25 Jan
2008
25 Jan
'08
2:09 a.m.
Friends,
It seems that having folks who really dislike swinging together at a
community dance is bad news...with, or without shadow swings. I know
it happens, but callers can work to create a more gracious and
generous atmosphere. It would feel odd to plan an evening program
while considering the needs of people who wish to avoid contact at a
social dance.
Chris, I wonder; how would you feel about a dance with a shadow
swing, and a neighbor swing, but with NO partner swing? I suspect
that many of us call a dance or two each night with no partner
swing. Would you protest more if there were one partner-swing-free
dance with a shadow swing? (And would that be "rational hypocrisy?)
Also, how many dances a night do you call that have no partner swing?
Just wondering,
Greg
*********
At 02:35 PM 1/24/2008, Chris wrote:
I currently don't have any dances with shadow
swings in my
repertoire, by choice.
Part of that is to avoid the situation where you're forcing two
people to swing together who Really Don't Want To Swing
Over and Over. And they'll let you know it, whether it's a
breakup, or one person's someone that they don't want to
dance with. (In my first community I went to, there was
one person like this. It would drive which lines people went
into, people would refuse sometimes to neighbor swing
with said person, and it really corrupted the whole partner-
asking dynamic of the dance. So I'm shaped by an extreme.)
There's the secondary reason that it's not as interesting as
it's the same person over and over and over. And you've
already got your partner over and over and over, with the
partner swing I need to pander to. So that cuts out still more
neighbor interaction. It's why I strongly prefer neighbor grand
right and lefts to shadow grand right and lefts, for instance.
A shadow can be a convenient marker to create the effect
of a lose-and-find partner sequence, so they do have their
uses.
Yet I call a dance with a shadow swing about one night
of every three. They're the four-face-fours where you swing
your corner. So I fully admit to irrational hypocrisy.
-Chris Page
San Diego
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28 Jan
28 Jan
1:14 p.m.
New subject: Shadow swings and Irrational Hypocrisy
I occasionally call dances with a shadow swing, but I would NEVER call a
dance with no partner swing. Many times in my 35 years of dancing, I have
had an evening where I FINALLY got to dance with some special partner, only
to have the disappointment of doing a dance with no partner swing. What a
letdown!
Any caller in my area who calls dances without partner swings is either
going to hear about it from one or more dancers, or at least be grumbled
about behind their backs. It's probably not a big deal in a roomful of
beginners, but I think that most experienced dancers feel cheated if they
don't get to swing their partner.
In fact, there has been much discussion in our dance community (really, all
over the Southeast) as to whether "unequal" dances (where only the 1's
swing) are "acceptable," given that there are so many great "equal"
dances
available. Of course, this would knock out a whole bunch of the old,
traditional contras...
Have I opened a huge can of worms here?
~Barbara
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg McKenzie" <gregmck(a)earthlink.net>
To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 2:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Shadow swings and Irrational Hypocrisy
Friends,
It seems that having folks who really dislike swinging together at a
community dance is bad news...with, or without shadow swings. I know
it happens, but callers can work to create a more gracious and
generous atmosphere. It would feel odd to plan an evening program
while considering the needs of people who wish to avoid contact at a
social dance.
Chris, I wonder; how would you feel about a dance with a shadow
swing, and a neighbor swing, but with NO partner swing? I suspect
that many of us call a dance or two each night with no partner
swing. Would you protest more if there were one partner-swing-free
dance with a shadow swing? (And would that be "rational hypocrisy?)
Also, how many dances a night do you call that have no partner swing?
Just wondering,
Greg
*********
At 02:35 PM 1/24/2008, Chris wrote:
I currently don't have any dances with shadow
swings in my
repertoire, by choice.
Part of that is to avoid the situation where you're forcing two
people to swing together who Really Don't Want To Swing
Over and Over. And they'll let you know it, whether it's a
breakup, or one person's someone that they don't want to
dance with. (In my first community I went to, there was
one person like this. It would drive which lines people went
into, people would refuse sometimes to neighbor swing
with said person, and it really corrupted the whole partner-
asking dynamic of the dance. So I'm shaped by an extreme.)
