, that doesn't undermine my point-- those
dancers, whether they book ahead or are just superb partners who get asked
to dance very quickly, should shoulder some of the load of gender
disparities by dancing with people of the same gender or sitting a dance or
two out on those nights.
On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Kalia Kliban <kalia(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 1/17/2013 11:34 AM, Dave Casserly wrote:
--
David Casserly
(cell) 781 258-2761
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
Instead, I think we should aim any solutions at
the people
who dance with those of the opposite gender every single dance, and do not
sit out the entire night. Those are the people who are most competitive
about partnering and book ahead the most.
Not necessarily. They could equally well be known to be superb dancers
and enjoyable partners who simply get asked to dance very quickly, and
never feel a need to book ahead.
Kalia
______________________________**_________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/**mailman/listinfo/callers<http://www.shared…
18 Jan
18 Jan
3:48 a.m.
On Thu, Jan 17, 2013, Kalia Kliban wrote:
On 1/17/2013 11:34 AM, Dave Casserly wrote:
You have a point, but my perception is that your "equally well" is wrong.
That is, when there's a large gender disparity, the people doing almost
every dance with the opposite gender are more likely to be booking ahead.
(Note that I don't have any recent experience because the dances I've
been to in the last couple of years have been mostly gender-balenced.)
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
Instead, I think we should aim any solutions at the people
who dance with those of the opposite gender every single dance, and do not
sit out the entire night. Those are the people who are most competitive
about partnering and book ahead the most.
Not necessarily. They could equally well be known to be superb
dancers and enjoyable partners who simply get asked to dance very
quickly, and never feel a need to book ahead. 
17 Jan
17 Jan
7:47 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
And thanks, Dave, for adding such good points to the discussion!
I might add that Dave was one of the first Board members of BIDA
(Boston Intergenerational Dance Advocates), a group that has done an
amazing job of promoting various community aspects at their monthly
dance. I encourage folks to look at their web site. It is amazing what
a group can accomplish when they have common goals and objectives!
http://bidadance.org/faq.html
Linda
On Jan 17, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Dave Casserly wrote:
Thanks, Ron, for bringing up a different aspect of
this issue.
I don't book ahead, either, and mostly dance in communities where it
is
quite common to do so.
I've noticed that when there are large gender disparities, some people
still end up dancing every dance with somebody of their preferred
gender,
while the same few people end up without partners consistently.
Callers
and organizers often, in my community at least, stress to new
dancers that
they should partner with a different person every time, and that they
should feel free to ask anybody and everybody to dance, etc. I
don't think
this approach is the right one.
When there is a gender disparity at a dance where most dancers
prefer to
dance with somebody of the opposite gender, there is a math
problem. Some
people will have to sit out dances or dance with people of their own
gender
throughout the night. Often, those people tend to be the people who
do not
book ahead and are less competitive about immediately finding
partners. I
do not think our solutions as callers and organizers should be aimed
at
those people. Instead, I think we should aim any solutions at the
people
who dance with those of the opposite gender every single dance, and
do not
sit out the entire night. Those are the people who are most
competitive
about partnering and book ahead the most.
So when I see large gender disparities, as a dancer, I personally
ask my
male friends who book ahead and are the cool, hip, dancers to dance
(that
is, if there are more men than women, which is common in my local
dance).
Or I even see if they'd like to sit out and chat with me for a dance
or
two. In my view, there should be an even distribution of people who
sit
out or dance with somebody who is not of their preferred gender to
dance
with. The way to do that is to target the people who are dancing
every
dance with somebody of the opposite gender, not to target the people
who
might be more community-oriented and are less competitive about
partnering.
I know it's a bit awkward as a caller or organizer to ask certain
dancers
not to dance a dance, or something along those lines. I do think
it's ok
to point out to the crowd that, look, there's more men here than
there are
women (or vice versa), so, if you've danced every dance so far with a
woman, try to dance one of the next couple with a man. But whatever
the
caller does, I don't think it's productive to say things that imply
that
it's the fault of the dancers who are community-minded enough to sit
out a
dance that they should be the ones getting more competitive about
finding
partners. Targeting comments only at the newcomers' session makes
no sense
to me. In the dances I've been at, it's the experienced, popular
dancers
who are not being community-minded and book ahead all of their
dances with
people of their preferred gender, not the newcomers.
-Dave
On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Ron T Blechner
<contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote:
You know, I just realized, regarding the
"sidelines" discussion ...
no
one's yet mentioned "booking ahead". In the context of
getting-new-dancers-partners, I thought it might deserve its own
thread.
Simply put: Booking ahead is a big threat to including new and/or
infrequent dancers.
When I was a newer dancer, and finally getting known as a fun dance
partner
with enough people, there was the inevitable "I want to dance with
all my
friends!" tendency that most newer dancers get. I booked ahead,
sometimes
two dances ahead. I never booked *all* of my dances for the night,
and I
did seek out and dance with people I didn't normally, on a regular
basis.
Still, once I reflected upon it, it limited my dance partners
somewhat.
I cut down to only booking "next dance". Then I cut down the number
of
times in a night that I do that. Now, I will never book ahead as a
rule,
but allow exceptions, usually for out-of-towners that I don't get
to see
often, or a dancer that I simply haven't had the chance to dance
with for
several weeks. I've found that I don't sit out any more often, I'm
still
dancing with friends for about half my dances in the evening, and I'm
having just as much fun. At the same time, I don't have to worry
about
remembering who I booked, nor about offending anyone by, "Sorry,
got the
next one booked already!"
Nowadays, I'm a pretty okay dancer. And there are some dances I can
walk
into, and people are super-friendly and I have no problem finding a
partner. Yeah, me being a kilt-wearing, name-button-sporting dancer
with
decent dance shoes usually is an extra tip-off to people, too, in
the same
way that if I saw a lady walk in that I didn't know, but she was
wearing a
big multi-colored twirly shirt and dance shoes, I'd probably assume
she
would be a good dance partner.
But... there are dances where it's difficult to find partners if
you don't
know anyone. And then for introverts (which makes up a surprisingly
high
percentage of the contra dance community), it's an even more
difficult
task. When a dance finishes, and you blink, and everyone's
partnered and
lined up within 30 seconds ... you know it. People have to be booking
ahead.
Frankly, booking ahead can be viewed by new dancers as unfriendly
behavior.
At the head of my list of dance values is that contra is meant to
be a
community dance. I believe that booking ahead, more than a few
times in an
evening, is contradictory to this primary value.
If I had to speculate, I would hypothesize:
1. Dance organizers are very aware of who does this at their dances,
already.
2. Dance organizers are afraid to speak up about it, because
they're afraid
of scaring off their "cool, hip dancers".
3. This can't possibly be a new problem. Haven't there been good
solutions
to this in the past? Haven't there been dances that have realized
they're
exclusive, and wanted to change, and successfully done so? What
approaches
have they taken that are successful?
4. A dance community has to *want* to change this. They need to state
"inclusion of new dancers" as a value that they hold high.
I don't have a solution, but I do think that this ought to be a
priority
discussion with dance organizers and callers.
Also, I'm optimistic that even one good dancer changing their
behavior, and
clearly stating *why* they stop booking ahead, can have a strong
influence
on other dancers. It was a couple of other dancers stating that they
stopped booking ahead at all that made me really reconsider my own
booking
ahead; when I tell people that I don't book ahead, I have had some
good
discussions stem from it, and I think I may have influenced a
dancer or two
in that they can tone down how often they book ahead.
In dance,
Ron
http://contradances.tumblr.com
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
--
David Casserly
(cell) 781 258-2761
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers 
8:52 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
Ron wrote:
Simply put: Booking ahead is a big threat to including
new and/or
infrequent dancers.
No, actually. Booking ahead is not inherently a destructive thing. It
depends upon the purpose of the booker. Booking ahead can be a way of
securing a dance with a first-timer who might, otherwise, be preyed upon by
"icky" guys who favor young, innocent first-timers who are attractive...for
various reasons. For example: A young woman may have learned to swing
incorrectly which brings her into particularly intimate contact with every
gent who swings her. This woman may be "descended upon" by a few
"icky"
guys who perceive this intimate contact as something the newcomer actually
enjoys when, really, she would love to learn that there are other ways to
swing that are less intrusive.
