2 Jan
2013
2 Jan
'13
2:03 p.m.
Don, that's an interesting point. Having experienced some of those chestnuts only very
recently in my dance experience, I can now see that much of the lead/follow dynamic
probably was brought in by modern choreography. Fron what ive seen, the chestnuts do not
emphasize swinging, and the older right-and-left figures did not include a courtesy turn
as we now know it. So maybe the lead/follow dynamic is increasingly characteristic of
modern contra dances but not intrinsic to the basic form itself. Of course I bet many
would argue that they come to dance because of the modern choreography that is so unlike
those chestnuts.
Please bear in mind, I'm hoping to not imply my own biases here, just trying to
brainstorm some logical conclusions. I personally love all position dancing, and I love
flourishes of every stripe when in the company of like-minded folks. If anything I have
failed thus far to adequately develop my skill and confidence at leading swings from the
right-hand position. As in, if we end the swing late, I feel like I had little to no
recourse in preventing that, but maybe that attitude needs to be changed by learning some
better follow skills. Oops :-)
Brian
Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
3 Jan
3 Jan
1:19 a.m.
New subject: Alternate Role Terms
I was going to chime I about historical precedent, but that has partly been done. I
don't think a swing is ended by just one dancer. It is a mutually decided thing, and
from the right side I can time the end, stop, or alter a flourish so it puts me in the
right place, control the speed of the swing and help a new dancer swing better just with
my body. There is no special leadership in the left role during a swing. And in a
courtesy turn, while it is true you are doing two different things, the forward walker can
get where she is going unassisted. The courtesy is in engaging with her with hand and
eye, not in propelling her. The action is in the joined left hands, and that only works
if both give equal resistance. I think even modern choreography does not require one
gender role to lead. They may choose to, and to add embellishments, but it is not
essential. I matter which gender role I dance, what I want from my partner is good
connection and counterbalance. I love the flourishes, don't get me wrong, but they
aren't the dance.
Andrea
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 2, 2013, at 2:03 PM, Brian Hamshar <bhamshar(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
Don, that's an interesting point. Having
experienced some of those chestnuts only very recently in my dance experience, I can now
see that much of the lead/follow dynamic probably was brought in by modern choreography.
Fron what ive seen, the chestnuts do not emphasize swinging, and the older right-and-left
figures did not include a courtesy turn as we now know it. So maybe the lead/follow
dynamic is increasingly characteristic of modern contra dances but not intrinsic to the
basic form itself. Of course I bet many would argue that they come to dance because of the
modern choreography that is so unlike those chestnuts.
Please bear in mind, I'm hoping to not imply my own biases here, just trying to
brainstorm some logical conclusions. I personally love all position dancing, and I love
flourishes of every stripe when in the company of like-minded folks. If anything I have
failed thus far to adequately develop my skill and confidence at leading swings from the
right-hand position. As in, if we end the swing late, I feel like I had little to no
recourse in preventing that, but maybe that attitude needs to be changed by learning some
better follow skills. Oops :-)
Brian
Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
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9:17 a.m.
New subject: Alternate Role Terms
Anyone who has learned ballroom/couple dances (waltz, foxtrot, swing,tango) understands
what the lead/follow roles are. Contra dancing is not lead/follow.
Donna Hunt
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrea Nettleton <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 1:19 am
Subject: Re: [Callers] Alternate Role Terms
I think even modern choreography does not require one gender role to lead. They may
choose to, and to add embellishments, but it is not essential. I matter which gender role
I dance, what I want from my partner is good connection and counterbalance. I love the
flourishes, don't get me wrong, but they aren't the dance. AndreaSent from my
iPhone
12:23 p.m.
New subject: Alternate Role Terms
Amen to that
On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 09:17 -0500, Donna Hunt wrote:
Anyone who has learned ballroom/couple dances (waltz,
foxtrot, swing,tango) understands what the lead/follow roles are. Contra dancing is not
lead/follow.
Donna Hunt
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrea Nettleton <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 1:19 am
Subject: Re: [Callers] Alternate Role Terms
I think even modern choreography does not require one gender role to lead. They may
choose to, and to add embellishments, but it is not essential. I matter which gender role
I dance, what I want from my partner is good connection and counterbalance. I love the
flourishes, don't get me wrong, but they aren't the dance. AndreaSent from my
iPhone
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2:32 p.m.
