2 Jul
2013
2 Jul
'13
4:10 a.m.
I agree fully with Erik Hoffman. I can't fathom the no thumb allemande. How the heck
do you get any connection with it? Two flat surfaces and only friction - you might as well
just walk around the other person, it's worse than a noodle arm. The way most people
do get connection is to bend the wrist to provide some contact for shared weight - and
that hurts my wrist horribly. So if someone gives me a no thumb allemande, I comply,
desperately trying not to have my wrist bent, and if it is someone who doesn't bend
the wrist, then there is no connection, no "shared weight" and no chance if
it's a 1 1/2 allemande to get around in time. Erik has always taught the allemande
hold as being a "hook", with the curled fingers providing the connection, and I
have stolen that description from him and use it myself. The thumb is along for the ride
but should not do any squeezing or gripping, in fact, it can even lie flat next to the
curled fingers and not intersect the other thumb, as he mentions in describing the star
hold. Connection without thumb pain. Thanks, Erik.
Martha
On Jul 1, 2013, at 9:00 AM, callers-request(a)sharedweight.net wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: First-time Contra Dancers and similar figures (Read Weaver)
2. Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance (Greg McKenzie)
3. Re: Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance (JohnFreem(a)aol.com)
4. Re: Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance (barb kirchner)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 20:48:26 -0400
From: Read Weaver <rweaver(a)igc.org>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] First-time Contra Dancers and similar figures
Message-ID: <9D058E28-3D5B-46C1-ABA3-F5EE755519E7(a)igc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Yeah, I don't understand the problem with no thumbs--I go out of my way to teach the
no-thumb hold to beginners, mostly to avoid twisted thumbs from the person who doesn't
let go in time. Is there some thought that it leads to the bent-wrist hold?
On Jun 26, 2013, at 9:37 PM, Jacob Bloom wrote:
As for the no-thumb allemande: Years ago, I
started having a problem with
my left thumb aching for days after a dance, from the allemande lefts.
This started almost 30 years ago, so I can't blame that problem on
advancing age. As far as I'm concerned, doing an allemande without locking
thumbs is an improvement which has been made necessary by the modern
tendency to do an allemande all the way around in four beats instead of six
or eight. I'm always delighted when I run into another dancer who gives me
a no-thumb allemande. Anything that prevents injury is a good thing.
Jacob Bloom
jandnbloom(a)gmail.com
On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 12:00 PM, <callers-request(a)sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 00:03:40 -0700
> From: Erik Hoffman <erik(a)erikhoffman.com>
> To: jean francis <catherineaura(a)yahoo.com>om>, Caller's discussion list
> <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject:
>
> Re: [Callers] First-time Contra Dancers and similar figures
>
> [1] An aside: many people call this the "wrist grip" form. I encourage
> us all to remove the word "grip" from out teaching lexicon, as gripping
> has led to griping, and that (IMHO) horrid no-thumb allemande... The
> connection is through hooks and surfaces to lean on, not through
> gripping. And, although I don't like the no thumb allemande, when do I
> teach this form of star, I encourage all five fingers, thumb included,
> going over the top of the wrist in front - no grip.
>
> erik hoffman
> ~oakland, ca
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 07:55:18 -0700
From: Greg McKenzie <grekenzie(a)gmail.com>
To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance
Message-ID:
<CAFqkWLt0qEFdYC4FFthx-K+8wi6yAGE=3-cKEGpBdOee5k5pWg(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I just listened to "RadioLab" on NPR
http://www.radiolab.org/
The current show on "Inner Voices" is fascinating and has information about
how the expectations of teachers (or callers) can affect performance. The
impacts of simple word changes in how a task is described can make a
dramatic difference in how people perform that task. The show talks about
research on test performance as well as a study involving the performance
of psychomotor skills (golf).
This research dramatizes how small word choices and attitudes (or framings)
by callers could change the competence of many people in the room enough to
make the caller's job much easier or more difficult. Check it out.
The segment about the specific research begins at about 11 minutes and 15
seconds in. But the entire show is good.
Makes me think about every time I have said: "Now this part of the dance is
a little tricky."
- Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 11:09:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: JohnFreem(a)aol.com
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance
Message-ID: <99c29.775e271b.3f02f5a8(a)aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Great stuff, Greg!
I learned many important things from some of the great callers early in my
career. Larry Edelman taught me to teach about "places, not faces" while
teaching squares. This can also apply to contras. Ted Sanella taught me to
first tell who we were to look for, then what we were to do with them. These two
tips have proven very helpful when working with all dancers.