Booking ahead may be the only way to get a dance with this woman to show
her a more comfortable swing position. Yes, I have done this, and the
women always seem relieved to learn that this is not a "normal" sort of
contact at a contra dance. If I did not book a dance with such a woman she
might leave the dance early deciding that the dance is "much too intimate
and familiar" for her tastes.
There are other valid reasons to book ahead and they can be in support of a
generous and wonderful dance community. It might be true to say that
"excessive booking ahead" should be avoided. I book ahead only rarely, but
when I do most of the time it is with newcomers I want to encourage.
It is good to see that many folks book ahead so rarely. It is worth noting
that someone who *always *books ahead will probably *never *have the
pleasure of dancing with these folks. The dedicated bookers and dedicated
non-bookers occupy different partnering dimensions and almost *never *dance
together.
- Greg McKenzie
8:55 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
There's magic in not knowing who you're going to be dancing with next.
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Greg McKenzie <grekenzie(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Ron wrote:
Simply put: Booking ahead is a big threat to
including new and/or
infrequent dancers.
No, actually. Booking ahead is not inherently a destructive thing. It
depends upon the purpose of the booker. Booking ahead can be a way of
securing a dance with a first-timer who might, otherwise, be preyed upon by
"icky" guys who favor young, innocent first-timers who are attractive...for
various reasons. For example: A young woman may have learned to swing
incorrectly which brings her into particularly intimate contact with every
gent who swings her. This woman may be "descended upon" by a few
"icky"
guys who perceive this intimate contact as something the newcomer actually
enjoys when, really, she would love to learn that there are other ways to
swing that are less intrusive.
Booking ahead may be the only way to get a dance with this woman to show
her a more comfortable swing position. Yes, I have done this, and the
women always seem relieved to learn that this is not a "normal" sort of
contact at a contra dance. If I did not book a dance with such a woman she
might leave the dance early deciding that the dance is "much too intimate
and familiar" for her tastes.
There are other valid reasons to book ahead and they can be in support of a
generous and wonderful dance community. It might be true to say that
"excessive booking ahead" should be avoided. I book ahead only rarely, but
when I do most of the time it is with newcomers I want to encourage.
It is good to see that many folks book ahead so rarely. It is worth noting
that someone who *always *books ahead will probably *never *have the
pleasure of dancing with these folks. The dedicated bookers and dedicated
non-bookers occupy different partnering dimensions and almost *never *dance
together.
- Greg McKenzie
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
9:33 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
Kalia: Not necessarily, but ... in my experience, seriously ... yeah, it's
mostly booking ahead.
Dave: The coolest, hippest dancers I know are the ones who enjoy dancing
either role with either gender - at least sometimes. (Not to mention that
dancing both roles makes you better at both.)
Linda: I have the pleasure of calling BIDA this Sunday, for the first time.
When I got an e-mail from my contact regarding BIDA's community values, I
was *very* excited.
Greg: That's an interesting argument, regarding saving the dancer from an
"icky" partner. I would retort, however, that is just a band-aid for a
larger problem that the dance community should be addressing. I think
introducing the concept of booking ahead to new dancers is a *bad* idea,
because it gives them the impression early on that it's okay. I'd rather
solve the challenge of on-boarding new people through encouraging
experienced dancers to look for them, rather than falling back on booking
them in advance. I've also noticed new people often sit out a lot, because
they're shy/tired/unsure of protocol. There's often lots of opportunities
to sit out, walk up to the person while they're sitting out, then invite
them to dance the next one. (I think there's an implicit difference between
booking the next dance with someone already dancing versus someone sitting
out.)
Lindsay: YES.
-Ron Blechner
contradances.tumblr.com
On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 3:55 PM, Lindsay Morris <lindsay(a)tsmworks.com>wrote;wrote:
There's magic in not knowing who you're going
to be dancing with next.
19 Jan
19 Jan
6:10 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
Ron wrote:
Greg: That's an interesting argument, regarding
saving the dancer from an
"icky" partner. I would retort, however, that is just a band-aid for a
larger problem that the dance community should be addressing. I think
introducing the concept of booking ahead to new dancers is a *bad* idea,
because it gives them the impression early on that it's okay. I'd rather
solve the challenge of on-boarding new people through encouraging
experienced dancers to look for them, rather than falling back on booking
them in advance. I've also noticed new people often sit out a lot, because
they're shy/tired/unsure of protocol. There's often lots of opportunities
to sit out, walk up to the person while they're sitting out, then invite
them to dance the next one. (I think there's an implicit difference between
booking the next dance with someone already dancing versus someone sitting
out.)
I agree that booking ahead is not appropriate for a newcomer's
orientation. But there are times when booking ahead can be a helpful
strategy. When there is a shortage of gents at a dance I often find my own
choices very limited as I am quickly asked to dance by women before I can
make any other choices. I have, on occasion, told women that "Sorry, I'd
like to save this dance for [a first-timer/someone who is sitting out].
Let's try to dance later."
Sometimes when I am in this situation, where I have been too-quickly
partnered, I have excused myself for a moment, walked to the sidelines, and
asked a woman to dance the NEXT dance.
I do not favor putting any pressure on the dancers to address a "problem"
on the dance floor by altering their partnering behavior. I feel this is
too heavy-handed and implicitly blames the dancers. As a caller I feel
strongly that I should take responsibility for all of these uncomfortable
situations and allow the dancers to enjoy themselves.
My approach is to assume the best of the dancers and allow them to take the
initiative and rise to the occasion. I assume that all dancers at an open,
public contra dance are attracted to that venue--at least in part--by the
prospect of dancing with lots of folks new to them personally and new to
dancing contras. As a caller it is my responsibility to make that process
both easy and fun for them.
My experience is that this assumption always pays off. I am not saying it
works perfectly every time. I am saying that giving the dancers the
benefit of the doubt pays off in both the long, and the short term. The
dancers do pick up on the caller's opinion of them. There is no way a
caller can conceal their opinion of the dancers for long. Everything the
caller says and does--or does *not *say or does *not *do--will telegraph
their personal framing of the dancers.
If I, as a caller, chide the dancers to ask newcomers to dance, or chide
them to dance with sidelined dancers, I am implicitly demonstrating that I
do not have confidence in them to do what is needed to make the dance event
a great success. I am telegraphing my "selfish dancer" frame. If, on the
other hand, I assume their complete support in my efforts to create an
exceptional event populated by wonderful people I will be telegraphing a
different frame.
The truth, however, is that none of us is perfect. All of us are
"works-in-progress" and we will make mistakes. That is why it is so
important for the caller to be able to apologize. I apologize at least
once or twice at every event I call...usually more. This is how we, as
callers, can show our own humanity and give more credit to the dancers.
When we show the dancers our confidence in them it pays off. This is
leadership.
So I don't condemn any dancer for booking ahead. I make the basic
assumption that they are competent and knowledgeable enough to make the
partnering decisions that will be best for the community as a whole. In
most cases this is correct. The dancers know--far better than I--what the
history of specific individuals is and even, perhaps, who *should *be
sidelined. I assume that all of us are working to create a "wonderful
dance community" and do my part to make that process easy and fun. If that
doesn't work out, and something goes wrong, then I apologize.
- Greg McKenzie
21 Jan
21 Jan
2:42 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
Greg,
For the dances where this is true, that's great. I have attended dances
where that's the value of the community, and I love dance organizations and
communities who foster that.
I've also been to a lot of dances where a specific culture of "we're here
to dance with a lot of people" is not the default case. That is, in fact,
the reason I brought up the "booking ahead" problem in the first place; I
recognize that there are exceptions, and you've pointed some out, but by
and large:
** Booking ahead is done because people want to dance with a small subset
of dancers who are their friends / the "cool, hip dancers" / etc. **
So I don't, as a caller, make the assumption that you present. Instead, I
believe that unless a dance specifically fosters a new-dancer-friendly,
inclusive environment, and goes out of its way to post signs / e-mails /
promote discussion with callers / etc, dancers will generally see a narrow
view of what's going on at the dance. It's up to organizers and callers, I
believe, to specifically shape the dance to a friendly environment ...
... if that's the dance's goal.
in dance,
Ron
On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Greg McKenzie <grekenzie(a)gmail.com> wrote:
My approach is to assume the best of the dancers and allow them to take the
initiative and rise to the occasion. I assume that all dancers at an open,
public contra dance are attracted to that venue--at least in part--by the
prospect of dancing with lots of folks new to them personally and new to
dancing contras. As a caller it is my responsibility to make that process
both easy and fun for them.
My experience is that this assumption always pays off. I am not saying it
works perfectly every time.
5:05 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
An especially frustrating manifestation of booking ahead, in my mind, is
the mid-dance book-ahead with someone you're not already sure is interested
in dancing with you. I feel like it deserves a special mention just because
I personally find it very difficult and flustering to have to decline
someone or formulate any coherent response in the middle of a swing, say,
and so I usually just agree, and sometimes end up dancing with people that
I would rather not be dancing with.
Which brings me to another point I've been wondering about: exactly how
much freedom does a dancer have to decline dance offers (assuming
non-booking-ahead)? Part of me feels that a pillar of contra is the
knowledge that you don't get turned down, and that anyone can dance with
anyone. But I feel very strongly that no one should have to dance with
someone who makes them uncomfortable. However, there's some sort of
confusing grey area in between. There are people I'd rather not dance with
because they make me acutely uncomfortable... and there are those that make
me slightly uncomfortable... there are those I find flashy and annoying, or
those whose swinging styles really don't fit with mine... You get the idea.
Not to seem like I don't want to dance with anyone but my friends--this
isn't the case--but I've always wondered just how much license the dancer
gets to choose their own partners, rather than accepting the first offer
that comes up. What are people's thoughts?
Maia
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Ron T Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Greg,
For the dances where this is true, that's great. I have attended dances
where that's the value of the community, and I love dance organizations and
communities who foster that.
I've also been to a lot of dances where a specific culture of "we're here
to dance with a lot of people" is not the default case. That is, in fact,
the reason I brought up the "booking ahead" problem in the first place; I
recognize that there are exceptions, and you've pointed some out, but by
and large:
** Booking ahead is done because people want to dance with a small subset
of dancers who are their friends / the "cool, hip dancers" / etc. **
So I don't, as a caller, make the assumption that you present. Instead, I
believe that unless a dance specifically fosters a new-dancer-friendly,
inclusive environment, and goes out of its way to post signs / e-mails /
promote discussion with callers / etc, dancers will generally see a narrow
view of what's going on at the dance. It's up to organizers and callers, I
believe, to specifically shape the dance to a friendly environment ...
... if that's the dance's goal.
in dance,
Ron
On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Greg McKenzie <grekenzie(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
My approach is to assume the best of the dancers and allow them to take
the
initiative and rise to the occasion. I assume
that all dancers at an
open,
public contra dance are attracted to that
venue--at least in part--by the
prospect of dancing with lots of folks new to them personally and new to
dancing contras. As a caller it is my responsibility to make that
process
both easy and fun for them.
My experience is that this assumption always pays off. I am not saying
it
works perfectly every time.
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
5:33 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
As I have heard others say, everyone has the freedom to decline a dance with anybody they
want, and no explanation is necessary, other than a polite "no thank you".
Perry
________________________________
From: Maia McCormick <maia.mcc(a)gmail.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
An especially frustrating manifestation of booking ahead, in my mind, is
the mid-dance book-ahead with someone you're not already sure is interested
in dancing with you. I feel like it deserves a special mention just because
I personally find it very difficult and flustering to have to decline
someone or formulate any coherent response in the middle of a swing, say,
and so I usually just agree, and sometimes end up dancing with people that
I would rather not be dancing with.
Which brings me to another point I've been wondering about: exactly how
much freedom does a dancer have to decline dance offers (assuming
non-booking-ahead)? Part of me feels that a pillar of contra is the
knowledge that you don't get turned down, and that anyone can dance with
anyone. But I feel very strongly that no one should have to dance with
someone who makes them uncomfortable. However, there's some sort of
confusing grey area in between. There are people I'd rather not dance with
because they make me acutely uncomfortable... and there are those that make
me slightly uncomfortable... there are those I find flashy and annoying, or
those whose swinging styles really don't fit with mine... You get the idea.
Not to seem like I don't want to dance with anyone but my friends--this
isn't the case--but I've always wondered just how much license the dancer
gets to choose their own partners, rather than accepting the first offer
that comes up. What are people's thoughts?
Maia
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Ron T Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Greg,
For the dances where this is true, that's great. I have attended dances
where that's the value of the community, and I love dance organizations and
communities who foster that.
I've also been to a lot of dances where a specific culture of "we're here
to dance with a lot of people" is not the default case. That is, in fact,
the reason I brought up the "booking ahead" problem in the first place; I
recognize that there are exceptions, and you've pointed some out, but by
and large:
** Booking ahead is done because people want to dance with a small subset
of dancers who are their friends / the "cool, hip dancers" / etc. **
So I don't, as a caller, make the assumption that you present. Instead, I
believe that unless a dance specifically fosters a new-dancer-friendly,
inclusive environment, and goes out of its way to post signs / e-mails /
promote discussion with callers / etc, dancers will generally see a narrow
view of what's going on at the dance. It's up to organizers and callers, I
believe, to specifically shape the dance to a friendly environment ...
... if that's the dance's goal.
in dance,
Ron
On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Greg McKenzie <grekenzie(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
My approach is to assume the best of the dancers and allow them to take
the
initiative and rise to the occasion. I assume
that all dancers at an
open,
public contra dance are attracted to that
venue--at least in part--by the
prospect of dancing with lots of folks new to them personally and new to
dancing contras. As a caller it is my responsibility to make that
process
both easy and fun for them.
My experience is that this assumption always pays off. I am not saying
it
works perfectly every time.
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
5:39 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
I second what Perry said. Every introductory session I teach, I try to
emphasize to beginners that they may say no to anybody, for any reason, and
all it requires is a simple "no thank you."
I don't generally think booking dances ahead is rude. But I think booking
dances in the middle of a line, instead of paying attention to your current
partner and dance, is. There might be discreet ways of doing so with
people you know very well, but asking a question and expecting an answer
during a 4 second allemande or swing seems like it is pretty likely to
bleed into the next move.
-Dave
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Perry Shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
As I have heard others say, everyone has the freedom
to decline a dance
with anybody they want, and no explanation is necessary, other than a
polite "no thank you".
Perry
________________________________
From: Maia McCormick <maia.mcc(a)gmail.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about
sidelines)
An especially frustrating manifestation of booking ahead, in my mind, is
the mid-dance book-ahead with someone you're not already sure is interested
in dancing with you. I feel like it deserves a special mention just because
I personally find it very difficult and flustering to have to decline
someone or formulate any coherent response in the middle of a swing, say,
and so I usually just agree, and sometimes end up dancing with people that
I would rather not be dancing with.
Which brings me to another point I've been wondering about: exactly how
much freedom does a dancer have to decline dance offers (assuming
non-booking-ahead)? Part of me feels that a pillar of contra is the
knowledge that you don't get turned down, and that anyone can dance with
anyone. But I feel very strongly that no one should have to dance with
someone who makes them uncomfortable. However, there's some sort of
confusing grey area in between. There are people I'd rather not dance with
because they make me acutely uncomfortable... and there are those that make
me slightly uncomfortable... there are those I find flashy and annoying, or
those whose swinging styles really don't fit with mine... You get the idea.
Not to seem like I don't want to dance with anyone but my friends--this
isn't the case--but I've always wondered just how much license the dancer
gets to choose their own partners, rather than accepting the first offer
that comes up. What are people's thoughts?
Maia
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Ron T Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
--
David Casserly
(cell) 781 258-2761
Greg,
For the dances where this is true, that's great. I have attended dances
where that's the value of the community, and I love dance organizations
and
communities who foster that.
