21 Nov
2022
21 Nov
'22
10:55 a.m.
Hey folks,
Calling the occasional gig again after uh, everything, and I'm finally
inspired to iron out a bit of my beginners' lesson that I've always just
fudged in the past: *when calling gender-neutral, how do you have the
beginners pick roles?*
My spiel is generally, "we have these two roles, they're almost entirely
the same with some small differences, pick one and stick with it for a few
dances just to start and then you can try the other if you want, the most
important thing is knowing which role you are for a given dance."
In my lesson, I alternately:
1. say "whoever's standing on the right of this couple right now, that's
the robin" and then teach the swing in those roles
2. tell folks "decide who's the lark and who's the robin" with no
particular context and they pick arbitrarily
3. teach both sides of the swing and let them choose roles based on
which swing feels more comfortable
But it feels clunky and awkward every time.
I'm curious if others have similar experiences, or things they do in their
lessons that feel effective at getting people into one role (for now) with
a minimum of confusion. Hit me with your wisdom!
*Note: this is NOT an invitation to debate whether contra roles should be
gendered, or which set of role terms we should use, or whether we should
use role terms or positional calling. If you must, please make a separate
thread so I can mute it. If such discussion crops up in this thread, I'd
ask people not to respond, or to take responses to a separate thread.
Thanks.*
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
21 Nov
21 Nov
11:06 a.m.
Besides the things you list, I sometimes mention that there is a bit more twirling
involved in the robin’s role so if you’re prone to dizziness you might prefer lark &
if you like twirling you might prefer robin.
Becky
On Nov 21, 2022, at 11:55 AM, Maia McCormick via
Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hey folks,
Calling the occasional gig again after uh, everything, and I'm finally inspired to
iron out a bit of my beginners' lesson that I've always just fudged in the past:
when calling gender-neutral, how do you have the beginners pick roles?
My spiel is generally, "we have these two roles, they're almost entirely the
same with some small differences, pick one and stick with it for a few dances just to
start and then you can try the other if you want, the most important thing is knowing
which role you are for a given dance."
In my lesson, I alternately:
say "whoever's standing on the right of this couple right now, that's the
robin" and then teach the swing in those roles
tell folks "decide who's the lark and who's the robin" with no
particular context and they pick arbitrarily
teach both sides of the swing and let them choose roles based on which swing feels more
comfortable
But it feels clunky and awkward every time.
I'm curious if others have similar experiences, or things they do in their lessons
that feel effective at getting people into one role (for now) with a minimum of confusion.
Hit me with your wisdom!
Note: this is NOT an invitation to debate whether contra roles should be gendered, or
which set of role terms we should use, or whether we should use role terms or positional
calling. If you must, please make a separate thread so I can mute it. If such discussion
crops up in this thread, I'd ask people not to respond, or to take responses to a
separate thread. Thanks.
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
11:34 a.m.
Coincidentally, this has been on my mind lately.
I've been doing #2 mostly, and it's been working fine.
This has gone both for dances recently where there's mostly experienced
dancers, as well as a few one-night-stand gigs I've done where nearly all
dancers were new.
The advantage - as I think it's likely you're aware already but for the
purposes of discussion - is to drill in the "which role is on which side"
which is often where new dancers can get mixed up and then lost. (A
neighbor swing before a progression, for example.)
I've done #3, and I also like this, though it needs a bit more time and
hard to do in 15 or 20 minutes with the other things I'm teaching, people
running late, etc.
But, I can see why you haven't settled on one.
Maybe where I'd leave it is: #3 works well if time, but I'd prefer to do #2
if I have 20 minutes or less so that I don't skimp on reinforcing Left Side
/ Right Side through repetition of moves.
Maybe it's time to think about my beginner lesson in detail again, and
refine it again.
I'll do a think, and - Maia - feel free to ping me off this list if you
want to workshop this a bit.
Best regards,
Julian Blechner
On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 12:06 PM Becky Liddle via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Besides the things you list, I sometimes mention that
there is a bit more
twirling involved in the robin’s role so if you’re prone to dizziness you
might prefer lark & if you like twirling you might prefer robin.
