21 Jan
2016
21 Jan
'16
6:52 p.m.
Alan Winston asked (replying to Janet Bertog):
Where did you find a dance description for Flowers of
Edinburgh in the 1500s?
I, too, am curious. I suspect that Alan is asking this question,
as I am, more from an interest in the history of dancing and dance
terminology than for the purpose of deciding what terminology to
use in the future. (To be clear, I believe that both topics--the
history and what to do now--are entirely appropriate for this
list.) Please supply a reference if you have one.
Speaking as someone who claims no formal training or other
qualification as a dance historian, but who is nonetheless an
interested dabbler in dance history, I think that a genuine
16th-century source using "gip" (or
"gyp"/"gipsy"/"gypsy"/
"jib"/,,,) as the name of a dance figure would be quite an
interesting find, especially if the source also included some
clue about what the term actually meant at that time. On the
other hand, a 20th-century description of a dance with a "gip"
(or "half gip/gyp/gipsy/..." or "whole gip/...") together with
a vague allusion to a dance of the same title having existed
in the 16th century wouldn't be so exciting.
With a little searching, I turned up various descriptions of
Bampton morris dancing that list half gip[/gyp/...] and whole
gip as common figures and "Flowers of Edinburgh" as one of the
specific dances. Here's just one example:
http://www.tvmm.org.uk/Notes/Bampton.htm
And here's a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC2QtfnKrB8
Note the whole gips starting about 1:37.
My searching also turned up many references to an RSCDS-style
Scottish dance titled "Flowers of Edinburgh." This site
http://www.scottish-country-dancing-dictionary.com/video/flowers-of-edinbur…
has half a dozen videos of the dance being done by different
groups, plus an animation and a link to dance instructions.
As you can see, this "Flowers of Edinburgh" includes no
"gypsy" figure and bears practically no resemblance to the
morris dance of the same name except that both are done in
some kind of longways set.
I also turned English Country Dance versions, including these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48y_4FU9EFU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWMID3ExAas
The first one lightly resembles the RSCDS version in that it
has a sort of "swing and change" in B2 where the RSCDS version
has a poussette. The one version in the second video is
yet different.
In the absence of further evidence, a 16th-century dance
called "Flowers of Edinburgh", if such existed, might, for
all I knew, have been wildly different from all the versions
I've cited above.
On Jan 21, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Janet Bertog via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
The equivalent of the Welsh word gip is glance or
gaze.
That does suggest a tempting etymology for the dance figure.
But, as we know, tempting etymologies sometimes turn out to
lack support (as, for example, in the case of "a la main"
for "allemande"). So, again, if you know of sources from
even as late as the 19th century connecting the Welsh "gip",
meaning glance/gaze with the similarly named morris dance
figure or with "gypsy" as used in ECD and (more recently)
contra dancing, please share the details.
Again, I'm asking out of historical interest, not making
any claim about how the history should or shouldn't affect
callers' choices about terminology today.
Thanks.
--Jim
> On Jan 21, 2016, at 11:30 AM, Alan Winston via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 1/21/16 10:48 AM, Janet Bertog via Callers wrote:
>> This was my original suggestion (see discussion in November). Then I found gip in
Welsh, which seems to fit better except foe one thing. The earliest dance I can find with
a gip/gypsy is Flowers of Edinburg from Scotland in the 1500s (note the date precedes the
use of the word Gypsy by the English). It doesn't matter though. To many, the word is
a slur in one context to some people and so should not be used, no matter what the
origin.
>>
Where did you find a dance description for Flowers of
Edinburgh in the 1500s?
>
> -- Alan
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
21 Jan
21 Jan
7:35 p.m.
New subject: That g word
I'm not ignoring you guys (well, most of you anyway), I just got busy and I
was a bad student again and didn't write down my reference so I will have
to find it again. Right now I have glue in my eye, so it will have to
wait.
I also did not hear any more back from Carol, so I will report on what I
did get from her and her colleague later this evening.
Not that any of it matters, people have already made up their mind and, in
the midwest at least, it sounds like we are going to have people gyrating
all over the floor.
Janet
On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 6:52 PM, James Saxe <jim.saxe(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Alan Winston asked (replying to Janet Bertog):
Where did you find a dance description for
Flowers of Edinburgh in the
1500s?
I, too, am curious. I suspect that Alan is asking this question,
as I am, more from an interest in the history of dancing and dance
terminology than for the purpose of deciding what terminology to
use in the future. (To be clear, I believe that both topics--the
history and what to do now--are entirely appropriate for this
list.) Please supply a reference if you have one.
