29 May
2007
29 May
'07
10:57 a.m.
Had an interesting gig this weekend (a good one, just interesting).
Things were going along smoothly, I thought. The fiddler had made a
comment earlier that I had a high ratio of playing time to down time,
but I didn't think much of it. Before we started the 2nd to last dance
of the first half, and I was waiting for the band to be ready to start
the music, the fiddler snaps at me that I'm teaching too fast and it's
much to stressful for choosing tunes! I looked him straight in the eye,
apologized, and then promised to slow down. I spent the next bit of time
trying to figure out how to slow down. Couldn't think of too many ways.
I slowed my pace of teaching down. I made sure to take a minute and talk
to the band before even requesting that people line up. I introduced the
band before the next dance (although this probably didn't add any time
for the fiddler to think about tune selection).
We made nice at the break and he explained that he was under stress in
other areas of his life. I had done my homework (so I thought) and done
my pre-dance interview - turns out with the wrong musician! The fiddler
was the real leader and he had shown up at the last minute and was too
busy setting up to talk.
Some other fun points: I announced in the 2nd half that we were going to
dance Chorus Jig and the crowd ohhhed and ahhhed and scrambled to line
up!! For the 2nd dance of the evening, we had about 15-20 kids show up.
Some had danced before and they did fine! I had to adjust my language
because I would call a ladies chain and a bunch of the dancers would go
over and back. 8^)
All in all a fun dance! I'd love to hear your thoughts about slowing
down the teaching for musicians who need more time for tune selection.
Any techniques? Since I really try to match my dances to the level of
the dancers, I rarely need a 2nd walkthrough. And since I time my
teaching off of the dancer's speed of doing the moves (calling the next
while they're finishing the previous move), not much time to add there.
Happy Dancing!
Chris Weiler
Goffstown, NH
www.chrisweiler.ws
29 May
29 May
11:31 a.m.
When I first called in Greenfield I was filling in for David Kaynor,
and Mary Cay, wanting to keep it a David Kaynor-styled dance, said
that David always let the folks chat for a bit after they have lined
up. Now I do that at all my dances. I just stand there and do
nothing for a while. A touch of Zen.
This makes the evening more relaxed and social, helps keep the
dancers from getting exhausted, gives the musicians more time
to figure out their music, and allows me to do a mental rehearsal
of the teaching and calling of the dance before I do a walk through.
I think walk throughs should always be efficient. I only slow
them down when that benefits the dancers.
Thanks for the interesting question.
-Peter Amidon
Had an interesting gig this weekend (a good one, just
interesting).
Things were going along smoothly, I thought. The fiddler had made a
comment earlier that I had a high ratio of playing time to down time,
but I didn't think much of it. Before we started the 2nd to last dance
of the first half, and I was waiting for the band to be ready to start
the music, the fiddler snaps at me that I'm teaching too fast and it's
much to stressful for choosing tunes! I looked him straight in the eye,
apologized, and then promised to slow down. I spent the next bit of time
trying to figure out how to slow down. Couldn't think of too many ways.
I slowed my pace of teaching down. I made sure to take a minute and talk
to the band before even requesting that people line up. I introduced the
band before the next dance (although this probably didn't add any time
for the fiddler to think about tune selection).
We made nice at the break and he explained that he was under stress in
other areas of his life. I had done my homework (so I thought) and done
my pre-dance interview - turns out with the wrong musician! The fiddler
was the real leader and he had shown up at the last minute and was too
busy setting up to talk.
Some other fun points: I announced in the 2nd half that we were going to
dance Chorus Jig and the crowd ohhhed and ahhhed and scrambled to line
up!! For the 2nd dance of the evening, we had about 15-20 kids show up.
Some had danced before and they did fine! I had to adjust my language
because I would call a ladies chain and a bunch of the dancers would go
over and back. 8^)
All in all a fun dance! I'd love to hear your thoughts about slowing
down the teaching for musicians who need more time for tune selection.
Any techniques? Since I really try to match my dances to the level of
the dancers, I rarely need a 2nd walkthrough. And since I time my
teaching off of the dancer's speed of doing the moves (calling the next
while they're finishing the previous move), not much time to add there.
