30 Jun
2013
30 Jun
'13
9:33 a.m.
Laurie said, "Also, I have talked with many who have developed, as I have, a
shoulder/neck problem. This seems to come from inexperienced dancers or
assertive regular dancers (not terribly good dancers) when they FORCE a
turn, especially at an incorrect time.
"I'd love to hear from someone how to describe to a dancer who wants to
twirl what the correct timing is - can someone give me a good way to put
this out there?"
Hi Laurie,
Unless you are running a workshop that let's you go into more
detail, then the best way is probably to drip-feed hints and tips as you
teach the dances.
= = = = = = = = = =
Regarding timing, I emphasise that, while you can do what you want
in your own time and space, on beat #1 of the next phrase you and your
partner should be in the right place and facing the right way for the next
move.
So, when there is a change of direction, don't think of a move as
being 8 beats, think of it as being 6 beats plus 2 beats to transition to
the next move. This applies to, for example:
Down the hall & turn alone
Circle left/right
Star right/left
A simple flourish on the end of a swing such as an inside or outside turn
For the inexperienced: opening out from a swing into a line or circle
If the dancers are all doing the basic transitions well on beats 7 &
8 then just remind them occasionally that a twirl on the end of a swing has
to happen on beats 7 & 8 as well. Pick a dance where the transition into
the next move is demanding and remind them to finish their flourishes on
time.
Make sure the twirler knows that they are responsible for the
twirlee's timing and positioning as well as their own, and that they should
plan ahead.
= = = = = = = = = =
Regarding force, these are some of the points I make:
(Note: although contra dancing is not about lead and follow, a flourish such
as a twirl out of a swing often is - so I use the terms leader and follower
purely as indicators of who is leading and following in a flourish.)
Rule #1: Everyone is entitled to get on the dance floor and have fun without
getting hurt.
"Dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire", so RELAX!
A strong lead is about clarity, not strength.
(As an example, I often put my hand in an allemande position and get someone
to blow on it - as their breath hits my hand I do a complete spin. People
who want to spin don't usually need any force from their partner - they are
quite capable of spinning themselves! A strong platform can be useful to
push off, but if you try to push someone into a spin you are more likely to
push them off balance then to help them.)
When you are following, remember (as one excellent teacher used to say) "It
ain't my job to drag your ass across the floor!", so, when someone leads you
into a twirl or any other flourish, send the message straight from your
fingers to your toes and follow the lead - don't fight back!
Always start with ZERO tension and build up to what you need to execute the
move.
You aren't fighting each other - you are only fighting centrifugal force.
Unlike arm-wrestling, if your hand moves nearer to your body in an
allemande, YOU LOSE!
It's dancing not wrestling!
You are responsible for your own balance.
Leaning backwards in swings or allemandes doesn't make you go faster it just
makes your partner have to waste their energy holding you up.
= = = = = = = = = =
Of course, the people you most want to listen to these tips are
probably the ones who aren't listening!
If I seem a little passionate about this subject please forgive me,
but I have had two shoulder operations as a result of dancing, and am hoping
not to need another one.
Hope that helps! :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
30 Jun
30 Jun
10:01 a.m.
New subject: Timing & Force
One addendum:
I'd like to say a word about where the twirl should happen. At least when the twirler
is not experienced, it will help the positioning at the end if by beat six, twirler. And
twirler begin to separate approximately where they intend to end so the twirler only has
to focus on providing finger contact for the unwind, and the twirler need only turn in
place instead of learning to move around the gent and twirl at the same time. As the gent
becomes better at the timing and orientation, he can try flourishes that move and/or have
more than a single twirl, but I still wouldn't do them to a new twirlee.
Cheers,
Andrea
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 30, 2013, at 10:33 AM, "John Sweeney" <info(a)contrafusion.co.uk>
wrote:
Laurie said, "Also, I have talked with many who
have developed, as I have, a
shoulder/neck problem. This seems to come from inexperienced dancers or
assertive regular dancers (not terribly good dancers) when they FORCE a
turn, especially at an incorrect time.
"I'd love to hear from someone how to describe to a dancer who wants to
twirl what the correct timing is - can someone give me a good way to put
this out there?"
Hi Laurie,
Unless you are running a workshop that let's you go into more
detail, then the best way is probably to drip-feed hints and tips as you
teach the dances.
= = = = = = = = = =
Regarding timing, I emphasise that, while you can do what you want
in your own time and space, on beat #1 of the next phrase you and your
partner should be in the right place and facing the right way for the next
move.
So, when there is a change of direction, don't think of a move as
being 8 beats, think of it as being 6 beats plus 2 beats to transition to
the next move. This applies to, for example:
Down the hall & turn alone
Circle left/right
Star right/left
A simple flourish on the end of a swing such as an inside or outside turn
For the inexperienced: opening out from a swing into a line or circle
If the dancers are all doing the basic transitions well on beats 7 &
8 then just remind them occasionally that a twirl on the end of a swing has
to happen on beats 7 & 8 as well. Pick a dance where the transition into
the next move is demanding and remind them to finish their flourishes on
time.
Make sure the twirler knows that they are responsible for the
twirlee's timing and positioning as well as their own, and that they should
plan ahead.
= = = = = = = = = =
Regarding force, these are some of the points I make:
(Note: although contra dancing is not about lead and follow, a flourish such
as a twirl out of a swing often is - so I use the terms leader and follower
purely as indicators of who is leading and following in a flourish.)
Rule #1: Everyone is entitled to get on the dance floor and have fun without
getting hurt.
"Dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire", so RELAX!
A strong lead is about clarity, not strength.
(As an example, I often put my hand in an allemande position and get someone
to blow on it - as their breath hits my hand I do a complete spin. People
who want to spin don't usually need any force from their partner - they are
quite capable of spinning themselves! A strong platform can be useful to
push off, but if you try to push someone into a spin you are more likely to
push them off balance then to help them.)
When you are following, remember (as one excellent teacher used to say) "It
ain't my job to drag your ass across the floor!", so, when someone leads you
into a twirl or any other flourish, send the message straight from your
fingers to your toes and follow the lead - don't fight back!
Always start with ZERO tension and build up to what you need to execute the
move.
You aren't fighting each other - you are only fighting centrifugal force.
Unlike arm-wrestling, if your hand moves nearer to your body in an
allemande, YOU LOSE!
It's dancing not wrestling!
You are responsible for your own balance.
Leaning backwards in swings or allemandes doesn't make you go faster it just
makes your partner have to waste their energy holding you up.
= = = = = = = = = =
Of course, the people you most want to listen to these tips are
probably the ones who aren't listening!
If I seem a little passionate about this subject please forgive me,
but I have had two shoulder operations as a result of dancing, and am hoping
not to need another one.
Hope that helps! :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
1 Jul
1 Jul
6:55 p.m.
New subject: Timing & Force
Must disagree about leaning backwards (resisting each other, leaning away within reason)
and swing/allemande speed. The physical shapes that spin best are cones (children's
tops), small at the bottom, wider at the top. Couple turns and pivots (in other social
dance forms like waltz), have the gent stepping almost between the woman's legs and
have the woman resisting the guy by dancing further back into his right hand than
usual...this sets up the 'wider at the top, narrow at the bottom" shape conducive
to faster smoother spins. Again, I said "within reason"....no leaning away from
the waist (the optimal form is a V not a Y). The inherent joy of a good "V" with
strong resistance (weight-giving) is what makes the buzz step swing so much more fun than
the 'walk around' swing of modern squares
________________________________
From: John Sweeney <info(a)contrafusion.co.uk>
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 3:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Timing & Force
Laurie said, "Also, I have talked with many who have developed, as I have, a
shoulder/neck problem. This seems to come from inexperienced dancers or
assertive regular dancers (not terribly good dancers) when they FORCE a
turn, especially at an incorrect time.
"I'd love to hear from someone how to describe to a dancer who wants to
twirl what the correct timing is - can someone give me a good way to put
this out there?"
Hi Laurie,
Unless you are running a workshop that let's you go into more
detail, then the best way is probably to drip-feed hints and tips as you
teach the dances.
= = = = = = = = = =
Regarding timing, I emphasise that, while you can do what you want
in your own time and space, on beat #1 of the next phrase you and your
partner should be in the right place and facing the right way for the next
move.
So, when there is a change of direction, don't think of a move as
being 8 beats, think of it as being 6 beats plus 2 beats to transition to
the next move. This applies to, for example:
Down the hall & turn alone
Circle left/right
Star right/left
A simple flourish on the end of a swing such as an inside or outside turn
For the inexperienced: opening out from a swing into a line or circle
If the dancers are all doing the basic transitions well on beats 7 &
8 then just remind them occasionally that a twirl on the end of a swing has
to happen on beats 7 & 8 as well. Pick a dance where the transition into
the next move is demanding and remind them to finish their flourishes on
time.
Make sure the twirler knows that they are responsible for the
twirlee's timing and positioning as well as their own, and that they should
plan ahead.
= = = = = = = = = =
Regarding force, these are some of the points I make:
(Note: although contra dancing is not about lead and follow, a flourish such
as a twirl out of a swing often is - so I use the terms leader and follower
purely as indicators of who is leading and following in a flourish.)
Rule #1: Everyone is entitled to get on the dance floor and have fun without
getting hurt.
"Dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire", so RELAX!
A strong lead is about clarity, not strength.
(As an example, I often put my hand in an allemande position and get someone
to blow on it - as their breath hits my hand I do a complete spin. People
who want to spin don't usually need any force from their partner - they are
quite capable of spinning themselves! A strong platform can be useful to
push off, but if you try to push someone into a spin you are more likely to
push them off balance then to help them.)
When you are following, remember (as one excellent teacher used to say) "It
ain't my job to drag your ass across the floor!", so, when someone leads you
into a twirl or any other flourish, send the message straight from your
fingers to your toes and follow the lead - don't fight back!
Always start with ZERO tension and build up to what you need to execute the
move.
You aren't fighting each other - you are only fighting centrifugal force.