New subject: Alternate Role Terms
Donna wrote:
Anyone who has learned ballroom/couple dances (waltz,
foxtrot,
swing,tango) understands what the lead/follow roles are. Contra dancing is
not lead/follow.
Contra dance is not waltz, foxtrot, swing, or tango. It also does not have
"leader" and "follower" roles. But it most certainly does have leads
and
follows, lots of them.
This is an example of how the framings from couple dancing can be
problematic when discussing called community dancing, and contras in
particular. The couple dances mentioned above use a very restricted
meaning for their own purposes. In the English language "lead" and
"follow" have much broader meanings. Schools of fish, flocks of birds,
herds of deer, and groupings of many social insects all organize themselves
with individuals "leading" and "following" each other.
This is an important concept...particularly in social dance. To suggest
that people do not lead or follow in contra dance is to block any
discussion of how this remarkable dance form *works*. The core idea of
"sweeping newcomers into the dance" is predicated on the assumption that
the regulars are leading newcomers through the figures.
I hope that those of you who suggest contras are not a "lead/follow" dance
form will please "follow" my "lead" in this matter and allow us to use
the
common English meaning of the word to discuss a core concept that--I would
argue--is more central to contras than it is to Tango or other partner
dances.
This misunderstanding could have great impacts on this dance form. It
appears that many contra dance callers have accepted the notion that
"contras are not a lead/follow dance form" and the result is that they
insist on teaching from the mike when the regulars could quickly lead the
newcomers through the figures.
This is an unfortunate situation in the contra dance movement. We need to
recognize that it is the ability of the regulars to lead the newcomers that
makes this dance form so accessible.
I know that this does not match the restricted way you learned to use these
words. But please allow us to use common English to discuss this core
concept in contra dance.
Just a thought.
- Greg McKenzie
3:08 p.m.
New subject: Alternate Role Terms
Greg,
I would agree with your idea that the leading/following comes from more
experienced dancers leading the newcomers, but I think that's tangential to
the discussion about what we call the roles. I don't believe anyone's
uniformly suggesting there's no "leading / following" in general, though,
yes, I realize simply stating, "Oh, there's no leading or following in
contra" is ambiguous and, technically speaking, you're correct. But I think
that's a matter of semantics; people saying that are speaking in the
context of roles between partners, and I don't think they're broadening it
to contra in general. (Though, it is an interesting thought to me to
consider how lead/follow is more of a community, whole-line-of-people thing
rather than a role thing. It probably has something to do with how I got
hooked into contra in the first place.)
In dance,
Ron
On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Greg McKenzie <grekenzie(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Contra dance is not waltz, foxtrot, swing, or tango. It also does not have
"leader" and "follower" roles. But it most certainly does have leads
and
follows, lots of them.
This is an example of how the framings from couple dancing can be
problematic when discussing called community dancing, and contras in
particular. The couple dances mentioned above use a very restricted
meaning for their own purposes. In the English language "lead" and
"follow" have much broader meanings. Schools of fish, flocks of birds,
herds of deer, and groupings of many social insects all organize themselves
with individuals "leading" and "following" each other.
This is an important concept...particularly in social dance. To suggest
that people do not lead or follow in contra dance is to block any
discussion of how this remarkable dance form *works*. The core idea of
"sweeping newcomers into the dance" is predicated on the assumption that
the regulars are leading newcomers through the figures.
I hope that those of you who suggest contras are not a "lead/follow" dance
form will please "follow" my "lead" in this matter and allow us to
use the
common English meaning of the word to discuss a core concept that--I would
argue--is more central to contras than it is to Tango or other partner
dances.
This misunderstanding could have great impacts on this dance form. It
appears that many contra dance callers have accepted the notion that
"contras are not a lead/follow dance form" and the result is that they
insist on teaching from the mike when the regulars could quickly lead the
newcomers through the figures.
This is an unfortunate situation in the contra dance movement. We need to
recognize that it is the ability of the regulars to lead the newcomers that
makes this dance form so accessible.
I know that this does not match the restricted way you learned to use these
words. But please allow us to use common English to discuss this core
concept in contra dance.
Just a thought.
- Greg McKenzie
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5 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Andrea Nettleton -
Brian Hamshar -
Donna Hunt -
Greg McKenzie -
Michael Barraclough -
Ron T Blechner