Happy Dancing!
Chris Weiler
Goffstown, NH
www.chrisweiler.ws
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6:28 p.m.
Dear Chris:
Time management is an interesting subject. As Dan as suggested there is
a great selection in Larry Jenning's book Give and Take and I would
recommend all callers to read it. Essentially, the Larry Jenning's
model is 12 mintues from walk-through to dance to next dance, that is
about a 2 minute walk-through and about 12-14 times through the dance.
I use this model and for a three hours dance program 14 dances with a 12
minute break. And will map out the dance program like:
8:00pm - 8:12pm
8:12pm - 8:24pm
8:24pm - 8:36pm... etc.
So I know where the start and end time of every dance should be. My
thinking is that dancers are there to dance, so that is what I am going
to provide for them. And before the dance when I am talking to the
band, trying to get a feel what they are about, I am usually relaying
that I am looking to do 14 dances and looking to go 14 times through and
also warn them I usually do a quick walk-through (no more then 2
minutes) and I am ready to go. Even amounts of time (12, 14, 16) all
that the top couple be in the for the last time of the dance. As a
dancer, I never want to dance a dance more then 16 times through.
Honestly I tend to get bored with that dance and want to move on.
So all and all I never in favor of the slow down. I have never been
faced with a musician expressing to me, that they wanted me to slow
down, so I don't know exactly how to handle the situation, but when I
talk to the band about tunes, I will usually talk to them about three
dances @ a time. For example: I will say the next dance I would like
reels with short phrases in the A part, because there are a lot of
balance and turns and a smooth B part, for the next dance just some
smooth dreamy jigs, and the third dance more reels, but smooth A and
short phrases in the B. I will talk to the band after every dance, but
in that is case it is just a reminder of what I have already asked for
and have given them more time to think about what they are going to play.
Peter brings up an interesting point about the David Kaynor Friday
Greenfield Dance. That dance simply just moves on a slower pace. It
goes from 8-12 with a long break and you only dance maybe 12-14 dances
the whole night, because the band is going 16-24 times through. That is
just a nature of that dance. So of course in varies from dance to
dance, but I usually keep a firm 14 dance program.
Jeff
8:29 p.m.
This is all very interesting. Most of my contra calling experience is in
the UK where each dance is typically 13 times through, and only occasionally
longer. However, with a booking coming up at Glen Echo on Friday, I have
been paying particular attention to this subject!
Last Friday at Glen Echo the band was Swallowtail and the pattern was:
19,21,17,17,19,17,17,17,17,17 ie 10 dances in 3hrs with a 30 minute interval
including Waltz and Hambo. Lines formed in 2.5-4 minutes and instruction
was typically 1.5-2.5 minutes.
On Sunday with Laura Brown calling to The Love Mongrels the pattern was:
15,17,21,sq,sq,21,17,19,17,sq,16,17 ie 9 contras and 3 squares (about 9.5
contras). Lines formed in about 1.5-2 mins and instruction was typically
1.5-2.5 minutes. The dance was also 3 hrs but the interval was shorter and
with fewer people it took less time to form lines and take hands 4.
The data shows that 17x through was typical and I did not get any sense from
those present that this was too long.
Michael Barraclough
Itinerant C17 & C21 Dancing Master, eCeilidh and Contra Caller
http://www.michaelbarraclough.com
-----Original Message-----
From: callers-bounces(a)sharedweight.net
[mailto:callers-bounces@sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Petrovitch
Sent: 29 May 2007 19:28
To: Caller's discussion list
Subject: Re: [Callers] slow down...
Dear Chris:
Time management is an interesting subject. As Dan as suggested there is
a great selection in Larry Jenning's book Give and Take and I would
recommend all callers to read it. Essentially, the Larry Jenning's
model is 12 mintues from walk-through to dance to next dance, that is
about a 2 minute walk-through and about 12-14 times through the dance.
I use this model and for a three hours dance program 14 dances with a 12
minute break. And will map out the dance program like:
8:00pm - 8:12pm
8:12pm - 8:24pm
8:24pm - 8:36pm... etc.