I've also been to a lot of dances where a specific culture of "we're here
to dance with a lot of people" is not the default case. That is, in fact,
the reason I brought up the "booking ahead" problem in the first place; I
recognize that there are exceptions, and you've pointed some out, but by
and large:
** Booking ahead is done because people want to dance with a small subset
of dancers who are their friends / the "cool, hip dancers" / etc. **
So I don't, as a caller, make the assumption that you present. Instead,
I
believe that unless a dance specifically fosters
a new-dancer-friendly,
inclusive environment, and goes out of its way to post signs / e-mails /
promote discussion with callers / etc, dancers will generally see a
narrow
view of what's going on at the dance.
It's up to organizers and callers,
I
believe, to specifically shape the dance to a
friendly environment ...
... if that's the dance's goal.
in dance,
Ron
On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Greg McKenzie <grekenzie(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
the
My approach is to assume the best of the dancers and allow them to take
the
initiative and rise to the occasion. I assume
that all dancers at an
open,
> public contra dance are attracted to that venue--at least in part--by > prospect of dancing with lots of folks new
to them personally and new
to
dancing
contras. As a caller it is my responsibility to make that
process
both easy and fun for them.
My experience is that this assumption always pays off. I am not saying
it
works perfectly every time.
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
6 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
I think George Marshall handles the issue of declining partners very
tactfully by encouraging leads to accept rejections with grace, thereby
implying that it's ok to decline, rather than by directly encouraging
people to decline. I think this allows everyone involved to feel like
they're doing their part in the community, even when they're the ones
getting turned down.
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Perry Shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
As I have heard others say, everyone has the freedom
to decline a dance
with anybody they want, and no explanation is necessary, other than a
polite "no thank you".
Perry
________________________________
From: Maia McCormick <maia.mcc(a)gmail.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about
sidelines)
An especially frustrating manifestation of booking ahead, in my mind, is
the mid-dance book-ahead with someone you're not already sure is interested
in dancing with you. I feel like it deserves a special mention just because
I personally find it very difficult and flustering to have to decline
someone or formulate any coherent response in the middle of a swing, say,
and so I usually just agree, and sometimes end up dancing with people that
I would rather not be dancing with.
Which brings me to another point I've been wondering about: exactly how
much freedom does a dancer have to decline dance offers (assuming
non-booking-ahead)? Part of me feels that a pillar of contra is the
knowledge that you don't get turned down, and that anyone can dance with
anyone. But I feel very strongly that no one should have to dance with
someone who makes them uncomfortable. However, there's some sort of
confusing grey area in between. There are people I'd rather not dance with
because they make me acutely uncomfortable... and there are those that make
me slightly uncomfortable... there are those I find flashy and annoying, or
those whose swinging styles really don't fit with mine... You get the idea.
Not to seem like I don't want to dance with anyone but my friends--this
isn't the case--but I've always wondered just how much license the dancer
gets to choose their own partners, rather than accepting the first offer
that comes up. What are people's thoughts?
Maia
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Ron T Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
Greg,
For the dances where this is true, that's great. I have attended dances
where that's the value of the community, and I love dance organizations
and
communities who foster that.
I've also been to a lot of dances where a specific culture of "we're here
to dance with a lot of people" is not the default case. That is, in fact,
the reason I brought up the "booking ahead" problem in the first place; I
recognize that there are exceptions, and you've pointed some out, but by
and large:
** Booking ahead is done because people want to dance with a small subset
of dancers who are their friends / the "cool, hip dancers" / etc. **
So I don't, as a caller, make the assumption that you present. Instead,
I
believe that unless a dance specifically fosters
a new-dancer-friendly,
inclusive environment, and goes out of its way to post signs / e-mails /
promote discussion with callers / etc, dancers will generally see a
narrow
view of what's going on at the dance.
It's up to organizers and callers,
I
believe, to specifically shape the dance to a
friendly environment ...
... if that's the dance's goal.
in dance,
Ron
On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Greg McKenzie <grekenzie(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
the
My approach is to assume the best of the dancers and allow them to take
the
initiative and rise to the occasion. I assume
that all dancers at an
open,
> public contra dance are attracted to that venue--at least in part--by > prospect of dancing with lots of folks new
to them personally and new
to
dancing
contras. As a caller it is my responsibility to make that
process
both easy and fun for them.
My experience is that this assumption always pays off. I am not saying
it
works perfectly every time.
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
6:42 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
Leads? This has so many assumptions buried in it, I find it worrisome. First, that
implies that anyone leads. And that only those who dance one role will be asking. Did
you perhaps mistype? Did you mean that George encourages those who ask to accept that
they will sometimes be declined?
A
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 21, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Aaron Redfern <aaron.redfern(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I think George Marshall handles the issue of declining
partners very
tactfully by encouraging leads to accept rejections with grace, thereby
implying that it's ok to decline, rather than by directly encouraging
people to decline. I think this allows everyone involved to feel like
they're doing their part in the community, even when they're the ones
getting turned down.
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Perry Shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
As I have heard others say, everyone has the
freedom to decline a dance
with anybody they want, and no explanation is necessary, other than a
polite "no thank you".
Perry
________________________________
From: Maia McCormick <maia.mcc(a)gmail.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about
sidelines)
An especially frustrating manifestation of booking ahead, in my mind, is
the mid-dance book-ahead with someone you're not already sure is interested
in dancing with you. I feel like it deserves a special mention just because
I personally find it very difficult and flustering to have to decline
someone or formulate any coherent response in the middle of a swing, say,
and so I usually just agree, and sometimes end up dancing with people that
I would rather not be dancing with.
Which brings me to another point I've been wondering about: exactly how
much freedom does a dancer have to decline dance offers (assuming
non-booking-ahead)? Part of me feels that a pillar of contra is the
knowledge that you don't get turned down, and that anyone can dance with
anyone. But I feel very strongly that no one should have to dance with
someone who makes them uncomfortable. However, there's some sort of
confusing grey area in between. There are people I'd rather not dance with
because they make me acutely uncomfortable... and there are those that make
me slightly uncomfortable... there are those I find flashy and annoying, or
those whose swinging styles really don't fit with mine... You get the idea.
Not to seem like I don't want to dance with anyone but my friends--this
isn't the case--but I've always wondered just how much license the dancer
gets to choose their own partners, rather than accepting the first offer
that comes up. What are people's thoughts?
Maia
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Ron T Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers Greg,
For the dances where this is true, that's great. I have attended dances
where that's the value of the community, and I love dance organizations
and
communities who foster that.
I've also been to a lot of dances where a specific culture of "we're here
to dance with a lot of people" is not the default case. That is, in fact,
the reason I brought up the "booking ahead" problem in the first place; I
recognize that there are exceptions, and you've pointed some out, but by
and large:
** Booking ahead is done because people want to dance with a small subset
of dancers who are their friends / the "cool, hip dancers" / etc. **
So I don't, as a caller, make the assumption that you present. Instead,
I
believe that unless a dance specifically fosters
a new-dancer-friendly,
inclusive environment, and goes out of its way to post signs / e-mails /
promote discussion with callers / etc, dancers will generally see a
narrow
view of what's going on at the dance.
It's up to organizers and callers,
I
believe, to specifically shape the dance to a
friendly environment ...
... if that's the dance's goal.
in dance,
Ron
On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Greg McKenzie <grekenzie(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
the
My approach is to assume the best of the dancers and allow them to take
the
initiative and rise to the occasion. I assume
that all dancers at an
open,
> public contra dance are attracted to that venue--at least in part--by > prospect of dancing with lots of folks new to
them personally and new
to
dancing
contras. As a caller it is my responsibility to make that
process
both easy and fun for them.
My experience is that this assumption always pays off. I am not saying
it
works perfectly every time.
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers 
10:51 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
On 1/21/2013 9:05 AM, Maia McCormick wrote:
An especially frustrating manifestation of booking
ahead, in my mind, is
the mid-dance book-ahead with someone you're not already sure is interested
in dancing with you. I feel like it deserves a special mention just because
I personally find it very difficult and flustering to have to decline
someone or formulate any coherent response in the middle of a swing, say,
and so I usually just agree, and sometimes end up dancing with people that
I would rather not be dancing with.
