24 Oct
2015
24 Oct
'15
3:12 a.m.
Hello All,
I taught a dance this evening that included a ladies' gypsy. I received the
email below a few minutes ago. In teaching it I wanted to convey that it is
a flirty, eye contact sort of move. This person was obviously offended. I
am at a loss for how to respond, except to apologize for offending.
I'm pretty sure I described the move accurately. I meant absolutely no
offense. I didn't make up the name for the move, but don't want to make
excuses. Does this move need a new name? How would you respond?
-Amy
Seattle
Begin forwarded message:
*Subject:* *First time at your event*
This evening, I came to one of your dances for the first time. I was
impressed by the friendliness of the dancers, the quality of the musicians,
and the overall fun of the dance.
And then we got to a dance in which we were told we would be learning a
step named after an offensive term for Romani people. And I felt
uncomfortable. And then when the step was taught, it became clear that the
term was so named based on stereotypes of Romani women as being overly
sexual. And I became more uncomfortable.
I assume that this was not done maliciously, but rather out of an
unawareness of the ways that that term has been used to denigrate Romani
people throughout history (much the same way that many other racial slurs
have been used in the past by well-meaning people before they became aware
that those terms were hurtful and harmful to those disadvantaged groups).
Nonetheless, it felt shockingly offensive to me, all the more so in the
context of a community that appeared to be so welcoming and accepting.
Until that point, I had a very enjoyable time dancing at your event. I've
been a dancer in a variety of communities for many years now, and aside
from that issue, this was probably the best first experience I've had when
meeting a new dance community. It was a shame that some presumably
unintentional racial insensitivity had to ruin what was otherwise such a
positive experience.
24 Oct
24 Oct
5:17 a.m.
"Gypsy" comes from Cecil Sharp, when he was trying to name a figure that
appeared in the literature of two dancers going around each other.
My hearsay understanding is that he named it after some Romani dances he
knew of where partners didn't touch each other.
-Chris Page
San Diego, CA
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 12:12 AM, Amy Wimmer via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hello All,
I taught a dance this evening that included a ladies' gypsy. I received
the email below a few minutes ago. In teaching it I wanted to convey that
it is a flirty, eye contact sort of move. This person was obviously
offended. I am at a loss for how to respond, except to apologize for
offending.
I'm pretty sure I described the move accurately. I meant absolutely no
offense. I didn't make up the name for the move, but don't want to make
excuses. Does this move need a new name? How would you respond?
-Amy
Seattle
Begin forwarded message:
*Subject:* *First time at your event*
This evening, I came to one of your dances for the first time. I was
impressed by the friendliness of the dancers, the quality of the musicians,
and the overall fun of the dance.
And then we got to a dance in which we were told we would be learning a
step named after an offensive term for Romani people. And I felt
uncomfortable. And then when the step was taught, it became clear that the
term was so named based on stereotypes of Romani women as being overly
sexual. And I became more uncomfortable.
I assume that this was not done maliciously, but rather out of an
unawareness of the ways that that term has been used to denigrate Romani
people throughout history (much the same way that many other racial slurs
have been used in the past by well-meaning people before they became aware
that those terms were hurtful and harmful to those disadvantaged groups).
Nonetheless, it felt shockingly offensive to me, all the more so in the
context of a community that appeared to be so welcoming and accepting.
Until that point, I had a very enjoyable time dancing at your event. I've
been a dancer in a variety of communities for many years now, and aside
from that issue, this was probably the best first experience I've had when
meeting a new dance community. It was a shame that some presumably
unintentional racial insensitivity had to ruin what was otherwise such a
positive experience.
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
10:32 a.m.
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 5:17 AM, Chris Page via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
"Gypsy" comes from Cecil Sharp, when he was
trying to name a figure that
appeared in the literature of two dancers going around each other.
My hearsay understanding is that he named it after some Romani dances he
knew of where partners didn't touch each other.
Sharp called the figure "Whole-Gip" in The Country Dance Book Part II,
and seems to have taken the name from Morris:
The figures which occur in the course of the dances described in
"The Dancing Master" are very varied and very numerous. With the
exception of the Set, the Side, and the Honour, and others of a like
character, all of which are essentially Country dance figures, I have
been able to connect nearly all of them with similar evolutions in the
Morris or Sword dances. The Whole-Poussette and, of course, the Roll,
are sword-dance figures, and I believe that all those Country Dance
figures, in which an arch is made by the joining of hands,
handkerchiefs, or ribbons, were originally derived from the same
source. Other evolutions such as Whole-Gip, Back-to-Back, Cross-over,
Foot-up, Corners, etc., are familiar Morris figures.
If anyone knows where to look for how Morris dancers got "gip" I'd be
very curious.
http://www.jefftk.com/p/history-of-the-term-gypsy
5:47 p.m.
Jeff Kauffman referred us to:
That page mentions Playford's 1651 description of the
dance "Cuckolds all a row," which includes the directions:
..., goe about the Co. We. not turning your faces.
..., goe about your owne not turning faces.
[I'm using spelling from
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/playford_1651/074small.html
Jeff's page seems to have facsimilie pages of a different
edition.]
Jeff writes that
Sharp interpreted this section as a series of
whole-gips,
where "whole-gip" is a figure from Morris dancing, and noted
that this leaves us with the question of how the Morris figure
got that name.
Let me point out that the 1651 edition of Playford also
includes a dance titled "The Spanish Jeepsie" (listed as
"Spanish Jepsies" in the contents). This dance has a similar
figure to the one in "Cuckolds all a row":
... go all about your We. not turning your faces. ...
In fact the second and third parts of "The Spanish Jeepsie"
have
... go about your own as before ...
So the figure occurs more often in that dance than it does in
"Cuckolds all a row".
I don't know of (and haven't looked for) any specific evidence
linking "The Spanish Jeepsie" to the terms "half-gip" and
"whole-gip" in Morris dancing. I also don't know of (and
haven't looked for) any evidence linking the choreography of
"The Spanish Jeepsie" to anything that occurs in traditional
Romani dancing (or it traditional Spanish dancing).
None of this historical stuff helps with the issue of the term
"gypsy" causing offence of with the task of picking a preferable
term. One thing I think I can safely predict is that those who
are offended by the term "gypsy" would be even more offended by
"gip" (pronounced the same as "gyp", meaning to swindle).
--Jim
> On Oct 24, 2015, at 7:32 AM, Jeff Kaufman via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 5:17 AM, Chris Page via Callers
> <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> "Gypsy" comes from Cecil Sharp, when he was trying to name a figure
that
>> appeared in the literature of two dancers going around each other.
>>
>> My hearsay understanding is that he named it after some Romani dances he
>> knew of where partners didn't touch each other.
>>
>
> Sharp called the figure "Whole-Gip" in The Country Dance Book Part II,
> and seems to have taken the name from Morris:
>
> The figures which occur in the course of the dances described in
> "The Dancing Master" are very varied and very numerous. With the
> exception of the Set, the Side, and the Honour, and others of a like
> character, all of which are essentially Country dance figures, I have
> been able to connect nearly all of them with similar evolutions in the
> Morris or Sword dances. The Whole-Poussette and, of course, the Roll,
> are sword-dance figures, and I believe that all those Country Dance
> figures, in which an arch is made by the joining of hands,
> handkerchiefs, or ribbons, were originally derived from the same
> source. Other evolutions such as Whole-Gip, Back-to-Back, Cross-over,
> Foot-up, Corners, etc., are familiar Morris figures.
>
> If anyone knows where to look for how Morris dancers got "gip" I'd be
> very curious.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
25 Oct
25 Oct
1:32 a.m.
See the link below for more information on the dance The Spanish Gypsy (or
Jeepsie), the song from which the tune for the dance came, and the 1623
play from which the song came, which had the title "The Spanish Gypsy".
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/lod/vol4/spanish_gipsy.html
I'll go out on a limb and make some historical pronouncements which cannot
be proven, but which seem most probable to me:
The dance title The Spanish Gypsy came from the dance being done to a tune
associated with the play The Spanish Gypsy.
The dance figure Gypsy got its name from the prevalence of the figure in
the dance The Spanish Gypsy.
The Morris dance figures whole-gyp and half-gyp were originally called
whole-gypsy and half-gypsy. (Although parts of England had and ancient
tradition of seasonal dancing under the name Morris Dance, it seems likely,
from the nature of the dances, that the form of the Cotswold dance
traditions collected by Cecil Sharp only went back to the Elizabethan
period.)
I offer the above hypotheses to counter the claim that the dance term
"gypsy" was based on an ethnic stereotype. Of course, even if I'm right
about these hypotheses, they have nothing to do with the fact that the term
"gypsy" offends some people, which we want to avoid.
Jacob
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 5:47 PM, James Saxe via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Let me point out that the 1651 edition of Playford also
includes a dance titled "The Spanish Jeepsie" (listed as
"Spanish Jepsies" in the contents). This dance has a similar
figure to the one in "Cuckolds all a row":
... go all about your We. not turning your faces. ...
In fact the second and third parts of "The Spanish Jeepsie"
have
... go about your own as before ...
So the figure occurs more often in that dance than it does in
"Cuckolds all a row".
I don't know of (and haven't looked for) any specific evidence
linking "The Spanish Jeepsie" to the terms "half-gip" and
"whole-gip" in Morris dancing. I also don't know of (and
haven't looked for) any evidence linking the choreography of
"The Spanish Jeepsie" to anything that occurs in traditional
Romani dancing (or it traditional Spanish dancing).
26 Oct
26 Oct
4:40 a.m.
On 10/24/15 10:32 PM, Jacob Nancy Bloom via Callers wrote:
See the link below for more information on the dance
The Spanish Gypsy
(or Jeepsie), the song from which the tune for the dance came, and the
1623 play from which the song came, which had the title "The Spanish
Gypsy".
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/lod/vol4/spanish_gipsy.html
<http://www.pbm.com/%7Elindahl/lod/vol4/spanish_gipsy.html>
I'll go out on a limb and make some historical pronouncements which
cannot be proven, but which seem most probable to me:
The dance title The Spanish Gypsy came from the dance being done to a
tune associated with the play The Spanish Gypsy.
Sure, extremely plausible.
The dance figure Gypsy got its name from the
prevalence of the figure
in the dance The Spanish Gypsy.
If true, only true in the modern revival. (Basically, Cecil Sharp made
up *and named* the Gypsy figure. In Spanish Jeepsie - reconstructed at
the link you have above- the figure isn't a gypsy, and it isn't called a
gypsy. It's a back to back.)
Point me toward dance notation published before 1900 that uses the term
"gypsy" as the name of a figure, and then we can talk. Until there's
some evidence that Elizabethan dancers used the figure name, your
argument dies here.
The Morris dance figures whole-gyp and half-gyp were
originally called
whole-gypsy and half-gypsy. (Although parts of England had and
ancient tradition of seasonal dancing under the name Morris Dance, it
seems likely, from the nature of the dances, that the form of the
Cotswold dance traditions collected by Cecil Sharp only went back to
the Elizabethan period.)
I think you're saying that Cotswold dances as collected by Sharp and
others reflected Elizabethan country dances as shown in Playford, and
that whole-gyp and half-gyp were therefore originally named after the
(notional) country dance figure and were thus properly named whole-gypsy
and half-gypsy. Please correct me if I've misunderstood this.
This is irrelevant unless you can show that Elizabethan country dance
actually had a figure called gypsy, which you haven't. (And it's
actually irrelevant even if you can, since once you draw a line from the
play to the tune to the dance you've said what you can about it not
being an ethnic stereotype.)
But if it *were* relevant, I'd ask you to explain why these
Playford-following Elizabethan morris dancers used "half-gypsy" for what
Playford called "sides all".
-- Alan
10:36 a.m.
Well, now we've moved on from political correctness to dance interpretation
(reconstruction) I have some interest in the matter.
On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 01:40:18 -0700, Alan Winston via Callers wrote:
�Basically, Cecil Sharp made up *and named* the Gypsy
figure.
Are you sure he didn't get it from the Morris dancers he collected the dances from?
�In Spanish Jeepsie - reconstructed at the link you
have above- the
�figure isn't a gypsy, and it isn't called a gypsy. �It's a back to
�back.
That's their interpretation, but I'm not sure it's correct.
I've been working on a web page about this figure, and the discussion has inspired me
to do more to it. See what you think.
http://colinhume.com/degipsy.htm
Colin Hume
3:48 p.m.
On 10/26/15 7:36 AM, Colin Hume via Callers wrote:
Interesting, as always. (I did acknowledge in my long screed that there
were multiple interpretations of the text that's being considered to be
a gypsy.)
-- Alan
Well, now we've moved on from political
correctness to dance interpretation (reconstruction) I have some interest in the matter.
On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 01:40:18 -0700, Alan Winston via Callers wrote:
I always enjoy it when somebody says: "I'm comprehensively wrong but my
point still stands." So, I'm comprehensively wrong:
- Sharp didn't use the term gypsy in the Country Dance Books, and now I
don't even know how we started using it as a country dance figure name.