There's the secondary reason that it's not as interesting as
it's the same person over and over and over. And you've
already got your partner over and over and over, with the
partner swing I need to pander to. So that cuts out still more
neighbor interaction. It's why I strongly prefer neighbor grand
right and lefts to shadow grand right and lefts, for instance.
A shadow can be a convenient marker to create the effect
of a lose-and-find partner sequence, so they do have their
uses.
Yet I call a dance with a shadow swing about one night
of every three. They're the four-face-fours where you swing
your corner. So I fully admit to irrational hypocrisy.
-Chris Page
San Diego
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http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
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Callers mailing list
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http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers 
1:29 p.m.
New subject: Shadow swings and Irrational Hypocrisy
I've got to say that while I respect the traditional dances and don't mind
the occasional actives-preferential dance (as long as the contra lines
aren't too long to begin with!), I really like the newer dances that I've
seen recently where ones and twos alternate being active. I don't know the
names of these dances (maybe someone can help me out?), but I know there's
at least one where the ones and twos trade off being the couple who does
contra corners and then swings in the middle, and I'm a big fan of that.
Contra corners into a swing in the middle is one of my favorite moves if the
set is working together well.
I definitely agree with Barbara, though, that it's really disappointing to
not have a partner swing at all. And I think there's a responsibility as a
caller to make sure that if you do call a dance where only the ones swing,
the lines are short enough and the dance runs long enough that everyone gets
to be a one for a decent amount of time!
- Koren
On 1/28/08, Barbara Groh <barbaragroh(a)bellsouth.net> wrote:
I occasionally call dances with a shadow swing, but I would NEVER call a
dance with no partner swing. Many times in my 35 years of dancing, I have
had an evening where I FINALLY got to dance with some special partner,
only
to have the disappointment of doing a dance with no partner swing. What a
letdown!
Any caller in my area who calls dances without partner swings is either
going to hear about it from one or more dancers, or at least be grumbled
about behind their backs. It's probably not a big deal in a roomful of
beginners, but I think that most experienced dancers feel cheated if they
don't get to swing their partner.
In fact, there has been much discussion in our dance community (really,
all
over the Southeast) as to whether "unequal" dances (where only the 1's
swing) are "acceptable," given that there are so many great "equal"
dances
available. Of course, this would knock out a whole bunch of the old,
traditional contras...
Have I opened a huge can of worms here?
~Barbara
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg McKenzie" <gregmck(a)earthlink.net>
To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 2:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Shadow swings and Irrational Hypocrisy
Friends,
It seems that having folks who really dislike swinging together at a
community dance is bad news...with, or without shadow swings. I know
it happens, but callers can work to create a more gracious and
generous atmosphere. It would feel odd to plan an evening program
while considering the needs of people who wish to avoid contact at a
social dance.
Chris, I wonder; how would you feel about a dance with a shadow
swing, and a neighbor swing, but with NO partner swing? I suspect
that many of us call a dance or two each night with no partner
swing. Would you protest more if there were one partner-swing-free
dance with a shadow swing? (And would that be "rational hypocrisy?)
Also, how many dances a night do you call that have no partner swing?
Just wondering,
Greg
*********
At 02:35 PM 1/24/2008, Chris wrote:
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I currently don't have any dances with shadow
swings in my
repertoire, by choice.
Part of that is to avoid the situation where you're forcing two
people to swing together who Really Don't Want To Swing
Over and Over. And they'll let you know it, whether it's a
breakup, or one person's someone that they don't want to
dance with. (In my first community I went to, there was
one person like this. It would drive which lines people went
into, people would refuse sometimes to neighbor swing
with said person, and it really corrupted the whole partner-
asking dynamic of the dance. So I'm shaped by an extreme.)
There's the secondary reason that it's not as interesting as
it's the same person over and over and over. And you've
already got your partner over and over and over, with the
partner swing I need to pander to. So that cuts out still more
neighbor interaction. It's why I strongly prefer neighbor grand
right and lefts to shadow grand right and lefts, for instance.
A shadow can be a convenient marker to create the effect
of a lose-and-find partner sequence, so they do have their
uses.
