13 Mar
2024
13 Mar
'24
5:05 p.m.
oh! wonderful!!
Here is the modified-hold swing I've been talking about, on Jeff K's
page - third photo down!!
labelled under the photo as /arm-hold ballroom swing/
https://www.jefftk.com/p/contra-avoiding-sore-arms
Thanks Jeff!!
/
/Now I'm going to comment to two things again - Julian's comment and
Jeff's comment (both included below).
Julian's question: "why [does] a ballroom hold feels more "intimate"
than other holds?"
For me personally, what I find more "intimate" about the ballroom hold
(and a lot of the other holds), is that it puts me very close to the
other person - closer than in any other figure - and also more "locked
in" - since both hands of both people are involved in maintaining the hold.
And what I noticed in my own body, when in recent dances I've been doing
the elbow-hold ballroom position with most neighbours and a new man
suddenly grabs my waist and pulls me into conventional ballroom hold -
is that I don't really like his hand there on my back. I feel a bit
trapped - like if I wanted to back away a little, I can't.
(I acknowledge I am speaking in gendered terms here, but I feel it is
relevant because for me, this feeling of being excessively close to
someone only seems to come up when I'm dancing with some men. I've never
to my recollection had a woman pull me "too close for comfort").
I'll be curious to hear how others answer this question.
Regarding hand placement- I definitely agree with Jeff's page about the
importance of symmetry - prior to our elbow-hold swing, we always taught
the ballroom swing where both parties put their hands on the other
person's shoulder blade- with the shorter person's arm going under the
taller person's arm. I like the symmetry of it and fully agree that
both parties should be responsible for supporting the other.
And Jeff wrote:
"In general, I would be excited to see common positioning move ... to
where both people are using both of their arms to hold the couple
together, sharing the weight more evenly"
And that's one reason I love this elbow-hold (or "arm-hold" as Jeff
calls it) - I've found this hold gives me an even better connection to
my dancing patner than the shoulder-blade hold.
It doesn't feel easy to cup one's hand in an effective way around
someone else's back - and I agree it asks a lot of the wrist.
I find it much easier to cup my hand around the back of someone's elbow
- it is perfectly hand-sized :) .
Kat K
-----
Julian wrote:
I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold
feels more "intimate" than other holds?
Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our minds
with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture?
Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed
arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me,
though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - though
I wouldn't say the default)
Is it something else?
Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to
an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail?
In dance,
Julian Blechner
He/him
Western Mass
Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:46 PM
"I firmly believe that the best place for the lady's left hand is
resting on the man's upper arm in a relaxed manner."
The biggest downside of this approach is that in a conventional
ballroom hold it puts all the effort of holding the couple together on
the right wrist of the Lark/Gent. I have relatively weak wrists, and
dancing as the Lark with people who rest their left hand on the Lark's
upper arm is somewhere between tiring and painful.
In general, I would be excited to see common positioning move in the
opposite direction, to where both people are using both of their arms
to hold the couple together, sharing the weight more evenly:
https://www.jefftk.com/p/contra-avoiding-sore-arms
Jeff
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Becky Liddle via Contra Callers
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Wednesday, March 13, 2024 11:16 AM
In the discussion about some men being uncomfortable doing ballroom
dance hold swing with other men, the modified ballroom hold (hand
above elbow of partner instead of on robin’s shoulder) was mentioned.
In this discussion, much has been said about men who don’t want to do
ballroom hold with other men, but what nobody has mentioned yet is the
scads of women (both straight and queer) who have long been
uncomfortable dancing ballroom swing with men (or often just with
particular men). _I am intrigued by this modified ballroom swing idea
because it might solve many problems at once_.
I have two simultaneous (and conflicting) emotional responses to men
uncomfortable swinging with other men:
The ungenerous one is: "As a lesbian I had to get over my discomfort
swinging with you in order to participate in the joy of contra. If I
can do it, you can do it." But more importantly (and more generously):
_We’d like everyone to be as comfortable at contra dances as is
reasonably feasible_. To that end, I am very interested in this idea
of the modified ballroom hold. It might solve MANY different problems.
Here are a few that come to mind:
1. The enforced intimacy problem: this is not just a problem with
straight men being uncomfortable swinging with other men. There is a
lot of forced intimacy in the ballroom hold. Maybe that intimacy is
not the best thing to force on _anyone_?. Modified ballroom swing
would help with the problem of not wanting enforced closeness/intimacy
with others for all kinds of reasons: keeping distance from the
lecherous dancer who uses the ballroom hold as an excuse for unwanted
intimacy; but also simply to provide a bit of space for folks who
simply aren’t comfortable being that close to ANYBODY. I recently
struck up a conversation with a new dancer who was leaving early
(because we need to know why we’re losing potential dancers) and she
said “It just feels too intimate.” She didn’t say too intimate
swinging with men or with women. Just “too intimate” and I got the
definite feeling that it was the enforced close hold (with /everyone/)
that was difficult for her. I wonder if we would have lost her if we
used the modified ballroom swing (hand above elbow instead of on
shoulder).
2. There are other difficulties with the ballroom hold: sometimes
there is simply not enough room: short arms or large girth can make it
difficult to reach the back of the shoulder of the other partner at
times, and this leaves the Lark in the uncomfortable/dangerous
position of “where do I put my hand now?” While trying to avoid the
“accidental side boob graze” issue.
3. Speaking of which, is nobody else out there having trouble with
this “side boob graze” problem with the ballroom hold? I’m a lesbian
who dances the Lark role because of knee and hip issues. At least
once/evening when moving into or out of the ballroom hold I
accidentally graze the side of my partner’s breast. If I were straight
I wouldn’t worry about it. But as a lesbian my mind always leaps to
“what if she thinks I did that on purpose?” _Do straight men not also
have this problem?? Why is nobody talking about this??_ If the robin
is female-presenting, the back of the robin’s shoulder is dangerously
close to the side of her breast. Which means (a) it’s easy for a
sleaze to cop a feel and pass it off as an accident, and (b) it’s easy
for a lesbian or straight man to truly accidentally graze and then
worry that they’ll be _perceived _as a sleaze. The elbow hold would
solve both of these problems.
4. The robin clamping down their arm problem: Larks, have you ever
danced with a robin who clamps down their arm on your wrist during the
swing? Again, elbow hold would solve this.
5. The problem of robins dancing backwards when swinging: I have never
danced the modified ballroom hold, but I’d like to know from folks who
do: does it solve the problem of many robins feeling like they need to
dance backwards when swinging? On the occasions when I do dance robin
(usually because I’m pairing with a newbie who is dancing lark) I
often find myself skittering backwards in the swing, instead of both
of us walking/dancing forward. I’m not experienced enough as a robin
to fully understand this phenomenon, but I think it has to do with the
closeness and rigidity of some Larks’ hold in the ballroom swing.
Question for folks who have used the elbow hold: does this hold solve
this problem and allow the robin to dance forward instead of backward
in the swing?
I am particularly interested in this issue because I am about to move
from Toronto (where the ballroom hold is firmly established) to an
island off the coast of Vancouver (Bowen Island) where, if I want to
continue to dance, I will have to start my own contra dance. This
conversation has made me wonder whether I should start that group with
the modified ballroom hold to solve many of these problems. _I’d love
to hear from others who have used this swing about the pros and cons
_(if any) and any other advice you’d have for someone starting a dance
using this swing hold.
Thanks!!
Becky Liddle
(Note: my email is changing from beckyliddle(a)bell.net
<mailto:beckyliddle@bell.net> to becky.liddle(a)icloud.com
<mailto:becky.liddle@icloud.com> )
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