- I didn't know morris dancers used "gypsy" rather than "gyp", as
you
say on the web page. (This isn't even evidence, really, but in my 20+
years dancing morris in the US I never heard "gypsy" rather than "gyp"
or "gip".) (In my long screed earlier, I did say that I thought Sharp
(or whoever) probably got it from morris.)
But my point still stands:
Defining "gypsy" as a country dance figure is an act of imagination or
creation. (That's what I meant by "made up".) Unless you can present a
historical country dance source that uses the figure by name, there's no
reason to think that the figure was called that, or that the figure name
was in common use, which makes it a considerable stretch that it
contemporaneously picked up the name from the Spanish Jeepsie dance, and
that would seem to make it vanishingly unlikely that morris dancers
picked up the name from country dancing.
�Basically, Cecil Sharp made up *and named* the
Gypsy figure.
Are you sure he didn't get it from the Morris dancers he
collected the dances from?
�In Spanish
Jeepsie - reconstructed at the link you have above- the
�figure isn't a gypsy, and it isn't called a gypsy. �It's a back to
�back.
That's their interpretation, but I'm not sure it's correct.
I've been working on a web page about this figure, and the discussion has inspired me
to do more to it. See what you think.
http://colinhume.com/degipsy.htm
6:51 p.m.
On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:48:00 -0700, Alan Winston via Callers wrote:
I didn't know morris dancers used
"gypsy" rather than "gyp", as you
say on the web page.
Alan -
I don't believe I say that. I say that Sharp's handwritten notes use
the word "gipsies", and I give links to prove it. I agree that morris
dancers use "gyp".
Colin Hume
7 p.m.
Apologies for putting words in your mouth. I misunderstood what you
were saying.
-- Alan
On 10/26/2015 3:51 PM, Colin Hume via Callers wrote:
On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:48:00 -0700, Alan Winston via
Callers wrote:
I didn't know morris dancers used
"gypsy" rather than "gyp", as you
say on the web page.
Alan -
I don't believe I say that. I say that Sharp's handwritten notes use
the word "gipsies", and I give links to prove it. I agree that morris
dancers use "gyp".
Colin Hume
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27 Oct
27 Oct
11:20 a.m.
This has been a fascinating and edifying conversation regarding how and
when to use the term. At the risk of getting too deep in the philosophical
questions regarding use of the word "gypsy," I have a sincere and seriously
non-loaded question about what conditions must be met in order to justify
removing it from our calling vocabulary. Of course I acknowledge that when
use of a pointed term meant to represent a certain group of people is
deemed by that group of people to be offensive, then care should be taken
to eliminate use of such a word (the Washington, D.C. football team comes
to mind). There is no alternate etymology to that term other than the
reference to Native Americans (well, unless their helmets had always
featured red-skinned potatoes, of course). But now, in playing devil's
advocate I ask: doesn't context and origin matter for "gypsy"? Isn't
the
etymology of the term's use in contra dancing relevant to whether it can
rightfully be cast aside for being an offensive term?
To those who say it doesn't, then how do we reconcile that with offensive
terms or displays that have similar outputs that arose completely
independently? For example:
- The four-pointed star common in Jainism is frequently mistaken for a
swastika.
- The garb of the "Nazarenos" in Spain look identical to the KKK.
- Geologists liberally use the term "dike/dyke" for a relatively common
rock formation.
- Cracks or fissures in/on surfaces are commonly called "chinks."
- The term "fob" is widely used for certain types of rings on key chains.
If we agree that all of these displays and uses are legitimate and
appropriate for continued use, then doesn't the history of "gypsy" in
contra dancing matter? Or does the surficial cause of offense warrant
elimination? Not trying to weasel out of the situation here, but rather
genuinely trying to refine the precise reasoning behind decisions in contra
vocabulary. Curious about any/all perspectives on this -- thanks!
Sargon
On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 7:00 PM, Winston, Alan P. via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Apologies for putting words in your mouth. I
misunderstood what you were
saying.
-- Alan
On 10/26/2015 3:51 PM, Colin Hume via Callers wrote:
On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:48:00 -0700, Alan Winston
via Callers wrote:
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I didn't know morris dancers used
"gypsy" rather than "gyp", as you
say on the web page.
Alan -
I don't believe I say that. I say that Sharp's handwritten notes use
the word "gipsies", and I give links to prove it. I agree that morris
dancers use "gyp".
Colin Hume
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
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11:41 a.m.
Since "gypsy" as a contra/ECD term almost certainly refers to Romani, it
differs from say, geological terms or whatnot. The swastika is a sad thing,
because the Nazis basically ruined it, even though they use a reverse
direction version.
That said, I'm not endorsing or not endorsing the change to the "gypsy"
move, just stating that there are some clear differences.
On Oct 27, 2015 11:20 AM, "Sargon de Jesus via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
This has been a fascinating and edifying conversation
regarding how and
when to use the term. At the risk of getting too deep in the philosophical
questions regarding use of the word "gypsy," I have a sincere and seriously
non-loaded question about what conditions must be met in order to justify
removing it from our calling vocabulary. Of course I acknowledge that when
use of a pointed term meant to represent a certain group of people is
deemed by that group of people to be offensive, then care should be taken
to eliminate use of such a word (the Washington, D.C. football team comes
to mind). There is no alternate etymology to that term other than the
reference to Native Americans (well, unless their helmets had always
featured red-skinned potatoes, of course). But now, in playing devil's
advocate I ask: doesn't context and origin matter for "gypsy"? Isn't
the
etymology of the term's use in contra dancing relevant to whether it can
rightfully be cast aside for being an offensive term?
To those who say it doesn't, then how do we reconcile that with offensive
terms or displays that have similar outputs that arose completely
independently? For example:
- The four-pointed star common in Jainism is frequently mistaken for a
swastika.
- The garb of the "Nazarenos" in Spain look identical to the KKK.
- Geologists liberally use the term "dike/dyke" for a relatively common
rock formation.
- Cracks or fissures in/on surfaces are commonly called "chinks."
- The term "fob" is widely used for certain types of rings on key chains.
If we agree that all of these displays and uses are legitimate and
appropriate for continued use, then doesn't the history of "gypsy" in
contra dancing matter? Or does the surficial cause of offense warrant
elimination? Not trying to weasel out of the situation here, but rather
genuinely trying to refine the precise reasoning behind decisions in contra
vocabulary. Curious about any/all perspectives on this -- thanks!
Sargon
On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 7:00 PM, Winston, Alan P. via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Apologies for putting words in your mouth. I
misunderstood what you were
saying.
-- Alan
On 10/26/2015 3:51 PM, Colin Hume via Callers wrote:
_______________________________________________
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On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:48:00 -0700, Alan Winston
via Callers wrote:
_______________________________________________
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I didn't know morris dancers used
"gypsy" rather than "gyp", as you
say on the web page.
Alan -
I don't believe I say that. I say that Sharp's handwritten notes use
the word "gipsies", and I give links to prove it. I agree that morris
dancers use "gyp".
Colin Hume
_______________________________________________
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12:02 p.m.
I've been reading all the historical origins discussion. It's seems to me we are
far from concluding that the term 'gypsy' is associated with Romani people. We
have that Cecil Sharp probably heard Morris Dancers using whole and half gip, and
appropriated the movement and term for broader use in country dance, apparently without
investigating origin. And we have a possible association between an Elizabethan? theater
production called the Spanish Gypsy, with a dance of similar name with movement that may
or may not be what we now call gypsy, but was not so named in said dance. We are all
assuming that at some point, someone was referring to the Roma, to their hands free dance,
to their gaze, or something, but we don't know.
That said, the trouble comes on situations like that Amy Wimmer encountered. People from
outside come in, and THEY make the assumption and association. And some feel it is not
politically correct, and take offense. We haven't heard of a case of Romani people
taking offense, presumably because we haven't had any attend a contra? That
doesn't make using the term ok, it just means we have no usable specific data.
Sargon's question therefore remains unanswered. What are the criteria for removing a
term from our vocabulary? What level of provable offense constitutes reason for removal?
Even if the answer is none, it's worth asking ourselves.
Andrea
Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask
On Oct 27, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Since "gypsy" as a contra/ECD term almost certainly refers to Romani, it
differs from say, geological terms or whatnot. The swastika is a sad thing, because the
Nazis basically ruined it, even though they use a reverse direction version.
That said, I'm not endorsing or not endorsing the change to the "gypsy"
move, just stating that there are some clear differences.
On Oct 27, 2015 11:20 AM, "Sargon de Jesus
via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
This has been a fascinating and edifying conversation regarding how and when to use the
term. At the risk of getting too deep in the philosophical questions regarding use of the
word "gypsy," I have a sincere and seriously non-loaded question about what
conditions must be met in order to justify removing it from our calling vocabulary. Of
course I acknowledge that when use of a pointed term meant to represent a certain group of
people is deemed by that group of people to be offensive, then care should be taken to
eliminate use of such a word (the Washington, D.C. football team comes to mind). There is
no alternate etymology to that term other than the reference to Native Americans (well,
unless their helmets had always featured red-skinned potatoes, of course). But now, in
playing devil's advocate I ask: doesn't context and origin matter for
"gypsy"? Isn't the etymology of the term's use in contra dancing
relevant to whether it can rightfully be cast aside for being an offensive term?
To those who say it doesn't, then how do we reconcile that with offensive terms or
displays that have similar outputs that arose completely independently? For example:
- The four-pointed star common in Jainism is frequently mistaken for a swastika.
- The garb of the "Nazarenos" in Spain look identical to the KKK.
- Geologists liberally use the term "dike/dyke" for a relatively common rock
formation.
- Cracks or fissures in/on surfaces are commonly called "chinks."
- The term "fob" is widely used for certain types of rings on key chains.
If we agree that all of these displays and uses are legitimate and appropriate for
continued use, then doesn't the history of "gypsy" in contra dancing matter?
Or does the surficial cause of offense warrant elimination? Not trying to weasel out of
the situation here, but rather genuinely trying to refine the precise reasoning behind
decisions in contra vocabulary. Curious about any/all perspectives on this -- thanks!
Sargon
_______________________________________________
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http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 7:00 PM, Winston, Alan P.
via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Apologies for putting words in your mouth. I misunderstood what you were saying.
-- Alan
_______________________________________________
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Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net On 10/26/2015 3:51 PM, Colin Hume via Callers
wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:48:00 -0700, Alan Winston via Callers wrote:
> I didn't know morris dancers used "gypsy" rather than "gyp",
as you
> say on the web page.
Alan -
I don't believe I say that. I say that Sharp's handwritten notes use
the word "gipsies", and I give links to prove it. I agree that morris
dancers use "gyp".
Colin Hume
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12:15 p.m.
I imagine there are some Romani organizations. A thought that I had was to contact them -
explaining the background of these dance forms, the use of the gypsy term, and the current
discussion and see what they say. It might be help decide how important it is to seek new
terminology.
John
On Oct 27, 2015, at 12:02 PM, Andrea Nettleton via
Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I've been reading all the historical origins discussion. It's seems to me we are
far from concluding that the term 'gypsy' is associated with Romani people. We
have that Cecil Sharp probably heard Morris Dancers using whole and half gip, and
appropriated the movement and term for broader use in country dance, apparently without
investigating origin. And we have a possible association between an Elizabethan? theater
production called the Spanish Gypsy, with a dance of similar name with movement that may
or may not be what we now call gypsy, but was not so named in said dance. We are all
assuming that at some point, someone was referring to the Roma, to their hands free dance,
to their gaze, or something, but we don't know.
That said, the trouble comes on situations like that Amy Wimmer encountered. People from
outside come in, and THEY make the assumption and association. And some feel it is not
politically correct, and take offense. We haven't heard of a case of Romani people
taking offense, presumably because we haven't had any attend a contra? That
doesn't make using the term ok, it just means we have no usable specific data.
Sargon's question therefore remains unanswered. What are the criteria for removing a
term from our vocabulary? What level of provable offense constitutes reason for removal?
Even if the answer is none, it's worth asking ourselves.
Andrea
Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask
On Oct 27, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Since "gypsy" as a contra/ECD term
almost certainly refers to Romani, it differs from say, geological terms or whatnot. The
swastika is a sad thing, because the Nazis basically ruined it, even though they use a
reverse direction version.
That said, I'm not endorsing or not endorsing the change to the "gypsy"
move, just stating that there are some clear differences.
On Oct 27, 2015 11:20 AM, "Sargon de Jesus via Callers"
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
wrote:
This has been a fascinating and edifying conversation regarding how and when to use the
term. At the risk of getting too deep in the philosophical questions regarding use of the
word "gypsy," I have a sincere and seriously non-loaded question about what
conditions must be met in order to justify removing it from our calling vocabulary. Of
course I acknowledge that when use of a pointed term meant to represent a certain group of
people is deemed by that group of people to be offensive, then care should be taken to
eliminate use of such a word (the Washington, D.C. football team comes to mind). There is
no alternate etymology to that term other than the reference to Native Americans (well,
unless their helmets had always featured red-skinned potatoes, of course). But now, in
playing devil's advocate I ask: doesn't context and origin matter for
"gypsy"? Isn't the etymology of the term's use in contra dancing
relevant to whether it can rightfully be cast aside for being an offensive term?
To those who say it doesn't, then how do we reconcile that with offensive terms or
displays that have similar outputs that arose completely independently? For example:
- The four-pointed star common in Jainism is frequently mistaken for a swastika.
- The garb of the "Nazarenos" in Spain look identical to the KKK.
- Geologists liberally use the term "dike/dyke" for a relatively common rock
formation.
- Cracks or fissures in/on surfaces are commonly called "chinks."
- The term "fob" is widely used for certain types of rings on key chains.
If we agree that all of these displays and uses are legitimate and appropriate for
continued use, then doesn't the history of "gypsy" in contra dancing matter?
Or does the surficial cause of offense warrant elimination? Not trying to weasel out of
the situation here, but rather genuinely trying to refine the precise reasoning behind
decisions in contra vocabulary. Curious about any/all perspectives on this -- thanks!
Sargon
On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 7:00 PM, Winston, Alan P. via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
wrote:
Apologies for putting words in your mouth. I misunderstood what you were saying.
-- Alan
On 10/26/2015 3:51 PM, Colin Hume via Callers wrote:
On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:48:00 -0700, Alan Winston via Callers wrote:
I didn't know morris dancers used "gypsy" rather than "gyp", as
you
say on the web page.
Alan -
I don't believe I say that. I say that Sharp's handwritten notes use
the word "gipsies", and I give links to prove it. I agree that morris
dancers use "gyp".
Colin Hume
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http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
<http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net>
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12:32 p.m.
Since we are all operating on assumptions here about what might or might not be offensive
to the Roma people, I have sent a question to "Voice of Roma"
(www.voiceofroma.com/) asking for their opinion as to whether our using the word gypsy for
the past century plus as a name for a dance move where two people walk around each other
while facing would be considered by them to be offensive or not. If they do feel it is
offensive, we can discuss alternates. If they respond that they do not find it offensive,
then I think we can continue to call the movement a gypsy. I am hoping that someone from
the site will be able to answer my question.
Martha
On Oct 27, 2015, at 9:15 AM, John W Gintell via Callers wrote:
I imagine there are some Romani organizations. A
thought that I had was to contact them - explaining the background of these dance forms,
the use of the gypsy term, and the current discussion and see what they say. It might be
help decide how important it is to seek new terminology.
John
On Oct 27, 2015, at 12:02 PM, Andrea Nettleton
via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I've been reading all the historical origins discussion. It's seems to me we are
far from concluding that the term 'gypsy' is associated with Romani people. We
have that Cecil Sharp probably heard Morris Dancers using whole and half gip, and
appropriated the movement and term for broader use in country dance, apparently without
investigating origin. And we have a possible association between an Elizabethan? theater
production called the Spanish Gypsy, with a dance of similar name with movement that may
or may not be what we now call gypsy, but was not so named in said dance. We are all
assuming that at some point, someone was referring to the Roma, to their hands free dance,
to their gaze, or something, but we don't know.
That said, the trouble comes on situations like that Amy Wimmer encountered. People from
outside come in, and THEY make the assumption and association. And some feel it is not
politically correct, and take offense. We haven't heard of a case of Romani people
taking offense, presumably because we haven't had any attend a contra? That
doesn't make using the term ok, it just means we have no usable specific data.
Sargon's question therefore remains unanswered. What are the criteria for removing a
term from our vocabulary? What level of provable offense constitutes reason for removal?
Even if the answer is none, it's worth asking ourselves.
Andrea
Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask
On Oct 27, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net Since "gypsy" as a contra/ECD term
almost certainly refers to Romani, it differs from say, geological terms or whatnot. The
swastika is a sad thing, because the Nazis basically ruined it, even though they use a
reverse direction version.
That said, I'm not endorsing or not endorsing the change to the "gypsy"
move, just stating that there are some clear differences.
On Oct 27, 2015 11:20 AM, "Sargon de Jesus via Callers"
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
This has been a fascinating and edifying conversation regarding how and when to use the
term. At the risk of getting too deep in the philosophical questions regarding use of the
word "gypsy," I have a sincere and seriously non-loaded question about what
conditions must be met in order to justify removing it from our calling vocabulary. Of
course I acknowledge that when use of a pointed term meant to represent a certain group of
people is deemed by that group of people to be offensive, then care should be taken to
eliminate use of such a word (the Washington, D.C. football team comes to mind). There is
no alternate etymology to that term other than the reference to Native Americans (well,
unless their helmets had always featured red-skinned potatoes, of course). But now, in
playing devil's advocate I ask: doesn't context and origin matter for
"gypsy"? Isn't the etymology of the term's use in contra dancing
relevant to whether it can rightfully be cast aside for being an offensive term?
To those who say it doesn't, then how do we reconcile that with offensive terms or
displays that have similar outputs that arose completely independently? For example:
- The four-pointed star common in Jainism is frequently mistaken for a swastika.
- The garb of the "Nazarenos" in Spain look identical to the KKK.
- Geologists liberally use the term "dike/dyke" for a relatively common rock
formation.
- Cracks or fissures in/on surfaces are commonly called "chinks."
- The term "fob" is widely used for certain types of rings on key chains.
If we agree that all of these displays and uses are legitimate and appropriate for
continued use, then doesn't the history of "gypsy" in contra dancing matter?
Or does the surficial cause of offense warrant elimination? Not trying to weasel out of
the situation here, but rather genuinely trying to refine the precise reasoning behind
decisions in contra vocabulary. Curious about any/all perspectives on this -- thanks!
Sargon
On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 7:00 PM, Winston, Alan P. via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Apologies for putting words in your mouth. I misunderstood what you were saying.
-- Alan
On 10/26/2015 3:51 PM, Colin Hume via Callers wrote:
On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:48:00 -0700, Alan Winston via Callers wrote:
I didn't know morris dancers used "gypsy" rather than "gyp", as
you
say on the web page.
Alan -
I don't believe I say that. I say that Sharp's handwritten notes use
the word "gipsies", and I give links to prove it. I agree that morris
dancers use "gyp".
Colin Hume
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
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_______________________________________________
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1:14 p.m.
Martha, thanks for this investigative work -- I'll be interested to hear
their response! But as Andrea mentions, my question doesn't pertain to
whether it's offensive to the Roma people (I think the original email
suggests that, on the surface, it most definitely is), but rather whether
drawing the connection directly to the Roma people is an appropriate leap
to make in the first place AND whether that should factor into its use or
disuse. Yes, the word is identical in its sound and spelling to a likely
offensive term, but could it just be a case of "convergent evolution"? If
so, it would be different from terms like "Indian file" that John mentions
in that it might not actually be invoking a link to the Roma people. Right
now, much of the conversation has revolved around the extent of offense and
mulling over alternatives -- but what if the term comes from a
bastardization of "hip," "grip," or "sees" - or some other
linguistic
oddity. Is establishing a link from contra usage to the Roma a necessary
first step? Maybe genuine offense is all we need, but I think that's worth
articulating the jumps we make before we eliminate the word on that basis.
And not to inject too many questions into this discussion, but it occurs to
me now that as callers our responsibility is to elicit specific reactions
out of our dancers in few words, while minimizing confusing or distracting
language. On the one hand, this suggests we should stray toward 100%
positive language and thus eliminate the word. On the other, suddenly using
a new word for a common figure would cause avoidable confusion in the vast
majority of dancers, all to account for what could be a red herring. I
really find this issue fascinatingly complex and without a clear right or
wrong yet.
On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 12:32 PM, Martha Wild via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Since we are all operating on assumptions here about
what might or might
not be offensive to the Roma people, I have sent a question to "Voice of
Roma" (www.*voiceofroma*.com/) asking for their opinion as to whether our
using the word gypsy for the past century plus as a name for a dance move
where two people walk around each other while facing would be considered by
them to be offensive or not. If they do feel it is offensive, we can
discuss alternates. If they respond that they do not find it offensive,
then I think we can continue to call the movement a gypsy. I am hoping that
someone from the site will be able to answer my question.
Martha
On Oct 27, 2015, at 9:15 AM, John W Gintell via Callers wrote:
I imagine there are some Romani organizations. A thought that I had was
to contact them - explaining the background of these dance forms, the use
of the gypsy term, and the current discussion and see what they say. It
might be help decide how important it is to seek new terminology.
John
On Oct 27, 2015, at 12:02 PM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I've been reading all the historical origins discussion. It's seems to me
we are far from concluding that the term 'gypsy' is associated with Romani
people. We have that Cecil Sharp probably heard Morris Dancers using whole
and half gip, and appropriated the movement and term for broader use in
country dance, apparently without investigating origin. And we have a
possible association between an Elizabethan? theater production called the
Spanish Gypsy, with a dance of similar name with movement that may or may
not be what we now call gypsy, but was not so named in said dance. We are
all assuming that at some point, someone was referring to the Roma, to
their hands free dance, to their gaze, or something, but we don't know.
That said, the trouble comes on situations like that Amy Wimmer
encountered. People from outside come in, and THEY make the assumption and
association. And some feel it is not politically correct, and take
offense. We haven't heard of a case of Romani people taking offense,
presumably because we haven't had any attend a contra? That doesn't make
using the term ok, it just means we have no usable specific data. Sargon's
question therefore remains unanswered. What are the criteria for removing
a term from our vocabulary? What level of provable offense constitutes
reason for removal? Even if the answer is none, it's worth asking
ourselves.
Andrea
Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask
On Oct 27, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Since "gypsy" as a contra/ECD term almost certainly refers to Romani, it
differs from say, geological terms or whatnot. The swastika is a sad thing,
because the Nazis basically ruined it, even though they use a reverse
direction version.
That said, I'm not endorsing or not endorsing the change to the "gypsy"
move, just stating that there are some clear differences.
On Oct 27, 2015 11:20 AM, "Sargon de Jesus via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
This has been a fascinating and edifying
conversation regarding how and
when to use the term. At the risk of getting too deep in the philosophical
questions regarding use of the word "gypsy," I have a sincere and seriously
non-loaded question about what conditions must be met in order to justify
removing it from our calling vocabulary. Of course I acknowledge that when
use of a pointed term meant to represent a certain group of people is
deemed by that group of people to be offensive, then care should be taken
to eliminate use of such a word (the Washington, D.C. football team comes
to mind). There is no alternate etymology to that term other than the
reference to Native Americans (well, unless their helmets had always
featured red-skinned potatoes, of course). But now, in playing devil's
advocate I ask: doesn't context and origin matter for "gypsy"? Isn't
the
etymology of the term's use in contra dancing relevant to whether it can
rightfully be cast aside for being an offensive term?
To those who say it doesn't, then how do we reconcile that with offensive
terms or displays that have similar outputs that arose completely
independently? For example:
- The four-pointed star common in Jainism is frequently mistaken for a
swastika.
- The garb of the "Nazarenos" in Spain look identical to the KKK.
- Geologists liberally use the term "dike/dyke" for a relatively common
rock formation.
- Cracks or fissures in/on surfaces are commonly called "chinks."
- The term "fob" is widely used for certain types of rings on key chains.
If we agree that all of these displays and uses are legitimate and
appropriate for continued use, then doesn't the history of "gypsy" in
contra dancing matter? Or does the surficial cause of offense warrant
elimination? Not trying to weasel out of the situation here, but rather
genuinely trying to refine the precise reasoning behind decisions in contra
vocabulary. Curious about any/all perspectives on this -- thanks!
Sargon
On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 7:00 PM, Winston, Alan P. via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
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_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
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Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
Apologies for putting words in your mouth. I
misunderstood what you
were saying.
-- Alan
On 10/26/2015 3:51 PM, Colin Hume via Callers wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________ On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:48:00 -0700, Alan Winston
via Callers wrote:
> I didn't know morris dancers used "gypsy" rather than "gyp",
as you
> say on the web page.
>
Alan -
I don't believe I say that. I say that Sharp's handwritten notes use
the word "gipsies", and I give links to prove it. I agree that morris
dancers use "gyp".
Colin Hume
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
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1:50 p.m.
This should be open and shut.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gypsy
The term, whether with a y or i vowel (remember, this is before Webster
invented the dictionary with standard spellings) is ~400 years old.
The burden of proof is thus on those who would say there's some other root
of the word where the Morris dancers got it.
On Oct 27, 2015 12:02 PM, "Andrea Nettleton" <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net>
wrote:
I've been reading all the historical origins
discussion. It's seems to me
we are far from concluding that the term 'gypsy' is associated with Romani
people. We have that Cecil Sharp probably heard Morris Dancers using whole
and half gip, and appropriated the movement and term for broader use in
country dance, apparently without investigating origin. And we have a
possible association between an Elizabethan? theater production called the
Spanish Gypsy, with a dance of similar name with movement that may or may
not be what we now call gypsy, but was not so named in said dance. We are
all assuming that at some point, someone was referring to the Roma, to
their hands free dance, to their gaze, or something, but we don't know.
