11 Sep
2009
11 Sep
'09
10:12 a.m.
Three thoughts, or parts thereof:
1. Dancers might benefit from a mention in the beginner workshops that they
should not be too surprised if the person they are to do a move with is of
the unexpected gender, that it's just done for fun and is okay. Forewarned
is forearmed. New dancers might think we're strange, but they won't have to
panic and think they've done something wrong. Maybe they'll even laugh as
they get the joke.
2. All respect to Chris Ricciotti's wonderful treatment of gender-free
calling, I still wish we could find something other than "bands and bares".
If it's the local custom, I'd wear armbands, but I really would rather just
dance the other role without worrying about whether I was dressed right.
Positional dancing really isn't all that hard, so all we really need is
better words to describe the positions. If everyone was bilingual (English
and Contra) we could use the English Country Dance terms "partner, neighbor,
and corner". Those terms pretty much define everyone in the set without
using gender. We'd just have to figure out whether we want "first corners"
to be the *"*position at the time of the call", or the "people who were
first corners when the set was formed", as in English. Either way, the pesky
"ladies chain" would simply be "second (or first ) corners chain."
3. In the meantime, however, I prefer to keep the regular terms, men (or
gents) and ladies. But I sure like the square dance terms "boy" and
"girl"
because of the nice plosive consonant at the beginning of the words, making
them easy to distinguish in an echoey hall.
M
E
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Jack Mitchell <jamitch3(a)mindspring.com>wrote;wrote:
One other thing I had thought about doing in a
workshop is to have a
few people in each line with a red ball cap or a particular shirt or
some other identifying mark, and challenge folks in the workshop to
make sure that they're not swapping when they get to those particular
people in the line. At regular dances, I have particular local dancers
that I know don't react well to switching parts -- mostly because it
confuses them -- and I try to switch back when I see them coming. I
also attempt (mostly successfully) to make sure that I don't switch
parts when one of the folks in the next couple is a new dancer. The
partner swing is a nice time to look ahead to see who the next couple
is and quickly switch back if needed.
Jack
At 09:36 AM 9/11/2009, you wrote:
Following up on Mark Galipeau's note:
In a workshop, it may be good to offer a little context on when
gender-role-swapping is appropriate (or inappropriate). For example,
at most
dance weekends your neighbors will welcome or at least understand.
At many
monthly dances, there are neighbors who may become confused either
because
they are new, rigidly devoted to traditional gender roles, or any
number of
other reasons. Some may even try to correct us (if they don't know
us).
Before swapping, I look ahead in the line to be sure that our next
neighbors
will be part of the "game" and not put off by it.
(Mark indicates the idea of there being a time and a place for this,
I
merely offer an additional tip).
--Jerome
--
For the good are always the merry,
Save by an evil chance,
And the merry love the fiddle
And the merry love to dance. ~ William Butler Yeats
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 15:27:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Galipeau <red72impala(a)yahoo.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] Gender Swapping
Message-ID: <964380.63567.qm(a)web83604.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
If the group is alert, what my dance partners and I occasionally
enjoy, is
memorizing both roles in the dance, then each
iteration when there
is a
swing your partner, we swap gender roles.
ie: first swing I lead, then the next time we come back to swing
my partner
immediately takes the lead role and swings me.?
Some dances are
challenging
and if the grey matter is slow, or it is late in
the evening this
can really
snafu the line.
?
Chris Ricciotti has a great web resouce on Gender Free Contra on
this web
site.
[1]http://www.lcfd.org/Articles/GFManual/index.html
?
Mark Galipeau
Queer Contra Dancer
We swing both ways, and then some.
--
Jerome Grisanti
660-528-0858
[2]http://www.jeromegrisanti.com
For the good are always the merry,
Save by an evil chance,
And the merry love the fiddle
And the merry love to dance. ~ William Butler Yeats
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
[3]http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
References
1. http://www.lcfd.org/Articles/GFManual/index.html
2. http://www.jeromegrisanti.com/
3. http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
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http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
11 Sep
11 Sep
3:47 p.m.