So I know where the start and end time of every dance should be. My
thinking is that dancers are there to dance, so that is what I am going
to provide for them. And before the dance when I am talking to the
band, trying to get a feel what they are about, I am usually relaying
that I am looking to do 14 dances and looking to go 14 times through and
also warn them I usually do a quick walk-through (no more then 2
minutes) and I am ready to go. Even amounts of time (12, 14, 16) all
that the top couple be in the for the last time of the dance. As a
dancer, I never want to dance a dance more then 16 times through.
Honestly I tend to get bored with that dance and want to move on.
So all and all I never in favor of the slow down. I have never been
faced with a musician expressing to me, that they wanted me to slow
down, so I don't know exactly how to handle the situation, but when I
talk to the band about tunes, I will usually talk to them about three
dances @ a time. For example: I will say the next dance I would like
reels with short phrases in the A part, because there are a lot of
balance and turns and a smooth B part, for the next dance just some
smooth dreamy jigs, and the third dance more reels, but smooth A and
short phrases in the B. I will talk to the band after every dance, but
in that is case it is just a reminder of what I have already asked for
and have given them more time to think about what they are going to play.
Peter brings up an interesting point about the David Kaynor Friday
Greenfield Dance. That dance simply just moves on a slower pace. It
goes from 8-12 with a long break and you only dance maybe 12-14 dances
the whole night, because the band is going 16-24 times through. That is
just a nature of that dance. So of course in varies from dance to
dance, but I usually keep a firm 14 dance program.
Jeff
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9:05 p.m.
Chris wrote:
Had an interesting gig this weekend (a good one, just
interesting).
Things were going along smoothly, I thought. The fiddler had made a
comment earlier that I had a high ratio of playing time to down time,
but I didn't think much of it. Before we started the 2nd to last dance
of the first half, and I was waiting for the band to be ready to start
the music, the fiddler snaps at me that I'm teaching too fast and it's
much to stressful for choosing tunes! I looked him straight in the eye,
apologized, and then promised to slow down. I spent the next bit of time
trying to figure out how to slow down. Couldn't think of too many ways.
I slowed my pace of teaching down. I made sure to take a minute and talk
to the band before even requesting that people line up. I introduced the
band before the next dance (although this probably didn't add any time
for the fiddler to think about tune selection).
I've read the other responses to this, which were generally great, but I wanted
to explicitly add something that may have been implicit in other answers. I
think you fell into the trap of trying to give this fiddler what he was asking
for (slower teaching) rather than what he needed. There may have been stuff he
needed that you couldn't give him - less stress in his life overall, say - but
in the most simplistic analysis he needs more time to choose tunes so he isn't
feeling stressed and out of control.
One thing you could try - which would work for some fiddlers and not at all for
others - is to, just as soon as the applause dies down for the last dance, hand
him the card you're going to call the next dance from. (Or, as someone else
suggested, start discussing the character of the tune you want.) Then the band
can work on tune choices even before you start teaching. You can give the
dancers their 72.5 seconds of social time, and then do high-quality efficient
teaching, while the band gets 150 seconds to sort out their tune set. (Your
numbers may vary.)
But don't waste the dancers' time with deliberately slow teaching!
(I typically make up a whole program for an evening, cutting-and-pasting the
text files for the dances that I have on disk into a single document and
printing out multiple copies of the document. I reserve the right to change on
the fly, but I can hand the band a copy of the program and dance notes at the
beginning of the evening and then they really feel like they know what's going
on. That's just confusing on split evenings, and then there are times when you
can't be tied down to programs, but with a relatively well-defined gig - a
contra that always gets at least 30 people, say - you can do it. Some bands
really like it; others can't be bothered to look at it.)
-- Alan
===============================================================================
Alan Winston --- WINSTON(a)SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056
Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025
===============================================================================
10:33 p.m.
Hi Everyone,
Just a quick thought on perceived programme speed, the length of time
between dances, and musicians' comfort:
The length of "chat time" prior to a walk-through and the length of the
walk-through itself may comprise most of everyone's perception of the
programmatic pace, but not all of it, but another component of the
perception is the amount of elapsed time between the completion of the
walk-through and the start of the dance itself. If the music and
dancing consistently start within, say, 5 or 6 seconds after completion
of the walkthroughs, the pace may be perceived to be brisk even if some
of the walkthroughs are lengthy.
