Also in my area it is common to see w-w, m-m couples, and even w-m couples dancing reversed roles. I often say that "we never confuse sex with gender". This elicits a smile, and makes the point that roles vary. Rich ----- Reply message ----- From: "Perry Shafran" <pshaf(a)yahoo.com> To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net> Subject: [Callers] gender Date: Wed, Jan 2, 2013 11:12 am There are several issues here.  One is the terminology that is used to differentiate the two dance roles and second, whether we will ever move contra dancing to a completely gender-free system. I think that we all have to understand that everyone has their own comfort zone.  Some people do NOT want to dance with a same-gendered person no matter how much you prod them, shame them, or even force them to do so.   Some are willing to try it from time to time, others enjoy it a lot, and others want to make all contra dances completely gender free regardless of whether or not it will chase some members from the community.  It is a strong uphill battle to at least move from a heteronormative way of thinking.  Just recently it was suggested that the way to get someone to contra dance (a man) was to tell him that a new woman will be thrown into his arms every 30 seconds.  Reason being that most people are heterosexual and might be drawn to dance thinking he's going to dance with women.  I suggested that this was a bad idea due to the fact that in most dances you'll see men dancing with men, women dancing with women, and people switching roles.  I think that the best compromise is to continue with the gents/ladies terminology, but emphasize that these are merely titles of traditional roles, but anyone can play them regardless of physical gender.  That is what I say in my workshops, and it's usually generally understood.  Any new terminology that you use will force people to translate which means "man" and which means "woman".   However, I do understand the baggage that these gender-loaded terms do bring.   Perry ________________________________ From: JoLaine Jones-Pokorney <jolaine(a)gmail.com> To: callers(a)sharedweight.net; callers-request(a)sharedweight.net Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 9:23 AM Subject: [Callers] gender In reply to Read who said "When gendered terms are used, people are more likely to sort themselves by gender. Newcomers are unlikely to even consider the possibility of not doing so." I disagree.  When I teach the introductory workshop I say, "You will see women dancing the men's role and men dancing the women's role."  They see this happening immediately, even in the introductory workshop.  In our community, men dancing the women's role is less common, but it will happen at least once at each dance so newcomers are seeing it. We often get new women who want to dance the men's role so that they can dance with their women friends that they came with.  Of course this isn't a great plan since they're all newbies, but my point is that they don't hesitate to switch roles. I find that the long-time contra dancers are often the ones who are less willing.  At a dance just a few days ago, I asked a woman to dance.  Right beside us were two men dancing together.  She declared that it was silly for two men to dance together when there were women available to dance with.  Another time I asked a woman to dance and she said she would if she couldn't find a man to dance with.  Another time I was lined up with my woman partner when two men came running over and declared "We know you'd rather dance with us!" and one of them grabbed my partner away and the other one grabbed me.  These are long time dancers who are operating under the notion that a couple equals one man and one woman and anything else is only to be tolerated if the ideal cannot be had. So perhaps a non-gendered term would help the long-time dancers more than the new dancers!  I notice that in this conversation thread - no one has actually proposed another option.  I've thought it ought to be something totally random like "blue" and "yellow" but a shift that drastic just wouldn't happen I don't think. I'm reminded of the time I was asked to call a gender-free dance where where they were using "bands and bares."  I spent a tremendous amount of time practicing calling bands and bares and getting dances I felt comfortable calling that way.  IN the introductory workshop, I was passing out bandanas for the bands and one man was asking his friend what I meant by the "bands."  She said to him - "She means the mens part."  I thought why did I just bother to learn bare and band when they're just thinking women and men? -- JoLaine Jones-Pokorney "We are as gods and might as well get good at it!" - Stewart Brand _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)sharedweight.net http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)sharedweight.net http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers