22 Sep
2011
22 Sep
'11
5:07 p.m.
We are a college town - Gainesville FL - and have had very few young people
until recently when a committed contra dancer moved here from SC to go to
school and came to dance with us. She started a club on campus and now we
have dances on campus as well as our regular dances and are having a good
turnout of all ages to all the dances.
It was a little slow at first. The on-campus dances would have more
"geezers" than young people, but as long as there were several young people,
that was enough to keep them interested and coming back. The thing that got
the most young people coming was the techno contra. We would always have
techno contra at the break with blacklight and mirror balls and glow-stick
bracelets, etc. Last month, they held their first all techno dance and had
100 people, many from other universities across the state.
The young folks are coming up with all kinds of great ideas now. One guy is
in a fraternity and they are going to require their new pledges to come to a
contra dance in a skirt.
We also have a young person who is becoming a really fine caller and also
young musicians. We try as often as is possible to get the young caller and
band for the campus dance. For the others, we are looking at the most
high-energy bands. One band plays a medley of Beatles tunes that is always
a hit. Others have electric guitars, or other electronic instruments that
interest the young people.
Early on, we talked about a flash-mob on campus, but all agreed that it
would be counter productive if all the flash mob participants were
"geezers." We might as well hang up a sign that said: "Demonstration of
what you wouldn't be caught DEAD doing this weekend!!!" If you're going to
do a flash-mob to attract young people, you must have young people doing it!
I love the "ants-pants-contra dance" idea! We'll use that on campus!
One thing that I am very pleased about is that our dances are now truly
inter-generational. We have children through seniors and everyone dances
with everyone.
--
JoLaine Jones-Pokorney
"We are as gods and might as well get good at it!"
- Stewart Brand
22 Sep
22 Sep
9:39 p.m.
New subject: require their new pledges to come to a contra dance in a skirt
On Sep 22, 2011, at 1:07 PM, JoLaine Jones-Pokorney wrote:
The young folks are coming up with all kinds of great
ideas now. One guy is
in a fraternity and they are going to require their new pledges to come to a
contra dance in a skirt.
I think this is a really bad idea, should be discouraged, and am disappointed that others
haven't commented on it before me.
Here you have worked to have a safe community in which people feel OK to flirt, dance with
each other as partners, and some men feel comfortable dancing in skirts. See Contra and
Contradiction: Gender and Agency Within a Social Dance Community by Shaina Kapeluck
(http://www.warren-wilson.edu/~socanth/students/studentresearch06.html) for more info.
Now you add new attendees who are being forced to wear skits. What messages does this
send to people? Why would you want a fraternity to use your dance for this purpose?
In Massachusetts out anti-hazing law says:
The term ‘hazing’ shall mean any conduct or method of initiation into any student
organization, whether on public or private property, which willfully or recklessly
endangers the physical or mental health of any student or other person. Such conduct shall
include whipping, beating, branding, forced calisthenics, exposure to the weather, forced
consumption of any food, liquor, beverage, drug or other substance, or any other brutal
treatment or forced physical activity which is likely to adversely affect the physical
health or safety of any such student or other person, or which subjects such student or
other person to extreme mental stress, including extended deprivation of sleep or rest or
extended isolation.
At MIT we square dance for PE and have to follow this:
Each group, team or organization shall distribute a copy of the law to each of its
members, plebes, pledges or applicants for membership. It shall be the duty of each such
group, team or organization, acting through its designated officers, to deliver annually,
to the Division of Student Life [with exception of varsity teams and club sports who may
deliver acknowledgements to the Department of Athletics, Physical Education and
Recreation] an acknowledgement stating that such group, team, or organization has received
a copy of the law, that each of its members, plebes, pledges or applicants understands and
agrees to comply with the provisions of the law. Copies of the law are available at the
Office of The Dean for Student Life and the Department of Athletics, Physical Education
and Recreation.
I am disappointed that making guys dress up in skirts and attend a contra dance probably
doesn't count as hazing -- I think it should. At my daughter's school
(http://sudval.org/) no one can infringe on your right to peaceably exist and receive an
education. More than a few students were brought up for violating this rule as it takes a
while for kids to get their head around it. However, it seems we would all be better off
if everyone followed that rule.
