7 Jan
2013
7 Jan
'13
2:36 a.m.
I haven't been following this topic of lead/follow at all but Bree's
statement really caught my eye. I'm very curious to know what it's
like to dance as a women with men who have a wide range of skills and
personalities.
Sorry if this has already been discussed...
I should set aside an evening and dance disguised as a women to
really understand what the experience is like.
Tom
I'd like to repeat the point that the terms lead/follow are implicitly
communicating to (some) male dancers that they are in charge. Not
only does
this create pressure, but I think it contributes to a growing trend
I'm
noticing at my local dance; fairly new male dancers assume I'll
happily
follow their lead and seem dismayed (even insulted) if I choose not
to. This
sets up a dynamic of conflict rather than the friendly cooperation I
consider the soul of contra dancing.
Bree Kalb
Carrboro, NC
-
7 Jan
7 Jan
6:27 a.m.
On Sun, Jan 06, 2013, Tom Hinds wrote:
I haven't been following this topic of lead/follow at all but Bree's
statement really caught my eye. I'm very curious to know what it's
like to dance as a women with men who have a wide range of skills
and personalities.
I should set aside an evening and dance disguised as a women to
really understand what the experience is like.
Unless you have experience cross-dressing (i.e. can successfully
disguise yourself), your experience will almost certainly be somewhat
different from a woman's. I definitely get treated somewhat differently
by men.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
1:45 p.m.
I've been having conversations with a lot of my female friends in the dance
community over the past 6 months over their experiences as women. I won't
make a lengthy itemization of what I've found, because I think it's
something every caller should do for themself, however, the one thought I'd
share is the one I find most disappointing:
- Women have expressed that they put up with far more crap from pushy males
than I personally would put up with had the situation be reversed; there is
a far more prevalent sense of resignation of "that's just how things are /
it's not so bad" than I had believed.
in dance,
Ron
On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Aahz Maruch <aahz(a)pobox.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 06, 2013, Tom Hinds wrote:
I haven't been following this topic of lead/follow at all but Bree's
statement really caught my eye. I'm very curious to know what it's
like to dance as a women with men who have a wide range of skills
and personalities.
I should set aside an evening and dance disguised as a women to
really understand what the experience is like.
Unless you have experience cross-dressing (i.e. can successfully
disguise yourself), your experience will almost certainly be somewhat
different from a woman's. I definitely get treated somewhat differently
by men.
2:04 p.m.
I am curious - is this seen more often in women than it is in men playing the role of the
woman? I've been the woman a number of times in dances, and I do see the pushiness of
some males - twirling me when I don't want to be twirled, even being subject to a
(small) dip one time. Generally though (at least in my home communities) I'm not
subject to this. It also doesn't SEEM like women are resigned to pushy males - most
ladies I see seem to enjoy their twirls and dips - but that could be due to the
segregation of lines that has occurred, at least at Glen Echo.
Perry
________________________________
From: Ron T Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2013 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] women's experiences
I've been having conversations with a lot of my female friends in the dance
community over the past 6 months over their experiences as women. I won't
make a lengthy itemization of what I've found, because I think it's
something every caller should do for themself, however, the one thought I'd
share is the one I find most disappointing:
- Women have expressed that they put up with far more crap from pushy males
than I personally would put up with had the situation be reversed; there is
a far more prevalent sense of resignation of "that's just how things are /
it's not so bad" than I had believed.
in dance,
Ron
On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Aahz Maruch <aahz(a)pobox.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 06, 2013, Tom Hinds wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
I haven't been following this topic of lead/follow at all but Bree's
statement really caught my eye. I'm very curious to know what it's
like to dance as a women with men who have a wide range of skills
and personalities.
I should set aside an evening and dance disguised as a women to
really understand what the experience is like.
Unless you have experience cross-dressing (i.e. can successfully
disguise yourself), your experience will almost certainly be somewhat
different from a woman's. I definitely get treated somewhat differently
by men.
2:47 p.m.
By "crap" I was referring to more than just merely being twirled / dipped
when they didn't want it.
What segregation of lines happens at Glen Echo?
-Ron
On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 9:04 AM, Perry Shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
I am curious - is this seen more often in women than
it is in men playing
the role of the woman? I've been the woman a number of times in dances,
and I do see the pushiness of some males - twirling me when I don't want to
be twirled, even being subject to a (small) dip one time. Generally though
(at least in my home communities) I'm not subject to this. It also doesn't
SEEM like women are resigned to pushy males - most ladies I see seem to
enjoy their twirls and dips - but that could be due to the segregation of
lines that has occurred, at least at Glen Echo.
Perry
________________________________
From: Ron T Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2013 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] women's experiences
I've been having conversations with a lot of my female friends in the dance
community over the past 6 months over their experiences as women. I won't
make a lengthy itemization of what I've found, because I think it's
something every caller should do for themself, however, the one thought I'd
share is the one I find most disappointing:
- Women have expressed that they put up with far more crap from pushy males
than I personally would put up with had the situation be reversed; there is
a far more prevalent sense of resignation of "that's just how things are /
it's not so bad" than I had believed.
in dance,
Ron
On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Aahz Maruch <aahz(a)pobox.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 06, 2013, Tom Hinds wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
I haven't been following this topic of lead/follow at all but Bree's
statement really caught my eye. I'm very curious to know what it's
like to dance as a women with men who have a wide range of skills
and personalities.
I should set aside an evening and dance disguised as a women to
really understand what the experience is like.
Unless you have experience cross-dressing (i.e. can successfully
disguise yourself), your experience will almost certainly be somewhat
different from a woman's. I definitely get treated somewhat differently
by men.
4:03 p.m.
There seems to be one main line of long-time dancers who don't flourish/dip as often
as the younger folks, and there is a line of younger dancers near the door who do lots of
dips/twirls, with various degrees of this happening as you go from left to right (facing
the stage). It's pretty clear - if you want to be dipped/twirled, go in this line,
and if not go in the other line. Lots of folks do go from line to line (I do) but others
stay in their line depending on degree of flourish you want to do.
Perry
________________________________
From: Ron T Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com>
To: Perry Shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com>om>; Caller's discussion list
<callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2013 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] women's experiences
By "crap" I was referring to more than just merely being twirled / dipped when
they didn't want it.
What segregation of lines happens at Glen Echo?
-Ron
On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 9:04 AM, Perry Shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
I am curious - is this seen more often in women than it is in men playing the role of the
woman? I've been the woman a number of times in dances, and I do see the pushiness of
some males - twirling me when I don't want to be twirled, even being subject to a
(small) dip one time. Generally though (at least in my home communities) I'm not
subject to this. It also doesn't SEEM like women are resigned to pushy males - most
ladies I see seem to enjoy their twirls and dips - but that could be due to the
segregation of lines that has occurred, at least at Glen Echo.
Perry
________________________________
From: Ron T Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2013 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] women's experiences
I've been having conversations with a lot of my female friends in the dance
community over the past 6 months over their experiences as women. I won't
make a lengthy itemization of what I've found, because I think it's
something every caller should do for themself, however, the one thought I'd
share is the one I find most disappointing:
- Women have expressed that they put up with far more crap from pushy males
than I personally would put up with had the situation be reversed; there is
a far more prevalent sense of resignation of "that's just how things are /
it's not so bad" than I had believed.
in dance,
Ron
On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Aahz Maruch <aahz(a)pobox.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 06, 2013, Tom Hinds wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
I haven't been following this topic of lead/follow at all but Bree's
statement really caught my eye. I'm very curious to know what it's
like to dance as a women with men who have a wide range of skills
and personalities.
I should set aside an evening and dance disguised as a women to
really understand what the experience is like.
Unless you have experience cross-dressing (i.e. can successfully
disguise yourself), your experience will almost certainly be somewhat
different from a woman's. I definitely get treated somewhat differently
by men.
3:26 p.m.
when i am able to dance these days, i almost always dance the gent's role. i have a
problem with my right foot and too many guys just don't pick up on signals and it gets
tiring for me to tell people to stop yanking me around. but even when i was a dancing
fanatic, there were experienced men i never danced with because they were absolutely sure
they could throw me around no matter how many times i asked them not to.
yup, at some dances, it's just how things are. on the other hand, i've been to
plenty of dances where i've been treated courteously and appropriately, so i tend to
think it is the culture of the particular dance community or region. cheers,barb >
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 06:04:16 -0800
From: pshaf(a)yahoo.com
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] women's experiences
I am curious - is this seen more often in women than it is in men playing the role of the
woman? I've been the woman a number of times in dances, and I do see the pushiness of
some males - twirling me when I don't want to be twirled, even being subject to a
(small) dip one time. Generally though (at least in my home communities) I'm not
subject to this. It also doesn't SEEM like women are resigned to pushy males - most
ladies I see seem to enjoy their twirls and dips - but that could be due to the
segregation of lines that has occurred, at least at Glen Echo.
Perry
________________________________
From: Ron T Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2013 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] women's experiences
I've been having conversations with a lot of my female friends in the dance
community over the past 6 months over their experiences as women. I won't
make a lengthy itemization of what I've found, because I think it's
something every caller should do for themself, however, the one thought I'd
share is the one I find most disappointing:
- Women have expressed that they put up with far more crap from pushy males
than I personally would put up with had the situation be reversed; there is
a far more prevalent sense of resignation of "that's just how things are /
it's not so bad" than I had believed.
in dance,
Ron
On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Aahz Maruch <aahz(a)pobox.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 06, 2013, Tom Hinds wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
I haven't been following this topic of lead/follow at all but Bree's
statement really caught my eye. I'm very curious to know what it's
like to dance as a women with men who have a wide range of skills
and personalities.