Speaking as someone who claims no formal training or other
qualification as a dance historian, but who is nonetheless an
interested dabbler in dance history, I think that a genuine
16th-century source using "gip" (or
"gyp"/"gipsy"/"gypsy"/
"jib"/,,,) as the name of a dance figure would be quite an
interesting find, especially if the source also included some
clue about what the term actually meant at that time. On the
other hand, a 20th-century description of a dance with a "gip"
(or "half gip/gyp/gipsy/..." or "whole gip/...") together with
a vague allusion to a dance of the same title having existed
in the 16th century wouldn't be so exciting.
With a little searching, I turned up various descriptions of
Bampton morris dancing that list half gip[/gyp/...] and whole
gip as common figures and "Flowers of Edinburgh" as one of the
specific dances. Here's just one example:
http://www.tvmm.org.uk/Notes/Bampton.htm
And here's a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC2QtfnKrB8
Note the whole gips starting about 1:37.
My searching also turned up many references to an RSCDS-style
Scottish dance titled "Flowers of Edinburgh." This site
http://www.scottish-country-dancing-dictionary.com/video/flowers-of-edinbur…
has half a dozen videos of the dance being done by different
groups, plus an animation and a link to dance instructions.
As you can see, this "Flowers of Edinburgh" includes no
"gypsy" figure and bears practically no resemblance to the
morris dance of the same name except that both are done in
some kind of longways set.
I also turned English Country Dance versions, including these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48y_4FU9EFU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWMID3ExAas
The first one lightly resembles the RSCDS version in that it
has a sort of "swing and change" in B2 where the RSCDS version
has a poussette. The one version in the second video is
yet different.
In the absence of further evidence, a 16th-century dance
called "Flowers of Edinburgh", if such existed, might, for
all I knew, have been wildly different from all the versions
I've cited above.
On Jan 21, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Janet Bertog via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
The equivalent of the Welsh word gip is glance or
gaze.
That does suggest a tempting etymology for the dance figure.
But, as we know, tempting etymologies sometimes turn out to
lack support (as, for example, in the case of "a la main"
for "allemande"). So, again, if you know of sources from
even as late as the 19th century connecting the Welsh "gip",
meaning glance/gaze with the similarly named morris dance
figure or with "gypsy" as used in ECD and (more recently)
contra dancing, please share the details.
Again, I'm asking out of historical interest, not making
any claim about how the history should or shouldn't affect
callers' choices about terminology today.
Thanks.
--Jim
On Jan 21, 2016, at 11:30 AM, Alan Winston via
Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
On 1/21/16 10:48 AM, Janet Bertog via Callers wrote:
> This was my original suggestion (see discussion in November). Then I
found gip
in Welsh, which seems to fit better except foe one thing. The
earliest dance I can find with a gip/gypsy is Flowers of Edinburg from
Scotland in the 1500s (note the date precedes the use of the word Gypsy by
the English). It doesn't matter though. To many, the word is a slur in one
context to some people and so should not be used, no matter what the origin.
>>
Where did you find a dance description for
Flowers of Edinburgh in the
1500s?
-- Alan
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
8:03 p.m.
New subject: That g word
Whew, it’s been a while since the earlier iteration of this conversation and my mind is
fuzzy. Does that mean that in the midwest you’ll be calling “gyre” as in “With your
partner, gyre and swing”? Or actually “gyrate”? Or…?
I tried using gyre at a dance in December, saying that it was a great new name for my
personal favorite dance move, gypsy. There were groans on the floor, but… whatever!
On Jan 21, 2016, at 7:35 PM, Janet Bertog via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I'm not ignoring you guys (well, most of you anyway), I just got busy and I was a bad
student again and didn't write down my reference so I will have to find it again.
Right now I have glue in my eye, so it will have to wait.
I also did not hear any more back from Carol, so I will report on what I did get from her
and her colleague later this evening.
Not that any of it matters, people have already made up their mind and, in the midwest at
least, it sounds like we are going to have people gyrating all over the floor.
Janet
On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 6:52 PM, James Saxe <jim.saxe(a)gmail.com
<mailto:jim.saxe@gmail.com>> wrote:
Alan Winston asked (replying to Janet Bertog):
<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>
Delia Clark
PO Box 45
Taftsville, VT 05073
Office/mobile: 802-457-2075
deliaclark8(a)gmail.com
Where did you find a dance description for
Flowers of Edinburgh in the 1500s?