The practice of booking the next dance while dancing the current one
bothers me, because it tends to lock out the people who are sitting out
this dance. (That seems like an extreme case, but I once sat out the
entire 3:00 - 4:00 am hour at a Dawn Dance because I took one dance off,
and for the subsequent four dances could not, from the sidelines, get a
partner - everybody I asked, for that whole time, had already booked. I
think the practice is rampant, but not universal, in the fireplace line
at the Scout House these days too, unless those dancers are saying "I
already have a partner" when they just mean "No, thank you.")
My suggestion to you personally, Maia, is that, knowing that you find
it flustering to deal with in the moment, you decide on a response for
the general case beforehand and mentally rehearse it. "No, thank you."
"I don't book in line." "Ask me later." "Can't hear
you". "Already
booked". Whatever you want to say to people you don't want to dance
with who ask in line - don't lie or give false hope, or you'll just have
to give the same people the same response over and over - decide in
advance, practice/visualize saying it, and you'll have the response
ready when the situation comes up.
Which brings me to another point I've been wondering about: exactly how
much freedom does a dancer have to decline dance offers (assuming
non-booking-ahead)? Part of me feels that a pillar of contra is the
knowledge that you don't get turned down, and that anyone can dance with
anyone. But I feel very strongly that no one should have to dance with
someone who makes them uncomfortable. However, there's some sort of
confusing grey area in between. There are people I'd rather not dance with
because they make me acutely uncomfortable... and there are those that make
me slightly uncomfortable... there are those I find flashy and annoying, or
those whose swinging styles really don't fit with mine... You get the idea.
Not to seem like I don't want to dance with anyone but my friends--this
isn't the case--but I've always wondered just how much license the dancer
gets to choose their own partners, rather than accepting the first offer
that comes up. What are people's thoughts?
Even if you did only want to dance with your friends, that is your
perfect right. You have complete freedom to decline any offer you don't
want to accept for whatever reason and then accept an offer you do want
to accept. You are not required to offer an explanation.
(If you say no to Joe and then yes to Jerry and Joe's paying attention,
he'll get the message that you didn't want to dance with him and his
feelings may be hurt, but that's actually his business, not yours. It
would possibly be a kindness to Joe and to the community to tell Joe
"you twirl me too much" or "I don't like to do dips" if
there's some
simple way he could alter his behavior that would let you enjoy dancing
with him, but it's not required, and just saying "No, thank you" means
you don't have to have a conversation and can each try to find other
partners.
If you only ever dance with a small subset of the people in the hall,
other people will eventually notice and have opinions - and that's still
their business, not yours.)
-- Alan
11:01 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
I speculate that if the internet existed in 1950, the contra callers' discussion list
of that time would have had a nearly identical discussion to this one.
Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217-239-5844
22 Jan
22 Jan
2:27 a.m.
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013, Alan Winston wrote:
Even if you did only want to dance with your friends, that is your
perfect right. You have complete freedom to decline any offer you
don't want to accept for whatever reason and then accept an offer you
do want to accept. You are not required to offer an explanation.
(If you say no to Joe and then yes to Jerry and Joe's paying
attention, he'll get the message that you didn't want to dance with
him and his feelings may be hurt, but that's actually his business,
not yours. It would possibly be a kindness to Joe and to the
community to tell Joe "you twirl me too much" or "I don't like to do
dips" if there's some simple way he could alter his behavior that
would let you enjoy dancing with him, but it's not required, and just
saying "No, thank you" means you don't have to have a conversation and
can each try to find other partners. If you only ever dance with a
small subset of the people in the hall, other people will eventually
notice and have opinions - and that's still their business, not
yours.)
Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with this, but how do you reconcile
what you're writing here with the meme that people "should" dance with
the newbies and the sidelined dancers?
Also, what accounts for the prevalance of the meme that one "should
never" turn down an offer to dance? (I tend to fall into this camp and
I'm not really sure where I got it from.)
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
1:32 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
On 1/21/2013 6:27 PM, Aahz Maruch quoted me:
Everyone who comes to a contra dance is
trying to engage in
enjoyment-maximizing behavior. There are usually plenty of other things
they could be doing with their Saturday night, and this thing is what
they decided would be most fun. So beyond the very basic rules - you
kinda have to do the figures the caller called, and do them with whoever
you come to in line; that's the basic contract - anything else is optional.
I personally don't want anybody dancing with the newbies who is doing it
solely out of a sense of duty, rather than because they hope to enjoy it
or because they're taking a big-picture view and realize that the
activity needs to integrate the newbies in order to survive so that they
can keep enjoying it.
Erik Hoffman has a thing about the stages of a contra dancer, and the
mature contra dancer - in his view - has passed through the crazy
flourishes and hottest partner phase already and is now concerned with
the happiness of the room; can enjoy helping a beginner through a dance
as much as being in a hot set with a hot partner, etc. I like to think
that will happen, although I look around the Bay Area and see several
people who, it seems to me, are not mature dancers even though they've
been doing it for twenty years; guys and gals who book every dance,
often while in line for the previous dance, do dips; appear - and of
course I'm not in their heads so who knows what's actually going on - to
only partner with others they'd like to date, etc, etc. And while that
annoys me, it _is_ their perfect right. They paid their ten bucks; they
can try to have the kind of dance experience they want to have. We're
not going to toss them out for being uncommunitarian. And we need their
ten bucks. (Maybe not their individual ten bucks - we can afford to
bounce somebody for being creepy - but their collective ten bucks; if we
banned everybody who ever behaved selfishly from contra dances we'd have
a lot of trouble filling our dance halls.)
Even if you
did only want to dance with your friends, that is your
perfect right. You have complete freedom to decline any offer you
don't want to accept for whatever reason and then accept an offer you
do want to accept. You are not required to offer an explanation.
(If you say no to Joe and then yes to Jerry and Joe's paying
attention, he'll get the message that you didn't want to dance with
him and his feelings may be hurt, but that's actually his business,
not yours. It would possibly be a kindness to Joe and to the
community to tell Joe "you twirl me too much" or "I don't like to do
dips" if there's some simple way he could alter his behavior that
would let you enjoy dancing with him, but it's not required, and just
saying "No, thank you" means you don't have to have a conversation and
can each try to find other partners. If you only ever dance with a
small subset of the people in the hall, other people will eventually
notice and have opinions - and that's still their business, not
yours.)
Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with this, but how do you
reconcile
what you're writing here with the meme that people "should" dance with
the newbies and the sidelined dancers? Also, what accounts for the prevalance of the meme
that one "should
never" turn down an offer to dance? (I tend to fall into this camp and
I'm not really sure where I got it from.)
I was surprised recently to encounter
the "If you decline an invitation
you must sit out that dance" meme in Jane Austen, although I've
forgotten where. I don't know if that's where it's coming from, though.
-- Alan
5:15 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
I'm now 69. If I ever was in it, I passed the hot dancer phase long ago,
At the most of dances I usually attend, I go out of my way to dance with
newcomers, inexperienced dancers and those who always seem left out--at
least part of the night. After a few go rounds though, I tend to avoid
those dancers who just make it work to dance with them and that includes
some very experienced (including some folks who have been new dancers for
15 years) and some pretty good dancers who are just annoying. I often
dance with young people, at least in part because I want them to become
regulars--if they don't become regulars pretty soon everyone at the dance
begins to look like me--nobody wants that. Also because if they dance with
a patient, non-showoff, experienced dancer they tend to develop good dance
habits--and most dancers do want that. The one dance where I only
occasionally dance with newcomers is at Glen Echo. I figure I drive 2
hours or more to get there and 2 or more to get home, I'm going to optimize
my dance experience. I also believe there are enough regular dancers there
who should be making the effort to make newcomers feel at home.
Interestingly, I've still danced with enough new dancers there that they
seek me out as a partner. I understand that absolutely no one is obligated
to dance with me--ever (something I explain very carefully to new, young
dancers), nor is there any obligation to explain or make excuses. Still,
we should all try to not be rude. After a while, I just kind of give up.