--
Clark Baker, Belmont, MA
cmbaker(a)tiac.net
9:48 p.m.
New subject: require their new pledges to come to a contra dance in a skirt
On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 17:39, Clark Baker <cmbaker(a)tiac.net> wrote:
On Sep 22, 2011, at 1:07 PM, JoLaine Jones-Pokorney wrote:
Clark has a very good point here. Why anyone would want to willingly
be part of a hazing is beyond me.
Most likely this is being done because, in the long tradition of
fraternity initiation rituals, it's seen as a forced “gender
reversal”. This is not what it's about for most of our local male
contra dancers who wear skirts. Rather than creating a safe space
where it's okay to do what they want, it will more likely make
regulars at the dance uncomfortable.
The young folks are coming up with all kinds of
great ideas now. One guy is
in a fraternity and they are going to require their new pledges to come to a
contra dance in a skirt.
I think this is a really bad idea, should be discouraged, and am disappointed that others
haven't commented on it before me. 
23 Sep
23 Sep
4:36 a.m.
New subject: require their new pledges to come to a contra dance in a skirt
Just a note, nobody is actually being 'forced' to wear a skirt. The frat pledges
are CHOOSING to undergo that ritual to get something they want (membership in the
fraternity). They can bow out at any time. A little harmless and humorous gender
reversal (something we normally encourage on the contra dance floor) is leagues different
from the kind of physical bodily harm described in the Massachusetts law. Whipping,
beating, branding, and ... skirts?
I assume we can all agree that no man is actually harmed or scarred by wearing a skirt,
since many choose to do so on their own? And we can also agree that the proposed
fraternity ritual doesn't actually pose a threat to any regular dancer's enjoyment
of the dance, since we dance with men in skirts all the time?
We can get upset about the pledges in skirts and try to exclude these kids (and I am not
sure how that could be done, in practice), or we can recognize that when we welcome young
people to the dance they bring with them a few things we older folk might not -- such as
techno contra and a sense of humor that includes frat pledges dancing in skirts. I think
it would be better to lighten up and welcome the youngsters.
Jon Southard
Santa Barbara, California
www.jonsouthard.com
-----Original Message-----
From: callers-bounces(a)sharedweight.net [mailto:callers-bounces@sharedweight.net] On Behalf
Of Clark Baker
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 2:40 PM
To: Caller's discussion list
Subject: [Callers] require their new pledges to come to a contra dance in a skirt
[bcc][faked-from]
On Sep 22, 2011, at 1:07 PM, JoLaine Jones-Pokorney wrote:
The young folks are coming up with all kinds of great
ideas now. One guy is
in a fraternity and they are going to require their new pledges to come to a
contra dance in a skirt.
I think this is a really bad idea, should be discouraged, and am disappointed that others
haven't commented on it before me.
Here you have worked to have a safe community in which people feel OK to flirt, dance with
each other as partners, and some men feel comfortable dancing in skirts. See Contra and
Contradiction: Gender and Agency Within a Social Dance Community by Shaina Kapeluck
(http://www.warren-wilson.edu/~socanth/students/studentresearch06.html) for more info.
Now you add new attendees who are being forced to wear skits. What messages does this
send to people? Why would you want a fraternity to use your dance for this purpose?
In Massachusetts out anti-hazing law says:
The term 'hazing' shall mean any conduct or method of initiation into any student
organization, whether on public or private property, which willfully or recklessly
endangers the physical or mental health of any student or other person. Such conduct shall
include whipping, beating, branding, forced calisthenics, exposure to the weather, forced
consumption of any food, liquor, beverage, drug or other substance, or any other brutal
treatment or forced physical activity which is likely to adversely affect the physical
health or safety of any such student or other person, or which subjects such student or
other person to extreme mental stress, including extended deprivation of sleep or rest or
extended isolation.
At MIT we square dance for PE and have to follow this:
Each group, team or organization shall distribute a copy of the law to each of its
members, plebes, pledges or applicants for membership. It shall be the duty of each such
group, team or organization, acting through its designated officers, to deliver annually,
to the Division of Student Life [with exception of varsity teams and club sports who may
deliver acknowledgements to the Department of Athletics, Physical Education and
Recreation] an acknowledgement stating that such group, team, or organization has received
a copy of the law, that each of its members, plebes, pledges or applicants understands and
agrees to comply with the provisions of the law. Copies of the law are available at the
Office of The Dean for Student Life and the Department of Athletics, Physical Education
and Recreation.
