24 Sep
2018
24 Sep
'18
12:38 p.m.
As may be obvious, I love Mad Robins. I'm still working on what is the best
way to teach them.
I know about the "Dosido/now face your Partner/on the same path as the
Dosido, do a Mad Robin" approach and have used it.
I've heard other callers I admire admonish to not use the "wrong" move as a
teaching tool for the "right" move - as it's that much harder to
"unlearn"
the original bit.
What I've observed is that newer dancers may end up focused on the wrong
person, facing the wrong direction, and possibly doing the "Dosido Twirl"
when using the Dosido teach. But they *do* follow the correct path (so long
as the caller remembers to say SeeSaw vs. Dosido as the correct analogue)
on the floor. Some can make the facing adjustment and some persist in
facing the wrong way. If the dance tolerates the facing differences, all is
OK.
As a practice, I actively solicit feedback on my calling at each gig. Out
of a recent one I got into an extended discussion about the Mad Robin teach
with a dancer whom had struggled with their beginner partner in a sequence
that evening. I had read that crowd as highly experienced so did only a
basic teaching of the move, which they reported having not got through to
this beginner. They freely offered that all was well around them, it was
just a frustration in their own experience. We touched on the merits and
drawbacks of the Dosido teach (which I chose not to use in that situation
as it appears to annoy experienced dancers, plus because of the above
points).
I'm trying to evolve to something that teaches both the correct motion and
the facing direction at the same time - *without* taxing experienced folks'
patience. I have my own ideas on this but welcome others'.
So, how do *you* teach a Mad Robin most effectively and efficiently? Do you
vary it by context, crowd composition, other factors?
Thanks,
Don
24 Sep
24 Sep
12:49 p.m.
Oh man, I'm excited to hear others' response to this question, because I've
also struggled with this. For a while I used "dosido; now walk that same
path while looking at your partner" and found it to be... less effective
with the beginners than I wanted it to be.
Honestly, sometimes I demo it, especially if there's something interesting
that comes after--while it definitely CAN be taught from the mic, sometimes
a demo is just clearer.
When teaching it from the mic, I've taken to doing it like this:
1. "This is another of those fancy moves that gets you right back where you
started. *At the end of this move, you'll be right back here*."
2. "So it's important to *stay on the side of your set*. Lots of people
feel like they should cross. Don't."
3. "Lock eyes with your [partner]. You're going to walk a little circle
around your [neighbor], while looking at your partner.
4. "[Ravens] take a small step forward, [larks] take a small step back."
5. "Keep your eyes on your partner. Ravens, step to your left and larks
step to your right, sliding past your neighbor."
6. "Now larks step forward and ravens step back; larks step right and
ravens step left, sliding past your neighbor again."
7. "You're back where you started, hooray! Now let's try that up to
speed..." etc.
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 12:39 PM Don Veino via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
As may be obvious, I love Mad Robins. I'm still
working on what is the
best way to teach them.
I know about the "Dosido/now face your Partner/on the same path as the
Dosido, do a Mad Robin" approach and have used it.
I've heard other callers I admire admonish to not use the "wrong" move as
a teaching tool for the "right" move - as it's that much harder to
"unlearn" the original bit.
What I've observed is that newer dancers may end up focused on the wrong
person, facing the wrong direction, and possibly doing the "Dosido Twirl"
when using the Dosido teach. But they *do* follow the correct path (so
long as the caller remembers to say SeeSaw vs. Dosido as the correct
analogue) on the floor. Some can make the facing adjustment and some
persist in facing the wrong way. If the dance tolerates the facing
differences, all is OK.
As a practice, I actively solicit feedback on my calling at each gig. Out
of a recent one I got into an extended discussion about the Mad Robin teach
with a dancer whom had struggled with their beginner partner in a sequence
that evening. I had read that crowd as highly experienced so did only a
basic teaching of the move, which they reported having not got through to
this beginner. They freely offered that all was well around them, it was
just a frustration in their own experience. We touched on the merits and
drawbacks of the Dosido teach (which I chose not to use in that situation
as it appears to annoy experienced dancers, plus because of the above
points).
