23 Jun
2010
23 Jun
'10
2:28 a.m.
Hi to everyone and especially to any dance organizers or organizer-
wanna-be s.
I'm passing on this promotional info for a local dance organizer. He
notes: Just to be clear, there will not be any "callers training" as
such. Callers are most welcome, but it is about the issues and
mechanics of running dances and organizations.
From the early materials I saw, it looked like it offered some-25+
specific-topic courses grouped under three stages of community
development. Good stuff!
Joy Greenwolfe
Durham, NC
Southeast Dance Leadership Conference:
Tools for a Vibrant Dance Community
October 1-3, Haw River State Park, Summit Conference Center
Browns Summit, NC (near Greensboro)
Presenters will be: Diane Silver (NC), Bruce Hamilton (english caller
from CA), Shawn Brenneman (VA), Rob Harper (Atlanta), and Tyler
Johnson (NC-sound)
The Leadership Conference will be an opportunity to gain tools for
growing, nurturing, and sustaining a thriving dance community. It
will be a time to network with other organizers, callers, musicians,
and dancers from the English, Contra and Square dance communities.
This will be a unique chance to meet and talk on a lot of important
issues.
Learn about the business of operating a dance, marketing your skills
or organization, sound operation, care of a dance floor. Share ideas
for dealing with challenges like under- or over-attendance, different
skill levels and generations, atypical (unexpected) events, getting
and keeping help, developing talent, fulfilling your vision and
recognizing when its time to revisit your vision. Outreach and connect
to neighboring organizations. And have fun too!
Format will include classes, facilitated discussion groups, and time
to consult with experts. Opportunities will be provided for
networking. Meetings to take place on request.
The website has more information, and hopefully by this weekend, we
will have longer descriptions of the courses/topics.
http://conference.rivertone.org.
--
25 Jun
25 Jun
1:17 p.m.
New subject: Gender role switching and 64-bar dances
Lately, as a dancer, I and a fair number of other folks at the Greenfield
(MA) dance have taken to switching gender roles every other time through a
dance. Not for every dance, but as an interesting challenge and a way to
have more interaction with people that you might not normally interact with
if you only dance one role. (I know, folks at gender-free dances are already
there, but a nominally 'gendered' dance is where I'm starting from.)
When you do gender role switching every other time it basically turns a
32-bar dance into a 64-bar one, at least that's what seems to be happening
inside my head when I realize that I have stopped thinking about when to
switch. There are some dances like Alternating Corners where you do
something similar in that the dance in different every other time through,
though with continued prompting from the caller. In the case of Alternating
Corners, the 1s and 2s alternate doing the swing and contra corners.
Will Mentor and I have been talking the possibility of making a true 64-bar
dance that either uses a 64-bar tune or twice through of a standard 32-bar
tune. It opens up some interesting possibilities and challenges around
making a dance that's twice as long but that people remember, get into the
flow of and enjoy.
There are longer dances - 42, 48 and 64 bars - but not many that I'm aware
of. I'm interested to know what other folks experience has been about
writing and calling longer dance sequences. I think this may be something
some dancers are ready for, though I would try it before the break rather
than at 11pm!
Will
--
William M. Loving
Dedication Technologies, Inc.
7 Coach Lane
Amherst, MA 01002-3304 USA
will(a)dedicationtechnologies.com
Tel: +1 413 253-7223 (GMT 5)
Fax: +1 206 202-0476
2:18 p.m.
New subject: Gender role switching and 64-bar dances
Will Loving wrote:
When you do gender role switching every other time it basically turns a
32-bar dance into a 64-bar one, at least that's what seems to be happening
inside my head when I realize that I have stopped thinking about when to
switch.
I swap genders a lot when I dance, but I find switching every time is
hard for exactly this reason: it turns a 32 bar dance into a 64 bar
one. I can hold a 64 bar dance in my head, but it's harder and less
fun. I much prefer switching on whim, where we might switch more or
less often than once per time through the dance. Because the switch
is then a kind of flourish instead of a 'required' move, I don't have
to think about it at all until it happens.