I should set aside an evening and dance disguised as a women to
really understand what the experience is like.
Unless you have experience cross-dressing (i.e. can successfully
disguise yourself), your experience will almost certainly be somewhat
different from a woman's. I definitely get treated somewhat differently
by men.
4:07 p.m.
Ugh - that's not good for our community. Y'know, I've been dancing for years,
but often people tell me, hey, don't pull so hard, and I am always happy to adjust
because I do not want to be the cause of someone else's pain or discomfort. I'm
sure that there are probably several dancers who just don't dance with me because I
might have tugged too hard or cranked too hard in the past - all they have to do is say
so. People should be free to express to another dancer, hey, this hurts, don't do
that, and a good dancer should adjust.
Perry
________________________________
From: barb kirchner <barbkirchner(a)hotmail.com>
To: perry shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com>om>; callers(a)sharedweight.net
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2013 10:26 AM
Subject: RE: [Callers] women's experiences
when i am able to dance these days, i almost always dance the gent's role. i have a
problem with my right foot and too many guys just don't pick up on signals and it
gets tiring for me to tell people to stop yanking me around.
but even when i was a dancing fanatic, there were experienced men i never danced with
because they were absolutely sure they could throw me around no matter how many times i
asked them not to.
yup, at some dances, it's just how things are. on the other hand, i've been to
plenty of dances where i've been treated courteously and appropriately, so i tend to
think it is the culture of the particular dance community or region.
cheers,
barb
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 06:04:16 -0800
From: pshaf(a)yahoo.com
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] women's experiences
I am curious - is this seen more often in women than it is in men playing the role of the
woman? I've been the woman a number of times in dances, and I do see the pushiness of
some males - twirling me when I don't want to be twirled, even being subject to a
(small) dip one time. Generally though (at least in my home communities) I'm not
subject to this. It also doesn't SEEM like women are resigned to pushy males - most
ladies I see seem to enjoy their twirls and dips - but that could be due to the
segregation of lines that has occurred, at least at Glen Echo.
Perry
________________________________
From: Ron T Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2013 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] women's experiences
I've been having conversations with a lot of my female friends in the dance
community over the past 6 months over their experiences as women. I won't
make a lengthy itemization of what I've found, because I think it's
something every caller should do for themself, however, the one thought I'd
share is the one I find most disappointing:
- Women have expressed that they put up with far more crap from pushy males
than I personally would put up with had the situation be reversed; there is
a far more prevalent sense of resignation of "that's just how things are /
it's not so bad" than I had believed.
in dance,
Ron
On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Aahz Maruch <aahz(a)pobox.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 06, 2013, Tom Hinds wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
I haven't been following this topic of lead/follow at all but Bree's
statement really caught my eye. I'm very curious to know what it's
like to dance as a women with men who have a wide range of skills
and personalities.
I should set aside an evening and dance disguised as a women to
really understand what the experience is like.
Unless you have experience cross-dressing (i.e. can successfully
disguise yourself), your experience will almost certainly be somewhat
different from a woman's. I definitely get treated somewhat differently
by men.
4:45 p.m.
With regard to roughness during flourishes Perry wrote:
Ugh - that's not good for our community.
Y'know, I've been dancing for
years, but often people tell me, hey, don't pull so hard, and I am always
happy to adjust because I do not want to be the cause of someone else's
pain or discomfort. I'm sure that there are probably several dancers who
just don't dance with me because I might have tugged too hard or cranked
too hard in the past - all they have to do is say so. People should be
free to express to another dancer, hey, this hurts, don't do that, and a
good dancer should adjust.
...Or not. Seems that the default should be to assume everyone wants to be
treated respectfully and gently. No one should ever have to ask for that
care and consideration.
As is always the case: It's the caller's fault. The caller needs to take
full responsibility for everything that happens in the hall. And that
includes unwanted flourishes or roughness in the lines.
With lots of young people at our dances this has sometimes been a problem
here in the Santa Cruz area. When calling I deal with it in short,
positive comments from the mike. I think the caller is in the best
position to set a tone of gracious consideration in the hall.
- Greg McKenzie
4:35 p.m.
Barb,
At the risk of me sounding stupid, I'll ask, because I think it will help
provide good perspective. Feel free to answer less than all of them, as I'm
asking a lot of questions:
- For how long has this gone on?
- What immediate reactions do you get from dancers when you ask them to
stop yanking you around?
- Have you considered talking to dance organizers? Have you talked to them?
What was their response?
- Does this happen at some dances more than others? What common factors
seem to go along with the problem? What common factors seem to go along
with a dance with less of this problem?
in dance,
Ron
On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 10:26 AM, barb kirchner <barbkirchner(a)hotmail.com>wrote;wrote:
when i am able to dance these days, i almost always dance the gent's role.
i have a problem with my right foot and too many guys just don't pick up
on signals and it gets tiring for me to tell people to stop yanking me
around. but even when i was a dancing fanatic, there were experienced men i
never danced with because they were absolutely sure they could throw me
around no matter how many times i asked them not to.
yup, at some dances, it's just how things are. on the other hand, i've
been to plenty of dances where i've been treated courteously and
appropriately, so i tend to think it is the culture of the particular dance
community or region. cheers,barb > Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 06:04:16 -0800
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
From: pshaf(a)yahoo.com
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] women's experiences
I am curious - is this seen more often in women than it is in men
playing the role
of the woman? I've been the woman a number of times in
dances, and I do see the pushiness of some males - twirling me when I don't
want to be twirled, even being subject to a (small) dip one time.
Generally though (at least in my home communities) I'm not subject to
this. It also doesn't SEEM like women are resigned to pushy males - most
ladies I see seem to enjoy their twirls and dips - but that could be due to
the segregation of lines that has occurred, at least at Glen Echo.
Perry
________________________________
From: Ron T Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2013 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] women's experiences
I've been having conversations with a lot of my female friends in the
dance
community over the past 6 months over their
experiences as women. I won't
make a lengthy itemization of what I've found, because I think it's
something every caller should do for themself, however, the one thought
I'd
share is the one I find most disappointing:
- Women have expressed that they put up with far more crap from pushy
males
than I personally would put up with had the
situation be reversed; there
is
a far more prevalent sense of resignation of
"that's just how things are
/
it's not so bad" than I had believed.
in dance,
Ron
On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Aahz Maruch <aahz(a)pobox.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 06, 2013, Tom Hinds wrote:
> >
> > I haven't been following this topic of lead/follow at all but Bree's
> > statement really caught my eye. I'm very curious to know what it's
> > like to dance as a women with men who have a wide range of skills
> > and personalities.
> >
> > I should set aside an evening and dance disguised as a women to
> > really understand what the experience is like.
>
> Unless you have experience cross-dressing (i.e. can successfully
> disguise yourself), your experience will almost certainly be somewhat
> different from a woman's. I definitely get treated somewhat
differently
by men.
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
3:33 p.m.
when i am able to dance these days, i almost always dance the gent's role. i have a
problem with my right foot and too many guys just don't pick up on signals and it gets
tiring for me to tell people to stop yanking me around.
but even when i was a dancing fanatic, there were experienced men i never danced with
because they were absolutely sure they could throw me around no matter how many times i
asked them not to.
yup, at some dances, it's just how things are. on the other hand, i've been to
plenty of dances where i've been treated courteously and appropriately, so i tend to
think it is the culture of the particular dance community or region. cheers,barb >
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 06:04:16 -0800
From: pshaf(a)yahoo.com
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] women's experiences
I am curious - is this seen more often in women than it is in men playing the role of the
woman? I've been the woman a number of times in dances, and I do see the pushiness of
some males - twirling me when I don't want to be twirled, even being subject to a
(small) dip one time. Generally though (at least in my home communities) I'm not
subject to this. It also doesn't SEEM like women are resigned to pushy males - most
ladies I see seem to enjoy their twirls and dips - but that could be due to the
segregation of lines that has occurred, at least at Glen Echo.
Perry
________________________________
From: Ron T Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com>
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2013 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] women's experiences
I've been having conversations with a lot of my female friends in the dance
community over the past 6 months over their experiences as women. I won't
make a lengthy itemization of what I've found, because I think it's
something every caller should do for themself, however, the one thought I'd
share is the one I find most disappointing:
- Women have expressed that they put up with far more crap from pushy males
than I personally would put up with had the situation be reversed; there is
a far more prevalent sense of resignation of "that's just how things are /
it's not so bad" than I had believed.
in dance,
Ron
On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Aahz Maruch <aahz(a)pobox.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 06, 2013, Tom Hinds wrote:
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
I haven't been following this topic of lead/follow at all but Bree's
statement really caught my eye. I'm very curious to know what it's
like to dance as a women with men who have a wide range of skills
and personalities.
I should set aside an evening and dance disguised as a women to
really understand what the experience is like.
Unless you have experience cross-dressing (i.e. can successfully
disguise yourself), your experience will almost certainly be somewhat
different from a woman's. I definitely get treated somewhat differently
by men.
4430
days inactive
4430
days old
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
10 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Aahz Maruch -
barb kirchner -
Greg McKenzie -
Perry Shafran -
Ron T Blechner -
Tom Hinds