Here's a secret fourth thing: how do we feel about calling a shadow swing dance (if it was otherwise desirable for some reason) but swapping out the swing for a do-si-do or something similar? Is that too much modification by the caller, or too little to solve the problem? On Tue, Jul 30, 2024, 10:52 AM Amy Wimmer via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

I think there's a bit of privilege being shown in this thread that needs to be addressed. Those who are admonishing others for avoiding shadow swings clearly haven't been put in a position where they felt unsafe swinging with someone they didn't choose, and then being (more or less) forced to continue to swing with that person throughout an entire dance. And I'm not just talking about feeling uncomfortable with someone's personality, sexual harassment, or general bigotry. I'm also talking about unsafe dance practices like forceful/non-consentual flourishes/dips, improper weight given, unsafe swinging speeds without paying attention to the needs of the person you're swinging with, ignoring (and therefore exacerbating) an existing injury... The list goes on. The swing is arguably the move that requires the most trust in the other person, and not being able to choose someone that you're doing half the swings in a dance with can cause some unsafe situations for various reasons. A single swing with a neighbor can usually be accommodated, but much more than that can become dangerous. Also, people are allowed to just not like shadow-swings without giving a reason or explaining themself. They are allowed to find them confusing/disorienting. Just as others are allowed to enjoy them. People are also allowed to avoid dancing with certain people for any reason whatsoever; yes we want to be inclusive, but inclusivity to the point of ignoring the safety/comfort of the individual runs into the Horseshoe Problem (ie. pushing an issue so far that you end up causing the problems you set out to avoid). To bring it back to the topic at hand, I think a good rule of thumb as a caller (and one I employ on the rare occasion I choose a dance with a shadow swing) is telling people that the next dance has a shadow swing in it, in advance of the walkthrough. And then giving people a chance to choose to sit out or even join a different line if they have concerns. That way, those that enjoy the move can have a nice time, and those that don't aren't forced into an unsafe situation until they can get to the end of a line to drop out. On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, 10:39 Maia McCormick via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

Would never call a dance with a shadow swing. On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 9:40 AM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

But, Neal, we handle different neighbors swinging us each cycle just fine. Why is it a big deal if our shadows change? Almost everyone knows that shadows get messed up. A rank newbie might not, but then they also barely understand the concept of a shadow anyway. Surely, if the caller says, "this should be the same person throughout the dance, but sometimes people jump in or swap roles, so it might not be. Dance with who's comin' atcha," it should be no more confusing than a neighbor swing. I don't see anyone proposing that we stop calling neighbor swings. I get the concerns about Problem Dancers, but that's a different line of argument from the confusingness concern (dealing with that problem in and of itself, beyond the shadow swing question, belongs in its own thread, if we want to pursue it again). Agreed that there are communities that might welcome shadow swings more than others, like shadow sessions at weekends, or relatively tight communities without a PD present, or certain dance weekends in small/tight communities. I would be really interested in some data on this one, phrasing it as, speaking only for your own personal interests, if a caller said the next dance had a shadow swing, how would you react? A. Fine, I like swings. B. Mild concern that I'd be stuck with someone I wasn't comfortable with as my shadow. C. Quite concerned, but take no action. D. Check my shadow and possibly move during the walkthrough. E. I would not dance. --jh-- On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 2:03 AM Neal Schlein &lt;nschlein(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > It is absolutely more disorienting. > > The swing is one of very few moves (if not the only one) in which people > may or may not change set position based on which role they are > dancing/used to dancing and where they started the move from as a standard > matter. It is also executed differently based on which role you are > dancing, and may or may not be executed differently based on whether you > and the other person are physically presenting as male/female/other. > > Name me another figure with those variables that happens at a regular > dance. > > Change the people involved in any swing unexpectedly, and you’re > exponentially more likely to get an unexpected result. > > Neal Schlein > Librarian, MSLIS > > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 4:49 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < > contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: > >> Is it really any more disorienting to have a shadow change in a dance >> with a shadow swing vs., say, an allemande or another move? >> >> --jh-- >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 6:08 PM Joseph Erhard-Hudson via Contra Callers < >> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >> >>> Re: partners swapping during shadow dances and confusing their >>> respective shadows (I think of it as Peter Pan-ing, on account of our >>> shadows coming detached)… I appreciate events where there are designated >>> chaos lines so those who are in the mood for them can indulge to their >>> hearts’ content. I suppose there could be no-shenanigans lines >>> alternatively. Or couples who are likely to swap could give their shadows a >>> heads up during walk-through. >>> >>> -Joseph >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 2:45 PM Mary Collins via Contra Callers < >>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>> >>>> # 2. No problem, but rarely call >>>> >>>> As dancer - meh...biggest issue is when there is suddenly a new shadow >>>> due to dancers joining late or some other mix. As I age I find I get >>>> disoriented when my point of reference suddenly changes. I imagine, for a >>>> new dancer who has been told this person, your shadow will/should be the >>>> same person every time, it could be confusing as well. IMHO >>>> >>>> Mary Collins >>>> WNY/ST (Western New York/Southern Tier) >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, 10:39 AM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers < >>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>>> Prompted by some recent conversations, I’m curious how folks here >>>>> feel about shadow swings! >>>>> >>>>> 1. As a caller, do you: >>>>> A) not have an issue with shadow swings, and program them freely >>>>> B) not tend to program them just bc they don’t come up in your >>>>> repertoire, but have no issue with them >>>>> C) not program shadow swings as a matter of principle >>>>> D) some secret fourth thing (feel free to elaborate!)? >>>>> >>>>> 2. How do you feel about shadow swings as a dancer? >>>>> >>>>> Will weigh in with my thoughts later, both to avoid biasing the >>>>> conversation from the outset, and also because I’m currently in transit 😅 >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for participating in the data gathering! >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Maia >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Maia McCormick (she/her) >>>>> 917.279.8194 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> >