They've made it clear that they prefer other dancers. I can deal with
that. And to be honest, if I'm wasting my time asking dancers who have
other preferences, I'm missing dancers who would be more than happy to
dance with me. On two separate occasions I decided I was wasting my time
asking already booked dancers and they later came to me and asked me why I
stopped asking. I explained that by taking time getting turned down by her
I was missing getting on the floor altogether and I'd rather dance than
watch. One of those women now occasionally asks me to dance. The other
ignores me as if was wearing a vanishing cloak. There are no absolute
answers, other than to encourage people to be kind, thoughtful, courteous,
understanding and careful. Kind of like life itself. Thanks,George
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 8:32 AM, Alan Winston <winston(a)slac.stanford.edu>wrote;wrote:
On 1/21/2013 6:27 PM, Aahz Maruch quoted me:
Even if you did only want to dance with your friends, that is your
Everyone who comes to a contra dance is trying to engage in
enjoyment-maximizing behavior. There are usually plenty of other things
they could be doing with their Saturday night, and this thing is what they
decided would be most fun. So beyond the very basic rules - you kinda
have to do the figures the caller called, and do them with whoever you come
to in line; that's the basic contract - anything else is optional.
I personally don't want anybody dancing with the newbies who is doing it
solely out of a sense of duty, rather than because they hope to enjoy it or
because they're taking a big-picture view and realize that the activity
needs to integrate the newbies in order to survive so that they can keep
enjoying it.
Erik Hoffman has a thing about the stages of a contra dancer, and the
mature contra dancer - in his view - has passed through the crazy
flourishes and hottest partner phase already and is now concerned with the
happiness of the room; can enjoy helping a beginner through a dance as much
as being in a hot set with a hot partner, etc. I like to think that will
happen, although I look around the Bay Area and see several people who, it
seems to me, are not mature dancers even though they've been doing it for
twenty years; guys and gals who book every dance, often while in line for
the previous dance, do dips; appear - and of course I'm not in their heads
so who knows what's actually going on - to only partner with others they'd
like to date, etc, etc. And while that annoys me, it _is_ their perfect
right. They paid their ten bucks; they can try to have the kind of dance
experience they want to have. We're not going to toss them out for being
uncommunitarian. And we need their ten bucks. (Maybe not their individual
ten bucks - we can afford to bounce somebody for being creepy - but their
collective ten bucks; if we banned everybody who ever behaved selfishly
from contra dances we'd have a lot of trouble filling our dance halls.)
Also, what accounts for the prevalance of the meme that one "should
perfect
right. You have complete freedom to decline any offer you
don't want to accept for whatever reason and then accept an offer you
do want to accept. You are not required to offer an explanation.
(If you say no to Joe and then yes to Jerry and Joe's paying
attention, he'll get the message that you didn't want to dance with
him and his feelings may be hurt, but that's actually his business,
not yours. It would possibly be a kindness to Joe and to the
community to tell Joe "you twirl me too much" or "I don't like to do
dips" if there's some simple way he could alter his behavior that
would let you enjoy dancing with him, but it's not required, and just
saying "No, thank you" means you don't have to have a conversation and
can each try to find other partners. If you only ever dance with a
small subset of the people in the hall, other people will eventually
notice and have opinions - and that's still their business, not
yours.)
Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with this, but how do you reconcile
what you're writing here with the meme that people "should" dance with
the newbies and the sidelined dancers?
never" turn down an offer to dance? (I tend
to fall into this camp and
I'm not really sure where I got it from.)
I was surprised recently to encounter the "If you decline an invitation
you must sit out that dance" meme in Jane Austen, although I've forgotten
where. I don't know if that's where it's coming from, though.
-- Alan
______________________________**_________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/**mailman/listinfo/callers<http://www.shared…
5:25 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 12:15 PM, George Mercer <geopmercer(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On two separate occasions I decided I was wasting my
time
asking already booked dancers and they later came to me and asked me why I
stopped asking.
I have a couple of times gotten the response "I have a parter, but
please ask me again later,"
That 1) lets you know that they *would* like to dance with you, and 2)
avoids the issues of book-ahead.
6:49 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
On 1/22/2013 9:15 AM, George Mercer wrote:
There are no absolute
answers, other than to encourage people to be kind, thoughtful, courteous,
understanding and careful. Kind of like life itself. Thanks,George
Can we put this on a plaque on the wall at all our dance venues?
Kalia
7:41 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
I really liked what George had to say.
-Ron Blechner
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 12:15 PM, George Mercer <geopmercer(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I'm now 69. If I ever was in it, I passed the hot
dancer phase long ago,
At the most of dances I usually attend, I go out of my way to dance with
newcomers, inexperienced dancers and those who always seem left out--at
least part of the night. After a few go rounds though, I tend to avoid
those dancers who just make it work to dance with them and that includes
some very experienced (including some folks who have been new dancers for
15 years) and some pretty good dancers who are just annoying. I often
dance with young people, at least in part because I want them to become
regulars--if they don't become regulars pretty soon everyone at the dance
begins to look like me--nobody wants that. Also because if they dance with
a patient, non-showoff, experienced dancer they tend to develop good dance
habits--and most dancers do want that. The one dance where I only
occasionally dance with newcomers is at Glen Echo. I figure I drive 2
hours or more to get there and 2 or more to get home, I'm going to optimize
my dance experience. I also believe there are enough regular dancers there
who should be making the effort to make newcomers feel at home.
Interestingly, I've still danced with enough new dancers there that they
seek me out as a partner. I understand that absolutely no one is obligated
to dance with me--ever (something I explain very carefully to new, young
dancers), nor is there any obligation to explain or make excuses. Still,
we should all try to not be rude. After a while, I just kind of give up.
They've made it clear that they prefer other dancers. I can deal with
that. And to be honest, if I'm wasting my time asking dancers who have
other preferences, I'm missing dancers who would be more than happy to
dance with me. On two separate occasions I decided I was wasting my time
asking already booked dancers and they later came to me and asked me why I
stopped asking. I explained that by taking time getting turned down by her
I was missing getting on the floor altogether and I'd rather dance than
watch. One of those women now occasionally asks me to dance. The other
ignores me as if was wearing a vanishing cloak. There are no absolute
answers, other than to encourage people to be kind, thoughtful, courteous,
understanding and careful. Kind of like life itself. Thanks,George
23 Jan
23 Jan
2:06 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
Ron wrote to Greg:
** Booking ahead is done because people want to dance
with a small subset
of dancers who are their friends / the "cool, hip dancers" / etc. **
So I don't, as a caller, make the assumption that you present. Instead, I
believe that unless a dance specifically fosters a new-dancer-friendly,
inclusive environment, and goes out of its way to post signs / e-mails /
promote discussion with callers / etc, dancers will generally see a narrow
view of what's going on at the dance. It's up to organizers and callers, I
believe, to specifically shape the dance to a friendly environment ...
... if that's the dance's goal.
Thanks Ron. I think we agree entirely about our goals. Shaping the dance
to a friendly environment is a goal implicit in the open, public nature of
our dances and in the accessibility of the dance form to people of all
skill and experience levels. As callers and leaders it is our role to
facilitate that.
It is true that many folks “want to dance with a small subset of dancers
who are their friends / the ‘cool, hip dancers’ / etc.” It is a natural
human tendency to form cliques and subgroups.
But it is also true that:
- People want to feel they are a part of something larger than
themselves.
- People enjoy sharing something they are passionate about with
new friends.
- The structure of the dance itself requires an empathetic
response from the dancers. We are all in this dance together and if anyone
fails we all fail.
- Said another way: Our own personal enjoyment depends upon the
success of newcomers in the hall. or Our "enjoyment-maximizing behavior"
includes dancing with first-timers.
- The caller is in a key position to provide leadership in this
process.
- There are numerous things the caller can do to make this process
both easy and fun for the regulars as well as for the newcomers.
It is always the caller’s fault. If the caller is not doing everything
possible to make it easy and fun for regulars to partner with first-time
dancers then any attribution of this problem to “selfish dancers” is
nothing more than a “blame the dancers” excuse for our own poor calling.
This is why I think of open, public contra dances as one of the greatest
challenges for a contra dance caller. The caller needs to know how to earn
and hold the attention of the hall. The instructions and calls need to be
clear, precise, structured using the most effective word order, and given
at precisely the time when the information is needed by the regulars so
that they can confidently lead their first-timer partners.