I'm trying to evolve to something that teaches both the correct motion and
the facing direction at the same time - *without* taxing experienced
folks' patience. I have my own ideas on this but welcome others'.
So, how do *you* teach a Mad Robin most effectively and efficiently? Do
you vary it by context, crowd composition, other factors?
Thanks,
Don
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12:57 p.m.
Your numbered list approach is just what I did that night (but Gents and
Ladies). I do like your stressing point 2.
-Don
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 12:49 PM, Maia McCormick <maiamcc(a)gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
When teaching it from the mic, I've taken to doing it like this:
1. "This is another of those fancy moves that gets you right back where
you started. *At the end of this move, you'll be right back here*."
2. "So it's important to *stay on the side of your set*. Lots of people
feel like they should cross. Don't."
3. "Lock eyes with your [partner]. You're going to walk a little circle
around your [neighbor], while looking at your partner.
4. "[Ravens] take a small step forward, [larks] take a small step back."
5. "Keep your eyes on your partner. Ravens, step to your left and larks
step to your right, sliding past your neighbor."
6. "Now larks step forward and ravens step back; larks step right and
ravens step left, sliding past your neighbor again."
7. "You're back where you started, hooray! Now let's try that up to
speed..." etc.
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 12:39 PM Don Veino via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> As may be obvious, I love Mad Robins. I'm still working on what is the
> best way to teach them.
>
> [snip]
25 Sep
25 Sep
2:09 a.m.
For me, the obvious problem with the do-si-do analogy is that mad robins
can go in either direction, and if it's counterclockwise, it's the path of
a see-saw instead of a do-si-do (and I don't teach see-saw if I can help
it).
My experience is that the important parts are:
- It's a sideways sliding figure
- You're sliding around neighbor while looking at partner (or vice versa)
- You return to where you started
So this might sound like:
"Don't do it yet. We're about to do a sideways sliding figure called a mad
robin."
(Maybe, add something about returning to starting place if it seems like
it'll help this audience)
"You'll be looking at your partner the whole time but sliding sideways
around your neighbor."
"It starts with, ravens slide to the right in front as larks slide to the
left behind," (dancers are now moving)
"then larks slide to the right in front as ravens slide to the left
behind." (continue moving)
"And you're back where you started."
Also, some people - some beginners, but also some experienced dancers - are
not able to confidently move sideways while keeping their eyes on their
partner, or maybe it's too much staring for them, so they do the motion
without the eye contact. At my local dances I'd say this happens at least
1/3 of the time. Does this feel satisfying? No. Does it work fine? Yes.
I've learned to manage my expectations.
Yoyo Zhou
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 9:57 AM Don Veino via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Your numbered list approach is just what I did that
night (but Gents and
Ladies). I do like your stressing point 2.
-Don
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 12:49 PM, Maia McCormick <maiamcc(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
[snip]
When teaching it from the mic, I've taken to doing it like this:
1. "This is another of those fancy moves that gets you right back where
you started. *At the end of this move, you'll be right back here*."
2. "So it's important to *stay on the side of your set*. Lots of people
feel like they should cross. Don't."
3. "Lock eyes with your [partner]. You're going to walk a little circle
around your [neighbor], while looking at your partner.
4. "[Ravens] take a small step forward, [larks] take a small step back."
5. "Keep your eyes on your partner. Ravens, step to your left and larks
step to your right, sliding past your neighbor."
6. "Now larks step forward and ravens step back; larks step right and
ravens step left, sliding past your neighbor again."
7. "You're back where you started, hooray! Now let's try that up to
speed..." etc.
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 12:39 PM Don Veino via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> As may be obvious, I love Mad Robins. I'm still working on what is the
> best way to teach them.
>
> [snip]
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28 Sep
28 Sep
8:29 a.m.
It’s perhaps worth saying during the teaching “also called a double mad robin,” since
dancers will sometimes hear that (from callers who know ECD). I’ve seen confusion on
moderately experienced contra dancers’ faces (and feet) at the term “double mad robin”
(thinking you go around twice, or that it involves more than 4 people) because they’ve
only ever seen the figure with 4 people moving and they’ve only ever heard it called “mad
robin.”
(In the English country dance “Mad Robin,” only two people are moving in the eponymous
figure.)
Read Weaver
Jamaica Plain, MA
http://lcfd.org
8:51 a.m.
I don't think the distinction is necessary is it? "mad robin with your
neighbour" is clearly distinct from "1s in the middle mad robin" so why
add
double mad robin? It'd be like calling most petronella's double
petronellas because they have four people moving but the original
petronella is for 1s only.
Bob
On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 1:29 PM Read Weaver via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
It’s perhaps worth saying during the teaching “also
called a double mad
robin,” since dancers will sometimes hear that (from callers who know ECD).
I’ve seen confusion on moderately experienced contra dancers’ faces (and
feet) at the term “double mad robin” (thinking you go around twice, or that
it involves more than 4 people) because they’ve only ever seen the figure
with 4 people moving and they’ve only ever heard it called “mad robin.”
(In the English country dance “Mad Robin,” only two people are moving in
the eponymous figure.)
Read Weaver
Jamaica Plain, MA
http://lcfd.org
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29 Sep
29 Sep
12:01 p.m.
Sorry I was unclear. Because some contra callers say “mad robin” and some contra callers
say “double mad robin,” meaning the same thing, and if you’ve learned it as “mad robin”
and a new-to-you caller says “double mad robin,” you’ll think it’s a different figure.
On Sep 28, 2018, at 8:51 AM, Folk Dance
<ceilidh.caller.bob(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I don't think the distinction is necessary is it? "mad robin with your
neighbour" is clearly distinct from "1s in the middle mad robin" so why add
double mad robin? It'd be like calling most petronella's double petronellas
because they have four people moving but the original petronella is for 1s only.
Bob
On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 1:29 PM Read Weaver via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
wrote:
It’s perhaps worth saying during the teaching “also called a double mad robin,” since
dancers will sometimes hear that (from callers who know ECD). I’ve seen confusion on
moderately experienced contra dancers’ faces (and feet) at the term “double mad robin”
(thinking you go around twice, or that it involves more than 4 people) because they’ve
only ever seen the figure with 4 people moving and they’ve only ever heard it called “mad
robin.”
(In the English country dance “Mad Robin,” only two people are moving in the eponymous
figure.)
5:15 p.m.
I gathered that was the case - it just isn't something I've come across and
it seems redundant to use the double option. Is it really widespread
enough that it needs mentioning?
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 5:02 PM Read Weaver via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Sorry I was unclear. Because some contra callers say
“mad robin” and some
contra callers say “double mad robin,” meaning the same thing, and if
you’ve learned it as “mad robin” and a new-to-you caller says “double mad
robin,” you’ll think it’s a different figure.
On Sep 28, 2018, at 8:51 AM, Folk Dance <ceilidh.caller.bob(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
I don't think the distinction is necessary is it? "mad robin with your
neighbour" is clearly distinct from "1s in the middle mad robin" so why
add
double mad robin? It'd be like calling most petronella's double
petronellas because they have four people moving but the original
petronella is for 1s only.
Bob
On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 1:29 PM Read Weaver via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
It’s perhaps worth saying during the teaching
“also called a double mad
robin,” since dancers will sometimes hear that (from callers who know ECD).
I’ve seen confusion on moderately experienced contra dancers’ faces (and
feet) at the term “double mad robin” (thinking you go around twice, or that
it involves more than 4 people) because they’ve only ever seen the figure
with 4 people moving and they’ve only ever heard it called “mad robin.”
