15 Feb
2014
15 Feb
'14
1:18 p.m.
When I started contra dancing, people know how to allemande. But over the years people
starting bending and twisting the wrists of those with whom they allemanded, so today, in
defense, dancers often allemande with a stiff open, bent non-thumb fingers, or wrist to
wrist. Thus I was pondering a workshop on correct allemanding:
1) thumbs interlocked, the other four fingers wrapped over the other's hand,
2) the top of your hand and top of forearm forming a straight line, ensuring the
other's wrist is not contorted
3) arm not held stiff, but used as a spring to maintain comfortable tension with the other
dancer.
Such a workshop should be held in the middle of the evening, last 5-8 minutes minutes, and
precede a dance with multiple allemandes.
So I am asking for dances which have at least three, and preferably four allemandes
Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217-239-5844
Links to photos of many of my drawings and paintings are at www.ArtComesFuerst.com
15 Feb
15 Feb
2:34 p.m.
Thumbs NOT interlocked, you mean?
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Michael Fuerst <mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com>wrote;wrote:
When I started contra dancing, people know how to
allemande. But over the
years people starting bending and twisting the wrists of those with whom
they allemanded, so today, in defense, dancers often allemande with a stiff
open, bent non-thumb fingers, or wrist to wrist. Thus I was pondering a
workshop on correct allemanding:
1) thumbs interlocked, the other four fingers wrapped over the other's
hand,
2) the top of your hand and top of forearm forming a straight line,
ensuring the other's wrist is not contorted
3) arm not held stiff, but used as a spring to maintain comfortable
tension with the other dancer.
Such a workshop should be held in the middle of the evening, last 5-8
minutes minutes, and precede a dance with multiple allemandes.
So I am asking for dances which have at least three, and preferably four
allemandes
Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217-239-5844
Links to photos of many of my drawings and paintings are at
www.ArtComesFuerst.com
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
3:48 p.m.
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014, Michael Fuerst wrote:
When I started contra dancing, people know how to allemande. But
over the years people starting bending and twisting the wrists of
those with whom they allemanded, so today, in defense, dancers often
allemande with a stiff open, bent non-thumb fingers, or wrist to
wrist. Thus I was pondering a workshop on correct allemanding:
1) thumbs interlocked, the other four fingers wrapped over the other's
hand,
As Lindsay's surprised interjection indicates, opinions vary widely about
correct styling here, and depending on exactly how you were phrasing
yourself, I might well loudly correct you if you were trying to workshop
this anywhere I'm dancing.
For my dancing style, interlocked thumbs are dangerous.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
4:20 p.m.
I should have said thumbs an wrapped around the other's hand. Interlocked was the
wrong.
Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217-239-5844
On Saturday, February 15, 2014 2:49 PM, Aahz Maruch <aahz(a)pobox.com> wrote:
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014, Michael Fuerst wrote:
When I started contra dancing, people know how to allemande. But
over the years people starting bending and twisting the wrists of
those with whom they allemanded, so today, in defense, dancers often
allemande with a stiff open, bent non-thumb fingers, or wrist to
wrist. Thus I was pondering a workshop on correct allemanding:
1) thumbs interlocked, the other four fingers wrapped over the other's
hand,
As Lindsay's surprised interjection indicates, opinions vary widely about
correct styling here, and depending on exactly how you were phrasing
yourself, I might well loudly correct you if you were trying to workshop
this anywhere I'm dancing.
For my dancing style, interlocked thumbs are dangerous.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
5:59 p.m.
I have done this:
I say, "Wrists are strongest when straight. Fingers are strongest, when
curved -- their natural state." Then I discuss symmetry. In an
allemande, both peoples arms should be bent, so as to permit a
comfortable connection. Then I say, "it's never a grip! It's a hook!"
and, for dancing purposes I have eliminated the word "grip" from my
regular teaching.
Then I have advocated the return of the interlocking (but not locked)
thumb. I have said "it just feels better," at which point I receive from
some young and very experienced dancers, "No it doesn't! I think it
feels better when the thumb is next to the hand, and not interlocking!"
Then I realize certain things are habits that we learn to like.
I also teach protective hand positions. And, in my book,
/ContraDictations/, I wrote an article with drawings, /If Allemande
Left, Where Did Allemande Go? /Still available...