I, too, am curious. I suspect that Alan is asking this question,
as I am, more from an interest in the history of dancing and dance
terminology than for the purpose of deciding what terminology to
use in the future. (To be clear, I believe that both topics--the
history and what to do now--are entirely appropriate for this
list.) Please supply a reference if you have one.
Speaking as someone who claims no formal training or other
qualification as a dance historian, but who is nonetheless an
interested dabbler in dance history, I think that a genuine
16th-century source using "gip" (or
"gyp"/"gipsy"/"gypsy"/
"jib"/,,,) as the name of a dance figure would be quite an
interesting find, especially if the source also included some
clue about what the term actually meant at that time. On the
other hand, a 20th-century description of a dance with a "gip"
(or "half gip/gyp/gipsy/..." or "whole gip/...") together with
a vague allusion to a dance of the same title having existed
in the 16th century wouldn't be so exciting.
With a little searching, I turned up various descriptions of
Bampton morris dancing that list half gip[/gyp/...] and whole
gip as common figures and "Flowers of Edinburgh" as one of the
specific dances. Here's just one example:
http://www.tvmm.org.uk/Notes/Bampton.htm
<http://www.tvmm.org.uk/Notes/Bampton.htm>
And here's a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC2QtfnKrB8
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC2QtfnKrB8>
Note the whole gips starting about 1:37.
My searching also turned up many references to an RSCDS-style
Scottish dance titled "Flowers of Edinburgh." This site
http://www.scottish-country-dancing-dictionary.com/video/flowers-of-edinbur…
<http://www.scottish-country-dancing-dictionary.com/video/flowers-of-edinburgh.html>
has half a dozen videos of the dance being done by different
groups, plus an animation and a link to dance instructions.
As you can see, this "Flowers of Edinburgh" includes no
"gypsy" figure and bears practically no resemblance to the
morris dance of the same name except that both are done in
some kind of longways set.
I also turned English Country Dance versions, including these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48y_4FU9EFU
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48y_4FU9EFU>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWMID3ExAas
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWMID3ExAas>
The first one lightly resembles the RSCDS version in that it
has a sort of "swing and change" in B2 where the RSCDS version
has a poussette. The one version in the second video is
yet different.
In the absence of further evidence, a 16th-century dance
called "Flowers of Edinburgh", if such existed, might, for
all I knew, have been wildly different from all the versions
I've cited above.
On Jan 21, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Janet Bertog via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
The equivalent of the Welsh word gip is glance or
gaze.
That does suggest a tempting etymology for the dance figure.
But, as we know, tempting etymologies sometimes turn out to
lack support (as, for example, in the case of "a la main"
for "allemande"). So, again, if you know of sources from
even as late as the 19th century connecting the Welsh "gip",
meaning glance/gaze with the similarly named morris dance
figure or with "gypsy" as used in ECD and (more recently)
contra dancing, please share the details.
Again, I'm asking out of historical interest, not making
any claim about how the history should or shouldn't affect
callers' choices about terminology today.
Thanks.
--Jim
> On Jan 21, 2016, at 11:30 AM, Alan Winston via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
wrote:
>
>
>
> On 1/21/16 10:48 AM, Janet Bertog via Callers wrote:
>> This was my original suggestion (see discussion in November). Then I found gip
in Welsh, which seems to fit better except foe one thing. The earliest dance I can find
with a gip/gypsy is Flowers of Edinburg from Scotland in the 1500s (note the date precedes
the use of the word Gypsy by the English). It doesn't matter though. To many, the word
is a slur in one context to some people and so should not be used, no matter what the
origin.
>>
Where did you find a dance description for
Flowers of Edinburgh in the 1500s?
>
> -- Alan
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net>
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
<http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net>
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
8:46 p.m.
New subject: That g word
I will NEVER be using gyre, but several of the younger callers have decided
that's what they like. I think it is a ridiculous choice for a move, but
then I am one of the hold outs that believes that words have more than one
meaning and our use of gypsy is not offensive, so why listen to me?
But, say gyre right .... it sounds like gyrate.
On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 8:03 PM, Delia Clark <deliaclark8(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Whew, it’s been a while since the earlier iteration of
this conversation
and my mind is fuzzy. Does that mean that in the midwest you’ll be calling
“gyre” as in “With your partner, gyre and swing”? Or actually “gyrate”?
Or…?