That said, the trouble comes on situations like that Amy Wimmer
encountered. People from outside come in, and THEY make the assumption and
association. And some feel it is not politically correct, and take
offense. We haven't heard of a case of Romani people taking offense,
presumably because we haven't had any attend a contra? That doesn't make
using the term ok, it just means we have no usable specific data. Sargon's
question therefore remains unanswered. What are the criteria for removing
a term from our vocabulary? What level of provable offense constitutes
reason for removal? Even if the answer is none, it's worth asking
ourselves.
Andrea
Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask
On Oct 27, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Since "gypsy" as a contra/ECD term almost certainly refers to Romani, it
differs from say, geological terms or whatnot. The swastika is a sad thing,
because the Nazis basically ruined it, even though they use a reverse
direction version.
That said, I'm not endorsing or not endorsing the change to the "gypsy"
move, just stating that there are some clear differences.
On Oct 27, 2015 11:20 AM, "Sargon de Jesus via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
This has been a fascinating and edifying
conversation regarding how and
when to use the term. At the risk of getting too deep in the philosophical
questions regarding use of the word "gypsy," I have a sincere and seriously
non-loaded question about what conditions must be met in order to justify
removing it from our calling vocabulary. Of course I acknowledge that when
use of a pointed term meant to represent a certain group of people is
deemed by that group of people to be offensive, then care should be taken
to eliminate use of such a word (the Washington, D.C. football team comes
to mind). There is no alternate etymology to that term other than the
reference to Native Americans (well, unless their helmets had always
featured red-skinned potatoes, of course). But now, in playing devil's
advocate I ask: doesn't context and origin matter for "gypsy"? Isn't
the
etymology of the term's use in contra dancing relevant to whether it can
rightfully be cast aside for being an offensive term?
To those who say it doesn't, then how do we reconcile that with offensive
terms or displays that have similar outputs that arose completely
independently? For example:
- The four-pointed star common in Jainism is frequently mistaken for a
swastika.
- The garb of the "Nazarenos" in Spain look identical to the KKK.
- Geologists liberally use the term "dike/dyke" for a relatively common
rock formation.
- Cracks or fissures in/on surfaces are commonly called "chinks."
- The term "fob" is widely used for certain types of rings on key chains.
If we agree that all of these displays and uses are legitimate and
appropriate for continued use, then doesn't the history of "gypsy" in
contra dancing matter? Or does the surficial cause of offense warrant
elimination? Not trying to weasel out of the situation here, but rather
genuinely trying to refine the precise reasoning behind decisions in contra
vocabulary. Curious about any/all perspectives on this -- thanks!
Sargon
On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 7:00 PM, Winston, Alan P. via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
Apologies for putting words in your mouth. I
misunderstood what you
were saying.
-- Alan
On 10/26/2015 3:51 PM, Colin Hume via Callers wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________ On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:48:00 -0700, Alan Winston
via Callers wrote:
> I didn't know morris dancers used "gypsy" rather than "gyp",
as you
> say on the web page.
>
Alan -
I don't believe I say that. I say that Sharp's handwritten notes use
the word "gipsies", and I give links to prove it. I agree that morris
dancers use "gyp".
Colin Hume
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
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7:56 p.m.
I'm no philologist, but I don't think it's as open and shut as suggested.
While there is no proof the term derived from something other than in reference to the
people, there is equally no proof to the affirmative that it is named after those people.
Although it is indeed probable that it was named after the Roma people, mere coexistence
(or pre-existence) of the term doesn't confirm it's the source.
To keep things in perspective: On more than one occasion, I've heard contra dance
callers explained that an "allemande" comes from the French "à la
main" or "by the hand." However, that is apocryphal and the true origin is
from a reference to a German dance (in French, "Allemande"). Just because
something sounds logically consistent doesn't mean that's the true origin. I think
the fact that the term is shortened to "gip" in some contexts and spelled as
"jeepsies" in another leaves enough reasonable doubt that it could come from
other derivations. That said, it may need to be retired regardless.
On Oct 27, 2015, at 13:50, Ron Blechner
<contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote:
This should be open and shut.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gypsy
The term, whether with a y or i vowel (remember, this is before Webster invented the
dictionary with standard spellings) is ~400 years old.
The burden of proof is thus on those who would say there's some other root of the
word where the Morris dancers got it.
> On Oct 27, 2015 12:02 PM, "Andrea Nettleton"
<twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net> wrote:
> I've been reading all the historical origins discussion. It's seems to me we
are far from concluding that the term 'gypsy' is associated with Romani people.
We have that Cecil Sharp probably heard Morris Dancers using whole and half gip, and
appropriated the movement and term for broader use in country dance, apparently without
investigating origin. And we have a possible association between an Elizabethan? theater
production called the Spanish Gypsy, with a dance of similar name with movement that may
or may not be what we now call gypsy, but was not so named in said dance. We are all
assuming that at some point, someone was referring to the Roma, to their hands free dance,
to their gaze, or something, but we don't know.
> That said, the trouble comes on situations like that Amy Wimmer encountered. People
from outside come in, and THEY make the assumption and association. And some feel it is
not politically correct, and take offense. We haven't heard of a case of Romani
people taking offense, presumably because we haven't had any attend a contra? That
doesn't make using the term ok, it just means we have no usable specific data.
Sargon's question therefore remains unanswered. What are the criteria for removing a
term from our vocabulary? What level of provable offense constitutes reason for removal?
Even if the answer is none, it's worth asking ourselves.
> Andrea
>
> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask
>
>> On Oct 27, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>> Since "gypsy" as a contra/ECD term almost certainly refers to Romani,
it differs from say, geological terms or whatnot. The swastika is a sad thing, because the
Nazis basically ruined it, even though they use a reverse direction version.
>>
>> That said, I'm not endorsing or not endorsing the change to the
"gypsy" move, just stating that there are some clear differences.
>>
>>> On Oct 27, 2015 11:20 AM, "Sargon de Jesus via Callers"
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>> This has been a fascinating and edifying conversation regarding how and when
to use the term. At the risk of getting too deep in the philosophical questions regarding
use of the word "gypsy," I have a sincere and seriously non-loaded question
about what conditions must be met in order to justify removing it from our calling
vocabulary. Of course I acknowledge that when use of a pointed term meant to represent a
certain group of people is deemed by that group of people to be offensive, then care
should be taken to eliminate use of such a word (the Washington, D.C. football team comes
to mind). There is no alternate etymology to that term other than the reference to Native
Americans (well, unless their helmets had always featured red-skinned potatoes, of
course). But now, in playing devil's advocate I ask: doesn't context and origin
matter for "gypsy"? Isn't the etymology of the term's use in contra
dancing relevant to whether it can rightfully be cast aside for being an offensive term?
>>>
>>> To those who say it doesn't, then how do we reconcile that with offensive
terms or displays that have similar outputs that arose completely independently? For
example:
>>> - The four-pointed star common in Jainism is frequently mistaken for a
swastika.
>>> - The garb of the "Nazarenos" in Spain look identical to the KKK.
>>> - Geologists liberally use the term "dike/dyke" for a relatively
common rock formation.
>>> - Cracks or fissures in/on surfaces are commonly called "chinks."
>>> - The term "fob" is widely used for certain types of rings on key
chains.
>>>
>>> If we agree that all of these displays and uses are legitimate and
appropriate for continued use, then doesn't the history of "gypsy" in contra
dancing matter? Or does the surficial cause of offense warrant elimination? Not trying to
weasel out of the situation here, but rather genuinely trying to refine the precise
reasoning behind decisions in contra vocabulary. Curious about any/all perspectives on
this -- thanks!
>>> Sargon
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 7:00 PM, Winston, Alan P. via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>> Apologies for putting words in your mouth. I misunderstood what you were
saying.
>>>>
>>>> -- Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/26/2015 3:51 PM, Colin Hume via Callers wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:48:00 -0700, Alan Winston via Callers
wrote:
>>>>>> I didn't know morris dancers used "gypsy" rather
than "gyp", as you
>>>>>> say on the web page.
>>>>> Alan -
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't believe I say that. I say that Sharp's handwritten
notes use
>>>>> the word "gipsies", and I give links to prove it. I agree
that morris
>>>>> dancers use "gyp".
>>>>>
>>>>> Colin Hume
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Callers mailing list
>>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Callers mailing list
>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Callers mailing list
>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
8:46 p.m.
It is open and shut.
Saying it came from a well established name for wandering people versus
having no alternative, the only scientific thing to do us to accept the
plausible explanation.
On Oct 27, 2015 7:56 PM, <sargondj(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I'm no philologist, but I don't think it's
as open and shut as suggested.
While there is no proof the term derived from something other than in
reference to the people, there is equally no proof to the affirmative that
it is named after those people. Although it is indeed probable that it was
named after the Roma people, mere coexistence (or pre-existence) of the
term doesn't confirm it's the source.
To keep things in perspective: On more than one occasion, I've heard
contra dance callers explained that an "allemande" comes from the French
"à
la main" or "by the hand." However, that is apocryphal and the true
origin
is from a reference to a German dance (in French, "Allemande"). Just
because something sounds logically consistent doesn't mean that's the true
origin. I think the fact that the term is shortened to "gip" in some
contexts and spelled as "jeepsies" in another leaves enough reasonable
doubt that it could come from other derivations. That said, it may need to
be retired regardless.
On Oct 27, 2015, at 13:50, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote:
This should be open and shut.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gypsy
The term, whether with a y or i vowel (remember, this is before Webster
invented the dictionary with standard spellings) is ~400 years old.
The burden of proof is thus on those who would say there's some other root
of the word where the Morris dancers got it.
On Oct 27, 2015 12:02 PM, "Andrea Nettleton" <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net>
wrote:
> I've been reading all the historical origins discussion. It's seems to
> me we are far from concluding that the term 'gypsy' is associated with
> Romani people. We have that Cecil Sharp probably heard Morris Dancers
> using whole and half gip, and appropriated the movement and term for
> broader use in country dance, apparently without investigating origin. And
> we have a possible association between an Elizabethan? theater production
> called the Spanish Gypsy, with a dance of similar name with movement that
> may or may not be what we now call gypsy, but was not so named in said
> dance. We are all assuming that at some point, someone was referring to
> the Roma, to their hands free dance, to their gaze, or something, but we
> don't know.
> That said, the trouble comes on situations like that Amy Wimmer
> encountered. People from outside come in, and THEY make the assumption and
> association. And some feel it is not politically correct, and take
> offense. We haven't heard of a case of Romani people taking offense,
> presumably because we haven't had any attend a contra? That doesn't make
> using the term ok, it just means we have no usable specific data. Sargon's
> question therefore remains unanswered. What are the criteria for removing
> a term from our vocabulary? What level of provable offense constitutes
> reason for removal? Even if the answer is none, it's worth asking
> ourselves.
> Andrea
>
> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask
>
> On Oct 27, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers <
> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Since "gypsy" as a contra/ECD term almost certainly refers to Romani, it
> differs from say, geological terms or whatnot. The swastika is a sad thing,
> because the Nazis basically ruined it, even though they use a reverse
> direction version.
>
> That said, I'm not endorsing or not endorsing the change to the
"gypsy"
> move, just stating that there are some clear differences.
> On Oct 27, 2015 11:20 AM, "Sargon de Jesus via Callers" <
> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> This has been a fascinating and edifying conversation regarding how and
>> when to use the term. At the risk of getting too deep in the philosophical
>> questions regarding use of the word "gypsy," I have a sincere and
seriously
>> non-loaded question about what conditions must be met in order to justify
>> removing it from our calling vocabulary. Of course I acknowledge that when
>> use of a pointed term meant to represent a certain group of people is
>> deemed by that group of people to be offensive, then care should be taken
>> to eliminate use of such a word (the Washington, D.C. football team comes
>> to mind). There is no alternate etymology to that term other than the
>> reference to Native Americans (well, unless their helmets had always
>> featured red-skinned potatoes, of course). But now, in playing devil's
>> advocate I ask: doesn't context and origin matter for "gypsy"?
Isn't the
>> etymology of the term's use in contra dancing relevant to whether it can
>> rightfully be cast aside for being an offensive term?
>>
>> To those who say it doesn't, then how do we reconcile that with
>> offensive terms or displays that have similar outputs that arose completely
>> independently? For example:
>> - The four-pointed star common in Jainism is frequently mistaken for a
>> swastika.
>> - The garb of the "Nazarenos" in Spain look identical to the KKK.
>> - Geologists liberally use the term "dike/dyke" for a relatively
common
>> rock formation.
>> - Cracks or fissures in/on surfaces are commonly called "chinks."
>> - The term "fob" is widely used for certain types of rings on key
chains.
>>
>> If we agree that all of these displays and uses are legitimate and
>> appropriate for continued use, then doesn't the history of "gypsy"
in
>> contra dancing matter? Or does the surficial cause of offense warrant
>> elimination? Not trying to weasel out of the situation here, but rather
>> genuinely trying to refine the precise reasoning behind decisions in contra
>> vocabulary. Curious about any/all perspectives on this -- thanks!