There are some dances like Alternating Corners where you do
something similar in that the dance in different every other time
through, though with continued prompting from the caller. In the
case of Alternating Corners, the 1s and 2s alternate doing the swing
and contra corners.
I don't like the dance alternating corners because dancers don't
internalize it properly. They learn it ok, so they can do it, but
they usually can't handle the caller dropping out. Once the caller
drops out people forget which turn it is and they have to step back
in. I've seen this happen even in groups where a caller could drop
out after two times through on a simplish dance.
Jeff
3:01 p.m.
New subject: Gender role switching and 64-bar dances
What I was noticing about switching every other time through is that for me,
at least, and for some other people I've talked to about it, it did become
internalized and I didn't have to think about it. That was the revelation,
suddenly noticing that I had been dancing for a while, alternating roles and
wasn't even conscious of doing it any more. Of course, it can depend a lot
on your partner and whether they are similarly falling into the rhythm of
it.
Actually, I like Alternating Corners despite the fact the caller has to keep
calling. And my perception is that modern dancers generally like it too
compared to a more traditional corners dance like Chorus Jig where you have
to wait to be active (and which may never happen if sets are long). For a
dance like this, sometimes all you need is a Lisa Greenleaf style minimalist
prompt such as quietly saying "ones" and "twos" just to keep things
going. I
think the alternation makes the dance more interesting and I don't see it as
my purpose to have every dance send dancers off into that la-la, altered zen
state (that I nonetheless cherish as a dancer...)
Will
on 6/25/10 10:18 AM, Jeff Kaufman at jeff(a)alum.swarthmore.edu wrote:
Will Loving wrote:
--
William M. Loving
Dedication Technologies, Inc.
7 Coach Lane
Amherst, MA 01002-3304 USA
will(a)dedicationtechnologies.com
Tel: +1 413 253-7223 (GMT 5)
Fax: +1 206 202-0476
When you do gender role switching every other time it basically turns a
32-bar dance into a 64-bar one, at least that's what seems to be happening
inside my head when I realize that I have stopped thinking about when to
switch.
I swap genders a lot when I dance, but I find switching every time is
hard for exactly this reason: it turns a 32 bar dance into a 64 bar
one. I can hold a 64 bar dance in my head, but it's harder and less
fun. I much prefer switching on whim, where we might switch more or
less often than once per time through the dance. Because the switch
is then a kind of flourish instead of a 'required' move, I don't have
to think about it at all until it happens.
There are some dances like Alternating Corners where you do
something similar in that the dance in different every other time
through, though with continued prompting from the caller. In the
case of Alternating Corners, the 1s and 2s alternate doing the swing
and contra corners.
I don't like the dance alternating corners because dancers don't
internalize it properly. They learn it ok, so they can do it, but
they usually can't handle the caller dropping out. Once the caller
drops out people forget which turn it is and they have to step back
in. I've seen this happen even in groups where a caller could drop
out after two times through on a simplish dance.
Jeff
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers 
3:09 p.m.
New subject: Gender role switching and 64-bar dances
64-bar and 48-bar dances are problematic because of the piece count.
Basically it's the phone-number problem -- short term memory works
best remembering a maximum of sevenish-eightish pieces, or chunks.
Above that the dancers need to concentrate harder, or be reminded, or
redefine a chunk. (Make swing-circle-swing an entire chunk, for
instance.) I find that's a problem with most of the 48-bar dances I've
run across.
I've only danced one 64-bar dance, and there the caller never dropped
out. It was at a dance festival.
-Chris Page
San Diego
8:29 p.m.
New subject: Gender role switching and 64-bar dances
64-bar and 48-bar dances are problematic because of the piece count.
I agree that piece count becomes a real issue. The limited playing around
I've done with things like 48 bar dances have things like heys where folks
are on autopilot for one move through a phrase of the dance.
I think it also requires more attention to avoid repeating moves. If there
were three circle lefts in a 64 bar dance (how many 32 bar dances have 2?),
I think each one adds a moment of possible confusion as folks have to
remember what happens after the current circle.
Alternating Corners, while a fun dance, requires folks to remember a piece
of information for halfway through the dance (i.e. who went last). It's like
the second time coming out of a circle left and having to remember where
you're at.
I think a caller would have more luck dropping out on a 64 bar dance if the
first and second half didn't share a bunch of the same moves.
I'm curious what folks feel the effect of having a couple be inactive is on
the total memory of the dancers? I'm talking about scenarios like chorus jig
where one couple goes down and back twice while the other couple stands
there. An argument could be made that folks pausing get less tired, stay
fresher, and help the dancers remember the dance. My opinion is that the
inactives are more likely to zone out and need to be brought back in by the
actives. Its nice in Chorus Jig if the 2s remembered to slide up the hall,
but I find the 2s often have trouble just remembering which 1s to cast. I'd
advocate for 64 bar dances to keep everyone moving, and not have a lot of
time where some folks are waiting for other folks to do a move.
--
Luke Donev
http://www.lukedonev.com
Luke.Donev(a)gmail.com
26 Jun
26 Jun
7:20 p.m.
New subject: Gender role switching and 64-bar dances
I have danced 'modern' variants of Chorus Jig where the twos go UP the
middle while the ones go down the outside.
Chorus jig has also lent itself to MANY flourishes and playful adlibs to
make use of the available time:
1) The twos can swing in the middle while the ones are going down the
outside, but only if they take responsibility for ending in time to be in
place for the ones return. It's a short swing if you are responsible about
it.
2) During ones down the center, a two in one set will sometimes swing with a
two in the next set over if such should be available and willing. Again a
short swing and critical to be ready for the cast off.
3) As a one, and with a willing partner, you can go down the center, turn as
a couple, and then at the last minute do a forward moving roll-away with a
half-sashay to trade places for the cast off. (Naughty and sometimes
startling to the twos who are signaling 'no, no, you're on the wrong side',
but fun if executed properly. Timing of course must be spot on).
I am always mindful as both dancer and caller of Larry Jennings comment in
one of his books (paraphrased): "Twirl away for all I care, but do it on
your own time."
Will
on 6/25/10 4:29 PM, Luke Donev at luke.donev(a)gmail.com wrote:
64-bar and 48-bar dances are problematic because of
the piece count.
I agree that piece count becomes a real issue. The limited playing around
I've done with things like 48 bar dances have things like heys where folks
are on autopilot for one move through a phrase of the dance.
I think it also requires more attention to avoid repeating moves. If there
were three circle lefts in a 64 bar dance (how many 32 bar dances have 2?),
I think each one adds a moment of possible confusion as folks have to
remember what happens after the current circle.
Alternating Corners, while a fun dance, requires folks to remember a piece
of information for halfway through the dance (i.e. who went last). It's like
the second time coming out of a circle left and having to remember where
you're at.
I think a caller would have more luck dropping out on a 64 bar dance if the
first and second half didn't share a bunch of the same moves.
I'm curious what folks feel the effect of having a couple be inactive is on
the total memory of the dancers? I'm talking about scenarios like chorus jig
where one couple goes down and back twice while the other couple stands
there. An argument could be made that folks pausing get less tired, stay
fresher, and help the dancers remember the dance. My opinion is that the
inactives are more likely to zone out and need to be brought back in by the
actives. Its nice in Chorus Jig if the 2s remembered to slide up the hall,
but I find the 2s often have trouble just remembering which 1s to cast. I'd
advocate for 64 bar dances to keep everyone moving, and not have a lot of
time where some folks are waiting for other folks to do a move.
--
William M. Loving
Dedication Technologies, Inc.
7 Coach Lane
Amherst, MA 01002-3304 USA
will(a)dedicationtechnologies.com
Tel: +1 413 253-7223 (GMT 5)
Fax: +1 206 202-0476
28 Jun
28 Jun
6:24 p.m.
