[Callers] Re: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and info

The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same variety of swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel holds. Bob contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: sounds like fun! I think video might be more promising? Here's a few annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and each bullet describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame at the timestamp. I only counted each couple once: back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder gent's right hand on lady's back gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back back, lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm behind lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I think of as the standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of variation. cuts. The 1964 video would be another one to try? contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really about?) and desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's intended. approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings. a year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different swing holds, where: (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the cover which he points out in the description is what to follow) lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper arm (Jennings, with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a lady's hands or "behind the upper arm" (Sanella) and holds described by both did include women holding men in ways that were supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that their hand is "resting on top" as with other couples' dances. after I touch on some specific points: supporting right hand." feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely experienced people who lean back. you are limited to the length of the shorter arm." and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size differences. There's always exceptions, sure. again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's less support that's needed to be given. going to be on top of me." the back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in the middle is partially off the shoulderblade. can naturally curve around the shoulderblade. coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward." list here has been dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't a thing I've really experienced or heard discussed. do it? an under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm comes in more open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their right arm before I try and wrap my right arm around. star promenade. rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged, anyway. in the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, and timing their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed. wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women. both people" as a universal and generic skill. seem! contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium that works for both people. that's fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing speed. their style to meet another dancer's differences in size, height, ability, tiredness, injury, age, etc. wrote: persons back, I agree with Joe. length of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space. (Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants their hand on my back.) coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and potentially harmful. contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a complaint about it. robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place." Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.) backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is fairly petite. an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar. works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.) wrote: but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide equal support in the swing. not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow, so it kills any enjoyment in that swing. support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder. juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote: a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing. occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture). That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers - can anticipate every need or difference. switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end on (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes over and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅. without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the traditional ballroom figure. contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm." doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were dancing the lady's role in the standard way? contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one. (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm, bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior change... they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though it was pretty great in other ways. where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible, because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt the lark. communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only pull forward. contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: email thread and observations. his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer. contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if I were just learning this swing. contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful. say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting with (visual at https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin… ) holding just above the elbow. left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right hand.) that in this video referenced by Allan - above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's arm? height of the two dancing partners? arm still be above the Lark's? you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than further apart. love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it! really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one. problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and that it not a lot inless you spin really fast. spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and weight. Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and then lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take their own weight or fall over. it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist. it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some getting used to. Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you could always try the Forearm Swing instead ( http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same principle, but further apart so no bodily contact. 07802 940 574 contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance. That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying yes to one person. few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra feel safer, especially for new dancers. difference. juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com> wrote: feels more "intimate" than other holds? contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net feels more "intimate" than other holds? minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture? crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - though I wouldn't say the default) an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail? >>> >>> In dance, >>> Julian Blechner >>> He/him >>> Western Mass >>> >>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net