I'll bet a lot of you have seen Sue Rosen in action and share my belief
that from a dancer's standpoint, she's extremely good. I'd like to
share something from my experience of playing for her which makes me
believe that she's extremely good from a musician's standpoint as well.
Sue seems to have an unusual ability to be in touch with everything and
everyone all at once. I've watched her stand at the microphone, survey
the overall scene, engage in small talk with whoever's nearby on the
dance floor or stage, and, all the while, keep tabs on the band,
ascertaining that the tune selection is complete or very nearly so
before beginning her next famously crisp and clear walkthrough.
To be sure, Sue's teaching is highly effective and fast in and of
itself. But what might be less readily apparent, yet strikes me as
very important, is that the musicians are ready and eager when she and
the dancers are ready for them. I think this enhances the atmosphere
of fun and helps to create an experience of a brisk, energetic pace
even though a fair amount of "chat time" may have preceded the
walk-through.
Even with pick-up bands possessing no pre-planned medleys or even a
common tune list, I've seen Sue pull this off such that no one in the
band feels pressured or rushed, yet the programme feels brisk and
energetic.
David
30 May
30 May
11:04 a.m.
That is what I ended up doing. As soon as one dance ended, I moved over
to the fiddler, showed him the card, told him what I was thinking in
order to give him the maximum amount of time to work on selecting tunes.
Of course calling dances like Chorus Jig makes tune selection a little
easier... 8^) In the end, I didn't keep the dancers waiting much after
the walkthrough.
Chris
Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:
One thing you could try - which would work for some
fiddlers and not
at all for
others - is to, just as soon as the applause dies down for the last
dance, hand
him the card you're going to call the next dance from. (Or, as someone
else
suggested, start discussing the character of the tune you want.) Then
the band
can work on tune choices even before you start teaching.
6:16 a.m.
bands that play together regularly ought not to take too long to choose
tunes. bands that don't (such as monday night at the scout house) need more
time. everybody has good nights and bad nights.
from my point of view as a teacher/caller, i know that dancers do much
better (especially newer dancers) if the dance starts immediately after the
walk-thru. the longer they stand around, the more they forget about the
dance.
before the dance, i usually try to talk to bands about my thoughts on
timing, and they are almost universally cooperative when i explain my goals
and reasons.
it's my job as a caller to cooperate, too. one thing that i have found
useful is to give the band a list of what i might ask for during the evening
so they have time to think (at least a little) during sound check, etc. the
list might be something like this:
1. well-phrased reel
2. smooth driving reels
3. happy/bouncy jigs
4. smooth/sleazy jigs
5. something for a square dance
etc etc etc.
if i can give them an idea of what order i might want these in (though it
almost always changes!), that's useful, too.
and it's not that the band doesn't know what i want (i mean, really - they
know what's needed for the dance!), but having a list defines the caller's
needs in a way that can be quickly and easily understood and dealt with by
the band. if i just tell them verbally more than one dance ahead, they can
forget what i said just as easily as the dancers who are standing around can
forget the dance. heck, *i* can forget what i said!
sometimes the dancers line up really fast and only want one walk-thru.
sometimes a string breaks. sometimes the band really just can't decide on
the perfect set. for these reasons and others, maintaining the pace of the
dance at a tempo that works for everyone can be a challenge! it's been
interesting hearing everyone's thought on this.
barb
----Original Message Follows----
From: Chris Weiler <chris.weiler(a)weirdtable.org>
Reply-To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
To: Shared Weight <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: [Callers] slow down...
Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 06:57:01 -0400
...Before we started the 2nd to last dance
of the first half, and I was waiting for the band to be ready to start
the music, the fiddler snaps at me that I'm teaching too fast and it's
much to stressful for choosing tunes!...
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7 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing -
barb kirchner -
Chris Weiler -
David A. Kaynor -
Jeffrey Petrovitch -
Michael Barraclough -
Peter Amidon