New subject: Gender role switching and 64-bar dances
Will Loving wrote:
1) The twos can swing in the middle while the ones are going down
the outside, but only if they take responsibility for ending in
time to be in place for the ones return. It's a short swing if
you are responsible about it.
It's not actually a short swing. You have the whole A1 to come into
the middle, swing, and get back to place. So about 12 counts of
swinging. The issue is timing, not length: unlike a normal swing,
where you swing until the end of the phrase, here you have to stop
just slightly early, perhaps 2 beats, to be out of the ones' way when
they come down the middle at the top of the A2.
Jeff
25 Jun
25 Jun
3:31 p.m.
New subject: Gender role switching and 64-bar dances
On Jun 25, 2010, at 9:17 AM, Will Loving wrote:
Lately, as a dancer, I and a fair number of other
folks at the Greenfield
(MA) dance have taken to switching gender roles every other time through a
dance. Not for every dance, but as an interesting challenge and a way to
have more interaction with people that you might not normally interact with
if you only dance one role. (I know, folks at gender-free dances are already
there, but a nominally 'gendered' dance is where I'm starting from.)
An interesting question, perhaps not appropriate for this thread, is what else you change
in how you dance when you change gender roles. Sure, in the woman's role you may be
doing different parts of the calls (the actual chaining in a Ladies Chain, or leading the
Hey instead of going second). I am talking about "dance feel". When swinging
are you leading the exit from the swing, when in time and in what direction, or are you
allowing your current partner to lead the exit? Generally I dance the man's role.
When I encounter men dancing the woman's role, some "feel" to me like the
other women in the line in terms of flourishes, ending swings, etc. Others feel like men,
who are leading, completely doing their own thing, and unable to "listen" to any
conversation related to lead/follow. When I switch roles, I try to also change from lead
to follow, as I think it applies to contra dancing.
When you do gender role switching every other time it
basically turns a
32-bar dance into a 64-bar one, at least that's what seems to be happening
inside my head when I realize that I have stopped thinking about when to
switch. There are some dances like Alternating Corners where you do
something similar in that the dance in different every other time through,
though with continued prompting from the caller. In the case of Alternating
Corners, the 1s and 2s alternate doing the swing and contra corners.
Alternating Corners is a great dance. One wonders if that same idea could (should) be
applied to other 1's preferential dances.
Will Mentor and I have been talking the possibility of
making a true 64-bar
dance that either uses a 64-bar tune or twice through of a standard 32-bar
tune. It opens up some interesting possibilities and challenges around
making a dance that's twice as long but that people remember, get into the
flow of and enjoy.
There are longer dances - 42, 48 and 64 bars - but not many that I'm aware
of. I'm interested to know what other folks experience has been about
writing and calling longer dance sequences.
I find most 4-face-4 dances don't have enough time in 32 bars to do anything
interesting -- especially if they try to get into a temporary square formation. Perhaps
writing a new 4-face-4 would be the place to start. Also, I would go for 48 bars, not
64-bars initially. Find a good AABBCC tune and write a dance around it. I am afraid that
coming up with a 48 or 64 bar compelling and memorable storyline for a normal DI or Becket
contra would be difficult.
One question to think about -- what do you want or need the extra music for?
* Swinging more people -- a few dances already have 3 swings
* Longer swings
* The ability to include a "big" figure (e.g., Contra Corners, the
"walk" of Wizard's Walk)
* The ability to set up or transition (this would be my reason in a 4-face-4
* The ability to have a relaxed part and an energetic part, and space them out a little
more
--
Clark Baker, Belmont, MA
cmbaker(a)tiac.net
26 Jun
26 Jun
1:37 a.m.
New subject: Gender role switching and 64-bar dances
Will Loving wrote:
Will Mentor and I have been talking the possibility of
making a true 64-bar
dance that either uses a 64-bar tune or twice through of a standard 32-bar
tune. It opens up some interesting possibilities and challenges around
making a dance that's twice as long but that people remember, get into the
flow of and enjoy.