~erik hoffman
oakland, ca
On 2/15/2014 10:18 AM, Michael Fuerst wrote:
When I started contra dancing, people know how to
allemande. But over the years people starting bending and twisting the wrists of those
with whom they allemanded, so today, in defense, dancers often allemande with a stiff
open, bent non-thumb fingers, or wrist to wrist. Thus I was pondering a workshop on
correct allemanding:
1) thumbs interlocked, the other four fingers wrapped over the other's hand,
2) the top of your hand and top of forearm forming a straight line, ensuring the
other's wrist is not contorted
3) arm not held stiff, but used as a spring to maintain comfortable tension with the
other dancer.
Such a workshop should be held in the middle of the evening, last 5-8 minutes minutes,
and precede a dance with multiple allemandes.
So I am asking for dances which have at least three, and preferably four allemandes
Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217-239-5844
Links to photos of many of my drawings and paintings are at www.ArtComesFuerst.com
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
6:05 p.m.
And in my reply, I used "interlocking thumbs." Now I recall that I
think, "Thumbs as guideposts" is a better way to describe my preferred
allemande.
~erik hoffman
oakland, ca
On 2/15/2014 1:20 PM, Michael Fuerst wrote:
I should have said thumbs an wrapped around the
other's hand. Interlocked was the wrong.
Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217-239-5844
On Saturday, February 15, 2014 2:49 PM, Aahz Maruch <aahz(a)pobox.com> wrote:
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014, Michael Fuerst wrote:
When I started contra dancing, people know how to
allemande. But
over the years people starting bending and twisting the wrists of
those with whom they allemanded, so today, in defense, dancers often
allemande with a stiff open, bent non-thumb fingers, or wrist to
wrist. Thus I was pondering a workshop on correct allemanding:
1) thumbs interlocked, the other four fingers wrapped over the other's
hand,
As Lindsay's surprised interjection indicates, opinions vary widely
about
correct styling here, and depending on exactly how you were phrasing
yourself, I might well loudly correct you if you were trying to workshop
this anywhere I'm dancing.
For my dancing style, interlocked thumbs are dangerous. 
6:15 p.m.
When I think "lots of allemandes," I usually think first of Gene Hubert's
Ben's Spinoff #3 (4 allemandes in the A1), and Susan Kevra's Hume Fogg Reel (3 in
the B1). They both have a series of allemandes in succession, and are not too challenging
otherwise.
Other, more challenging, dances with lots of allemandes (again, I am thinking of a series
of allemandes) are Fuller Park Fantasy by Paul Balliet (4 throughout the A parts), and
Reel to Reel by Cary Ravitz (4 in the A1) (the latter with the extra bonus of orbits).
This is apart from many other dances that include several allemandes to change between
wave formations, another fun way to do it. Snake Oil Reel, Chuck the Budgie, or Amherst
& Wooster come to mind.
Joy
Durham, NC
On Feb 15, 2014, at 1:18 PM, Michael Fuerst wrote:
When I started contra dancing, people know how to
allemande. But over the years people starting bending and twisting the wrists of those
with whom they allemanded, so today, in defense, dancers often allemande with a stiff
open, bent non-thumb fingers, or wrist to wrist. Thus I was pondering a workshop on
correct allemanding:
1) thumbs interlocked, the other four fingers wrapped over the other's hand,
2) the top of your hand and top of forearm forming a straight line, ensuring the
other's wrist is not contorted
3) arm not held stiff, but used as a spring to maintain comfortable tension with the
other dancer.
Such a workshop should be held in the middle of the evening, last 5-8 minutes minutes,
and precede a dance with multiple allemandes.
So I am asking for dances which have at least three, and preferably four allemandes
Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217-239-5844
Links to photos of many of my drawings and paintings are at www.ArtComesFuerst.com
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
11:57 p.m.
Mary Wesley called a dance tonight with Five allemandes. Perhaps someone
at Flurry remembers what it was.
On Saturday, February 15, 2014, Joy Greenwolfe <joy2the(a)mindspring.com>
wrote:
When I think "lots of allemandes," I usually
think first of Gene Hubert's
Ben's Spinoff #3 (4 allemandes in the A1), and Susan Kevra's Hume Fogg Reel
(3 in the B1). They both have a series of allemandes in succession, and are
not too challenging otherwise.