(In the English country dance “Mad Robin,” only two people are moving in
the eponymous figure.)
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24 Sep
24 Sep
1:33 p.m.
Hi Don,
I find that the key word is the one that Maia used: “Slide”.
I teach it as slide in front/behind, step forwards/backwards, slide back to
where you started.
And, very important, I call it as “Slide (to the side)” for the first few
times through the dance.
Calling “Mad Robin” means that they have to process the words before they
can do the move. Call “Slide” and they slide.
I find that using a Ladies’ Chain into an anti-clockwise Mad Robin is one of
the easiest combinations since the dancers finish the Ladies’ Chain with man behind and
the lady in front ready for the slide.
Telling the dancers that it is called a Mad Robin is useful as it may help
them next time they meet the move, but it is not a useful term per se as it has no
intrinsic meaning.
I don’t usually bother with the Dosido method; it causes more confusion that
it is worth.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events & DVDs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
1:33 p.m.
That's why I use the term "sashay around" rather than "mad
robin".
Sashay means move sideways, and around is pretty obvious.
tell them who to go around and who to focus their attention on and no one
has too much trouble doing it correctly.
Besides, "sashay around" or "sashay round" feels better to say than
"mad
robin" -- which sounds angry or confused, IMO.
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 11:39 AM Don Veino via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
As may be obvious, I love Mad Robins. I'm still
working on what is the
best way to teach them.
I know about the "Dosido/now face your Partner/on the same path as the
Dosido, do a Mad Robin" approach and have used it.
I've heard other callers I admire admonish to not use the "wrong" move as
a teaching tool for the "right" move - as it's that much harder to
"unlearn" the original bit.
What I've observed is that newer dancers may end up focused on the wrong
person, facing the wrong direction, and possibly doing the "Dosido Twirl"
when using the Dosido teach. But they *do* follow the correct path (so
long as the caller remembers to say SeeSaw vs. Dosido as the correct
analogue) on the floor. Some can make the facing adjustment and some
persist in facing the wrong way. If the dance tolerates the facing
differences, all is OK.
As a practice, I actively solicit feedback on my calling at each gig. Out
of a recent one I got into an extended discussion about the Mad Robin teach
with a dancer whom had struggled with their beginner partner in a sequence
that evening. I had read that crowd as highly experienced so did only a
basic teaching of the move, which they reported having not got through to
this beginner. They freely offered that all was well around them, it was
just a frustration in their own experience. We touched on the merits and
drawbacks of the Dosido teach (which I chose not to use in that situation
as it appears to annoy experienced dancers, plus because of the above
points).
I'm trying to evolve to something that teaches both the correct motion and
the facing direction at the same time - *without* taxing experienced
folks' patience. I have my own ideas on this but welcome others'.
So, how do *you* teach a Mad Robin most effectively and efficiently? Do
you vary it by context, crowd composition, other factors?
Thanks,
Don
_______________________________________________
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List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
--
*Looking forward,Linda S. Mrosko*
*102 Mitchell Drive*
*Temple, Texas 76501*
*(903) 292-3713 (Cell)*
*(903) 603-9955 (Skype)*
*contradancetx.com <http://www.contradancetx.com>*
*www.zazzle.com/fuzzycozy* <http://www.zazzle.com/fuzzycozy*> (Dance
buttons, t-shirts, & more)*
1:46 p.m.
Here is the definition of Half Sashay from the square dance world. A Mad
robin is simply two half sashay. The direction may change, and it may be
"neighbor" instead of "partner", but the simplicity of definition may
help.
(a) HALF SASHAY
Starting formation - couple.
Partners exchange places without changing facing directions.
Dancer on the right sidesteps to the left, while the other dancer on the
left steps back, sidesteps to the right, then steps forward to rejoin
partner.
Rich Sbardella
Stafford, CT
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 1:33 PM Linda S. Mrosko via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
That's why I use the term "sashay
around" rather than "mad robin".