John B. Freeman, SFTPOCTJ
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 15:19:44 +0000
From: barb kirchner <barbkirchner(a)hotmail.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance
Message-ID: <BLU177-W7967532EE4DEE44DCFFF1DE710(a)phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
THANKS for bringing up this important teaching technique.
the way you phrase something can make ALL the difference.
instead of "this is a little tricky", i go with "this LOOKS a little bit
different, but you'll be surprised how easy it is!" or "here comes the fun
part!"
if you ACT like you KNOW they'll just be able to do it, well, that's what
they'll do.
barb
From: JohnFreem(a)aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 11:09:28 -0400
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance
Great stuff, Greg!
I learned many important things from some of the great callers early in my
career. Larry Edelman taught me to teach about "places, not faces" while
teaching squares. This can also apply to contras. Ted Sanella taught me to
first tell who we were to look for, then what we were to do with them. These two
tips have proven very helpful when working with all dancers.
John B. Freeman, SFTPOCTJ
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
End of Callers Digest, Vol 107, Issue 1
*************************************** 
2 Jul
2 Jul
5:26 a.m.
New subject: No thumb allemandes
On Mon, Jul 01, 2013, Martha Wild wrote:
I agree fully with Erik Hoffman. I can't fathom the no thumb
allemande. How the heck do you get any connection with it? Two flat
surfaces and only friction - you might as well just walk around the
other person, it's worse than a noodle arm. The way most people do get
connection is to bend the wrist to provide some contact for shared
weight - and that hurts my wrist horribly. So if someone gives me
a no thumb allemande, I comply, desperately trying not to have my
wrist bent, and if it is someone who doesn't bend the wrist, then
there is no connection, no "shared weight" and no chance if it's a
1 1/2 allemande to get around in time. Erik has always taught the
allemande hold as being a "hook", with the curled fingers providing
the connection, and I have stolen that description from him and use
it myself. The thumb is along for the ride but should not do any
squeezing or gripping, in fact, it can even lie flat next to the
curled fingers and not intersect the other thumb, as he mentions in
describing the star hold. Connection without thumb pain. Thanks, Erik.
It sounds like people are using "no thumbs allemande" to describe two
different holds. When I use the term, I'm referring to what you're
calling a hook, not the wrist grip. But all too often, people try to pry
my thumb up for an interleaved thumb grip, and that's what I'm decrying
when I call for "no thumbs". (It makes no sense to me to refer to the
wrist grip as "no thumbs" because there's no thumb anywhere near to use.)
The thumb grip is particularly pernicious because standard contra
practice is to use the same hold for allemande and wave (unlike MWSD,
which uses a forearm grip for allemande), and a trapped thumb in a wave
is IMO extremely dangerous when you're doing the common spin flourish
for sashay (for that matter, I often do a spin flourish from allemande,
spinning to my partner for a swing, but that runs less risk of jammed
thumbs).
Side note: that last bit suggest a good reason for men mostly doing left
allemande (at least before a swing), because that makes it easier to
scoop the right hand behind your partner's back (although it does mean
changing turn direction -- I still think it's a net win).
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
8:48 a.m.
New subject: No thumb allemandes
I think different things must work for different people and, as in so many
things, the key is to pay attention to the person we're dancing with at any
moment. Although it's not generally what I offer (because I've heard so many
people complain about it), I love the flat-hand allemande. And in my
experience it is very different from just walking around the person. I don't
have any problem keeping my wrist and thumbs safe during that move, and I
experience it as an elegant sharing of weight - not pulling on each other
but oh so perfectly balancing against each other's weight to move around
that center point. Obviously, from this discussion and many others, that's
not how everyone experiences it, but just thought I'd chime in my experience
to the mix.
-cynthia
-----Original Message-----
From: callers-bounces(a)sharedweight.net
[mailto:callers-bounces@sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Martha Wild
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 12:10 AM
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] No thumb allemandes
I agree fully with Erik Hoffman. I can't fathom the no thumb allemande. How
the heck do you get any connection with it? Two flat surfaces and only
friction - you might as well just walk around the other person, it's worse
than a noodle arm. The way most people do get connection is to bend the
wrist to provide some contact for shared weight - and that hurts my wrist
horribly. So if someone gives me a no thumb allemande, I comply, desperately
trying not to have my wrist bent, and if it is someone who doesn't bend the
wrist, then there is no connection, no "shared weight" and no chance if
it's
a 1 1/2 allemande to get around in time. Erik has always taught the
allemande hold as being a "hook", with the curled fingers providing the
connection, and I have stolen that description from him and use it myself.
The thumb is along for the ride but should not do any squeezing or gripping,
in fact, it can even lie flat next to the curled fingers and not intersect
the other thumb, as he
mentions in describing the star hold. Connection without thumb pain.
Thanks, Erik.