Other, more challenging, dances with lots of allemandes (again, I am
thinking of a series of allemandes) are Fuller Park Fantasy by Paul Balliet
(4 throughout the A parts), and Reel to Reel by Cary Ravitz (4 in the A1)
(the latter with the extra bonus of orbits).
This is apart from many other dances that include several allemandes to
change between wave formations, another fun way to do it. Snake Oil Reel,
Chuck the Budgie, or Amherst & Wooster come to mind.
Joy
Durham, NC
On Feb 15, 2014, at 1:18 PM, Michael Fuerst wrote:
When I started contra dancing, people know how to
allemande. But over
the years people starting bending and twisting the wrists of
those with
whom they allemanded, so today, in defense, dancers often allemande with a
stiff open, bent non-thumb fingers, or wrist to wrist. Thus I was
pondering a workshop on correct allemanding:
1) thumbs interlocked, the other four fingers wrapped over the other's
hand,
2) the top of your hand and top of forearm forming a straight line,
ensuring the
other's wrist is not contorted
3) arm not held stiff, but used as a spring to
maintain comfortable
tension with the other dancer.
Such a workshop should be held in the middle of the evening, last 5-8
minutes
minutes, and precede a dance with multiple allemandes.
So I am asking for dances which have at least three, and preferably four
allemandes
Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801
217-239-5844
Links to photos of many of my drawings and
paintings are at
www.ArtComesFuerst.com
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net <javascript:;>
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net <javascript:;>
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
16 Feb
16 Feb
1:32 a.m.
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014, Michael Fuerst wrote:
I should have said thumbs an wrapped around the other's hand.
Interlocked was the wrong.
<whew> I do know people who believe that interlocked thumbs are correct,
and I've been on a campaign to discourage the practice. ;-)
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
4:07 a.m.
And I'm on a (perhaps hopeless) campaign to restore it.
So, Aahz, why do you want to eliminate it? I'm talking about the thumbs
up as guideposts, fingers hooked around the others hand, a hook, not a
grip, wrists straight, fingers curved. Is it just the safety issue? I
play music. I teach music. I worry a lot about my hands! I have things I
do to protect myself, and I don't let people grab and grip, or bend my
wrist in some painful way.
~erik hoffman
oakland, ca
On 2/15/2014 10:32 PM, Aahz Maruch wrote:
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014, Michael Fuerst wrote:
I should have said thumbs an wrapped around the
other's hand.
Interlocked was the wrong.
<whew> I do know people who believe that
interlocked thumbs are correct,
and I've been on a campaign to discourage the practice. ;-)
9:20 a.m.
I've had my thumb wrenched when someone hangs on too long with this
grip.<http://us.cdn3.123rf.com/168nwm/tribalium123/tribalium1231208/trib…
But the original topic was "people ... bending and twisting the wrists".
My solution is this: I say "ouch", and physically straighten out the
wrist-crunch with my free hand. Maybe I say "sorry, carpal tunnel" to
excuse this tiny bit of violence.
I can do this in the 5 seconds I have. And I've seen the same guy give me
a straight allemande later that night, so it seems to have a good effect.
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 4:07 AM, Erik Hoffman <erik(a)erikhoffman.com> wrote:
And I'm on a (perhaps hopeless) campaign to
restore it.
So, Aahz, why do you want to eliminate it? I'm talking about the thumbs up
as guideposts, fingers hooked around the others hand, a hook, not a grip,
wrists straight, fingers curved. Is it just the safety issue? I play music.
I teach music. I worry a lot about my hands! I have things I do to protect
myself, and I don't let people grab and grip, or bend my wrist in some
painful way.
~erik hoffman
oakland, ca
On 2/15/2014 10:32 PM, Aahz Maruch wrote:
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014, Michael Fuerst wrote:
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I should have said thumbs an wrapped around the
other's hand.
Interlocked was the wrong.
<whew> I do know people who believe that interlocked thumbs are correct,
and I've been on a campaign to discourage the practice. ;-)
11:25 a.m.
