2 Sep
2011
2 Sep
'11
7:44 a.m.
What a great discussion - some wonderful ideas and quotes to use.
But I am afraid that I don't agree with everything that has been said,
and I see some people have also already sent in some dissenting comments
to some of the statements that have been made.
Please forgive me if I have misunderstood anything, but the written word
is not the best way to communicate, and American English v UK English
can sometimes be a challenge as well.
Someone said:
"The ladies put their left hand over the gent's shoulder"
I don't believe that it is a good idea to tell the lady to put her hand
over the gent's shoulder.
1) Quite often the length of the man's arm and the relative heights and
position of the bodies mean that it is not easy for the lady to reach
there, so she ends up pulling him too close.
2) What is she going to do with it when she puts it there? She
shouldn't be using it to hang on with as she should be keeping her own
balance.
3) If you want to add any interesting variations, during the swing, or
on the exit, then the lady's hand being stuck behind the man means you
are very limited in what you can do without dislocating her shoulder.
A MUCH better position for the lady's hand is resting gently on the
man's upper arm so that she can turn in either direction easily.
"and lean back very gently."
I find it VERY dangerous to suggest to anyone that they should lean in
any part of the dance. A swing should be an effortless, relaxed
symmetrical, counter-balanced, coupling that both parties can enjoy.
You are responsible for your own balance at all times in a dance. If
you let go in a swing then you will move backwards because of
centrifugal force, but you shouldn't fall over. Leaning back commits
part of your weight to your partner who then has to waste their energy
trying to stop you falling over; it takes them off balance and is very
tiring.
"If they can't hold themselves up, their hand is in the wrong place."
They shouldn't be trying to hold themselves up by using their partner -
that is what their legs are for!
"Then I place the gent's hands and point out to the ladies that if it's
uncomfortable they should tell the gent, as he probably won't know if
you don't tell him."
Absolutely, but you should also tell the men to let the ladies know if
it is uncomfortable. The ladies can be just as bad - I have met ones who
push, pull, lean, drag, lift, squeeze, strangle, clamp, grip, dig in or
hang off the man!
"Push gently against those pointy hands."
Why? The connection is through the man's right hand on the lady's left
shoulder-blade. Any tension you put into your other hands is wasted
energy, and prevents interesting variations and exits (see article
reference below).
Someone else said:
"The upper back remains essentially upright,"
Yes.
"but pressing into the hands wrapped around them."
Why? The man places his hand gently on the lady's left shoulder-blade.
They spin. Centrifugal force will generate some pressure at the
connection point. Why do you want any more? Pressing in causes
discomfort and is completely unnecessary.
I prefer to say gentle counter-balance rather than counter-weight -
changes the emphasis to be more positive.
The swing should be relaxed and the only tension you need to put into it
is the minimum necessary to overcome the centrifugal force. It is
dancing, not wrestling! :-)
There have also been lots of references to "giving weight". This is a
technical dance term, useful in a dance studio for certain dance styles
when there is plenty of time to teach what it really means; but it is
too easily misunderstood, resulting in people thinking that they have to
lean backwards or pull. I try to avoid the term.
I swing very fast and do countless variations of entry, swing-type, and
exit. But only if my partner is balanced and relaxed! Otherwise I go
for a slow swing and try to protect myself from injury.
For a much fuller description of how I teach swinging please see:
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/Contra.html#swinging
And more about technique in the article below it:
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/Contra.html#connection
If you like either of those articles and want to use them you will find
a downloaded PDF just below each article.
If you want to improve your twirls (as in Ladies' Chains) and swing
variations/entries/exits then you may find this article useful:
http://www.modernjive.com/history/tension.html
It was written for a different dance style, but the principles still
apply.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England <mailto:john@modernjive.com>
john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
<http://www.modernjive.com> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive
Events, Instructional DVDs and Interactive Maps
<http://www.contrafusion.co.uk> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for
Dancing in Kent
2 Sep
2 Sep
8:26 a.m.
i was the one who made a number of those statements, and i'll defend them now.
i focus a LOT on my teaching, especially beginners, and have very actively pursued
comments from new and old dancers and people attending my classes.
one of the biggest complaints i have had over the years is from guys with painful
shoulders and backs from swinging women who make the gents do all the work. i believe
this is a direct result of ladies who put their hands on the front of the gents' arm
and make him pull her through the swing (even if she's six feet tall and he's six
inches shorter and at his very first dance).
the ladies aren't trying to hold themselves up by putting their hand of the gents'
shoulder (and i have very rarely found height to be a problem). but the ARE holding on to
the gent a little bit so that he isn't the only one working during the swing. the
hand is not on his back, but the top of his shoulder. i have NEVER found this position to
get in the way of any fancy twirling or figures, and it does give me something to hold on
to so that i CAN keep my balance (which also makes it a little easier on my partner).
having danced at many dances where there is a gender imbalance, i've sp end many whole
evenings dancing as a gent. then i live on ibuprofen for a week because my shoulders
ache.
in part, this is certainly a response to protecting yourself from dancers who have been
taught to swing by "leaning back", gently or not. once you say it, you
can't take it back. no guarantee that beginners will hear anything else - they DO
lean back if you say it. and then it's a very hard habit to break.
i have also had many people tell me that the instruction to push on the pointy hands has
helped them make the connection with their partner and has made learning to swing easier.
having practiced my teaching at somewhere around a thousand dances, i'm finding that
it works for me and, from the comments i've gotten, for most of the people i'm
calling for.
everybody should use what works for them. i haven't heard anything in this discussion
yet that is convincing me to change what i'm doing.
i have been to england and danced there many times, though it has been a few years. my
perception is that, in general, american contras are far more high energy than contras in
england. with the more sedate swings that i experienced there, maybe holding on and
worrying about the guys doing all the work isn't the same thing. also, dancers who
were at the "dancers' dances" (the equivalent of our local dances) tended to
have at least some experience. inexperienced dancers went to ceilis, where most of the
swinging i saw were elbow swings. we don't generally have that kind of separation
there. as i said, it's been a few years since i was there.
From: info(a)contrafusion.co.uk
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 13:44:47 +0100
Subject: [Callers] Re Swinging
What a great discussion - some wonderful ideas and quotes to use.
But I am afraid that I don't agree with everything that has been said,
and I see some people have also already sent in some dissenting comments
to some of the statements that have been made.
Please forgive me if I have misunderstood anything, but the written word
is not the best way to communicate, and American English v UK English
can sometimes be a challenge as well.
Someone said:
"The ladies put their left hand over the gent's shoulder"
I don't believe that it is a good idea to tell the lady to put her hand
over the gent's shoulder.
1) Quite often the length of the man's arm and the relative heights and
position of the bodies mean that it is not easy for the lady to reach
there, so she ends up pulling him too close.
2) What is she going to do with it when she puts it there? She
shouldn't be using it to hang on with as she should be keeping her own
balance.
3) If you want to add any interesting variations, during the swing, or
on the exit, then the lady's hand being stuck behind the man means you
are very limited in what you can do without dislocating her shoulder.
A MUCH better position for the lady's hand is resting gently on the
man's upper arm so that she can turn in either direction easily.
"and lean back very gently."
I find it VERY dangerous to suggest to anyone that they should lean in
any part of the dance. A swing should be an effortless, relaxed
symmetrical, counter-balanced, coupling that both parties can enjoy.
You are responsible for your own balance at all times in a dance. If
you let go in a swing then you will move backwards because of
centrifugal force, but you shouldn't fall over. Leaning back commits
part of your weight to your partner who then has to waste their energy
trying to stop you falling over; it takes them off balance and is very
tiring.
"If they can't hold themselves up, their hand is in the wrong place."
They shouldn't be trying to hold themselves up by using their partner -
that is what their legs are for!
"Then I place the gent's hands and point out to the ladies that if it's
uncomfortable they should tell the gent, as he probably won't know if
you don't tell him."
Absolutely, but you should also tell the men to let the ladies know if
it is uncomfortable. The ladies can be just as bad - I have met ones who
push, pull, lean, drag, lift, squeeze, strangle, clamp, grip, dig in or
hang off the man!
"Push gently against those pointy hands."
Why? The connection is through the man's right hand on the lady's left
shoulder-blade. Any tension you put into your other hands is wasted
energy, and prevents interesting variations and exits (see article
reference below).
Someone else said:
"The upper back remains essentially upright,"
Yes.
"but pressing into the hands wrapped around them."
Why? The man places his hand gently on the lady's left shoulder-blade.
They spin. Centrifugal force will generate some pressure at the
connection point. Why do you want any more? Pressing in causes
discomfort and is completely unnecessary.
I prefer to say gentle counter-balance rather than counter-weight -
changes the emphasis to be more positive.
The swing should be relaxed and the only tension you need to put into it
is the minimum necessary to overcome the centrifugal force. It is
dancing, not wrestling! :-)
There have also been lots of references to "giving weight". This is a
technical dance term, useful in a dance studio for certain dance styles
when there is plenty of time to teach what it really means; but it is
too easily misunderstood, resulting in people thinking that they have to
lean backwards or pull. I try to avoid the term.