Becky
On Nov 21, 2022, at 11:55 AM, Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hey folks,
Calling the occasional gig again after uh, everything, and I'm finally
inspired to iron out a bit of my beginners' lesson that I've always just
fudged in the past: *when calling gender-neutral, how do you have the
beginners pick roles?*
My spiel is generally, "we have these two roles, they're almost entirely
the same with some small differences, pick one and stick with it for a few
dances just to start and then you can try the other if you want, the most
important thing is knowing which role you are for a given dance."
In my lesson, I alternately:
1. say "whoever's standing on the right of this couple right now,
that's the robin" and then teach the swing in those roles
2. tell folks "decide who's the lark and who's the robin" with no
particular context and they pick arbitrarily
3. teach both sides of the swing and let them choose roles based on
which swing feels more comfortable
But it feels clunky and awkward every time.
I'm curious if others have similar experiences, or things they do in their
lessons that feel effective at getting people into one role (for now) with
a minimum of confusion. Hit me with your wisdom!
*Note: this is NOT an invitation to debate whether contra roles should be
gendered, or which set of role terms we should use, or whether we should
use role terms or positional calling. If you must, please make a separate
thread so I can mute it. If such discussion crops up in this thread, I'd
ask people not to respond, or to take responses to a separate thread.
Thanks.*
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
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1:19 p.m.
I do #3 and have then try both sides with two people and then choose a role for the rest
of the lesson
On Nov 21, 2022, at 11:55 AM, Maia McCormick via
Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hey folks,
Calling the occasional gig again after uh, everything, and I'm finally inspired to
iron out a bit of my beginners' lesson that I've always just fudged in the past:
when calling gender-neutral, how do you have the beginners pick roles?
My spiel is generally, "we have these two roles, they're almost entirely the
same with some small differences, pick one and stick with it for a few dances just to
start and then you can try the other if you want, the most important thing is knowing
which role you are for a given dance."
In my lesson, I alternately:
say "whoever's standing on the right of this couple right now, that's the
robin" and then teach the swing in those roles
tell folks "decide who's the lark and who's the robin" with no
particular context and they pick arbitrarily
teach both sides of the swing and let them choose roles based on which swing feels more
comfortable
But it feels clunky and awkward every time.
I'm curious if others have similar experiences, or things they do in their lessons
that feel effective at getting people into one role (for now) with a minimum of confusion.
Hit me with your wisdom!
Note: this is NOT an invitation to debate whether contra roles should be gendered, or
which set of role terms we should use, or whether we should use role terms or positional
calling. If you must, please make a separate thread so I can mute it. If such discussion
crops up in this thread, I'd ask people not to respond, or to take responses to a
separate thread. Thanks.
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
3:01 p.m.
I appreciate the care that goes into option #3, and also really like
Becky's comment about some of the asymmetries that occur on the dancefloor
as a result of the culture (i.e., that robins may encounter more twirling
than larks). Another piece of cultural asymmetry I've encountered is that,
in some communities, dancers are used to the dancer in the left-hand
position carrying more of the weight in the swing — as a small person with
bad joints, I find it more difficult to dance the left-hand role where this
is a factor. Depending on how much time you have, reflecting on these
differences in the roles' physicality seems like a kind and useful addition.
In practice, I think the thing I've done most often more closely resembles
your #1. As we break out of a circle, couples are given roles based
entirely on where they ended up.
On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 2:19 PM Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I do #3 and have then try both sides with two people
and then choose a
role for the rest of the lesson
On Nov 21, 2022, at 11:55 AM, Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hey folks,
Calling the occasional gig again after uh, everything, and I'm finally
inspired to iron out a bit of my beginners' lesson that I've always just
fudged in the past: *when calling gender-neutral, how do you have the
beginners pick roles?*
My spiel is generally, "we have these two roles, they're almost entirely
the same with some small differences, pick one and stick with it for a few
dances just to start and then you can try the other if you want, the most
important thing is knowing which role you are for a given dance."
In my lesson, I alternately:
1. say "whoever's standing on the right of this couple right now,
that's the robin" and then teach the swing in those roles
2. tell folks "decide who's the lark and who's the robin" with no
particular context and they pick arbitrarily
3. teach both sides of the swing and let them choose roles based on
which swing feels more comfortable
But it feels clunky and awkward every time.