Yet I call a dance with a shadow swing about one night
of every three. They're the four-face-fours where you swing
your corner. So I fully admit to irrational hypocrisy.
-Chris Page
San Diego
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers 
1:32 p.m.
New subject: Shadow swings and Irrational Hypocrisy
I am really not a fan of what you call "unequal" dances. I always feel like
I should have brought a pillow. This is why I dislike one of the Great
Classics -- Chorus Jig.
That said, in many cases it's possible to simply alternative the active role
between the 1s and 2s, and balance the dance better. Some callers do this.
(I don't think there's a good way to do it with Chorus Jig, though.)
3:01 p.m.
New subject: Shadow swings and Irrational Hypocrisy
That said, in many cases it's possible to simply
alternative the active role> between the 1s and 2s, and balance the dance better. Some
callers do this.> (I don't think there's a good way to do it with Chorus Jig,
though.)
Yes there is - when sets are long enough, I've been using this version
for a few years;
1A1. 1's down the outside, turn alone and return
1A2. 1's down the center, turn alone, return and cast off
1B1. 1's turn contra corners
1B2. 1's balance, swing
2A1. 2's up the outside, turn alone and return
2A2. 2's up the center, turn alone, return and cast off
2B1. 2's turn contra corners
2B2. 2's balance, swing
As we all know, it has been customary for the inactives to cheat and swing during the A1.
When the actives are done with B2 in this version, they can start cheating by simply keep
on swinging - they're already there. Then after about a 28 beat swing they'll
appreciate being inactive for a while.
On the subject of shadow swings, the best dance I know of with one is;
Ten Strings Attached Improper, Jim Saxe/Charlie Fenton
A1. Neighbor balance, swing
A2. Gents allemande L 1 1/2 - give R to partner to form wave/4
Balance, walk forward
B1. Shadow swing, partner swing
B2. Partner promenade across, ladies chain
Unlike swing-swing with different neighbors, the roll from shadow to partner can get
better with repetition as all know who they are going to. Another B2 here that gives some
needed partner interaction is circle L 3/4, balance, California twirl.
I call shadow swing once in a while, and agree that they are best reserved for experienced
audiences and dance camps. I have yet to write a dance with one in it, partly due to
their limited use and partly because it isn't easy to find sequences like Ten Strings
Attached that have a shadow swing and enough neighbor and partner action.
Bob
_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
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3:06 p.m.
New subject: Shadow swings and Irrational Hypocrisy
That's the obvious way to alternate Chorus Jig. It exacerbates a problem
that already exists in the dance -- if the set gets too close to the bottom
of the hall, then the 1s get bunched up near the bottom. Since most sets
align at the top of the hall, you now have that problem all the time in the
opposite direction.
On 1/28/08, Bob Isaacs <isaacsbob(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
That said, in many cases it's possible to
simply alternative the active
role> between the 1s and 2s, and balance the dance
better. Some callers do
this.> (I don't think there's a good way to do it with Chorus Jig, though.)
Yes there is - when sets are long enough, I've been using this version for
a few years;
1A1. 1's down the outside, turn alone and return
1A2. 1's down the center, turn alone, return and cast off
1B1. 1's turn contra corners
1B2. 1's balance, swing
2A1. 2's up the outside, turn alone and return
2A2. 2's up the center, turn alone, return and cast off
2B1. 2's turn contra corners
2B2. 2's balance, swing
As we all know, it has been customary for the inactives to cheat and swing
during the A1. When the actives are done with B2 in this version, they can
start cheating by simply keep on swinging - they're already there. Then
after about a 28 beat swing they'll appreciate being inactive for a while.
On the subject of shadow swings, the best dance I know of with one is;
Ten Strings Attached Improper, Jim Saxe/Charlie Fenton
A1. Neighbor balance, swing
A2. Gents allemande L 1 1/2 - give R to partner to form wave/4
Balance, walk forward
B1. Shadow swing, partner swing
B2. Partner promenade across, ladies chain
Unlike swing-swing with different neighbors, the roll from shadow to
partner can get better with repetition as all know who they are going
to. Another B2 here that gives some needed partner interaction is circle L
3/4, balance, California twirl.