>> Sargon
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 7:00 PM, Winston, Alan P. via Callers <
>> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Apologies for putting words in your mouth. I misunderstood what you
>>> were saying.
>>>
>>> -- Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/26/2015 3:51 PM, Colin Hume via Callers wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:48:00 -0700, Alan Winston via Callers wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I didn't know morris dancers used "gypsy" rather than
"gyp", as you
>>>>> say on the web page.
>>>>>
>>>> Alan -
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe I say that. I say that Sharp's handwritten notes
use
>>>> the word "gipsies", and I give links to prove it. I agree that
morris
>>>> dancers use "gyp".
>>>>
>>>> Colin Hume
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Callers mailing list
>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Callers mailing list
>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>
12:03 p.m.
In square dance, Indian Style is rarely used for single file promenade,
although it was prevalent just 25 years ago. It has slowly disappeared
replaced with just the descriptive language of "single file".
I often replace, "Single file Indian Style" with "Single file with a
smile".
I also beieve Walk around your Neighbor is a suitable, and perhaps the
best, replacement for Gypsy Neighbor or Gypsie around your Neighbor. It
already has the correct meaning for many dancers (eye contact optional),
and it easily translates from contra to common usage in squares.
Rich
Stafford, CT
On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Since "gypsy" as a contra/ECD term almost
certainly refers to Romani, it
differs from say, geological terms or whatnot. The swastika is a sad thing,
because the Nazis basically ruined it, even though they use a reverse
direction version.
That said, I'm not endorsing or not endorsing the change to the "gypsy"
move, just stating that there are some clear differences.
On Oct 27, 2015 11:20 AM, "Sargon de Jesus via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
This has been a fascinating and edifying
conversation regarding how and
when to use the term. At the risk of getting too deep in the philosophical
questions regarding use of the word "gypsy," I have a sincere and seriously
non-loaded question about what conditions must be met in order to justify
removing it from our calling vocabulary. Of course I acknowledge that when
use of a pointed term meant to represent a certain group of people is
deemed by that group of people to be offensive, then care should be taken
to eliminate use of such a word (the Washington, D.C. football team comes
to mind). There is no alternate etymology to that term other than the
reference to Native Americans (well, unless their helmets had always
featured red-skinned potatoes, of course). But now, in playing devil's
advocate I ask: doesn't context and origin matter for "gypsy"? Isn't
the
etymology of the term's use in contra dancing relevant to whether it can
rightfully be cast aside for being an offensive term?
To those who say it doesn't, then how do we reconcile that with offensive
terms or displays that have similar outputs that arose completely
independently? For example:
- The four-pointed star common in Jainism is frequently mistaken for a
swastika.
- The garb of the "Nazarenos" in Spain look identical to the KKK.
- Geologists liberally use the term "dike/dyke" for a relatively common
rock formation.
- Cracks or fissures in/on surfaces are commonly called "chinks."
- The term "fob" is widely used for certain types of rings on key chains.
If we agree that all of these displays and uses are legitimate and
appropriate for continued use, then doesn't the history of "gypsy" in
contra dancing matter? Or does the surficial cause of offense warrant
elimination? Not trying to weasel out of the situation here, but rather
genuinely trying to refine the precise reasoning behind decisions in contra
vocabulary. Curious about any/all perspectives on this -- thanks!
Sargon
On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 7:00 PM, Winston, Alan P. via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
Apologies for putting words in your mouth. I
misunderstood what you
were saying.
-- Alan
On 10/26/2015 3:51 PM, Colin Hume via Callers wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:48:00 -0700, Alan Winston
via Callers wrote:
> I didn't know morris dancers used "gypsy" rather than "gyp",
as you
> say on the web page.
>
Alan -
I don't believe I say that. I say that Sharp's handwritten notes use
the word "gipsies", and I give links to prove it. I agree that morris
dancers use "gyp".
Colin Hume
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
29 Oct
29 Oct
9:39 a.m.
New subject: Offensive terms and cultural norms
On Tue, Oct 27, 2015, Sargon de Jesus via Callers wrote:
This has been a fascinating and edifying conversation regarding how and
when to use the term. At the risk of getting too deep in the philosophical
questions regarding use of the word "gypsy," I have a sincere and seriously
non-loaded question about what conditions must be met in order to justify
removing it from our calling vocabulary. Of course I acknowledge that when
use of a pointed term meant to represent a certain group of people is
deemed by that group of people to be offensive, then care should be taken
to eliminate use of such a word (the Washington, D.C. football team comes
to mind). There is no alternate etymology to that term other than the
reference to Native Americans (well, unless their helmets had always
featured red-skinned potatoes, of course). But now, in playing devil's
advocate I ask: doesn't context and origin matter for "gypsy"? Isn't
the
etymology of the term's use in contra dancing relevant to whether it can
rightfully be cast aside for being an offensive term?
Maybe. But given that there isn't any clear etymology for "gypsy" as a
dance figure and given that "dance gypsy" *is* a clear reference to the
common meaning of gypsy, I think that the burden of proof falls on those
defending the use of "gypsy" as a figure -- but only if it turns out that
Romani find it offensive.
To those who say it doesn't, then how do we
reconcile that with offensive
terms or displays that have similar outputs that arose completely
independently? For example:
- The four-pointed star common in Jainism is frequently mistaken for a
swastika.
- The garb of the "Nazarenos" in Spain look identical to the KKK.
- Geologists liberally use the term "dike/dyke" for a relatively common
rock formation.
- Cracks or fissures in/on surfaces are commonly called "chinks."
- The term "fob" is widely used for certain types of rings on key chains.
If we agree that all of these displays and uses are legitimate and
appropriate for continued use, then doesn't the history of "gypsy" in
contra dancing matter? Or does the surficial cause of offense warrant
elimination? Not trying to weasel out of the situation here, but rather
genuinely trying to refine the precise reasoning behind decisions in contra
vocabulary. Curious about any/all perspectives on this -- thanks!
All these examples refer to larger cultural/linguistic conflicts than
"gypsy" as a dance move. I'll point out that "gay" got killed (at
least
for now) despite its centuries of existence, and "queer" is still very
much up in the air. IMO, those two examples demonstrate that there's
likely to be more pushback on everyday use of terms that are also
offensive when their everyday use is already emotion-laden.
And given that "gypsy" as a dance figure has some emotional force in the
contra community, I think it's more likely to get replaced if it turns
out that it's offensive.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
24 Oct
24 Oct
6:39 a.m.
While I did already know that the Romani people have been severely discriminated against
and oppressed, I did not know that the term gypsy was considered offensive. So I will
think further about that.
I would not be inclined to describe the move as “flirty”, however, because that is the
aspect of the move that I already know makes some people not like it since dancers
inclined to insensitive flirting sometimes take license with it. I prefer to let people
add flirtatiousness or not on their own without encouragement and to describe the move
only by its basic physical attributes.
Always good to take a fresh look at things.
Thanks for raising the question here.
-cynthia
From: Callers [mailto:callers-bounces@lists.sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Amy Wimmer via
Callers
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 3:13 AM
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"
Hello All,
I taught a dance this evening that included a ladies' gypsy. I received the email
below a few minutes ago. In teaching it I wanted to convey that it is a flirty, eye
contact sort of move. This person was obviously offended. I am at a loss for how to
respond, except to apologize for offending.
I'm pretty sure I described the move accurately. I meant absolutely no offense. I
didn't make up the name for the move, but don't want to make excuses. Does this
move need a new name? How would you respond?
-Amy
Seattle
Begin forwarded message:
Subject: First time at your event
This evening, I came to one of your dances for the first time. I was impressed by the
friendliness of the dancers, the quality of the musicians, and the overall fun of the
dance.
And then we got to a dance in which we were told we would be learning a step named after
an offensive term for Romani people. And I felt uncomfortable. And then when the step was
taught, it became clear that the term was so named based on stereotypes of Romani women as
being overly sexual. And I became more uncomfortable.
I assume that this was not done maliciously, but rather out of an unawareness of the ways
that that term has been used to denigrate Romani people throughout history (much the same
way that many other racial slurs have been used in the past by well-meaning people before
they became aware that those terms were hurtful and harmful to those disadvantaged
groups).
Nonetheless, it felt shockingly offensive to me, all the more so in the context of a
community that appeared to be so welcoming and accepting.
Until that point, I had a very enjoyable time dancing at your event. I've been a
dancer in a variety of communities for many years now, and aside from that issue, this was
probably the best first experience I've had when meeting a new dance community. It was
a shame that some presumably unintentional racial insensitivity had to ruin what was
otherwise such a positive experience.
9:55 a.m.
Before I commented I decided to google first, and I'm glad I did. I was not aware of
the depth of hurt people feel about the word.
http://gypsyappropriations.blogspot.com/2010/04/problem-with-word-gypsy.html
But the offended person is correct in his/her assumption that the word is not used
maliciously in contra dancing. I agree with cynthia. I do not consider the move flirty,
merely friendly, a way of acknowledging that you are dancing with another person. I'm
sure people don't attribute much to the meaning, just as we don't think, "Oh,
is this how they twirl in California?", or "Is the robin insane, or just pissed
off?". We just joyously do the moves. Easy for me to say as a non-Romani, but maybe
it is an opportunity to embrace the word as a positive thing, at least in this one
context.
Brooks
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 06:39:21 -0400
Subject: Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"
From: callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
While I did already know that the Romani people have been severely discriminated against
and oppressed, I did not know that the term gypsy was considered offensive. So I will
think further about that. I would not be inclined to describe the move as “flirty”,
however, because that is the aspect of the move that I already know makes some people not
like it since dancers inclined to insensitive flirting sometimes take license with it. I
prefer to let people add flirtatiousness or not on their own without encouragement and to
describe the move only by its basic physical attributes. Always good to take a fresh look
at things.Thanks for raising the question here.-cynthia From: Callers
[mailto:callers-bounces@lists.sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Amy Wimmer via Callers
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 3:13 AM
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy" Hello All, I taught a dance this evening
that included a ladies' gypsy. I received the email below a few minutes ago. In
teaching it I wanted to convey that it is a flirty, eye contact sort of move. This person
was obviously offended. I am at a loss for how to respond, except to apologize for
offending. I'm pretty sure I described the move accurately. I meant absolutely no
offense. I didn't make up the name for the move, but don't want to make excuses.
Does this move need a new name? How would you respond? -AmySeattle
Begin forwarded message:Subject: First time at your eventThis evening, I came to one of
your dances for the first time. I was impressed by the friendliness of the dancers, the
quality of the musicians, and the overall fun of the dance.And then we got to a dance in
which we were told we would be learning a step named after an offensive term for Romani
people. And I felt uncomfortable. And then when the step was taught, it became clear that
the term was so named based on stereotypes of Romani women as being overly sexual. And I
became more uncomfortable. I assume that this was not done maliciously, but rather out of
an unawareness of the ways that that term has been used to denigrate Romani people
throughout history (much the same way that many other racial slurs have been used in the
past by well-meaning people before they became aware that those terms were hurtful and
harmful to those disadvantaged groups). Nonetheless, it felt shockingly offensive to me,
all the more so in the context of a community that appeared to be so welcoming and
accepting. Until that point, I had a very enjoyable time dancing at your event. I've
been a dancer in a variety of communities for many years now, and aside from that issue,
this was probably the best first experience I've had when meeting a new dance
community. It was a shame that some presumably unintentional racial insensitivity had to
ruin what was otherwise such a positive experience.
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
10:08 a.m.
Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us posting what I expect to be
many replies to trim post quotes to just the pertinent bits (particularly
those reading the "digest" version).
I don't stress flirtation with this move - if so inclined, it appears to
develop quite naturally on its own. What I typically say to a first time
group of dancers is something along the lines of "lock [tractor beam] eyes
with this person, slightly present your right [left] shoulder to them and
walk around them [counter-]clockwise without touching - we call this a
Gypsy".
In response to this person from your dance I would personally reply with
something like:
"I'm sorry that you were offended and take your input seriously. The
"gypsy" move in Contra dancing is shared from English Country Dance, and is
a standardized term in this context. As a result of your input I've raised
this issue with a group of dance leaders I participate in and there may be
an opportunity to rename this move over time. Thanks for coming to our
dance and I hope you'll join us again."
Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming issue with a group of callers (and
dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An area caller had tried
rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the
existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani
heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it
being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be
renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might
offend but rather to show that there are many possible perspectives. I'd
since thought of other possible names and came up with these:
- Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound
- Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon?
- Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out.
Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent was
to bring happiness, not offend.
-Don
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 3:12 AM, Amy Wimmer via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
In teaching it I wanted to convey that it is a flirty,
eye contact sort of
move. This person was obviously offended. I am at a loss for how to
respond, except to apologize for offending.
10:14 a.m.
Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in soundCyclone - too
"violent", encouraging abandon?Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short
when spelled out.
How about "eddy"?
Brooks
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 10:08:23 -0400
To: amywimmer(a)gmail.com
CC: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"
From: callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us posting what I expect to be many replies
to trim post quotes to just the pertinent bits (particularly those reading the
"digest" version).