I'm curious if others have similar experiences, or things they do in their
lessons that feel effective at getting people into one role (for now) with
a minimum of confusion. Hit me with your wisdom!
*Note: this is NOT an invitation to debate whether contra roles should be
gendered, or which set of role terms we should use, or whether we should
use role terms or positional calling. If you must, please make a separate
thread so I can mute it. If such discussion crops up in this thread, I'd
ask people not to respond, or to take responses to a separate thread.
Thanks.*
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194
_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
3:49 p.m.
Since, during the average contra evening, you will spend approximately 30 minutes
swinging, surely it would be better to teach the dancers how to swing properly.
Apart from the slight variation in the position of one of your arms the swing should be
symmetrical. And nobody should be giving any of their weight to the other person. (I hate
the term “give weight” – it is grossly misunderstood.)
I am quite happy to provide a gentle counterbalance to your mass, but please look after
your own weight!
When teaching the buzz-step I always get the dancers to do it individually so that they
learn to keep their own balance. Too many dancers thinking that throwing their weight in
some random direction will make the swing go faster – it won’t – only your feet can make
the swing go faster.
Lots more at http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html
:-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
From: Angela DeCarlis via Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Sent: 21 November 2022 21:02
To: Alexandra Deis-Lauby <adeislauby(a)gmail.com>
Cc: Shared Weight Callers' Listserv <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Subject: [Callers] Re: How to have the beginners choose roles
I appreciate the care that goes into option #3, and also really like Becky's comment
about some of the asymmetries that occur on the dancefloor as a result of the culture
(i.e., that robins may encounter more twirling than larks). Another piece of cultural
asymmetry I've encountered is that, in some communities, dancers are used to the
dancer in the left-hand position carrying more of the weight in the swing — as a small
person with bad joints, I find it more difficult to dance the left-hand role where this is
a factor. Depending on how much time you have, reflecting on these differences in the
roles' physicality seems like a kind and useful addition.
5:20 p.m.
So at our dances (which always welcome a lot of beginners, maybe 40 percent or more), we
have the tags at the front entry table and as people come in and pay, they are asked to
choose a tag.
Our volunteers help ensure that roughly equal numbers of each are chosen, and once we
start the beginner intro session we just switch a few folks if needed to get the numbers
perfectly even
If two people come together, we suggest they each take opposite tags as it will ensure
they get a chance to dance together
We are just very matter of fact about the fact that it doesn't matter which one you
choose, and it seems to work very well for us.
I am also working on adapting any figure that traditionally relied on a gendered height
difference, to make it work in a non-gendered setting.
(so for example, I might still teach a Cali twirl if it's the partners doing it
because they can decide who steps under, but if its neighbours switching places I would
use some other sort of tug-and/or-twirl-past-each-other technique, that doesn't
involve an under-over dynamic...)
Kat k in Halifax NS
22 Nov
22 Nov
12:31 a.m.
I do #3, in a roundabout way. They try both sides in two different
swing-teaching dances that Sara and I wrote together. Then, I tell them
they can pick either side and it might be good to do the first several
dances from the same side, but it's good to know both, in case the options
are to switch or sit out. I use recorded music for the teaching dances if
there is no band or they're not ready. We use elastic wrist bands
(non-frilly ponytail bands from Target) worn on the outside wrist to
identify roles. This would not be necessary in a dance with fewer newbies
and we're thinking of giving them up.
Full workshop description below, but most will want to skip.
--jh--
Long version, including how we identify the other dancers' roles:
I'm calling at a university club that just started this year (
contraknights.org). All of my campus dancers were new to contra at the
start of the semester, so there was no left-right bias at all. This made a
number of things much easier, as learning is easier than relearning.
However, while experienced dancers can mix up traditional gender roles and
assume that the person coming to them is the right person to do the next
move with, we found ourselves messing up often enough that this wasn't
always the case. The crutch of gender is really helpful in dance repair,
so we wanted to make the roles clear, but also allow people to switch at
will.