Unlike arm-wrestling, if your hand moves nearer to your body in an
allemande, YOU LOSE!
It's dancing not wrestling!
You are responsible for your own balance.
Leaning backwards in swings or allemandes doesn't make you go faster it just
makes your partner have to waste their energy holding you up.
= = = = = = = = = =
Of course, the people you most want to listen to these tips are
probably the ones who aren't listening!
If I seem a little passionate about this subject please forgive me,
but I have had two shoulder operations as a result of dancing, and am hoping
not to need another one.
Hope that helps! :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/for Dancing in Kent
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
7:31 p.m.
New subject: Timing & Force
These differing views of swing posture remind me of the old question of whether galloping
horses ever had all four legs off the ground at once--a question settled by the innovative
photographer Muybridge. I wonder if anyone has made slo-mo video of experienced couples
swinging. It would be interesting to check our impressions and intuitions with some video
that we can view and analyze slowly. My impression is that expert contra dance swingers
have their weight over their own feet while swinging and are not in a V at all. But
I'm willing to find out I'm completely wrong!
Richard
On Jul 1, 2013, at 2:55 PM, jean francis wrote:
Must disagree about leaning backwards (resisting each
other, leaning away within reason) and swing/allemande speed. The physical shapes that
spin best are cones (children's tops), small at the bottom, wider at the top. Couple
turns and pivots (in other social dance forms like waltz), have the gent stepping almost
between the woman's legs and have the woman resisting the guy by dancing further back
into his right hand than usual...this sets up the 'wider at the top, narrow at the
bottom" shape conducive to faster smoother spins. Again, I said "within
reason"....no leaning away from the waist (the optimal form is a V not a Y). The
inherent joy of a good "V" with strong resistance (weight-giving) is what makes
the buzz step swing so much more fun than the 'walk around' swing of modern
squares
________________________________
From: John Sweeney <info(a)contrafusion.co.uk>
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 3:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Timing & Force
Laurie said, "Also, I have talked with many who have developed, as I have, a
shoulder/neck problem. This seems to come from inexperienced dancers or
assertive regular dancers (not terribly good dancers) when they FORCE a
turn, especially at an incorrect time.
"I'd love to hear from someone how to describe to a dancer who wants to
twirl what the correct timing is - can someone give me a good way to put
this out there?"
Hi Laurie,
Unless you are running a workshop that let's you go into more
detail, then the best way is probably to drip-feed hints and tips as you
teach the dances.
= = = = = = = = = =
Regarding timing, I emphasise that, while you can do what you want
in your own time and space, on beat #1 of the next phrase you and your
partner should be in the right place and facing the right way for the next
move.
So, when there is a change of direction, don't think of a move as
being 8 beats, think of it as being 6 beats plus 2 beats to transition to
the next move. This applies to, for example:
Down the hall & turn alone
Circle left/right
Star right/left
A simple flourish on the end of a swing such as an inside or outside turn
For the inexperienced: opening out from a swing into a line or circle
If the dancers are all doing the basic transitions well on beats 7 &
8 then just remind them occasionally that a twirl on the end of a swing has
to happen on beats 7 & 8 as well. Pick a dance where the transition into
the next move is demanding and remind them to finish their flourishes on
time.
Make sure the twirler knows that they are responsible for the
twirlee's timing and positioning as well as their own, and that they should
plan ahead.
= = = = = = = = = =
Regarding force, these are some of the points I make:
(Note: although contra dancing is not about lead and follow, a flourish such
as a twirl out of a swing often is - so I use the terms leader and follower
purely as indicators of who is leading and following in a flourish.)
Rule #1: Everyone is entitled to get on the dance floor and have fun without
getting hurt.
"Dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire", so RELAX!
A strong lead is about clarity, not strength.
(As an example, I often put my hand in an allemande position and get someone
to blow on it - as their breath hits my hand I do a complete spin. People
who want to spin don't usually need any force from their partner - they are
quite capable of spinning themselves! A strong platform can be useful to
push off, but if you try to push someone into a spin you are more likely to
push them off balance then to help them.)
When you are following, remember (as one excellent teacher used to say) "It
ain't my job to drag your ass across the floor!", so, when someone leads you
into a twirl or any other flourish, send the message straight from your
fingers to your toes and follow the lead - don't fight back!
Always start with ZERO tension and build up to what you need to execute the
move.
You aren't fighting each other - you are only fighting centrifugal force.
Unlike arm-wrestling, if your hand moves nearer to your body in an
allemande, YOU LOSE!
It's dancing not wrestling!
You are responsible for your own balance.
Leaning backwards in swings or allemandes doesn't make you go faster it just
makes your partner have to waste their energy holding you up.
= = = = = = = = = =
Of course, the people you most want to listen to these tips are
probably the ones who aren't listening!
If I seem a little passionate about this subject please forgive me,
but I have had two shoulder operations as a result of dancing, and am hoping
not to need another one.
Hope that helps! :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/for Dancing in Kent
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
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3 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
Andrea Nettleton -
jean francis -
John Sweeney -
Richard Fischer