On Sun, Feb 16, 2014, Erik Hoffman wrote:
On 2/15/2014 10:32 PM, Aahz Maruch wrote:
Oddly enough, as has been pointed out here, you are a somewhat large-ish
man -- that means your personal safety requirements are not necessarily
what's appropriate for the general dancer population.
So yeah, it's pretty much all about safety from my POV. Any kind of
spinning move out of allemande or wave risks yanking the thumb. And
actually, my concern is more about waves than allemandes: the grip is
mostly the same for both and the spinning half-sashy is pretty much
standard these days.
I have no idea what you mean by "guideposts", though; from my POV either
the thumbs are interlocked or they're not. (If each person's thumb can
touch the other person's webbing between thumb and forefinger they're
interlocked.)
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014, Michael Fuerst wrote:
So, Aahz, why do you want to eliminate it? I'm talking about the
thumbs up as guideposts, fingers hooked around the others hand, a
hook, not a grip, wrists straight, fingers curved. Is it just the
safety issue? I play music. I teach music. I worry a lot about my
hands! I have things I do to protect myself, and I don't let people
grab and grip, or bend my wrist in some painful way.
I should have said thumbs an wrapped around the other's hand.
Interlocked was the wrong.
<whew> I do know people who believe that interlocked thumbs are
correct, and I've been on a campaign to discourage the practice. ;-)
12:43 p.m.
Thanks you Joy and Les for the suggested dances.
Does anyone have additional suggestions?
I think what I had in mind are dances where everyone allemandes 1 1/2 at least once plus
allemande 3/4 or more at least one additional time
Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217-239-5844
On Sunday, February 16, 2014 10:25 AM, Aahz Maruch <aahz(a)pobox.com> wrote:
On Sun, Feb 16, 2014, Erik Hoffman wrote:
On 2/15/2014 10:32 PM, Aahz Maruch wrote:
Oddly enough, as has been pointed out here, you are a somewhat large-ish
man -- that means your personal safety requirements are not necessarily
what's appropriate for the general dancer population.
So yeah, it's pretty much all about safety from my POV. Any kind of
spinning move out of allemande or wave risks yanking the thumb. And
actually, my concern is more about waves than allemandes: the grip is
mostly the same for both and the spinning half-sashy is pretty much
standard these days.
I have no idea what you mean by "guideposts", though; from my POV either
the thumbs are interlocked or they're not. (If each person's thumb can
touch the other person's webbing between thumb and forefinger they're
interlocked.)
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014, Michael Fuerst wrote:
So, Aahz, why do you want to eliminate it? I'm talking about the
thumbs up as guideposts, fingers hooked around the others hand, a
hook, not a grip, wrists straight, fingers curved. Is it just the
safety issue? I play music. I teach music. I worry a lot about my
hands! I have things I do to protect myself, and I don't let people
grab and grip, or bend my wrist in some painful way.
I should have said thumbs an wrapped around the other's hand.
Interlocked was the wrong.
<whew> I do know people who believe that interlocked thumbs are
correct, and I've been on a campaign to discourage the practice. ;-) 
1:46 p.m.
On 14-02-15 10:18 AM, Michael Fuerst wrote:
So I am asking for dances which have at least three, and preferably four allemandes
Searching my personal collection, I find:
6 allemandes:
"Al's Half a Heyday" [Al Olson] (but 2 are only 1/2)
5 allemandes:
"Jeffro's Tree" [Don Flaherty]
"Chuck the Budgie" [Rick Mohr]
"Remember the Alamo" [Gene Hubert] (but 4 are only 1/2)
4 allemandes:
"Two Whos in the Middle" [Al Olson]
"Chichester House Reel" [Steve Zakon]
"Dr Brown's Prescription" [David Kirchner]
4 allemandes, one of which is only 1/2:
"Coal Country Contra" [Ron Buchanan]
"Eric on Mondays" [David Kaynor]
"Al's Answer" [Al Olson -> David Kaynor]
"Hey in the Middle" [Tom Hinds]
"Thinking of John" [Erik Hoffman]
"Hull's Surprise" [Tom Hinds]
4 allemandes, two of which are only 1/2:
"Batja's Breakdown" [Tom Hinds]
"Ben's Spinoff #3" [Gene Hubert]
"Ben's Spinoff #2" [Gene Hubert]
"Southern Swing" [Steve Zakon]
"Fuller Park Fantasy" [Paul Balliet]
"Sunday on the Green" [Jim Kitch] (circle mixer)
-Michael
19 Feb
19 Feb
12:36 a.m.