New subject: Gender Swapping - When?
Martha wrote:
1. Dancers might benefit from a mention in the
beginner workshops that they
should not be too surprised if the person they are to do a move with is of
the unexpected gender, that it's just done for fun and is okay. Forewarned
is forearmed. New dancers might think we're strange, but they won't have to
panic and think they've done something wrong. Maybe they'll even laugh as
they get the joke.
As I say in my other post, it's going to happen without any playful swapping
attempt if two same-sex people dance together rather than sit out. (Which
happens pretty frequently, especially in English.)
2. All respect to Chris Ricciotti's wonderful
treatment of gender-free
calling, I still wish we could find something other than "bands and bares".
This is traditionally the point in the discussion where I'd suggest "shirts and
skins."
If it's the local custom, I'd wear armbands,
but I really would rather just
dance the other role without worrying about whether I was dressed right.
I'm with you, and so is, eg "Heather and Rose" in Oregon and "Triangle
Country
Dancers" in North Carolina. But I think that train has probably left the
station on self-consciously gender-free contra dancing.
Positional dancing really isn't all that hard, so
all we really need is
better words to describe the positions. If everyone was bilingual (English
and Contra) we could use the English Country Dance terms "partner, neighbor,
and corner". Those terms pretty much define everyone in the set without
using gender. We'd just have to figure out whether we want "first corners"
to be the *"*position at the time of the call", or the "people who were
first corners when the set was formed", as in English. Either way, the pesky
"ladies chain" would simply be "second (or first ) corners chain."
H&R use "first diagonals", "second diagonals", "right
file", "left file",
neighbor, reserving "corner" when you're turning contra corners, and that
pretty much covers it. (In a square formation, "first diagonals" are the
left-hand person in each couple; there's a rationale for that, but I don't
remember what it is.) The "left file" and "right file" seem to be
official
terminology which doesn't get used that much; you usually end up saying
"clock"
and "window" or "hill" and "porch" or some other
geographical landmark, because
not everybody can easily sort out that they're a left file person when they're
now standing the in right file, and when you say something like "left file
people turn left hand with neighbor and turn single right shoulder to face
partner; four changes of rights and lefts" there's enough confusion of
direction and identification to mess up many people.
3. In the meantime, however, I prefer to keep the
regular terms, men (or
gents) and ladies. But I sure like the square dance terms "boy" and
"girl"
because of the nice plosive consonant at the beginning of the words, making
them easy to distinguish in an echoey hall.
There turn out to be advantages of concision and inclusiveness in using
positional terminology unobtrusively even in "gents" and "ladies"
situations.
"First corners turn two hands" gives equal agency to first gent and second
lady, might produce a better turn with both engaged than with her passively
being acted upon, and has fewer syllabes than "First man turns second lady two
hands." It's possible to do a whole evening of English and have nobody
notice that the calling was gender-role-free.
-- Alan
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Jack Mitchell
<jamitch3(a)mindspring.com>wrote;wrote:
> One other thing I had thought about doing in a
workshop is to have a
> few people in each line with a red ball cap or a particular shirt or
> some other identifying mark, and challenge folks in the workshop to
> make sure that they're not swapping when they get to those particular
> people in the line. At regular dances, I have particular local dancers
> that I know don't react well to switching parts -- mostly because it
> confuses them -- and I try to switch back when I see them coming. I
> also attempt (mostly successfully) to make sure that I don't switch
> parts when one of the folks in the next couple is a new dancer. The
> partner swing is a nice time to look ahead to see who the next couple
> is and quickly switch back if needed.
> Jack
> At 09:36 AM 9/11/2009, you wrote:
>
> Following up on Mark Galipeau's note:
> In a workshop, it may be good to offer a little context on when
> gender-role-swapping is appropriate (or inappropriate). For example,
> at most
> dance weekends your neighbors will welcome or at least understand.
> At many
> monthly dances, there are neighbors who may become confused either
> because
> they are new, rigidly devoted to traditional gender roles, or any
> number of
> other reasons. Some may even try to correct us (if they don't know
> us).
> Before swapping, I look ahead in the line to be sure that our next
> neighbors
> will be part of the "game" and not put off by it.
> (Mark indicates the idea of there being a time and a place for this,
> I
> merely offer an additional tip).
> --Jerome
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 15:27:15 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Mark Galipeau <red72impala(a)yahoo.com>
> > To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Gender Swapping
> > Message-ID: <964380.63567.qm(a)web83604.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > If the group is alert, what my dance partners and I occasionally
> enjoy, is
> > memorizing both roles in the dance, then each iteration when there
> is a
> > swing your partner, we swap gender roles.
> > ie: first swing I lead, then the next time we come back to swing
> my partner
> > immediately takes the lead role and swings me.? Some dances are
> challenging
> > and if the grey matter is slow, or it is late in the evening this
> can really
> > snafu the line.
> > ?
> > Chris Ricciotti has a great web resouce on Gender Free Contra on
> this web
> > site.
> > [1]http://www.lcfd.org/Articles/GFManual/index.html
> > ?
> > Mark Galipeau
> > Queer Contra Dancer
> > We swing both ways, and then some.
> >
> >
> >
> --
> Jerome Grisanti
> 660-528-0858
> [2]http://www.jeromegrisanti.com
> For the good are always the merry,
> Save by an evil chance,
> And the merry love the fiddle
> And the merry love to dance. ~ William Butler Yeats
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
> [3]http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>
> References
>
> 1. http://www.lcfd.org/Articles/GFManual/index.html
> 2. http://www.jeromegrisanti.com/
> 3. http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>
--
For the good are always the merry,
Save by an evil chance,
And the merry love the fiddle
And the merry love to dance. ~ William Butler Yeats
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
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http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
--
===============================================================================
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Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056
Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025
===============================================================================
13 Sep
13 Sep
12:22 p.m.
New subject: Gender Swapping - When?
Hmmmm.
It is not a joke to laugh at, as you say.
I have to tell you as a gay man dancing in recently at a Sacramento, California contra,
the caller on mike told the whole hall that my male partner and I didn't have to dance
together because there were plenty of women sitting on the side.
At Glen Echo this summer I asked 10 men to dance and was refused by 9 of them. All of the
previous 9 were to be seen in the line dancing immediately after I asked.
Most callers say "you can dance with who ever you want to", ie same sex couples,
yet in practice, homophobia exists and many male dancers are freaked out by seeing me come
to them for a swing, experienced or not. Don't say that to the audience if your crowd
is homophobic. It is very hypocritical and just sets up your hall for an awkward moment.
(This could spin of into gender balance discussion at camps.)
Our queer contra in the San Francisco Bay Area had over 80 dancers last night. The
previous night the BACDS dance held it's last and final dance at the same hall because
they don't get enough dancers to pay the rent...I think that is very telling.
Martha wrote
, that it's just done for fun and is okay. Forewarned is forearmed. New dancers might
think we're strange, but they won't have to panic and think they've done
something wrong. Maybe they'll even laugh as they get the joke.
2:42 p.m.
New subject: Gender Swapping - When?
Thanks, Mark for this.
The "joke" is not that you're dancing with someone of the same sex, of
course, but that you are momentarily surprised when your expectations are
not met. Then you figure out that it's okay, and you relax, you laugh. It's
simply the element of surprise - plus the realization that it's okay. If you
were surprised, but you thought it wasn't okay, you'd be frightened, not
amused.
But you are right about what you said. Homophobia is not funny.
I was pretty shocked, on a survey we sent out after our English-American
dance weekend last week, that one person complained about our "gay-themed"
dances and wanted us to announce them beforehand, so that he could sit them
out. Even though he described what he meant (guy swings and a "bait and
switch" gypsy to a two-hand-turn with a neighbor, who, in ECD is likely to
be your same-gender person), I could not see how any dance move is, well,
sexual, unless you yourself make it be. Heck, in the right hands, a
down-the-hall-and-back can give you a thrill. But even a gypsy is just
friendly, or it's funny, or it's a girl-power moment, or it's sisterly or
brotherly, or it's none of these, it's just a walk around your neighbor
facing in. So I didn't "get" the complaint and have no idea what to do with
it other than tuck it away in the "go figure" box.
As a heterosexual person who delights in her gay friends (my husband and I
took classes with, and joined, our local gay and lesbian square dance group,
so we are certified gay square dancers) I have to say that I am only just
starting to learn to be careful on behalf of my gay and lesbian friends, and
to see the homophobia I had just assumed *could not* be there. We're *
contradancers*, for goodness sake. We're the black sheep of our families. We
were the geeks and nerds in high school, lots of us. Who are we not to be
accepting?
M
E
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Mark Galipeau <red72impala(a)yahoo.com>wrote;wrote:
Hmmmm.
It is not a joke to laugh at, as you say.
I have to tell you as a gay man dancing in recently at a Sacramento,
California contra, the caller on mike told the whole hall that my male
partner and I didn't have to dance together because there were plenty of
women sitting on the side.
At Glen Echo this summer I asked 10 men to dance and was refused by 9 of
them. All of the previous 9 were to be seen in the line dancing immediately
after I asked.
Most callers say "you can dance with who ever you want to", ie same sex
couples, yet in practice, homophobia exists and many male dancers are
freaked out by seeing me come to them for a swing, experienced or not.
Don't say that to the audience if your crowd is homophobic. It is very
hypocritical and just sets up your hall for an awkward moment.
(This could spin of into gender balance discussion at camps.)
Our queer contra in the San Francisco Bay Area had over 80 dancers last
night. The previous night the BACDS dance held it's last and final dance at
the same hall because they don't get enough dancers to pay the rent...I
think that is very telling.
Martha wrote
, that it's just done for fun and is okay. Forewarned is forearmed. New
dancers might think we're strange, but they won't have to panic and think
they've done something wrong. Maybe they'll even laugh as they get the joke.
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
--
For the good are always the merry,
Save by an evil chance,
And the merry love the fiddle
And the merry love to dance. ~ William Butler Yeats
7:03 p.m.
New subject: Gender Swapping - When?
Martha Edwards wrote:
Even though he described what he meant (guy swings and a "bait and
switch" gypsy to a two-hand-turn with a neighbor, who, in ECD is
likely to be your same-gender person), I could not see how any dance
move is, well, sexual, unless you yourself make it be. Heck, in the
right hands, a down-the-hall-and-back can give you a thrill. But
even a gypsy is just friendly, or it's funny, or it's a girl-power
moment, or it's sisterly or brotherly, or it's none of these, it's
just a walk around your neighbor facing in. So I didn't "get" the
complaint and have no idea what to do with it other than tuck it
away in the "go figure" box.
In normal american culture, looking someone directly in the eyes for
more than a fraction of a second is very rare. When it does happen,
it's generally between lovers. In a swing or gypsy, you have several
times that much direct eye contact, and it's generally not with a
lover, so it's weird. I would say it is, from a normal american
viewpoint, 'sexual', even without someone choosing to make it so.
As contra daners, we've mostly learned not to think of it that way.
Mostly. But the sexual interpretation and connotations are still
present. Imagine a man gypsing with a young girl. If the man stared
directly into her eyes the whole time, as the figure entails and would
be standard with an older partner, contra dancers would widely
percieve this as somewhat creepy because it would be seen as partly or
possibly sexual.
Also in our culture there's a wide range of variation in who it is
acceptible to be sexual with and how much. Factors include:
- age (more difference in age, less acceptable)
- marital status (married to someone else, less, married to each
other, more)
- gender (Opposite gender more acceptable. If same gender, female is
more acceptable)
- ...