I swing very fast and do countless variations of entry, swing-type, and
exit. But only if my partner is balanced and relaxed! Otherwise I go
for a slow swing and try to protect myself from injury.
For a much fuller description of how I teach swinging please see:
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/Contra.html#swinging
And more about technique in the article below it:
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/Contra.html#connection
If you like either of those articles and want to use them you will find
a downloaded PDF just below each article.
If you want to improve your twirls (as in Ladies' Chains) and swing
variations/entries/exits then you may find this article useful:
http://www.modernjive.com/history/tension.html
It was written for a different dance style, but the principles still
apply.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England <mailto:john@modernjive.com>
john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
<http://www.modernjive.com> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive
Events, Instructional DVDs and Interactive Maps
<http://www.contrafusion.co.uk> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for
Dancing in Kent
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
8:47 a.m.
As a dancer, I prefer to put my left hand over my partner's shoulder.
Definitely it helps us to share weight. It also depends on what dance
style it is that you are swinging in and what the next move is after
swinging - flowing into the next move is desirable. Also, I have a
better chance at maintaining distance between myself and my partner if
I wish.
Cheers,
Aylwen Gardiner-Garden
On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 11:26 PM, barb kirchner <barbkirchner(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
i was the one who made a number of those statements, and i'll defend them now.
i focus a LOT on my teaching, especially beginners, and have very actively pursued
comments from new and old dancers and people attending my classes.
one of the biggest complaints i have had over the years is from guys with painful
shoulders and backs from swinging women who make the gents do all the work. i believe
this is a direct result of ladies who put their hands on the front of the gents' arm
and make him pull her through the swing (even if she's six feet tall and he's six
inches shorter and at his very first dance).
the ladies aren't trying to hold themselves up by putting their hand of the
gents' shoulder (and i have very rarely found height to be a problem). but the ARE
holding on to the gent a little bit so that he isn't the only one working during the
swing. the hand is not on his back, but the top of his shoulder. i have NEVER found this
position to get in the way of any fancy twirling or figures, and it does give me something
to hold on to so that i CAN keep my balance (which also makes it a little easier on my
partner).
having danced at many dances where there is a gender imbalance, i've sp end many
whole evenings dancing as a gent. then i live on ibuprofen for a week because my
shoulders ache.
in part, this is certainly a response to protecting yourself from dancers who have been
taught to swing by "leaning back", gently or not. once you say it, you
can't take it back. no guarantee that beginners will hear anything else - they DO
lean back if you say it. and then it's a very hard habit to break.
i have also had many people tell me that the instruction to push on the pointy hands has
helped them make the connection with their partner and has made learning to swing easier.
having practiced my teaching at somewhere around a thousand dances, i'm finding that
it works for me and, from the comments i've gotten, for most of the people i'm
calling for.
everybody should use what works for them. i haven't heard anything in this
discussion yet that is convincing me to change what i'm doing.
i have been to england and danced there many times, though it has been a few years. my
perception is that, in general, american contras are far more high energy than contras in
england. with the more sedate swings that i experienced there, maybe holding on and
worrying about the guys doing all the work isn't the same thing. also, dancers who
were at the "dancers' dances" (the equivalent of our local dances) tended to
have at least some experience. inexperienced dancers went to ceilis, where most of the
swinging i saw were elbow swings. we don't generally have that kind of separation
there. as i said, it's been a few years since i was there.
From: info(a)contrafusion.co.uk
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 13:44:47 +0100
Subject: [Callers] Re Swinging
What a great discussion - some wonderful ideas and quotes to use.
But I am afraid that I don't agree with everything that has been said,
and I see some people have also already sent in some dissenting comments
to some of the statements that have been made.
Please forgive me if I have misunderstood anything, but the written word
is not the best way to communicate, and American English v UK English
can sometimes be a challenge as well.
Someone said:
"The ladies put their left hand over the gent's shoulder"
I don't believe that it is a good idea to tell the lady to put her hand
over the gent's shoulder.
1) Quite often the length of the man's arm and the relative heights and
position of the bodies mean that it is not easy for the lady to reach
there, so she ends up pulling him too close.
2) What is she going to do with it when she puts it there? She
shouldn't be using it to hang on with as she should be keeping her own
balance.
3) If you want to add any interesting variations, during the swing, or
on the exit, then the lady's hand being stuck behind the man means you
are very limited in what you can do without dislocating her shoulder.
A MUCH better position for the lady's hand is resting gently on the
man's upper arm so that she can turn in either direction easily.