Our solution is elastic wristbands, actually large hair bands from Target
(not the frilly kind). These are worn on the outside wrist, and people can
see your role at a glance. It also helps people remember which role
they're dancing (yes, they forget).
I start my workshop with Chris Page's Accretion Reel, which I run about 6-8
cycles to loosen the mood, get people interacting and dancing, and show how
ephemeral partners are. I emphasize partner ephemerality and appropriate
behavior in the walkthrough, and tell them we dance with a different
partner every dance. I have them elbow swing or do two hands around or
play pattycake for this dance, unless it's two experienced dancers who know
how to swing.
At the end of that, some volunteers distribute the bands. I teach the
ballroom position, they put the bands on the held hands, and I teach the
swing footwork. We put on some not-fast music and dance Swing without
Progress Circle (below). After it ends, I let them know that it may take a
few evenings of dance to develop a really good swing and that they can ask
for pointers from dancers whose swings they like, or from me in the break.
(We often do a swinging workshop in the break, too.)
I then have them swap positions and put the band on the other arm. We
practice opening up and closing, and I say it's important to end the swing
facing the other dancers unless instructed to face another way. They
practice swinging on this side a little, I talk briefly about progression,
and then we dance Swing with Progress Circle. I tell them that they can
choose a side and it might be best to keep that side for a few dances until
they get the hang of it, but that they might dance both sides before the
end of the night to make sure they can switch if the only option is to
switch or sit out.
The two swing-teaching circles feature just 8-count moves, so they don't
get too dizzy right off. I'm calling all the way through, so I can turn
one or more moves into 16 counts if that helps, and it often does. At the
end of all this, they have six solid contra moves; know partner, neighbor,
and progression; and have danced three dances with 20+ partners. All this
takes at most 30 minutes, half of it dancing, so they're not bored (well,
the newbies aren't, anyway). We can go into an easy contra as the main
dance begins.
Swing without Progress Circle
Joe Harrington and Sara Sullivan
Original
Intro
Circle, 32 beats, for teaching swing and open up, and partners and
neighbors
Non-progressing
Partners
A Forward and back 8
B
Circle left 8
C
Neighbor allemande right 8
D
Partner swing 8
Swing with Progress Circle
Joe Harrington and Sara Sullivan
Original
Intro
Circle, 32 beats, for teaching swing and open up, partners and neighbors,
and progression
Single Progression
Partners
A
Forward and back 8
B
Circle left 8
C
Neighbor do-si-do 8
D
New partner swing 8
On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 6:20 PM Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
So at our dances (which always welcome a lot of
beginners, maybe 40
percent or more), we have the tags at the front entry table and as people
come in and pay, they are asked to choose a tag.
Our volunteers help ensure that roughly equal numbers of each are chosen,
and once we start the beginner intro session we just switch a few folks if
needed to get the numbers perfectly even
If two people come together, we suggest they each take opposite tags as it
will ensure they get a chance to dance together
We are just very matter of fact about the fact that it doesn't matter
which one you choose, and it seems to work very well for us.
I am also working on adapting any figure that traditionally relied on a
gendered height difference, to make it work in a non-gendered setting.
(so for example, I might still teach a Cali twirl if it's the partners
doing it because they can decide who steps under, but if its neighbours
switching places I would use some other sort of
tug-and/or-twirl-past-each-other technique, that doesn't involve an
under-over dynamic...)
Kat k in Halifax NS
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
23 Nov
23 Nov
8:30 a.m.
"during the average contra evening, you will spend approximately 30 minutes
swinging"
Tangent: I thought "that can't be right" but a little playing with numbers
and I think it is. My back of the envelope: guess ~12 dances, each ~17
times through, with ~20 beats of swinging per dance. That's 4k beats of
swinging, which at 118bpm is 35min. Another way to think of it is that in
a 3hr evening half of your time is dancing and a third of that is swinging.
Jeff
On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 4:49 PM John Sweeney via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Since, during the average contra evening, you will
spend approximately 30
minutes swinging, surely it would be better to teach the dancers how to
swing properly.
Apart from the slight variation in the position of one of your arms the
swing should be symmetrical. And nobody should be giving any of their
weight to the other person. (I hate the term “give weight” – it is grossly
misunderstood.)
I am quite happy to provide a gentle counterbalance to your mass, but
please look after your own weight!
When teaching the buzz-step I always get the dancers to do it individually
so that they learn to keep their own balance. Too many dancers thinking
that throwing their weight in some random direction will make the swing go
faster – it won’t – only your feet can make the swing go faster.
Lots more at http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html
:-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802
940 574
http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music
Ceilidhs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
*From:* Angela DeCarlis via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
*Sent:* 21 November 2022 21:02
*To:* Alexandra Deis-Lauby <adeislauby(a)gmail.com>
*Cc:* Shared Weight Callers' Listserv <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
*Subject:* [Callers] Re: How to have the beginners choose roles
I appreciate the care that goes into option #3, and also really like
Becky's comment about some of the asymmetries that occur on the dancefloor
as a result of the culture (i.e., that robins may encounter more twirling
than larks). Another piece of cultural asymmetry I've encountered is that,
in some communities, dancers are used to the dancer in the left-hand
position carrying more of the weight in the swing — as a small person with
bad joints, I find it more difficult to dance the left-hand role where this
is a factor. Depending on how much time you have, reflecting on these
differences in the roles' physicality seems like a kind and useful addition.
_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
8:47 a.m.
Hi Jeff,
Yes, it’s true! Approximately 30 minutes of swinging per evening was the
conclusion on this forum after many discussions, many years ago.
That’s why I ALWAYS spend time teaching first-timers how to swing (I have
seen some atrocious teaching by dancers who think they know how to do it!).
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
From: Jeff Kaufman <jeff(a)alum.swarthmore.edu>
Sent: 23 November 2022 14:31
To: John Sweeney <john(a)modernjive.com>
Cc: Shared Weight Callers' Listserv <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] Re: How to have the beginners choose roles
"during the average contra evening, you will spend approximately 30 minutes
swinging"
Tangent: I thought "that can't be right" but a little playing with numbers
and I think it is. My back of the envelope: guess ~12 dances, each ~17 times through,
with ~20 beats of swinging per dance. That's 4k beats of swinging, which at 118bpm is
35min. Another way to think of it is that in a 3hr evening half of your time is dancing
and a third of that is swinging.
Jeff
On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 4:49 PM John Sweeney via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> > wrote:
Since, during the average contra evening, you will spend approximately 30 minutes
swinging, surely it would be better to teach the dancers how to swing properly.
Apart from the slight variation in the position of one of your arms the swing should be
symmetrical. And nobody should be giving any of their weight to the other person. (I hate
the term “give weight” – it is grossly misunderstood.)
I am quite happy to provide a gentle counterbalance to your mass, but please look after
your own weight!
When teaching the buzz-step I always get the dancers to do it individually so that they
learn to keep their own balance. Too many dancers thinking that throwing their weight in
some random direction will make the swing go faster – it won’t – only your feet can make
the swing go faster.
Lots more at http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html
:-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com <mailto:john@modernjive.com>
01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
From: Angela DeCarlis via Contra Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >
Sent: 21 November 2022 21:02
To: Alexandra Deis-Lauby <adeislauby(a)gmail.com <mailto:adeislauby@gmail.com>
>
Cc: Shared Weight Callers' Listserv <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net> >
Subject: [Callers] Re: How to have the beginners choose roles
I appreciate the care that goes into option #3, and also really like Becky's comment
about some of the asymmetries that occur on the dancefloor as a result of the culture
(i.e., that robins may encounter more twirling than larks). Another piece of cultural
asymmetry I've encountered is that, in some communities, dancers are used to the
dancer in the left-hand position carrying more of the weight in the swing — as a small
person with bad joints, I find it more difficult to dance the left-hand role where this is
a factor. Depending on how much time you have, reflecting on these differences in the
roles' physicality seems like a kind and useful addition.
_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
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days old
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
9 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
Alexandra Deis-Lauby -
Angela DeCarlis -
Becky Liddle -
Jeff Kaufman -
Joe Harrington -
John Sweeney -
Julian Blechner -
Katherine Kitching -
Maia McCormick