New subject: Allemandes
On Feb 15, 2014, at 2:59 PM, Erik Hoffman wrote, re teaching about
allemande holds:
I say, "Wrists are strongest when straight.
Fingers are strongest,
when curved -- their natural state." ...
I totally agree. Straight wrists and curved fingers are the
most natural state for the hand when pulling on almost anything,
at least if the shape of whatever you're holding permits the
fingers to curve around it. For some examples, look at the
hands in these images:
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/woman-carrying-shopping-bag-advertising-sale…
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/business-woman-carrying-briefcase-8692358.jpg
http://static7.depositphotos.com/1192060/760/i/950/depositphotos_7608804-Wo…
http://www.menshealth.com/mhlists/cms/uploads/1/chinup_1.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:RenoufHelpingHand.jpeg
[rowers]
http://www.freestockphotos.biz/pictures/14/14027/rowboat.jpg
http://thumb1.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/1026019/112272908/stoc…
http://thumb1.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/1571630/142589590/stoc…
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/05/03/nyregion/03subway.span.600.j…
http://etischer.com/europe/Pentax1_10_Hand_holding_pole_on_subway.jpg
http://www.skye4birds.com/toons.htm [parachute ripcord]
http://d3thflcq1yqzn0.cloudfront.net/025912724_iconv.jpeg
[drawer]
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/hand-opening-cabinet-door-26630046.jpg
http://img2-2.timeinc.net/toh/i/a/yard/lawn-mowers-2-00.jpg
http://images.colourbox.com/thumb_COLOURBOX4846423.jpg [curtain]
http://www.thewhirlingwind.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/voting-lever1.jpg
http://www.corbisimages.com/stock-photo/rights-managed/HU021966/female-brak…
http://coffeegeek.com/images/1828/pavoni_lever.jpg
http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corbis-42-15677132.jpg?size=67&uid=9…
[child's wagon]
http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-51015478/stock-vector-vector-illustration-o…
http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/110296/110296,125586162…
http://www.hellomagazine.com/imagenes//celebrities/201107055706/geri-halliw…
[Some mail software may split long URLs, and you might need to take
some care to reassemble them correctly.]
Note the variety of situations depicted in the images. The hands
are pulling in various directions: upward, downward, horizontally,
diagonally. The forces involved can be small (carrying a small
briefcase or opening a cabinet door) or large (doing chin-ups).
The object may simply be held from moving or may actually be
moved, or the person may move toward the object (chin-up bar).
The elbows may be straight or bent. Of course none of the things
people are holding in the pictures will actually grab someone's
hand and unexpectedly twist it into an uncomfortable position,
but there are certainly cases in which the object's resistance to
the person's pull is somewhat unpredictable (kite string spool,
oars in rough water, poles and bars in moving transit vehicle,
water ski bar). Still, all these images show curved fingers and
straight (or nearly straight) wrists.
Now imagine someone doing any or all of the activities shown in
the pictures listed above, but keeping their wrists sharply flexed
and their fingers straight as shown in the these pictures:
http://nervesurgery.wustl.edu/NerveImages/MISC%20-%20EM%20(Images%20Require…
http://cloud.golfloopy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Wrist-Flexion2.jpg
http://www.sonomaorthopedics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Wrist-flexion-f…
It would seem bizarre, wouldn't it?
And yet I've seen many, many dancers offer their hands for
allemandes with wrists bent and fingers straight. I just don't
get it.
*** Important disclaimer: Nothing I say is meant to imply that
it's okay to disrespect the needs of dancers with frail or injured
wrists, elbows, shoulders, thumbs, etc. As just one of many
examples, if someone's physical condition is such that the want
to replace "Men allemande left once and a half" with "Men pass
by left shoulder", other dancers should cheerfully let them do so.
--Jim
/FCR---IMG_3574.jpg){kind=link}
3728
days inactive
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days old
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
14 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
Aahz Maruch -
Erik Hoffman -
James Saxe -
Joy Greenwolfe -
Les Addison -
Lindsay Morris -
Michael Dyck -
Michael Fuerst