There are longer dances - 42, 48 and 64 bars - but not
many that I'm aware
of. I'm interested to know what other folks experience has been about
writing and calling longer dance sequences. I think this may be something
some dancers are ready for, though I would try it before the break rather
than at 11pm!
Over in English-dance-land, 64-bar longways dances (usually AABBAABB) were
common in the early 1800s (as were triple minors). What's happened in the
dance revival is that those 64-bar triple minors have been adapted into
three-couple-set dances (which is, incidentally, where Ted Sanella got the idea
for triplets.) Dances like "Prince William" and "Fandango".
The conceptual chunking in those 64-bar sequences was pretty high. ("Prince
William" has "cross over one couple", "double crossover mirror
hey",
"contra corners", and "lead out at the sides", which were all knwon
figures in
1800, so it was really only four chunks for 64 bars.)
Anyway, I can't think of any English dance that was published as a 64 bar
longways duple or triple and was revived as one. The closest I can come is
"Wakefield Hunt", a 48-bar triple-minor, triple-progression, which you
don't
have to play a million times through for everybody to get to be active.
64-bar perils: More figure takes longer to teach. Takes twice as long to
iterate through dance, and if it isn't symmetric people may feel cheated if
they don't get to do the "better" role. Band has to play longer or you get
fewer times through the dance.
I like the idea of trying 64 bars for four-face-fours where you might need the
time to get into or out of square formation and still want to do a figure of
some interest. In longways, I'd consider starting with double or even triple
progession so that you have a longer sequence but everybody gets to be 1s and
to encounter many other dancers along the way.
-- Alan
--
===============================================================================
Alan Winston --- WINSTON(a)SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056
Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025
===============================================================================
3:57 a.m.
New subject: Gender role switching and 64-bar dances
The following are all 64-bar dances. The first is modern and for 3 in a
line. The 2nd is a 4-facing-4 in a double sicilian circle and the others
are square sets. The gender roles are virtually identical in all of them.
CORNISH SIX HAND REEL
DANISH DOUBLE QUADRILLE
CUMBERLAND SQUARE EIGHT
GOATHLAND SQUARE EIGHT
LA RUSSE QUADRILLE
Michael Barraclough
www.michaelbarraclough.com
-----Original Message-----
From: callers-bounces(a)sharedweight.net
[mailto:callers-bounces@sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Alan Winston - SSRL
Central Computing
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 9:38 PM
To: Caller's discussion list
Subject: Re: [Callers] Gender role switching and 64-bar dances
Will Loving wrote:
Will Mentor and I have been talking the possibility of
making a true
64-bar
dance that either uses a 64-bar tune or twice through
of a standard 32-bar
tune. It opens up some interesting possibilities and challenges around
making a dance that's twice as long but that people remember, get into the
flow of and enjoy.
There are longer dances - 42, 48 and 64 bars - but not
many that I'm aware
of. I'm interested to know what other folks experience has been about
writing and calling longer dance sequences. I think this may be something
some dancers are ready for, though I would try it before the break rather
than at 11pm!
Over in English-dance-land, 64-bar longways dances (usually AABBAABB) were
common in the early 1800s (as were triple minors). What's happened in the
dance revival is that those 64-bar triple minors have been adapted into
three-couple-set dances (which is, incidentally, where Ted Sanella got the
idea
for triplets.) Dances like "Prince William" and "Fandango".
The conceptual chunking in those 64-bar sequences was pretty high.
("Prince
William" has "cross over one couple", "double crossover mirror
hey",
"contra corners", and "lead out at the sides", which were all knwon
figures
in
1800, so it was really only four chunks for 64 bars.)
Anyway, I can't think of any English dance that was published as a 64 bar
longways duple or triple and was revived as one. The closest I can come is
"Wakefield Hunt", a 48-bar triple-minor, triple-progression, which you
don't
have to play a million times through for everybody to get to be active.
64-bar perils: More figure takes longer to teach. Takes twice as long to
iterate through dance, and if it isn't symmetric people may feel cheated if
they don't get to do the "better" role. Band has to play longer or you get
fewer times through the dance.
I like the idea of trying 64 bars for four-face-fours where you might need
the
time to get into or out of square formation and still want to do a figure of
some interest. In longways, I'd consider starting with double or even
triple
progession so that you have a longer sequence but everybody gets to be 1s
and
to encounter many other dancers along the way.
-- Alan
--
============================================================================
===
Alan Winston --- WINSTON(a)SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone:
650/926-3056
Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA
94025
============================================================================
===
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
3:59 a.m.
New subject: Gender role switching and 64-bar dances
Michael wrote:
The following are all 64-bar dances. The first is
modern and for 3 in a
line. The 2nd is a 4-facing-4 in a double sicilian circle and the others
are square sets. The gender roles are virtually identical in all of them.
CORNISH SIX HAND REEL
DANISH DOUBLE QUADRILLE
CUMBERLAND SQUARE EIGHT
GOATHLAND SQUARE EIGHT
LA RUSSE QUADRILLE
Because this was in the context of contra dancing, I was thinking of longways
dances in duple or triple minor with a repeating progressive figure that takes
you to a new couple, and trying to make the point that people in the English
revival movement so far have thought that if you had a cool 64-bar figure it
made sense to fix it up into a three-couple set rather than dance it for as
many as will in arbitrarily long sets.
I could have brought up "Mr. Turner's Academy Cotillion", which has
something
like a 92-bar figure+chorus, repeated four or five times for different figures,
but I didn't think that was relevant to the discussion.
-- Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: callers-bounces(a)sharedweight.net
[mailto:callers-bounces@sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Alan Winston - SSRL
Central Computing
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 9:38 PM
To: Caller's discussion list
Subject: Re: [Callers] Gender role switching and 64-bar dances
Will Loving wrote:
Will Mentor
and I have been talking the possibility of making a true
64-bar
> dance that either uses a 64-bar tune or twice through of a standard 32-bar
> tune. It opens up some interesting possibilities and challenges around
> making a dance that's twice as long but that people remember, get into the
> flow of and enjoy. > There are longer dances - 42, 48 and 64 bars -
but not many that I'm aware
> of. I'm interested to know what other folks experience has been about
> writing and calling longer dance sequences. I think this may be something
> some dancers are ready for, though I would try it before the break rather
> than at 11pm!
Over in English-dance-land, 64-bar longways dances
(usually AABBAABB) were
common in the early 1800s (as were triple minors). What's happened in the
dance revival is that those 64-bar triple minors have been adapted into
three-couple-set dances (which is, incidentally, where Ted Sanella got the
idea
for triplets.) Dances like "Prince William" and "Fandango".
The conceptual chunking in those 64-bar sequences was
pretty high.
("Prince
William" has "cross over one couple", "double crossover mirror
hey",
"contra corners", and "lead out at the sides", which were all knwon
figures
in
1800, so it was really only four chunks for 64 bars.)
Anyway, I can't think of any English dance that
was published as a 64 bar
longways duple or triple and was revived as one. The closest I can come is
"Wakefield Hunt", a 48-bar triple-minor, triple-progression, which you
don't
have to play a million times through for everybody to get to be active.
64-bar perils: More figure takes longer to teach.
Takes twice as long to
iterate through dance, and if it isn't symmetric people may feel cheated if
they don't get to do the "better" role. Band has to play longer or you
get
fewer times through the dance.
I like the idea of trying 64 bars for four-face-fours
where you might need
the
time to get into or out of square formation and still want to do a figure of
some interest. In longways, I'd consider starting with double or even
triple
progession so that you have a longer sequence but everybody gets to be 1s
and
to encounter many other dancers along the way.
-- Alan
--
============================================================================
===
Alan Winston --- WINSTON(a)SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone:
650/926-3056
Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA
94025
============================================================================
===
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
--
===============================================================================
Alan Winston --- WINSTON(a)SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056
Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025
===============================================================================
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contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
11 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing -
Chris Page -
Clark Baker -
Jeff Kaufman -
Joy Greenwolfe -
Luke Donev -
Michael Barraclough -
Will Loving