"and lean back very gently."
I find it VERY dangerous to suggest to anyone that they should lean in
any part of the dance. A swing should be an effortless, relaxed
symmetrical, counter-balanced, coupling that both parties can enjoy.
You are responsible for your own balance at all times in a dance. If
you let go in a swing then you will move backwards because of
centrifugal force, but you shouldn't fall over. Leaning back commits
part of your weight to your partner who then has to waste their energy
trying to stop you falling over; it takes them off balance and is very
tiring.
"If they can't hold themselves up, their hand is in the wrong place."
They shouldn't be trying to hold themselves up by using their partner -
that is what their legs are for!
"Then I place the gent's hands and point out to the ladies that if it's
uncomfortable they should tell the gent, as he probably won't know if
you don't tell him."
Absolutely, but you should also tell the men to let the ladies know if
it is uncomfortable. The ladies can be just as bad - I have met ones who
push, pull, lean, drag, lift, squeeze, strangle, clamp, grip, dig in or
hang off the man!
"Push gently against those pointy hands."
Why? The connection is through the man's right hand on the lady's left
shoulder-blade. Any tension you put into your other hands is wasted
energy, and prevents interesting variations and exits (see article
reference below).
Someone else said:
"The upper back remains essentially upright,"
Yes.
"but pressing into the hands wrapped around them."
Why? The man places his hand gently on the lady's left shoulder-blade.
They spin. Centrifugal force will generate some pressure at the
connection point. Why do you want any more? Pressing in causes
discomfort and is completely unnecessary.
I prefer to say gentle counter-balance rather than counter-weight -
changes the emphasis to be more positive.
The swing should be relaxed and the only tension you need to put into it
is the minimum necessary to overcome the centrifugal force. It is
dancing, not wrestling! :-)
There have also been lots of references to "giving weight". This is a
technical dance term, useful in a dance studio for certain dance styles
when there is plenty of time to teach what it really means; but it is
too easily misunderstood, resulting in people thinking that they have to
lean backwards or pull. I try to avoid the term.
I swing very fast and do countless variations of entry, swing-type, and
exit. But only if my partner is balanced and relaxed! Otherwise I go
for a slow swing and try to protect myself from injury.
For a much fuller description of how I teach swinging please see:
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/Contra.html#swinging
And more about technique in the article below it:
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/Contra.html#connection
If you like either of those articles and want to use them you will find
a downloaded PDF just below each article.
If you want to improve your twirls (as in Ladies' Chains) and swing
variations/entries/exits then you may find this article useful:
http://www.modernjive.com/history/tension.html
It was written for a different dance style, but the principles still
apply.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England <mailto:john@modernjive.com>
john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
<http://www.modernjive.com> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive
Events, Instructional DVDs and Interactive Maps
<http://www.contrafusion.co.uk> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for
Dancing in Kent
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
9:16 a.m.
barb kirchner wrote:
one of the biggest complaints i have had over the years is from guys
with painful shoulders and backs from swinging women who make the
gents do all the work. i believe this is a direct result of ladies
who put their hands on the front of the gents' arm and make him pull
her through the swing (even if she's six feet tall and he's six
inches shorter and at his very first dance).
Totally agree. The issue is not vertical support but horizontal. If
either person relaxes their arms, the other should be able to keep the
two people together and swinging.
One of the reasons I like dancing the lady more than the gent is that
my arms are less likely to hurt afterwards.
Jeff
10:28 a.m.
I often dance the male role and after a few dances, my arms and
shoulders are tired! So I understand about the extra work whoever is
dancing that role takes on. When teaching the swing, its good to let
the dancers know that the best swings are ones where both partners
give weight and take responsibility.
The Hambo is a great example, even though position is different.
Turning is totally a shared effort.
Susan
On Sep 2, 2011, at 10:16 AM, Jeff Kaufman wrote:
barb kirchner wrote:
one of the biggest complaints i have had over the years is from guys
with painful shoulders and backs from swinging women who make the
gents do all the work. i believe this is a direct result of ladies
who put their hands on the front of the gents' arm and make him pull
her through the swing (even if she's six feet tall and he's six
inches shorter and at his very first dance).
Totally agree. The issue is not vertical support but horizontal. If
either person relaxes their arms, the other should be able to keep the
two people together and swinging.
One of the reasons I like dancing the lady more than the gent is that
my arms are less likely to hurt afterwards.
Jeff
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4 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
Aylwen Gardiner-Garden -
barb kirchner -
Jeff Kaufman -
John Sweeney -
Susan Moffett