13 Mar
2024
13 Mar
'24
3:19 p.m.
Hello!
I was the one who suggested the modified ballroom swing, and I'm going
to respond here to both some of Becky and Jerome's and John's questions/
thoughts.
Women's discomfort in conventional ballroom hold
I did actually mention in my initial email that as a cisgender woman, I
have really appreciated the additional space that the modified ballroom
hold creates between me and the men I dance with.
Actually as a not particularly touchy-feely human being, I appreciate
the additional space it creates between me and anyone I dance with!
But I have especially appreciated the space between me and any male partner.
Interestingly, I didn't think about it too much in the past. I was
fairly comfortable swinging with anyone, and our group has a good vibe
so there isn't much creepiness. I felt fine with the conventional
ballroom swing.
But -- now that we have implemented the modified ballroom hold as the
standard with all neighbours and also as the standard with a partner if
you don't discuss otherwise, it's been *very* interesting....
I've sometimes swung with a male partner who decides to use conventional
ballroom without discussing it --and I suddenly feel VERY
claustrophobic about it!
I will usually say to them when I get a chance - "let's remember to use
the elbow-hold now!" - and as soon as they do, I instantly breath a
sigh of relief. It just feels way more comfortable to me. Without
exception.
-- (and to give these fellows who launch right into conventional
ballroom hold the benefit of the doubt- they tend to be our longest-term
dancers and it I think in a lot of cases they just have a hard time
re-programming - we have only been doing the modified ballroom for about
6 months, and not everyone comes to every dance. I'm giving them time to
get used to the new normal. That said, I am pretty sure there are few
men who think, "oh, she is a caller, she is an experienced dancer, she
will be happy to swing closely with me!" . I have this idea because a
few of them seem to roll their eyes a bit when I remind them that I
prefer to dance with the new modified hold :D Incidentally this has
never happened with a female partner....)...
Inadvertent "boob touching"
This is not something I have ever heard of before in the swing, but
someone did bring it up a few dances ago when we tried to use a
modified, more role-symmetrical hold for the courtesy turn, with both
hands crossed in front. One of our longtime and larger-busted female
dancers told me that this was *not* going to work, due to all the
inadvertent boob touching that happened to her when her partners were
getting into position. So we canned that idea! :) And it made me more
aware of this issue as something to watch out for.
Thanks for drawing attention to it as a potential aspect of the swing.
Robins arm-clamping and robins feeling like they have to skitter backwards
I haven't consciously encountered either of these issues but look
forward to hearing more.
(Jerome's point) -Signalling which flavour of swing to use?
So in our community, we have just made it clear that this modified
ballroom hold is now the new standard.
So, that means for every neighbour you meet, this is how you swing with
them.
And with your partner, this is what is expected --unless the two of you
have a consensual conversation and decide on something else.
(and sometimes for fun we do show partway through the dance, some other
swing holds that partners may like to experiment with, if they are
comfortablewith each other. John S's page has been very helpful in this
regard!! Thank you John :) )
Of course, if two neighbours meet each other in the line and they know
each other well (e.g. maybe they are spouses!), they may spontaneously
do something else becauuse they know each other well enough to feel that
out on the spot. But we make it very clear that you should not assume
that your neighbour or partner wants to do something other than the
standard hold, unless you have an explicit discussion. Since that's not
really feasible with neighbours, it means that neighbours in almost all
cases are going to swing with the modified ballroom and that is that :)
Regarding John's request to get a visual of this hold
- i'll be curious if anyone else on this list is using this new hold, or
if it is just us in Halifax.
I can't even remember now how we came up with the idea. It may have
been through our own experimenting. A bunch of us have been chatting
after some dances about how we can make our figures as
gender-neutral/symmetrical as possible, and we have been trying out all
sorts of different swing holds to see what might work best for us.
Sometimes we start with one of John's examples and then see how it might
be modified if it feels too close. As I suggested above, we've also
been trying to figure out more symmetrical-hold courtesy-turn
alternatives (for robins and larks chains) but so far haven't found a
satisfactory one.
(feel free to start a new thread if you have any ideas!).
John - if nobody else has a photo or video of the hold we're using in
Halifax, I will try to remember to get one for you at our April dance!
writing myself a note, now...
best,
Kat K
Halifax NS Canada
John Sweeney <john(a)modernjive.com>
Please could someone post a picture or video of the modified ballroom
hold that is being discussed? Or send it to me and I will add it to my
Web site with a link so that people can see it.
Thanks.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com
<mailto:john@modernjive.com> 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
Jerome Grisanti via Contra Callers
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 11:36 AM
One challenge is implementation: if the whole group learned the same
swing position, symmetrical or asymmetrical, from scratch, your
proposal would not be a problem unless/until your dancers visited
other dances — and even then. perhaps not a big issue.