Sashay means move sideways, and around is pretty obvious.
tell them who to go around and who to focus their attention on and no one
has too much trouble doing it correctly.
Besides, "sashay around" or "sashay round" feels better to say than
"mad
robin" -- which sounds angry or confused, IMO.
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 11:39 AM Don Veino via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
As may be obvious, I love Mad Robins. I'm
still working on what is the
best way to teach them.
I know about the "Dosido/now face your Partner/on the same path as the
Dosido, do a Mad Robin" approach and have used it.
I've heard other callers I admire admonish to not use the "wrong" move as
a teaching tool for the "right" move - as it's that much harder to
"unlearn" the original bit.
What I've observed is that newer dancers may end up focused on the wrong
person, facing the wrong direction, and possibly doing the "Dosido Twirl"
when using the Dosido teach. But they *do* follow the correct path (so
long as the caller remembers to say SeeSaw vs. Dosido as the correct
analogue) on the floor. Some can make the facing adjustment and some
persist in facing the wrong way. If the dance tolerates the facing
differences, all is OK.
As a practice, I actively solicit feedback on my calling at each gig. Out
of a recent one I got into an extended discussion about the Mad Robin teach
with a dancer whom had struggled with their beginner partner in a sequence
that evening. I had read that crowd as highly experienced so did only a
basic teaching of the move, which they reported having not got through to
this beginner. They freely offered that all was well around them, it was
just a frustration in their own experience. We touched on the merits and
drawbacks of the Dosido teach (which I chose not to use in that situation
as it appears to annoy experienced dancers, plus because of the above
points).
I'm trying to evolve to something that teaches both the correct motion
and the facing direction at the same time - *without* taxing experienced
folks' patience. I have my own ideas on this but welcome others'.
So, how do *you* teach a Mad Robin most effectively and efficiently? Do
you vary it by context, crowd composition, other factors?
Thanks,
Don
_______________________________________________
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List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
--
*Looking forward,Linda S. Mrosko*
*102 Mitchell Drive*
*Temple, Texas 76501*
*(903) 292-3713 (Cell)*
*(903) 603-9955 (Skype)*
*contradancetx.com <http://www.contradancetx.com>*
*www.zazzle.com/fuzzycozy* <http://www.zazzle.com/fuzzycozy*> (Dance
buttons, t-shirts, & more)*
_______________________________________________
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3 Oct
3 Oct
11:50 p.m.
Thanks everyone for your replies!
I like the "slide" language approach and plan to work on that for next time.
I'm less fond of the sashay term in this application as, IMHO, contra
dancers don't know what it is. With groups that do a "Roll Away with a Half
Sashay" and even when callers prompt the full sequence, it usually comes
out more like "ROLL AWAY, with a half sashay" (almost inhaling the last
bit). In my experience, overall the language seems to have evolved to more
just saying who rolls whom and the rest is expected, just a part of the
"Roll Away". The instances of a separate Sashay are extremely rare, so
working to get them to understand the sashay itself would be another
incremental step.
BTW, that's why in this recent dance of mine I call the A2 move a slide:
*Feeling Gravity’s Pull – DI – Don Veino 20180710*
A1
Neighbor Gypsy, Swing
A2
Gents Swap Places (passing left) and face out
Gents Loop Left *WHILE* Ladies Slide Left+ (so each move into Partner’s
place)
(inside hands) Ladies Gate the Gents 1x
[+Alternative for the Ladies here: Walk forward on the slight left diagonal
to bounce back into the left hand position next to Partner Gent]
B1
Pass Through across, Partner Swing
B2
Gents pass Left for a Full Hey (EXCEPT Ladies Bounce Back the FIRST time)
More at http://veino.com/blog/?p=2179
Thanks,
Don
2024
days inactive
2034
days old
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
11 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
Don Veino -
Folk Dance -
John Sweeney -
Linda S. Mrosko -
Maia McCormick -
Read Weaver -
Rich Sbardella -
Yoyo Zhou