The sad fact is that most contra dance callers—including some very popular
and well known callers—either do not know how to do this effectively or
don’t believe that this is even their responsibility. Instead they resort
to a “blame the dancers” strategy. I know this because I did it myself for
more than a decade.
But if the dancers perceive the process of partnering with first-timers to
be a “duty” or “task” instead of one of the primary reasons they enjoy
attending open, public contra dances—and make the effort to drive two hours
to such a dance—this is the caller’s fault.
Sorry about that.
Alan wrote:
“…if we banned everybody who ever behaved selfishly
from contra dances
we'd have a lot of trouble filling our dance halls.”
Thank you Alan for being specific that it is the *behavior* the caller
needs to address, and not a certain “type” of dancer. When you adopt the
maxim that the caller takes responsibility for everything that happens in
the hall—which is the only sensible framing that offers us any hope to
”shape the dance to a friendly environment…”—then the caller will assume
the support of all of the regulars in this effort and give them what they
need to partner confidently with first-time dancers and to enjoy that
experience.
Our biggest obstacle to success in this effort is the “selfish dancer”
frame in our own brain which distracts us from the goal of better
calling. Yes,
it is true. Some dancers behave more selfishly at times than others. But
we can choose to “frame” the situation differently. We can choose to look
at this as a symptom of our calling, rather than a moral weakness in some
dancers. These folks might be reacting to our failure to make the process
easy and fun.
Instead of complaining about “selfish dancers” I think we would be better
served to discuss strategies, as callers, to better integrate the hall and
make it fun for everyone no matter who they are dancing with or where in
the hall they are dancing.
That’s the way I choose to look at it,
Greg McKenzie
****************
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 5:32 AM, Alan Winston <winston(a)slac.stanford.edu>wrote;wrote:
On 1/21/2013 6:27 PM, Aahz Maruch quoted me:
Even if you did only want to dance with your friends, that is your
Everyone who comes to a contra dance is trying to engage in
enjoyment-maximizing behavior. There are usually plenty of other things
they could be doing with their Saturday night, and this thing is what they
decided would be most fun. So beyond the very basic rules - you kinda
have to do the figures the caller called, and do them with whoever you come
to in line; that's the basic contract - anything else is optional.
I personally don't want anybody dancing with the newbies who is doing it
solely out of a sense of duty, rather than because they hope to enjoy it or
because they're taking a big-picture view and realize that the activity
needs to integrate the newbies in order to survive so that they can keep
enjoying it.
Erik Hoffman has a thing about the stages of a contra dancer, and the
mature contra dancer - in his view - has passed through the crazy
flourishes and hottest partner phase already and is now concerned with the
happiness of the room; can enjoy helping a beginner through a dance as much
as being in a hot set with a hot partner, etc. I like to think that will
happen, although I look around the Bay Area and see several people who, it
seems to me, are not mature dancers even though they've been doing it for
twenty years; guys and gals who book every dance, often while in line for
the previous dance, do dips; appear - and of course I'm not in their heads
so who knows what's actually going on - to only partner with others they'd
like to date, etc, etc. And while that annoys me, it _is_ their perfect
right. They paid their ten bucks; they can try to have the kind of dance
experience they want to have. We're not going to toss them out for being
uncommunitarian. And we need their ten bucks. (Maybe not their individual
ten bucks - we can afford to bounce somebody for being creepy - but their
collective ten bucks; if we banned everybody who ever behaved selfishly
from contra dances we'd have a lot of trouble filling our dance halls.)
Also, what accounts for the prevalance of the meme that one "should
perfect
right. You have complete freedom to decline any offer you
don't want to accept for whatever reason and then accept an offer you
do want to accept. You are not required to offer an explanation.
(If you say no to Joe and then yes to Jerry and Joe's paying
attention, he'll get the message that you didn't want to dance with
him and his feelings may be hurt, but that's actually his business,
not yours. It would possibly be a kindness to Joe and to the
community to tell Joe "you twirl me too much" or "I don't like to do
dips" if there's some simple way he could alter his behavior that
would let you enjoy dancing with him, but it's not required, and just
saying "No, thank you" means you don't have to have a conversation and
can each try to find other partners. If you only ever dance with a
small subset of the people in the hall, other people will eventually
notice and have opinions - and that's still their business, not
yours.)
Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with this, but how do you reconcile
what you're writing here with the meme that people "should" dance with
the newbies and the sidelined dancers?
never" turn down an offer to dance? (I tend
to fall into this camp and
I'm not really sure where I got it from.)
I was surprised recently to encounter the "If you decline an invitation
you must sit out that dance" meme in Jane Austen, although I've forgotten
where. I don't know if that's where it's coming from, though.
-- Alan
______________________________**_________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/**mailman/listinfo/callers<http://www.shared…
24 Jan
24 Jan
5:05 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
Greg,
You need to watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7b3yzjAv8c
There are dances where you can take the greatest caller in the world,
the best band in the world, and there will be stubborn dancers who
just. Don't. Listen.
"> But if the dancers perceive the process of partnering with first-timers to
be a “duty” or “task” instead of one of the primary
reasons they enjoy
attending open, public contra dances—and make the effort to drive two hours
to such a dance—this is the caller’s fault."
While, in my experience, the friendliness of the average folk dancer's
is better than the average person in general, we are far from the
picture you describe.
While you and I agree very much so on the caller's power and
responsibilities, you paint too rosy of a picture of people. Callers
can set a good example, promote friendliness and safety, inject energy
into a room, but not even the best diplomats in the world can stand in
front of a room full of people who are attending event to have
personal fun, and turn them into altruists who want to seek out new
dancers.
I also think that by alleging this "it's the caller's fault", you
de-emphasize the things that *do* work to make dances more friendly. I
think they are long-term initiatives that must be done by organizers
in conjunction with callers. For example, the dances I attend that
have clear, written, expressed organizational values that promote
friendliness and safety are, by no coincidence, the dances that are
the friendliest and most inviting towards new dancers.
That's why we have these discussions here - because it's the community
leaders acting together, and not one person at a dance - the caller.
This is a *community* dance. Attitudes in a community are dictated by
the whole community, not one person on stage with a mic.
In dance,
Ron
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Greg McKenzie <grekenzie(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Ron wrote to Greg:
** Booking ahead is done because people want to
dance with a small subset
of dancers who are their friends / the "cool, hip dancers" / etc. **
So I don't, as a caller, make the assumption that you present. Instead, I
believe that unless a dance specifically fosters a new-dancer-friendly,
inclusive environment, and goes out of its way to post signs / e-mails /
promote discussion with callers / etc, dancers will generally see a narrow
view of what's going on at the dance. It's up to organizers and callers, I
believe, to specifically shape the dance to a friendly environment ...
... if that's the dance's goal.
Thanks Ron. I think we agree entirely about our goals. Shaping the dance
to a friendly environment is a goal implicit in the open, public nature of
our dances and in the accessibility of the dance form to people of all
skill and experience levels. As callers and leaders it is our role to
facilitate that.
It is true that many folks “want to dance with a small subset of dancers
who are their friends / the ‘cool, hip dancers’ / etc.” It is a natural
human tendency to form cliques and subgroups.
But it is also true that:
- People want to feel they are a part of something larger than
themselves.
- People enjoy sharing something they are passionate about with
new friends.
- The structure of the dance itself requires an empathetic
response from the dancers. We are all in this dance together and if anyone
fails we all fail.
- Said another way: Our own personal enjoyment depends upon the
success of newcomers in the hall. or Our "enjoyment-maximizing behavior"
includes dancing with first-timers.
- The caller is in a key position to provide leadership in this
process.
- There are numerous things the caller can do to make this process
both easy and fun for the regulars as well as for the newcomers.
It is always the caller’s fault. If the caller is not doing everything
possible to make it easy and fun for regulars to partner with first-time
dancers then any attribution of this problem to “selfish dancers” is
nothing more than a “blame the dancers” excuse for our own poor calling.