I don't stress flirtation with this move - if so inclined, it appears to develop quite
naturally on its own. What I typically say to a first time group of dancers is something
along the lines of "lock [tractor beam] eyes with this person, slightly present your
right [left] shoulder to them and walk around them [counter-]clockwise without touching -
we call this a Gypsy".
In response to this person from your dance I would personally reply with something like:
"I'm sorry that you were offended and take your input seriously. The
"gypsy" move in Contra dancing is shared from English Country Dance, and is a
standardized term in this context. As a result of your input I've raised this issue
with a group of dance leaders I participate in and there may be an opportunity to rename
this move over time. Thanks for coming to our dance and I hope you'll join us
again."
Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming issue with a group of callers (and dancers
glommed on) at a house party recently. An area caller had tried rebranding the Gypsy as an
Orbit, which this group rejected due to the existing usage & meaning for that term.
One participant was of Romani heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and
satisfaction at it being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be
renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might offend but
rather to show that there are many possible perspectives. I'd since thought of other
possible names and came up with these:
Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in soundCyclone - too
"violent", encouraging abandon?Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short
when spelled out.Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent was
to bring happiness, not offend.
-Don
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 3:12 AM, Amy Wimmer via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
In teaching it I wanted to convey that it is a flirty, eye contact sort of move. This
person was obviously offended. I am at a loss for how to respond, except to apologize for
offending.
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
9:49 p.m.
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015, Brooks Hart via Callers wrote:
How about "eddy"?
"What's the matter, Columbia? You've eaten Eddie before."
Sorry, that's the first thing that popped into my head...
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
2:52 p.m.
I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but face to
face, instead of back to back.
As that is the case, why not use French again. As "dos à dos" means
back to back, why not use "face à face" which means face to face?
Pronunciation would probably be difficult for those who don't speak
French, so it would probably become "facey-face" for many.
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Don Veino via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us
posting what I expect to be
many replies to trim post quotes to just the pertinent bits (particularly
those reading the "digest" version).
....
Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming issue
with a group of callers (and
dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An area caller had tried
rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the
existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani
heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it
being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be
renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might offend
but rather to show that there are many possible perspectives. I'd since
thought of other possible names and came up with these:
Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound
Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon?
Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out.
Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent was to
bring happiness, not offend.
-Don
3:03 p.m.
"Spiral".
That said, I've yet to hear a report of a Romani being offended. It's my
understanding that this may be a problem, say, in Europe, where the term
may be used as a slur. But here in America... we have plenty of racial
slurs, and I've yet to hear or hear of gypsy being used in a derogatory
manner.
But hey, prove me wrong. I'm just one person who hears things.
Should Brits stop calling cigarettes "fags" because we Americans have
hurtfully turned that into a slur?
On Oct 24, 2015 2:52 PM, "Richard Hart via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à
dos, but face to
face, instead of back to back.
As that is the case, why not use French again. As "dos à dos" means
back to back, why not use "face à face" which means face to face?
Pronunciation would probably be difficult for those who don't speak
French, so it would probably become "facey-face" for many.
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Don Veino via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us
posting what I expect to
be
many replies to trim post quotes to just the
pertinent bits (particularly
those reading the "digest" version).
....
Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming
issue with a group of callers
(and
dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An
area caller had tried
rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the
existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani
heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it
being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be
renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might
offend
but rather to show that there are many possible
perspectives. I'd since
thought of other possible names and came up with these:
Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound
Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon?
Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out.
Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent
was to
bring happiness, not offend.
-Don
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
4:42 p.m.
In square dance, the call "walk all around your left hand lady" is very
close to a right shoulder gypsy, and "See Saw is a left shoulder walk
around. A left shoulder Dosido is no longer called a See Saw, but a Left
Dosido.
Walk all around your nieghbor or partner, and see saw your neighbor or
partner, may be able to replace the gypsy without generating any new terms.
Rich
Stafford, CT
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 2:52 PM, Richard Hart via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à
dos, but face to
face, instead of back to back.
As that is the case, why not use French again. As "dos à dos" means
back to back, why not use "face à face" which means face to face?
Pronunciation would probably be difficult for those who don't speak
French, so it would probably become "facey-face" for many.
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Don Veino via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us
posting what I expect to
be
many replies to trim post quotes to just the
pertinent bits (particularly
those reading the "digest" version).
....
Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming
issue with a group of callers
(and
dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An
area caller had tried
rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the
existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani
heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it
being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be
renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might
offend
but rather to show that there are many possible
perspectives. I'd since
thought of other possible names and came up with these:
Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound
Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon?
Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out.
Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent
was to
bring happiness, not offend.
-Don
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
6:36 p.m.
I can see from this discussion that there is definitely merit in giving this move a
different name, though I had never thought of it as a derogatory term before. I rather
like the idea suggested in a previous post of "eddy" because it is short and to
the point and sounds different from other calls. "Walk all around your
neighbor/partner" is fine for a walkthrough and as a description, but not very good
for a quick reminder when you'd rather be calling a lot less.
Another move that one would have to rename is the "gypsy star". I have
personally always called the move "gypsy star" as "star wrong" -
mostly because if I say "gypsy star" there is always at least one couple in the
crowd that starts to gypsy and swing (eddy and swing?) instead of doing the star.
"Star wrong" is also short and to the point and emphasizes the oddity of the
star - two people backing up and two going forward. It seems to get the job done.
Martha
On Oct 24, 2015, at 1:42 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers wrote:
In square dance, the call "walk all around your
left hand lady" is very close to a right shoulder gypsy, and "See Saw is a left
shoulder walk around. A left shoulder Dosido is no longer called a See Saw, but a Left
Dosido.
Walk all around your nieghbor or partner, and see saw your neighbor or partner, may be
able to replace the gypsy without generating any new terms.
Rich
Stafford, CT
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 2:52 PM, Richard Hart via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but face to
face, instead of back to back.
As that is the case, why not use French again. As "dos à dos" means
back to back, why not use "face à face" which means face to face?
Pronunciation would probably be difficult for those who don't speak
French, so it would probably become "facey-face" for many.
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Don Veino via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us
posting what I expect to be
many replies to trim post quotes to just the pertinent bits (particularly
those reading the "digest" version).
....
Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming
issue with a group of callers (and
dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An area caller had tried
rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the
existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani
heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it
being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be
renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might offend
but rather to show that there are many possible perspectives. I'd since
thought of other possible names and came up with these:
Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound
Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon?
Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out.
Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent was to
bring happiness, not offend.
-Don
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
6:45 p.m.
I don't think of it as a derogatory term.
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 6:36 PM, Martha Wild via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I can see from this discussion that there is
definitely merit in giving
this move a different name, though I had never thought of it as a
derogatory term before. I rather like the idea suggested in a previous post
of "eddy" because it is short and to the point and sounds different from
other calls. "Walk all around your neighbor/partner" is fine for a
walkthrough and as a description, but not very good for a quick reminder
when you'd rather be calling a lot less.
Another move that one would have to rename is the "gypsy star". I have
personally always called the move "gypsy star" as "star wrong" -
mostly
because if I say "gypsy star" there is always at least one couple in the
crowd that starts to gypsy and swing (eddy and swing?) instead of doing the
star. "Star wrong" is also short and to the point and emphasizes the oddity
of the star - two people backing up and two going forward. It seems to get
the job done.
Martha
On Oct 24, 2015, at 1:42 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers wrote:
In square dance, the call "walk all around your left hand lady" is very
close to a right shoulder gypsy, and "See Saw is a left shoulder walk
around. A left shoulder Dosido is no longer called a See Saw, but a Left
Dosido.
Walk all around your nieghbor or partner, and see saw your neighbor or
partner, may be able to replace the gypsy without generating any new terms.
Rich
Stafford, CT
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 2:52 PM, Richard Hart via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I always describe a gypsy as being just like a
dos à dos, but face to
face, instead of back to back.
As that is the case, why not use French again. As "dos à dos" means
back to back, why not use "face à face" which means face to face?
Pronunciation would probably be difficult for those who don't speak
French, so it would probably become "facey-face" for many.
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Don Veino via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us
posting what I expect
to be
many replies to trim post quotes to just the
pertinent bits
(particularly
those reading the "digest" version).
....
Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming
issue with a group of callers
(and
dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An
area caller had tried
rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the
existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani
heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it
being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be
renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might
offend
but rather to show that there are many possible
perspectives. I'd since
thought of other possible names and came up with these:
Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound
Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon?
Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out.
Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent
was to
bring happiness, not offend.
-Don
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
9:53 p.m.
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015, Lindsay Morris via Callers wrote:
I don't think of it as a derogatory term.
Are you Romani? As with other terms that are slurs against various
demographic groups, you don't get to decide what's derogatory or
offensive if you're not part of the group. In many cases (e.g. "queer"
or "nigger"), terms that are acceptable or reclaimed for in-group usage
are still considered derogatory when used by other people.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
7:45 p.m.
Flirting - I try not to suggest that
Name - not worried what we call it
Suggestion - I sometimes call it 'eyeballs'. It works well.
--
Michael Barraclough
michael(a)michaelbarraclough.com
www.michaelbarraclough.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Martha Wild via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Reply-to: Martha Wild <mawild(a)sbcglobal.net>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 15:36:40 -0700
I can see from this discussion that there is definitely merit in giving
this move a different name, though I had never thought of it as a
derogatory term before. I rather like the idea suggested in a previous
post of "eddy" because it is short and to the point and sounds different
from other calls. "Walk all around your neighbor/partner" is fine for a
walkthrough and as a description, but not very good for a quick reminder
when you'd rather be calling a lot less.
Another move that one would have to rename is the "gypsy star". I have
personally always called the move "gypsy star" as "star wrong" -
mostly
because if I say "gypsy star" there is always at least one couple in the
crowd that starts to gypsy and swing (eddy and swing?) instead of doing
the star. "Star wrong" is also short and to the point and emphasizes the
oddity of the star - two people backing up and two going forward. It
seems to get the job done.
Martha
On Oct 24, 2015, at 1:42 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers wrote:
In square dance, the call "walk all around your
left hand lady" is
very close to a right shoulder gypsy, and "See Saw is a left shoulder
walk around. A left shoulder Dosido is no longer called a See Saw,
but a Left Dosido.
Walk all around your nieghbor or partner, and see saw your neighbor or
partner, may be able to replace the gypsy without generating any new
terms.
Rich
Stafford, CT
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 2:52 PM, Richard Hart via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but
face to
face, instead of back to back.
As that is the case, why not use French again. As "dos à dos"
means
back to back, why not use "face à face" which means face to
face?
Pronunciation would probably be difficult for those who don't
speak
French, so it would probably become "facey-face" for many.
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Don Veino via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us
posting what
I expect to be
many replies to trim post quotes to just the
pertinent bits
(particularly
those reading the "digest" version).
....
Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming
issue with a group
of callers (and
dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An
area
caller had tried
rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this
group rejected
due to the
existing usage & meaning for that term. One
participant was
of Romani
heritage and expressed pride at the existing term
and
satisfaction at it
being used for such a nice dance move and would
feel loss
were it to be
renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses
for anything
that might offend
but rather to show that there are many possible
perspectives. I'd since
thought of other possible names and came up with
these:
Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound
Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon?
Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when
spelled out.
Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your
actual intent was
to
bring happiness, not offend.
-Don
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
25 Oct
25 Oct
12:56 p.m.
I once had someone explain the gypsy as not trusting someone enough to take their eyes off
of them (!), so I agree that the underlying meaning can be problematic, to say the least.
Other moves have historical meanings too, but Gypsy as a term is more pejorative than,
say, Allemande, which references traditional German folk dance hand holds.
I like Michael's suggestion for "eyes." When teaching, it could be described
as "walk around holding eyes," which is similar to how I already describe it
(holding eyes instead of hands). Then during the dance, the call could be shortened to
"eyes" or "hold eyes." Something like "Ladies hold eyes"
seems to roll off the tongue with a good rhythm. Or maybe "Ladies by the eyes?"
Melting could still be melting. Not sure how I'd fix my gypsy chase move, though.
There is also the issue of avoiding similar directions that would confuse the dancers,
such as in a Mad Robin where you are encouraged to hold eyes with the person across from
you, but not actually rotate around them. Maybe we need an alternate descriptive/evocative
term, like the way a Mad Robin is sometimes called Sliding Doors.
A single orbit? Eyes single? Star single? Hands off?
I'm also curious about thoughts about to what degree we might explain the change to
dancers. From most of the dancers' perspective, it may be "if it ain't broke,
don't change it." We might get push-back from dancers exasperated with what seems
to them like an arbitrary term change. Maybe if the term is more descriptive, they
won't notice as much. "Holding Eyes" works for me.
Just some thoughts.
Joy Greenwolfe
Durham, NC
On Oct 24, 2015, at 7:45 PM, Michael Barraclough via Callers wrote:
Flirting - I try not to suggest that
Name - not worried what we call it
Suggestion - I sometimes call it 'eyeballs'. It works well.