I call shadow swing once in a while, and agree that they are best reserved
for experienced audiences and dance camps. I have yet to write a dance with
one in it, partly due to their limited use and partly because it isn't easy
to find sequences like Ten Strings Attached that have a shadow swing and
enough neighbor and partner action.
Bob
_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
http://biggestloser.msn.com/
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5:27 p.m.
New subject: Shadow swings and Irrational Hypocrisy
On Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 11:09:36PM -0800, Greg McKenzie wrote:
It seems that having folks who really dislike swinging together at a
community dance is bad news...with, or without shadow swings. I know
it happens, but callers can work to create a more gracious and
generous atmosphere. It would feel odd to plan an evening program
while considering the needs of people who wish to avoid contact at a
social dance.
When a regular dancer attends a contra dance they have an expectation
of a certain amount of interaction with everyone (as neighbors) and
additional interaction with people they choose (as partners). Shadow
interaction confuses this some.
The idea of people wishing to aviod contact at a social dance sounds
strange, but actually isn't at all. If a dance is a place people are
going to see friends, have fun, and meet new people, what if there's
someone you don't enjoy spending time with? It is beyond the role of
a caller or organizer to make recently broken-up couples want to spend
time together.
Jeff
8:18 p.m.
New subject: Shadow swings and Irrational Hypocrisy
Here's my take: I have BEEN one of those "oh god my ex is here and I
REALLY don't wan't to get stuck in a swing together" people, and, well, I
always figured it was MY business to keep a buffer zone, not the caller's.
Shadows are usually someone in close proximity - the next opposite gender
person down the line - and people who have hugely hairy issues usually
stay further apart than that - like, separate sets.
If it's not your ex that you're "stuck with", but just someone who
swings
badly or who had garlic/gorgonzola/sardine salad for dinner, well, at 120
bpm a balance-and-swing takes, what, 8 seconds? Times, say 20 times
through the dance?
Fergoshsakes, people, it's less than THREE MINUTES out of your life. I've
had SUBWAY rides that've gotten WAY more personal than swings, and lasted
a LOT longer.
When did it start to be the caller's job to provide a customized Peak
Experience for every dancer in the hall, every minute of the night?
Maybe it's part of the same consumer mentality that makes us want perfect,
uniform fruit in our grocery section -- which is why you can now buy the
same three tasteless (but shiny and pretty!) varieties of apples in every
store -- and the weird looking heirloom ones that actually taste strong
and unique and, oh, I dunno, PERSONABLE, are harder and harder to come
by...
cheers,
Amy
29 Jan
29 Jan
8:36 p.m.
New subject: Shadow swings and Irrational Hypocrisy
Thanks Amy, well written! John McIntire, Unity ME
"Here's my take: I have BEEN one of those "oh god my ex is here and I
REALLY don't wan't to get stuck in a swing together" people, and, well, I
always figured it was MY business to keep a buffer zone, not the caller's.
Shadows are usually someone in close proximity - the next opposite gender
person down the line - and people who have hugely hairy issues usually
stay further apart than that - like, separate sets.
If it's not your ex that you're "stuck with", but just someone who
swings
badly or who had garlic/gorgonzola/sardine salad for dinner, well, at 120
bpm a balance-and-swing takes, what, 8 seconds? Times, say 20 times
through the dance?
Fergoshsakes, people, it's less than THREE MINUTES out of your life. I've
had SUBWAY rides that've gotten WAY more personal than swings, and
lasted
a LOT longer.
When did it start to be the caller's job to provide a customized Peak
Experience for every dancer in the hall, every minute of the night?
Maybe it's part of the same consumer mentality that makes us want perfect,
uniform fruit in our grocery section -- which is why you can now buy the
same three tasteless (but shiny and pretty!) varieties of apples in every
store -- and the weird looking heirloom ones that actually taste strong
and unique and, oh, I dunno, PERSONABLE, are harder and harder to
come
by...
cheers,
Amy"
6142
days inactive
6147
days old
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
8 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
Amy Cann -
Barbara Groh -
Bob Isaacs -
cbr＠sccs.swarthmore.edu -
Charles M. Hannum -
Greg McKenzie -
John C. McIntire -
Koren A. Wake