Note that I'm not taking a position here, just trying to describe the
culture. But I get the complaint: the unhappy male dancer did want to
do something generally percieved as somewhat sexual with someone
generally percieved as inappropriate for him to be sexual with.
I don't agree with the complaint; I think that if he paid attention he
would realize that in this group the eye contact did not indicate as
high amount of sexual involvement as he thought it did. The complaint
makes sense, though.
Jeff
14 Sep
14 Sep
12:18 a.m.
New subject: Gender Swapping - When?
Interesting. I like this way of thinking about it - observing how we do
behave rather than prescribing how we should behave.
But I note that the complaint on the survey was for a swing *and *a two-hand
turn. The gypsy, because it was with a partner of the opposite sex, was not
part of the complaint - the complaint was about breaking off the gypsy with
an opposite sex partner to do a two-hand turn with a same-sex neighbor. But
goodness, if a two-hand turn requires uncomfortably "sexual" eye contact,
then so does an allemande. Pretty soon we have to post a note at the door:
"Warning, you may have to dance with all of the other people in your set,
and they may look at you while they are dancing. It is recommended that you
do not look back if it will make you uncomfortable."
But aside from the absurdity of taking offense at a dance move (as opposed
to a person), this discussion does help explain something I've long wondered
about. What is it that makes a person "creepy"? What you said does seem to
describe it - eye contact that lasts too long between "unacceptable"
partners. Odd that such a simple act could engender such strong negative
emotions. Odder still that the same act, i.e., eye contact, is our way of
showing friendship and acceptance... What a difference a millisecond makes!
How do we ever get it right?
M
E
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 7:03 PM, Jeff Kaufman <jeff(a)alum.swarthmore.edu>wrote;wrote:
Martha Edwards wrote:
--
For the good are always the merry,
Save by an evil chance,
And the merry love the fiddle
And the merry love to dance. ~ William Butler Yeats
Even though he described what he meant (guy swings and a "bait and
switch" gypsy to a two-hand-turn with a neighbor, who, in ECD is
likely to be your same-gender person), I could not see how any dance
move is, well, sexual, unless you yourself make it be. Heck, in the
right hands, a down-the-hall-and-back can give you a thrill. But
even a gypsy is just friendly, or it's funny, or it's a girl-power
moment, or it's sisterly or brotherly, or it's none of these, it's
just a walk around your neighbor facing in. So I didn't "get" the
complaint and have no idea what to do with it other than tuck it
away in the "go figure" box.
In normal american culture, looking someone directly in the eyes for
more than a fraction of a second is very rare. When it does happen,
it's generally between lovers. In a swing or gypsy, you have several
times that much direct eye contact, and it's generally not with a
lover, so it's weird. I would say it is, from a normal american
viewpoint, 'sexual', even without someone choosing to make it so.
As contra daners, we've mostly learned not to think of it that way.
Mostly. But the sexual interpretation and connotations are still
present. Imagine a man gypsing with a young girl. If the man stared
directly into her eyes the whole time, as the figure entails and would
be standard with an older partner, contra dancers would widely
percieve this as somewhat creepy because it would be seen as partly or
possibly sexual.
Also in our culture there's a wide range of variation in who it is
acceptible to be sexual with and how much. Factors include:
- age (more difference in age, less acceptable)
- marital status (married to someone else, less, married to each
other, more)
- gender (Opposite gender more acceptable. If same gender, female is
more acceptable)
- ...
Note that I'm not taking a position here, just trying to describe the
culture. But I get the complaint: the unhappy male dancer did want to
do something generally percieved as somewhat sexual with someone
generally percieved as inappropriate for him to be sexual with.
I don't agree with the complaint; I think that if he paid attention he
would realize that in this group the eye contact did not indicate as
high amount of sexual involvement as he thought it did. The complaint
makes sense, though.
Jeff
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5 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
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Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing -
Jeff Kaufman -
Mark Galipeau -
Martha Edwards