Colin, Thanks to Yoyo for setting me straight, it looks like "treat P as N" does work on The Hobbit. I stand corrected. Cheers, Ken Panton Colin Hume via Callers <https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=callers@lists.sharedweight.net&q=from:%22Colin+Hume+via+Callers%22> Thu, 05 Apr 2018 02:42:50 -0700 <https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=callers@lists.sharedweight.net&q=date:20180405> I'm not sure that dancing with ghosts is the best way to deal with end-effects - I prefer "treat your partner as a neighbour". I have a whole section of notes on End-effects athttps://colinhume.com/dtendeffects.htm Colin Hume