This is why I think of open, public contra dances as one of the greatest
challenges for a contra dance caller. The caller needs to know how to earn
and hold the attention of the hall. The instructions and calls need to be
clear, precise, structured using the most effective word order, and given
at precisely the time when the information is needed by the regulars so
that they can confidently lead their first-timer partners.
The sad fact is that most contra dance callers—including some very popular
and well known callers—either do not know how to do this effectively or
don’t believe that this is even their responsibility. Instead they resort
to a “blame the dancers” strategy. I know this because I did it myself for
more than a decade.
But if the dancers perceive the process of partnering with first-timers to
be a “duty” or “task” instead of one of the primary reasons they enjoy
attending open, public contra dances—and make the effort to drive two hours
to such a dance—this is the caller’s fault.
Sorry about that.
10:44 p.m.
New subject: Booking Ahead - (was ideas for callers about sidelines)
Ron wrote:
You need to watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7b3yzjAv8c
There are dances where you can take the greatest caller in the world,
the best band in the world, and there will be stubborn dancers who
just. Don't. Listen.
Thank you Ron for responding and for posting this link. This is
hilarious! I have seen it before. It perfectly typifies what I call the
"selfish dancer" frame. This is how we imagine the worst behaviors of the
most obstinate dancers.
But there is a reason this is a cartoon. Real people are never quite this
clueless...not when standing with other dancers, and not to the caller's
face. Nor would you accuse anyone of behaving this way to their face. It
is a "frame" we create in our own brain to stereotype dancers. As such it
is quite useless when dealing with reality.
The reality is that all of us are capable of clueless and obstinate
behavior at times. And all of us can change our behavior...and rather
quickly I might add. What it takes is interaction with a leader who
assumes the best qualities of those they are leading.
When I wrote:
"> But if the dancers perceive the process of
partnering with first-timers
to
Ron responded with:
be a “duty” or “task” instead of one of the
primary reasons they enjoy
attending open, public contra dances—and make the effort to drive two
hours
to such a dance—this is the caller’s fault."
While, in my experience, the friendliness of the
average folk dancer's
is better than the average person in general, we are far from the
picture you describe.
The picture I describe is a "frame" in your brain. You have to create it
there and use it. People tend to fulfill our expectations of them, either
positive or negative. It's about leadership. If you treat someone with
respect and kindness they will be more likely to respond to you in a
similar manner. If you treat them like a cartoon...well, I think you get
the idea.
Ron then wrote:
While you and I agree very much so on the caller's
power and
responsibilities, you paint too rosy of a picture of people. Callers
can set a good example, promote friendliness and safety, inject energy
into a room, but not even the best diplomats in the world can stand in
front of a room full of people who are attending event to have
personal fun, and turn them into altruists who want to seek out new
dancers.
Callers are in a unique position. If they do their job well they are
representing the interests of the entire hall...as well as a tradition that
spans generations. That is not omnipotence but it is more influence than
anyone else in the hall.
Ron also wrote:
I also think that by alleging this "it's the
caller's fault", you
de-emphasize the things that *do* work to make dances more friendly. I
think they are long-term initiatives that must be done by organizers
in conjunction with callers. For example, the dances I attend that
have clear, written, expressed organizational values that promote
friendliness and safety are, by no coincidence, the dances that are
the friendliest and most inviting towards new dancers.
Well, you might have a point here. All of that is important, and useful.
I emphasize the caller's role only because this is a discussion list for
callers. Isn't it?
And...
That's why we have these discussions here -
because it's the community
leaders acting together, and not one person at a dance - the caller.
This is a *community* dance. Attitudes in a community are dictated by
the whole community, not one person on stage with a mic.
Absolutely. I agree fully. As the group facilitator and a leader the
caller is in a good position to inspire leadership in others as well. The
whole community is needed to make any progress on these issues. The caller
leads by multiple means. Some of them have been described as: "Leading by
example", and "Leading by omission." I use the term "Leading by
assumption" to describe what I outlined above. A lot of it has to do with
what a person decides NOT to say and NOT to do.
If anyone wants to discuss the ways callers...and others can lead, I would
love to have such a thread.
Best Regards,
Greg McKenzie
23 Mar
23 Mar
1:52 p.m.
[returning to an old thread and therefore overquoting]
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013, Alan Winston wrote:
Okay, so it really has been around a long time. ;-)
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Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
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On 1/21/2013 6:27 PM, Aahz Maruch quoted me:
Hrm, this (particularly the first sentence) seems to contradict what you
say below about mature dancers. Or do you mean to apply "enjoyment
maximizing" only to the choice to come contra dancing as opposed to the
behavior at the dance?
Alan Winston:
Everyone who comes to a contra dance is trying to engage in
enjoyment-maximizing behavior. There are usually plenty of other
things they could be doing with their Saturday night, and this thing
is what they decided would be most fun. So beyond the very basic
rules - you kinda have to do the figures the caller called, and do
them with whoever you come to in line; that's the basic contract -
anything else is optional.
Even if you did only want to dance with your friends, that is your
perfect right. You have complete freedom to decline any offer you
don't want to accept for whatever reason and then accept an offer you
do want to accept. You are not required to offer an explanation.
(If you say no to Joe and then yes to Jerry and Joe's paying
attention, he'll get the message that you didn't want to dance with
him and his feelings may be hurt, but that's actually his business,
not yours. It would possibly be a kindness to Joe and to the
community to tell Joe "you twirl me too much" or "I don't like to do
dips" if there's some simple way he could alter his behavior that
would let you enjoy dancing with him, but it's not required, and just
saying "No, thank you" means you don't have to have a conversation and
can each try to find other partners. If you only ever dance with a
small subset of the people in the hall, other people will eventually
notice and have opinions - and that's still their business, not
yours.)
Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with this, but how do you reconcile
what you're writing here with the meme that people "should" dance with
the newbies and the sidelined dancers? I personally don't want anybody dancing with the
newbies who is
doing it solely out of a sense of duty, rather than because they
hope to enjoy it or because they're taking a big-picture view and
realize that the activity needs to integrate the newbies in order to
survive so that they can keep enjoying it.
Fair enough.
Erik Hoffman has a thing about the stages of a contra
dancer, and
the mature contra dancer - in his view - has passed through the
crazy flourishes and hottest partner phase already and is now
concerned with the happiness of the room; can enjoy helping a
beginner through a dance as much as being in a hot set with a hot
partner, etc. I like to think that will happen, although I look
around the Bay Area and see several people who, it seems to me, are
not mature dancers even though they've been doing it for twenty
years; guys and gals who book every dance, often while in line for
the previous dance, do dips; appear - and of course I'm not in
their heads so who knows what's actually going on - to only partner
with others they'd like to date, etc, etc. And while that annoys
me, it _is_ their perfect right. They paid their ten bucks; they
can try to have the kind of dance experience they want to have.
We're not going to toss them out for being uncommunitarian. And we
need their ten bucks. (Maybe not their individual ten bucks - we
can afford to bounce somebody for being creepy - but their
collective ten bucks; if we banned everybody who ever behaved
selfishly from contra dances we'd have a lot of trouble filling our
dance halls.)
Given that I disagree with Erik on a number of issues, I'm not taking his
word on what a "mature dancer" looks like. More precisely, I'm both a
"mature dancer" (because I try to stay aware of what of what keeps the
community together and take actions based on that awareness, such as
dancing gently with newcomers) and an "immature dancer" because I'm a
"contra cut-up" (as I usually phrase it) and therefore tend to reject any
kind of strict labeling.
Also, what
accounts for the prevalance of the meme that one "should
never" turn down an offer to dance? (I tend to fall into this camp and
I'm not really sure where I got it from.)
I was surprised recently to encounter the "If you decline an
invitation you must sit out that dance" meme in Jane Austen,
although I've forgotten where. I don't know if that's where it's
coming from, though.
4291
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contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
28 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
-
Aahz Maruch -
Aaron Redfern -
Alan Winston -
Andrea Nettleton -
Dave Casserly -
Donald Perley -
George Mercer -
Greg McKenzie -
Kalia Kliban -
Laur -
Linda Leslie -
Lindsay Morris -
Maia McCormick -
Michael Fuerst -
Perry Shafran -
Ron T Blechner