I am disappointed that making guys dress up in skirts and attend a contra dance probably
doesn't count as hazing -- I think it should. At my daughter's school
(http://sudval.org/) no one can infringe on your right to peaceably exist and receive an
education. More than a few students were brought up for violating this rule as it takes a
while for kids to get their head around it. However, it seems we would all be better off
if everyone followed that rule.
--
Clark Baker, Belmont, MA
cmbaker(a)tiac.net
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
7:56 a.m.
New subject: require their new pledges to come to a contra dance in a skirt
Jon Southard wrote:
Just a note, nobody is actually being 'forced'
to wear a skirt. The frat
pledges are CHOOSING to undergo that ritual to get
something they want
(membership in the fraternity). They can bow out at any time. A little
harmless and humorous gender reversal (something we normally encourage on the
contra dance floor) is leagues different from the kind of physical bodily harm
described in the Massachusetts law. Whipping, beating, branding, and ...
skirts?
That's specious, given that frat pledges have agreed to accept rituals that do
mess them up badly (physical injury, alcohol poisoning, etc). You say they're
not forced to wear a skirt; well, they weren't forced to accept being beaten by
a gauntlet of upperclassmen with paddles, but they did.
The problem folks are seeing with this is that the intent of the _frat_ is that
wearing a skirt in public is doing a bad/embarrassing thing and therefore
involves the pledge making a sacrifice (of dignity or of being perceived as a
manly man). If wearing a skirt were really no big deal to the frst, there'd be
no point for them in having the pledge do it.
I assume we can all agree that no man is actually
harmed or scarred by
wearing a skirt, since many choose to do so on their own?
You assume incorrectly (and reason speciously). Many people (small percentage,
but fairly large in absolute numbers) choose to get beaten, pierced, or even
branded on their own. That doesn't make it not harmful to beat, pierce or
brand someone who didn't choose to do it on their own. Whether they're really
harmed by the act of wearing a skirt or whether all the risk and humiliation is
entirely in their heads - which is where humiliation lives, anyway - is another
question.
And we can also agree that the proposed fraternity
ritual doesn't actually
pose a threat to any regular dancer's enjoyment of
the dance, since we dance
with men in skirts all the time?
No. (At least, if I knew that the dance I enjoyed attending was being posited
as a place of ritual humiliation, and if there were people at the dance who
felt they were being humiliated, and who didn't want to be there and weren't
enjoying it, that would be a threat to my enjoyment of the dance.)
We can get upset about the pledges in skirts and try
to exclude these kids
(and I am not sure how that could be done, in practice), or we
can recognize
that when we welcome young people to the dance they bring with them a few
things we older folk might not -- such as techno contra and a sense of humor
that includes frat pledges dancing in skirts. I think it would be better to
lighten up and welcome the youngsters.
I think you've misconstrued the whole issue. Hazing frat pledges - while done
by and to youth, certainly - isn't a matter of youth having a sense of humor
which old fuddy-duddies ought to lighten up about. it's old-school, man. And
humiliating boys by making them wear skirts in public is old-fashioned and
dysfunctional. I agree that there's not only no practical way to exclude the
pledges in skirts but that doing so would be playing into the frat's hands,
since then they'd not only be wearing skirts in public, they'd be getting
barred at the door for wearing skirts in public - also a public rejection and
humiliation.
If anything, I think the dance ought to jujitsu the whole thing. When the boys
come in the door, welcome them; girls should ask them to dance in a friendly
way and treat them just the same as first-time dancers in pants. Make them not
feel not humiliated but embraced, and embraced as presumably straight men.
This has the advantage of also being the right thing to do even if the frat
doesn't have archaic gender attitudes and isn't make the pledges do it to
humiliate them.
-- Alan
--
===============================================================================
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Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056
Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025
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4 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing -
Charles Hannum -
Clark Baker -
JoLaine Jones-Pokorney -
Jon Southard