Is it really any more disorienting to have a shadow change in a dance with a shadow swing vs., say, an allemande or another move? --jh-- On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 6:08 PM Joseph Erhard-Hudson via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

# 2. No problem, but rarely call As dancer - meh...biggest issue is when there is suddenly a new shadow due to dancers joining late or some other mix. As I age I find I get disoriented when my point of reference suddenly changes. I imagine, for a new dancer who has been told this person, your shadow will/should be the same person every time, it could be confusing as well. IMHO Mary Collins WNY/ST (Western New York/Southern Tier) On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, 10:39 AM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

I have a few shadow swing dances in my collection. I don't know why I keep them because I don't call them. There is a history of problem dancers (PDs) in my area who are typically male presenting, and robins complain that these people stalk them, both in the dance hall and outside, hold them too closely, are rough, etc. These PDs also tend to make rude remarks, especially to LGBTQ+ dancers. People avoid them at all costs. There used to be a few folks I would avoid for those same reasons. To be sure, I always asked them to stop their troublesome behavior, but there was a handful who refused to comply. Forming a club of "acceptable only" dancers? No. Training those PDs is my goal, both as a caller and as a dance organizer. My fellow organizers and I have been taking statements from complainants, talking to the PDs about their behavior, and suggesting alternatives. If it gets heated we ask them to take a break from dancing until they can behave more politely. That's why I don't call shadow swings. To be clear, our community has, as a whole, gotten way more accepting of gender fluidity/queer, and is a very welcoming body. That means that folks who don't want to accept dancers they think are too different from them don't attend as often as they used to. It's also known in the area that we organizers don't tolerate bad behavior. I think if you told the dancers before line-up that you're going to call a shadow-swing dance it would give them a chance to choose their spots with that in mind. -Amy On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, 7:39 AM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

I recently danced in two dances with shadow swings, one at NEFFA and one at the experienced ("zesty") dance in Boulder, CO. In both dances, it seemed like spending so much time with the shadow wound up making dancers more confused, since if anyone got switched around then the dancers would worry about finding their original shadow. Getting switched around is especially common with experienced dances nowadays, since many dancers will swap roles with their partners, and of course there's just the risk of someone messing up. In addition, there's the concern that others brought up, where it's a lot of interaction throughout the dance with a partner that you didn't choose. I'd personally stay away from them, unless you have an _extremely_ confident group of dancers or the dance just really needs the swing there. Thanks, Gabrielle Taylor On Jul 17, 2024, at 08:39, Maia McCormick via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: Prompted by some recent conversations, I’m curious how folks here feel about shadow swings! 1. As a caller, do you: A) not have an issue with shadow swings, and program them freely B) not tend to program them just bc they don’t come up in your repertoire, but have no issue with them C) not program shadow swings as a matter of principle D) some secret fourth thing (feel free to elaborate!)? 2. How do you feel about shadow swings as a dancer? Will weigh in with my thoughts later, both to avoid biasing the conversation from the outset, and also because I’m currently in transit 😅 Thanks for participating in the data gathering! Cheers, Maia -- Maia McCormick (she/her) 917.279.8194 _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

Solid B. As a dancer I love them. They happen so rarely that they’re a treat. Are there really all that many people I actively DON’T want a swing with? No. Sure, I enjoy swinging with some more than others. But, I probably do 50x as many “service dances” (as in, no, I didn’t really want to dance with that person, but someone needs to, because we are an inclusive community, and I didn’t have the heart to say no) as shadow swings. By stats, the shadow swing will be much better than a service dance. Maybe I get one or two shadow swings a year, vs. several service dances a night. I’m just speaking my own thoughts about my personal dance experience, here, and not saying others need to apply the same logic to themselves. —jh— On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 1:07 PM Gabrielle Taylor via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

On Jul 17, 2024, at 08:39, Maia McCormick via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: Prompted by some recent conversations, I’m curious how folks here feel about shadow swings! 1. As a caller, do you: A) not have an issue with shadow swings, and program them freely B) not tend to program them just bc they don’t come up in your repertoire, but have no issue with them C) not program shadow swings as a matter of principle D) some secret fourth thing (feel free to elaborate!)? 2. How do you feel about shadow swings as a dancer? Will weigh in with my thoughts later, both to avoid biasing the conversation from the outset, and also because I’m currently in transit 😅 Thanks for participating in the data gathering! Cheers, Maia -- Maia McCormick (she/her) 917.279.8194 _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

Prompted by some recent conversations, I’m curious how folks here feel about shadow swings! 1. As a caller, do you: A) not have an issue with shadow swings, and program them freely B) not tend to program them just bc they don’t come up in your repertoire, but have no issue with them C) not program shadow swings as a matter of principle D) some secret fourth thing (feel free to elaborate!)? 2. How do you feel about shadow swings as a dancer? Will weigh in with my thoughts later, both to avoid biasing the conversation from the outset, and also because I’m currently in transit 😅 Thanks for participating in the data gathering! Cheers, Maia -- Maia McCormick (she/her) 917.279.8194 _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net

Prompted by some recent conversations, I’m curious how folks here feel about shadow swings! 1. As a caller, do you: A) not have an issue with shadow swings, and program them freely B) not tend to program them just bc they don’t come up in your repertoire, but have no issue with them C) not program shadow swings as a matter of principle D) some secret fourth thing (feel free to elaborate!)? 2. How do you feel about shadow swings as a dancer? Will weigh in with my thoughts later, both to avoid biasing the conversation from the outset, and also because I’m currently in transit 😅 Thanks for participating in the data gathering! Cheers, Maia -- Maia McCormick (she/her) 917.279.8194 _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net