I tried using gyre at a dance in December, saying that it was a great new
name for my personal favorite dance move, gypsy. There were groans on the
floor, but… whatever!
On Jan 21, 2016, at 7:35 PM, Janet Bertog via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I'm not ignoring you guys (well, most of you anyway), I just got busy and
I was a bad student again and didn't write down my reference so I will have
to find it again. Right now I have glue in my eye, so it will have to
wait.
I also did not hear any more back from Carol, so I will report on what I
did get from her and her colleague later this evening.
Not that any of it matters, people have already made up their mind and, in
the midwest at least, it sounds like we are going to have people gyrating
all over the floor.
Janet
On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 6:52 PM, James Saxe <jim.saxe(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Alan Winston asked (replying to Janet Bertog):
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>
Delia Clark
PO Box 45
Taftsville, VT 05073
Office/mobile: 802-457-2075
deliaclark8(a)gmail.com
Where did you find a dance description for
Flowers of Edinburgh in the
1500s?
I, too, am curious. I suspect that Alan is asking this question,
as I am, more from an interest in the history of dancing and dance
terminology than for the purpose of deciding what terminology to
use in the future. (To be clear, I believe that both topics--the
history and what to do now--are entirely appropriate for this
list.) Please supply a reference if you have one.
Speaking as someone who claims no formal training or other
qualification as a dance historian, but who is nonetheless an
interested dabbler in dance history, I think that a genuine
16th-century source using "gip" (or
"gyp"/"gipsy"/"gypsy"/
"jib"/,,,) as the name of a dance figure would be quite an
interesting find, especially if the source also included some
clue about what the term actually meant at that time. On the
other hand, a 20th-century description of a dance with a "gip"
(or "half gip/gyp/gipsy/..." or "whole gip/...") together with
a vague allusion to a dance of the same title having existed
in the 16th century wouldn't be so exciting.
With a little searching, I turned up various descriptions of
Bampton morris dancing that list half gip[/gyp/...] and whole
gip as common figures and "Flowers of Edinburgh" as one of the
specific dances. Here's just one example:
http://www.tvmm.org.uk/Notes/Bampton.htm
And here's a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC2QtfnKrB8
Note the whole gips starting about 1:37.
My searching also turned up many references to an RSCDS-style
Scottish dance titled "Flowers of Edinburgh." This site
http://www.scottish-country-dancing-dictionary.com/video/flowers-of-edinbur…
has half a dozen videos of the dance being done by different
groups, plus an animation and a link to dance instructions.
As you can see, this "Flowers of Edinburgh" includes no
"gypsy" figure and bears practically no resemblance to the
morris dance of the same name except that both are done in
some kind of longways set.
I also turned English Country Dance versions, including these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48y_4FU9EFU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWMID3ExAas
The first one lightly resembles the RSCDS version in that it
has a sort of "swing and change" in B2 where the RSCDS version
has a poussette. The one version in the second video is
yet different.
In the absence of further evidence, a 16th-century dance
called "Flowers of Edinburgh", if such existed, might, for
all I knew, have been wildly different from all the versions
I've cited above.
On Jan 21, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Janet Bertog via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
The equivalent of the Welsh word gip is glance or
gaze.
That does suggest a tempting etymology for the dance figure.
But, as we know, tempting etymologies sometimes turn out to
lack support (as, for example, in the case of "a la main"
for "allemande"). So, again, if you know of sources from
even as late as the 19th century connecting the Welsh "gip",
meaning glance/gaze with the similarly named morris dance
figure or with "gypsy" as used in ECD and (more recently)
contra dancing, please share the details.
Again, I'm asking out of historical interest, not making
any claim about how the history should or shouldn't affect
callers' choices about terminology today.
Thanks.
--Jim
On Jan 21, 2016, at 11:30 AM, Alan Winston via
Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
On 1/21/16 10:48 AM, Janet Bertog via Callers wrote:
> This was my original suggestion (see discussion in November). Then I
found gip
in Welsh, which seems to fit better except foe one thing. The
earliest dance I can find with a gip/gypsy is Flowers of Edinburg from
Scotland in the 1500s (note the date precedes the use of the word Gypsy by
the English). It doesn't matter though. To many, the word is a slur in one
context to some people and so should not be used, no matter what the origin.
>>
Where did you find a dance description for
Flowers of Edinburgh in the
1500s?
-- Alan
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
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3 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
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James Saxe via Callers
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Janet Bertog via Callers