--
Michael Barraclough
michael(a)michaelbarraclough.com
www.michaelbarraclough.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Martha Wild via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Reply-to: Martha Wild <mawild(a)sbcglobal.net>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 15:36:40 -0700
I can see from this discussion that there is definitely merit in giving this move a
different name, though I had never thought of it as a derogatory term before. I rather
like the idea suggested in a previous post of "eddy" because it is short and to
the point and sounds different from other calls. "Walk all around your
neighbor/partner" is fine for a walkthrough and as a description, but not very good
for a quick reminder when you'd rather be calling a lot less.
Another move that one would have to rename is the "gypsy star". I have
personally always called the move "gypsy star" as "star wrong" -
mostly because if I say "gypsy star" there is always at least one couple in the
crowd that starts to gypsy and swing (eddy and swing?) instead of doing the star.
"Star wrong" is also short and to the point and emphasizes the oddity of the
star - two people backing up and two going forward. It seems to get the job done.
Martha
On Oct 24, 2015, at 1:42 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers wrote:
In square dance, the call "walk all around
your left hand lady" is very close to a right shoulder gypsy, and "See Saw is a
left shoulder walk around. A left shoulder Dosido is no longer called a See Saw, but a
Left Dosido.
Walk all around your nieghbor or partner, and see saw your neighbor or partner, may be
able to replace the gypsy without generating any new terms.
Rich
Stafford, CT
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 2:52 PM, Richard Hart via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but face to
face, instead of back to back.
As that is the case, why not use French again. As "dos à dos" means
back to back, why not use "face à face" which means face to face?
Pronunciation would probably be difficult for those who don't speak
French, so it would probably become "facey-face" for many.
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Don Veino via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us
posting what I expect to be
many replies to trim post quotes to just the pertinent bits (particularly
those reading the "digest" version).
....
Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming
issue with a group of callers (and
dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An area caller had tried
rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the
existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani
heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it
being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be
renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might offend
but rather to show that there are many possible perspectives. I'd since
thought of other possible names and came up with these:
Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound
Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon?
Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out.
Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent was to
bring happiness, not offend.
-Don
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
8:32 p.m.
A lot of people, including newer dancers or dancers who are just plain shy,
have difficulty with eye contact. I have stopped teaching the Gypsy as
locking eyes with a person, and instead stress looking at the person. In
this way the people who want to look at their eyes will naturally think to
do so, and the people who don't are not being forced to do so.
That's including the word eyes in the move itself is a problem. It is the
same problem of telling people that they have to smile. There are a million
reasons why a person may be enjoying themselves and not smile, perhaps if
they're just focusing. Or, god forbid, a person might not have to enjoy
themselves in your presence, and we should never expect somebody and tell
them to smile.
On Oct 25, 2015 12:56 PM, "Joy Greenwolfe via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I once had someone explain the gypsy as not trusting
someone enough to
take their eyes off of them (!), so I agree that the underlying meaning can
be problematic, to say the least. Other moves have historical meanings too,
but Gypsy as a term is more pejorative than, say, Allemande, which
references traditional German folk dance hand holds.
I like Michael's suggestion for *"eyes." *When teaching, it could be
described as "walk around holding eyes," which is similar to how I already
describe it (holding eyes instead of hands). Then during the dance, the
call could be shortened to "eyes" or "hold eyes." Something like
"Ladies
hold eyes" seems to roll off the tongue with a good rhythm. Or maybe
"Ladies by the eyes?"
Melting could still be melting. Not sure how I'd fix my gypsy chase move,
though.
There is also the issue of avoiding similar directions that would confuse
the dancers, such as in a Mad Robin where you are encouraged to hold eyes
with the person across from you, but not actually rotate around them. Maybe
we need an alternate descriptive/evocative term, like the way a Mad Robin
is sometimes called Sliding Doors.
A single orbit? Eyes single? Star single? Hands off?
I'm also curious about thoughts about to what degree we might explain the
change to dancers. From most of the dancers' perspective, it may be "if it
ain't broke, don't change it." We might get push-back from dancers
exasperated with what seems to them like an arbitrary term change. Maybe if
the term is more descriptive, they won't notice as much. "Holding Eyes"
works for me.
Just some thoughts.
Joy Greenwolfe
Durham, NC
On Oct 24, 2015, at 7:45 PM, Michael Barraclough via Callers wrote:
Flirting - I try not to suggest that
Name - not worried what we call it
Suggestion - I sometimes call it 'eyeballs'. It works well.
--
Michael Barraclough
michael(a)michaelbarraclough.com
www.michaelbarraclough.com
-----Original Message-----
*From*: Martha Wild via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<Martha%20Wild%20via%20Callers%20%3ccallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net%3e>>
Reply-to: Martha Wild <mawild(a)sbcglobal.net>
*To*: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net
<Caller's%20discussion%20list%20%3ccallers(a)sharedweight.net%3e>>
*Subject*: Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"
*Date*: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 15:36:40 -0700
I can see from this discussion that there is definitely merit in giving
this move a different name, though I had never thought of it as a
derogatory term before. I rather like the idea suggested in a previous post
of "eddy" because it is short and to the point and sounds different from
other calls. "Walk all around your neighbor/partner" is fine for a
walkthrough and as a description, but not very good for a quick reminder
when you'd rather be calling a lot less.
Another move that one would have to rename is the "gypsy star". I have
personally always called the move "gypsy star" as "star wrong" -
mostly
because if I say "gypsy star" there is always at least one couple in the
crowd that starts to gypsy and swing (eddy and swing?) instead of doing the
star. "Star wrong" is also short and to the point and emphasizes the oddity
of the star - two people backing up and two going forward. It seems to get
the job done.
Martha
On Oct 24, 2015, at 1:42 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers wrote:
In square dance, the call "walk all around your left hand lady" is very
close to a right shoulder gypsy, and "See Saw is a left shoulder walk
around. A left shoulder Dosido is no longer called a See Saw, but a Left
Dosido.
Walk all around your nieghbor or partner, and see saw your neighbor or
partner, may be able to replace the gypsy without generating any new terms.
Rich
Stafford, CT
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 2:52 PM, Richard Hart via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but face to
face, instead of back to back.
As that is the case, why not use French again. As "dos à dos" means
back to back, why not use "face à face" which means face to face?
Pronunciation would probably be difficult for those who don't speak
French, so it would probably become "facey-face" for many.
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Don Veino via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us
posting what I expect to
be
many replies to trim post quotes to just the
pertinent bits (particularly
those reading the "digest" version).
....
Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming
issue with a group of callers
(and
dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An
area caller had tried
rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the
existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani
heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it
being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be
renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might
offend
but rather to show that there are many possible
perspectives. I'd since
thought of other possible names and came up with these:
Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound
Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon?
Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out.
Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent
was to
bring happiness, not offend.
-Don
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24 Oct
24 Oct
5:09 p.m.
Sent from my iPad
On 24 Oct 2015, at 19:52, Richard Hart via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but face to
face, instead of back to back.
This might be problematic for ECD dancers as Fried de Metz Herman "invented"
this figure. It is basically it is a reverse back to back ( dos-si-do), i.e. fall back
past partner (neighbour) right shoulder, step right and walk forward to place.
As mentioned, in square dancing you have a walk around corner/partner. This is to all
intents and purposes is a gypsy.
Graham
25 Oct
25 Oct
12:49 a.m.
Thank you, everyone, for your thoughtful replies. I have a much better
idea how to respond to this person now. I also have some changes to
make in my calling. I appreciate the education and elucidation.
Ignorance is not bliss.
I think that, for now, I will do my best to eliminate the word "gypsy"
from my calling vocabulary. The problem will come with dance names,
such as "Amy Asked for a Gypsy," which was one of two dances I called
last night that had a ladies gypsy. I will also refrain from
suggesting flirtation, as that is uncomfortable for many.
Ah, the joys of growing as a person and a caller!
-Amy
On Oct 24, 2015, at 2:31 PM, via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Sent from my iPad
On 24 Oct 2015, at 19:52, Richard Hart via
Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but face to
face, instead of back to back.
This might be problematic for ECD dancers as Fried de Metz Herman "invented"
this figure. It is basically it is a reverse back to back ( dos-si-do), i.e. fall back
past partner (neighbour) right shoulder, step right and walk forward to place.
As mentioned, in square dancing you have a walk around corner/partner. This is to all
intents and purposes is a gypsy.
Graham
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27 Oct
27 Oct
6:24 p.m.
I have a suggestion for a new word to replace "gypsy." My word is
"bine" and I derive it from "binary stars" which, especially if they
are of similar mass, circle each other as in our dance move. I consulted with an
astrophysicist friend, who told me that under certain circumstances binary stars may be
"tidally locked," that is, facing each other as they orbit about each other.
(Our moon is tidally locked, but in the earth-moon case it's not a mutual thing.)
"Bine" can be used as a verb and a noun, it's one syllable and easy to say,
and its etymology is known. (And some dancers might enjoy the image).
As others have said, I too have appreciated this thoughtful discussion. It is hard to know
when to retire an established term that has been used without intention to offend anyone,
but I know many of us are considering doing so. So I thought I'd put my suggestion out
there.
Richard
On Oct 25, 2015, at 12:49 AM, Amy Wimmer via Callers wrote:
Thank you, everyone, for your thoughtful replies. I
have a much better
idea how to respond to this person now. I also have some changes to
make in my calling. I appreciate the education and elucidation.
Ignorance is not bliss.
I think that, for now, I will do my best to eliminate the word "gypsy"
from my calling vocabulary. The problem will come with dance names,
such as "Amy Asked for a Gypsy," which was one of two dances I called
last night that had a ladies gypsy. I will also refrain from
suggesting flirtation, as that is uncomfortable for many.
Ah, the joys of growing as a person and a caller!
-Amy
On Oct 24, 2015, at 2:31 PM, via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Sent from my iPad
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Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net On 24 Oct 2015, at 19:52, Richard Hart via
Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but face to
face, instead of back to back.
This might be problematic for ECD dancers as Fried de Metz Herman "invented"
this figure. It is basically it is a reverse back to back ( dos-si-do), i.e. fall back
past partner (neighbour) right shoulder, step right and walk forward to place.
As mentioned, in square dancing you have a walk around corner/partner. This is to all
intents and purposes is a gypsy.
Graham
_______________________________________________
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Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
24 Oct
24 Oct
11:30 a.m.
Since when I'm prompting, I sometimes just say "right shoulder" (or
"left
shoulder" for a left shoulder gypsy), I'm going to try using that as the
name the next time I call. The teaching would look like:
"Point your right shoulder at your neighbor and look them in the eyes. Walk
around them. Swing."
or
"This neighbor allemande right once and a half. Go on to the next neighbor
with a left shoulder - point your left shoulder at them, look them in the
eyes, and walk around once, but come back to your first neighbor and swing."
(Of course, this means that see-saws are a little bit more confusing, since
in teaching them, one often uses the words "left shoulder". But those are
rare enough that I'm not overly concerned.)
Yoyo Zhou
11:34 a.m.
Hi Amy,
I believe this topic has come up previously on other callers lists, and it is a bit of a
conundrum.
There are other terms in the arts, like "buck dancing". American percussive
dance dates back to the slave period. In some regions, what was an (unfortunate) common
term for male slaves?
Something to ruminate on.
Woody
Sent from my iPad
From: Amy Wimmer via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> To:
callers(a)sharedweight.net Subject: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy" Date: 10/24/15,
12:12 AM
Hello All,
I taught a dance this evening that included a ladies' gypsy. I received the email
below a few minutes ago. In teaching it I wanted to convey that it is a flirty, eye
contact sort of move. This person was obviously offended. I am at a loss for how to
respond, except to apologize for offending.
I'm pretty sure I described the move accurately. I meant absolutely no offense. I
didn't make up the name for the move, but don't want to make excuses. Does this
move need a new name? How would you respond?
-Amy
Seattle
Begin forwarded message:
Subject: First time at your event
This evening, I came to one of your dances for the first time. I was impressed by the
friendliness of the dancers, the quality of the musicians, and the overall fun of the
dance.
And then we got to a dance in which we were told we would be learning a step named after
an offensive term for Romani people. And I felt uncomfortable. And then when the step was
taught, it became clear that the term was so named based on stereotypes of Romani women as
being overly sexual. And I became more uncomfortable.
I assume that this was not done maliciously, but rather out of an unawareness of the ways
that that term has been used to denigrate Romani people throughout history (much the same
way that many other racial slurs have been used in the past by well-meaning people before
they became aware that those terms were hurtful and harmful to those disadvantaged
groups).
Nonetheless, it felt shockingly offensive to me, all the more so in the context of a
community that appeared to be so welcoming and accepting.
Until that point, I had a very enjoyable time dancing at your event. I've been a
dancer in a variety of communities for many years now, and aside from that issue, this was
probably the best first experience I've had when meeting a new dance community. It was
a shame that some presumably unintentional racial insensitivity had to ruin what was
otherwise such a positive experience.
1:09 p.m.
I've been dancing & calling for almost 40 years, and I lived with Romani and other
travelling peoples in England and Ireland for most of the 1980s. Times change and
meanings change, and it's time to change this. Some people consider this the
equivalent of using the "N" word. Within the community it can be used in certain
contexts even with pride, but use by outsiders to describe a move like this could be
considered highly offensive. AND please note that the name is not the only thing that
could be considered offensive about this move. The offense will not go away until callers
stop instructing people to flirt with each other. "Stare longingly into the
eyes..." of that total stranger? YUCH. Yes, I find the call and the move offensive
on several levels, to the extent that I never call it, and will not join in a dance that I
know includes it.
5:05 p.m.
On 10/24/15 12:12 AM, Amy Wimmer via Callers wrote:
Hello All,
I taught a dance this evening that included a ladies' gypsy. I
received the email below a few minutes ago. In teaching it I wanted to
convey that it is a flirty, eye contact sort of move. This person was
obviously offended. I am at a loss for how to respond, except to
apologize for offending.
I'm pretty sure I described the move accurately. I meant absolutely no
offense. I didn't make up the name for the move, but don't want to
make excuses. Does this move need a new name? How would you respond?
I think apologizing for unintentionally offending is good but I don't
think you have to take on all of what your correspondent is offended over.
Your correspondent made up the idea that it's so named because of the
idea that Romani women are oversexualized.
Here's my take on this:
- the use of the term "Gypsy" is inherently offensive to some of the
people to whom it refers in just the way the use of the term "Indian" is
inherently offensive to some Native Americans. It's a name they don't
accept (a) because it incorrectly ascribes an incorrect geographical
origin to them (Egyptian for Gypsies, India (well, East Indies) for
Indians) and (b) was assigned to them by outsiders and became the terms
used for them by people who wanted to move them along / kill them.
(Although the term the Nazis used, Zigeuner, derives from a Greek root
meaning "untouchable" rather than "Egyptian", according to the US
Holocaust Museum website.)
- The term "Indian File" for walking in a line, one after another,
doesn't suggest anything particularly derogatory about Native Americans;
I think it's an observation or speculation that the way East Coast
(forest-dwelling) indigenous people walked through forests on minimal
trails was in single file. We can point out that white society thinks
there are many admirable things about native peoples - the whole "Indian
Guides" thing shows that - and that the use of the world "Indian" in
that isn't intended to be offensive, etc, etc, and yet the obviously
right thing to do was to start saying "single file" instead, because the
benefits of not pointlessly offending people vastly outweighed the
benefits of continuing to use a non-descriptive term. It's virtually
never effective and rarely kind to tell people they shouldn't be offended.
- By me, the same logic suggests that we should stop calling the figure
gypsy. We can go at length into why it's not named after Gypsies, why
"Gypsy" is a superset name that includes Rom and other traveling people,
some of whom don't mind it, the use of gypsy to mean "traveler" (from
which dance gypsy, Gypsy moth, etc, derive), the admiring use of gypsy
to mean free spirit ("gypsy in my soul"), etc, but none of that actually
matters in this context. What actual benefit do we derive from calling
it "gypsy", other than the sunk cost of having a community of people who
know it by that name? It's not descriptive. (It is evocative and we
have a bunch of dances with "gypsy" in the name; not sure what to do
about those.)
(I had been thinking that it would be very difficult to get a universal
change of name for the figure in the absence of a Callerlab for Contra,
but Yoyo's post (where he says he'll just drop the name and prompt by
which shoulder you go around) opened my eyes to the possibility of
effective individual action by callers; you don't need universal
agreement on a new name. That does open the door to a dancer on the
floor saying "you mean gypsy?" but I guess you can say "that name is
offensive to some people".) I'm going to have to think more about this
for my own practice as an English and a contra caller.
- I'm personally interested in the history of things and how they got
their names, and I'm convinced that gypsy in contra was picked up from
gypsy in English which was picked up from "whole-gyp" and "half-gyp"
in
Morris and that there's not necessarily any relationship of the name to
any group of people in origin, and I do not believe that in naming the
figure anybody was saying anything about the stereotypical
characteristics of any people. I really, with all the intellectual
honesty I have available, don't believe that. (And I've heard different
stereotypical characteristics assumed to be the origin - sexuality,
untrustworthiness, tendency to do non-touching dances, so I think these
are all just-so stories, ex post facto rationalizations.) I don't think
this blameless origin is a reason to keep the name, and I know it's
absolutely ineffective to point out the blameless origin to somebody
who's offended.
That's the end of my argument, but I have more thoughts.
- This is different from people who are offended by callers who
sexualize the figure, which they could do whatever it's called. I don't
mind gypsy meltdowns, but I find "until you just can't stand it
anymore" kinda tedious; let's just walk around each other maintaining a
comfortable level of eye contact until the music tells us to swing, how
about that?) (And I think sexualizing things and telling dancers how
they're supposed to feel, especially if it's sexual, is just getting
more and more passe as different people of different (and no) sexual
orientation are dancing on different sides of the set. We're all
people, we're all dancing together, that's enough.)
- I *like* the figure, and I really like the dance providing a safe
space to look at somebody else's face and look them in the eye without
it necessarily signaling anything. In the general world meeting
people's eyes can carry a lot of unintended freight; I think it's great
to have a place where you can just do it as part of the dance. Ideally
a connection is established, but there are all kinds of connections and
they're not necessarily sexual. (Which is not to say that I haven't
gotten stirred up, even in meltdown-free, far-apart English dance
gypsies, but that's way different from the caller telling everybody
they're supposed to.)
-- Alan
6:06 p.m.
Thank you for articulating these thought so clearly.
I wonder if Tony Barrand might have some idea about the origins from the Morris and
longsword perspective.
Patricia
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 24, 2015, at 5:05 PM, Alan Winston via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I think apologizing for unintentionally offending is good but I don't think you have
to take on all of what your correspondent is offended over.
Your correspondent made up the idea that it's so named because of the idea that
Romani women are oversexualized.
Here's my take on this:
- the use of the term "Gypsy" is inherently offensive to some of the people to
whom it refers in just the way the use of the term "Indian" is inherently
offensive to some Native Americans. It's a name they don't accept (a) because it
incorrectly ascribes an incorrect geographical origin to them (Egyptian for Gypsies, India
(well, East Indies) for Indians) and (b) was assigned to them by outsiders and became the
terms used for them by people who wanted to move them along / kill them. (Although the
term the Nazis used, Zigeuner, derives from a Greek root meaning "untouchable"
rather than "Egyptian", according to the US Holocaust Museum website.)
- The term "Indian File" for walking in a line, one after another, doesn't
suggest anything particularly derogatory about Native Americans; I think it's an
observation or speculation that the way East Coast (forest-dwelling) indigenous people
walked through forests on minimal trails was in single file. We can point out that white
society thinks there are many admirable things about native peoples - the whole
"Indian Guides" thing shows that - and that the use of the world
"Indian" in that isn't intended to be offensive, etc, etc, and yet the
obviously right thing to do was to start saying "single file" instead, because
the benefits of not pointlessly offending people vastly outweighed the benefits of
continuing to use a non-descriptive term. It's virtually never effective and rarely
kind to tell people they shouldn't be offended.
- By me, the same logic suggests that we should stop calling the figure gypsy. We can go
at length into why it's not named after Gypsies, why "Gypsy" is a superset
name that includes Rom and other traveling people, some of whom don't mind it, the use
of gypsy to mean "traveler" (from which dance gypsy, Gypsy moth, etc, derive),
the admiring use of gypsy to mean free spirit ("gypsy in my soul"), etc, but
none of that actually matters in this context. What actual benefit do we derive from
calling it "gypsy", other than the sunk cost of having a community of people who
know it by that name? It's not descriptive. (It is evocative and we have a bunch of
dances with "gypsy" in the name; not sure what to do about those.)
(I had been thinking that it would be very difficult to get a universal change of name
for the figure in the absence of a Callerlab for Contra, but Yoyo's post (where he
says he'll just drop the name and prompt by which shoulder you go around) opened my
eyes to the possibility of effective individual action by callers; you don't need
universal agreement on a new name. That does open the door to a dancer on the floor
saying "you mean gypsy?" but I guess you can say "that name is
offensive to some people".) I'm going to have to think more about this for my
own practice as an English and a contra caller.
- I'm personally interested in the history of things and how they got their names,
and I'm convinced that gypsy in contra was picked up from gypsy in English which was
picked up from "whole-gyp" and "half-gyp" in Morris and that
there's not necessarily any relationship of the name to any group of people in origin,
and I do not believe that in naming the figure anybody was saying anything about the
stereotypical characteristics of any people. I really, with all the intellectual honesty
I have available, don't believe that. (And I've heard different stereotypical
characteristics assumed to be the origin - sexuality, untrustworthiness, tendency to do
non-touching dances, so I think these are all just-so stories, ex post facto
rationalizations.) I don't think this blameless origin is a reason to keep the name,
and I know it's absolutely ineffective to point out the blameless origin to somebody
who's offended.
That's the end of my argument, but I have more thoughts.
- This is different from people who are offended by callers who sexualize the figure,
which they could do whatever it's called. I don't mind gypsy meltdowns, but I
find "until you just can't stand it anymore" kinda tedious; let's just
walk around each other maintaining a comfortable level of eye contact until the music
tells us to swing, how about that?) (And I think sexualizing things and telling dancers
how they're supposed to feel, especially if it's sexual, is just getting more and
more passe as different people of different (and no) sexual orientation are dancing on
different sides of the set. We're all people, we're all dancing together,
that's enough.)
- I *like* the figure, and I really like the dance providing a safe space to look at
somebody else's face and look them in the eye without it necessarily signaling
anything. In the general world meeting people's eyes can carry a lot of unintended
freight; I think it's great to have a place where you can just do it as part of the
dance. Ideally a connection is established, but there are all kinds of connections and
they're not necessarily sexual. (Which is not to say that I haven't gotten
stirred up, even in meltdown-free, far-apart English dance gypsies, but that's way
different from the caller telling everybody they're supposed to.)
-- Alan
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25 Oct
25 Oct
6:32 p.m.
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Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844
6:56 p.m.
The use of gypsy as a contra dance term is almost as offensive as a contra dance
containing a shadow swing. (JUST KIDDING)
I would suggest a response of the following nature:
Hello _______
As you noted, (i) you were impressed by the friendliness of the dancers, the quality
of the musicians, and the overall fun of the dance; and (ii) this was probably the best
first experience Iyou had when meeting a new dance community.
On the political spectrum, contra dancers on average are far to the left of center, with
quite a few very far to the left. They would not tolerate a term with intent of
disparaging any group.The term gypsy (walking around another dancer shoulder to shoulder)
has been used in contra dancing ever since the motion was introduced into contra
dancing--probably several decades ago. [Insert information about the origin of the use
of gypsy from previous posts on this thread.]Many words and expressions have origins long
forgotten in the context of their current usage. You can find many examples of such at
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/words-literally-changed-meaning-throug… xx
years of contra dancing, yours is the first lament about this word that I ever heard.
For contra dancers the word has no other meaning than walking around another shoulder to
shoulder.
Our contra dance community takes great pride in the friendliness and fun of our dances
Hope to see you at our next dance.
Regards,____________
Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844
26 Oct
26 Oct
2:16 p.m.
On 2015-10-25 1556, Michael Fuerst via Callers wrote:
The use of gypsy as a contra dance term is almost as
offensive as a
contra dance containing a shadow swing. (JUST KIDDING)
I would suggest a response of the following nature:
Hello _______
snip
I'd almost stop there.
The most significant action/interaction has occurred, the person spoke
up. The useful thing is to acknowledge it -- receipt of the communication.
(As an operator in many radio communication services I can easily attest
to the fact that an indication of receipt is different from one stating
agreement.)
Were I writing in response (to that which I have not seen, or felt a
reaction to), I might state in my version of a kindly tone, "Thank you
for writing, and expressing your concern." . . . point of view, etc. as
one considers it useful.
There is little need to explain anything. They wish to speak, be heard.
Indicating they've been heard is likely to be the most satisfying thing
to them.
Perhaps have a look for the most excellent philosophy of Bruce Hamilton
on giving and receiving feedback.
Cheers, John
--
J.D. Erskine
Victoria, BC
4:18 p.m.
On Mon, Oct 26, 2015, JD Erskine iDance via Callers wrote:
The most significant action/interaction has occurred, the person spoke up.
The useful thing is to acknowledge it -- receipt of the communication.
(As an operator in many radio communication services I can easily attest to
the fact that an indication of receipt is different from one stating
agreement.)
That is true.
Were I writing in response (to that which I have not
seen, or felt a
reaction to), I might state in my version of a kindly tone, "Thank you for
writing, and expressing your concern." . . . point of view, etc. as one
considers it useful.
There is little need to explain anything. They wish to speak, be heard.
Indicating they've been heard is likely to be the most satisfying thing to
them.
Maybe. I have certainly been in situations where I actually do want
action, and a simple acknowledgment of receipt might make me angrier.
That can be doubly or triply true when I suspect that the person has not
understood my point, so I would at minimum encourage "mirroring":
rephrasing what the person said in your own words and asking if that's
what they meant.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
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