Martha
On Jul 1, 2013, at 9:00 AM, callers-request(a)sharedweight.net wrote:
about
_______________________________________________
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or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Callers digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: First-time Contra Dancers and similar figures (Read Weaver)
2. Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance (Greg McKenzie)
3. Re: Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance (JohnFreem(a)aol.com)
4. Re: Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance (barb kirchner)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 20:48:26 -0400
From: Read Weaver <rweaver(a)igc.org>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] First-time Contra Dancers and similar figures
Message-ID: <9D058E28-3D5B-46C1-ABA3-F5EE755519E7(a)igc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Yeah, I don't understand the problem with no thumbs--I go out of my way to
teach the no-thumb hold to beginners, mostly to avoid twisted thumbs from
the person who doesn't let go in time. Is there some thought that it leads
to the bent-wrist hold?
On Jun 26, 2013, at 9:37 PM, Jacob Bloom wrote:
> As for the no-thumb allemande: Years ago, I started having a problem with
> my left thumb aching for days after a dance, from the allemande lefts.
> This started almost 30 years ago, so I can't blame that problem on
> advancing age. As far as I'm concerned, doing an allemande without
locking
> thumbs is an improvement which has been made
necessary by the modern
> tendency to do an allemande all the way around in four beats instead of
six
> or eight. I'm always delighted when I run
into another dancer who gives
me
> a no-thumb allemande. Anything that prevents
injury is a good thing.
>
> Jacob Bloom
> jandnbloom(a)gmail.com
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 12:00 PM, <callers-request(a)sharedweight.net>
wrote:
>
> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 00:03:40 -0700
> From: Erik Hoffman <erik(a)erikhoffman.com>
> To: jean francis <catherineaura(a)yahoo.com>om>, Caller's discussion list
> <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject:
>
> Re: [Callers] First-time Contra Dancers and similar figures
>
> [1] An aside: many people call this the "wrist grip" form. I encourage
> us all to remove the word "grip" from out teaching lexicon, as gripping
> has led to griping, and that (IMHO) horrid no-thumb allemande... The
> connection is through hooks and surfaces to lean on, not through
> gripping. And, although I don't like the no thumb allemande, when do I
> teach this form of star, I encourage all five fingers, thumb included,
> going over the top of the wrist in front - no grip.
>
> erik hoffman
> ~oakland, ca
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 07:55:18 -0700
From: Greg McKenzie <grekenzie(a)gmail.com>
To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance
Message-ID:
<CAFqkWLt0qEFdYC4FFthx-K+8wi6yAGE=3-cKEGpBdOee5k5pWg(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I just listened to "RadioLab" on NPR
http://www.radiolab.org/
The current show on "Inner Voices" is fascinating and has information
how the expectations of teachers (or callers) can
affect performance. The
impacts of simple word changes in how a task is described can make a
dramatic difference in how people perform that task. The show talks about
research on test performance as well as a study involving the performance
of psychomotor skills (golf).
This research dramatizes how small word choices and attitudes (or
framings)
by callers could change the competence of many people
in the room enough
to
make the caller's job much easier or more
difficult. Check it out.
The segment about the specific research begins at about 11 minutes and 15
seconds in. But the entire show is good.
Makes me think about every time I have said: "Now this part of the dance
is
a little tricky."
- Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 11:09:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: JohnFreem(a)aol.com
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance
Message-ID: <99c29.775e271b.3f02f5a8(a)aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Great stuff, Greg!
I learned many important things from some of the great callers early in my
career. Larry Edelman taught me to teach about
"places, not faces" while
teaching squares. This can also apply to contras. Ted Sanella taught me to
first tell who we were to look for, then what we were
to do with them.
These two
tips have proven very helpful when working with all
dancers.
John B. Freeman, SFTPOCTJ
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 15:19:44 +0000
From: barb kirchner <barbkirchner(a)hotmail.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance
Message-ID: <BLU177-W7967532EE4DEE44DCFFF1DE710(a)phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
THANKS for bringing up this important teaching technique.
the way you phrase something can make ALL the difference.
instead of "this is a little tricky", i go with "this LOOKS a little bit
different, but you'll be surprised how easy it is!" or "here comes
the fun
part!"
if you ACT like you KNOW they'll just be able to do it, well, that's what
they'll do.
barb
> From: JohnFreem(a)aol.com
> Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 11:09:28 -0400
> To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance
>
> Great stuff, Greg!
>
> I learned many important things from some of the great callers early in
my
> career. Larry Edelman taught me to teach about
"places, not faces" while
> teaching squares. This can also apply to contras. Ted Sanella taught me
to
> first tell who we were to look for, then what we were
to do with them.
These two
tips have
proven very helpful when working with all dancers.
John B. Freeman, SFTPOCTJ
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
End of Callers Digest, Vol 107, Issue 1
***************************************
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contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
2 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
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Aahz Maruch -
Cynthia Phinney -
Martha Wild