In a community with mixed crowds (both experienced and newcomers),
dancers would need to signal which flavor of swing they wanted. And
what about folks with two different preferences meeting for a neighbor
swing?
So developing those signals, and defaults, would be my focus. As for
the swing itself, I believe John Sweeny or one of the other UK members
of the list has a video catalog of various swings on a website. Good
teaching tips too.
Jerome
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Becky Liddle via Contra Callers
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 11:16 AM
In the discussion about some men being uncomfortable doing ballroom
dance hold swing with other men, the modified ballroom hold (hand
above elbow of partner instead of on robin’s shoulder) was mentioned.
In this discussion, much has been said about men who don’t want to do
ballroom hold with other men, but what nobody has mentioned yet is the
scads of women (both straight and queer) who have long been
uncomfortable dancing ballroom swing with men (or often just with
particular men). _I am intrigued by this modified ballroom swing idea
because it might solve many problems at once_.
I have two simultaneous (and conflicting) emotional responses to men
uncomfortable swinging with other men:
The ungenerous one is: "As a lesbian I had to get over my discomfort
swinging with you in order to participate in the joy of contra. If I
can do it, you can do it." But more importantly (and more generously):
_We’d like everyone to be as comfortable at contra dances as is
reasonably feasible_. To that end, I am very interested in this idea
of the modified ballroom hold. It might solve MANY different problems.
Here are a few that come to mind:
1. The enforced intimacy problem: this is not just a problem with
straight men being uncomfortable swinging with other men. There is a
lot of forced intimacy in the ballroom hold. Maybe that intimacy is
not the best thing to force on _anyone_?. Modified ballroom swing
would help with the problem of not wanting enforced closeness/intimacy
with others for all kinds of reasons: keeping distance from the
lecherous dancer who uses the ballroom hold as an excuse for unwanted
intimacy; but also simply to provide a bit of space for folks who
simply aren’t comfortable being that close to ANYBODY. I recently
struck up a conversation with a new dancer who was leaving early
(because we need to know why we’re losing potential dancers) and she
said “It just feels too intimate.” She didn’t say too intimate
swinging with men or with women. Just “too intimate” and I got the
definite feeling that it was the enforced close hold (with /everyone/)
that was difficult for her. I wonder if we would have lost her if we
used the modified ballroom swing (hand above elbow instead of on
shoulder).
2. There are other difficulties with the ballroom hold: sometimes
there is simply not enough room: short arms or large girth can make it
difficult to reach the back of the shoulder of the other partner at
times, and this leaves the Lark in the uncomfortable/dangerous
position of “where do I put my hand now?” While trying to avoid the
“accidental side boob graze” issue.
3. Speaking of which, is nobody else out there having trouble with
this “side boob graze” problem with the ballroom hold? I’m a lesbian
who dances the Lark role because of knee and hip issues. At least
once/evening when moving into or out of the ballroom hold I
accidentally graze the side of my partner’s breast. If I were straight
I wouldn’t worry about it. But as a lesbian my mind always leaps to
“what if she thinks I did that on purpose?” _Do straight men not also
have this problem?? Why is nobody talking about this??_ If the robin
is female-presenting, the back of the robin’s shoulder is dangerously
close to the side of her breast. Which means (a) it’s easy for a
sleaze to cop a feel and pass it off as an accident, and (b) it’s easy
for a lesbian or straight man to truly accidentally graze and then
worry that they’ll be _perceived _as a sleaze. The elbow hold would
solve both of these problems.
4. The robin clamping down their arm problem: Larks, have you ever
danced with a robin who clamps down their arm on your wrist during the
swing? Again, elbow hold would solve this.
5. The problem of robins dancing backwards when swinging: I have never
danced the modified ballroom hold, but I’d like to know from folks who
do: does it solve the problem of many robins feeling like they need to
dance backwards when swinging? On the occasions when I do dance robin
(usually because I’m pairing with a newbie who is dancing lark) I
often find myself skittering backwards in the swing, instead of both
of us walking/dancing forward. I’m not experienced enough as a robin
to fully understand this phenomenon, but I think it has to do with the
closeness and rigidity of some Larks’ hold in the ballroom swing.
Question for folks who have used the elbow hold: does this hold solve
this problem and allow the robin to dance forward instead of backward
in the swing?
I am particularly interested in this issue because I am about to move
from Toronto (where the ballroom hold is firmly established) to an
island off the coast of Vancouver (Bowen Island) where, if I want to
continue to dance, I will have to start my own contra dance. This
conversation has made me wonder whether I should start that group with
the modified ballroom hold to solve many of these problems. _I’d love
to hear from others who have used this swing about the pros and cons
_(if any) and any other advice you’d have for someone starting a dance
using this swing hold.
Thanks!!
Becky Liddle
(Note: my email is changing from beckyliddle(a)bell.net
<mailto:beckyliddle@bell.net> to becky.liddle(a)icloud.com
<mailto:becky.liddle@icloud.com> )
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