[Callers] Re: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and info

Hi Chris, Thanks! Note that it's a bit more complicated than where the center of mass is: you need the moment of inertia. For example, imagine comparing (a) a point mass at r=1ft and (b) the same mass divided into two bits at r=2ft and r=0ft. The center of mass in case (b) still rotates with r=1ft but the cases aren't equivalent: you need 2x the force in case (b). [1] But you may well be right that the effective radius is under 1ft! Jeff [1] Doing the math: F_a = m (ω2πr)^2 / r = m * r * (ω2π)^2 F_b = m/2 (ω2π(2r))^2 / (2r) + 0 = m * r * 2 * (ω2π)^2 F_a = 1/2 * F_b On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 1:18 PM Chris Lahey &lt;clahey(a)clahey.net&gt; wrote: > I addressed this in my other email, but this is a good example. In this > case my back is providing 100lbf to your hands. > > I also can't imagine being in this position and having centers of mass > two feet apart, but I would want to measure it before making this an > argument, hence going with your numbers. > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 13:15 Jeff Kaufman &lt;jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com&gt; > wrote: > >> Hi Chris, >> >> Thanks for reviewing the calculation! Imagine that I hold you around >> your back with both hands, and you put your hands up in the air and enjoy >> the ride. While I don't think we could get anywhere near 4.5x around in 12 >> beats if you did that, do you agree that where my hands meet your back I'd >> need to provide both enough force for our combined weight? >> >> (I'm not claiming each person needs to provide ~200lb, but that this >> total force must be covered by the couple somehow) >> >> Jeff >> >> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:56 PM Chris Lahey &lt;clahey(a)clahey.net&gt; wrote: >> >>> I think you're trying to calculate two 150lb dancers, but you've >>> calculated for a 300lb mass, but you shouldn't do that doubling. I'm >>> exerting enough force to provide your centripetal force and vice versa. >>> Those forces oppose one another, but they don't add up. That is a factor of >>> two error. >>> >>> I have to think more about one foot radius and 45 rpm and read upthread >>> more. >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 12:25 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>> >>>> I was curious about John's "The shoulder-blade connection is purely to >>>> counteract centrifugal force. That is not normally a lot of force, so it >>>> shouldn’t make you tired." above. While ideally you could measure this, I >>>> don't think swinging with a scale between your hand and partner's back and >>>> your hand would be comfortable, and it would be hard to read. Let's try a >>>> bit of physics. >>>> >>>> If you like to swing quickly you might go 4.5x around in twelve beats, >>>> which is 45rpm at a tempo of 120bpm. Let's guess the people each weigh >>>> 150lb and approximate them as point masses two feet apart. Doing some math: >>>> >>>> r = 1ft >>>> m = 300lb >>>> ω = 45rpm = 0.75 hz >>>> >>>> v = ω2πr >>>> = 0.75 hz * 2π * 1ft >>>> = 4.7 ft/s >>>> >>>> F = mv^2/r >>>> = 300lbm * (4.7 ft/s)^2 / 1ft >>>> = 300lbm * 23ft / s^2 >>>> = 6662lbm * ft / s^2 >>>> >>>> 1lbf = 32.17 lbm * ft / s^2 >>>> 1lbm = 0.0311 lbf * s^2 / ft >>>> >>>> F = 6662 lbm * ft / s^2 >>>> = 6662 * 0.0311 lbf >>>> = 207lbf >>>> >>>> This says you need ~216lb of force to hold the dancers together! If >>>> you're rotating more slowly, perhaps 2.5x in twelve beats, it's still a >>>> significant 64lb. >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> PS: If you want something you can play with, this is (rpm/3 * 3.14)**2 >>>> * weight * 1/32.2 >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:08 PM Jeff Kaufman < >>>> jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>>> Here's a 1989 recording the Portland OR dance did in a recording >>>>> studio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k . I see almost >>>>> all "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, >>>>> lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold (hereafter 'ballroom' though >>>>> as illustrated above that's a fraught term). At 0:58 and then again at >>>>> 1:28, 1:58, 3:02 etc there's a couple with a symmetrical hold where they >>>>> each have their right hand around the other's waist, with their left hands >>>>> joined low in the center. I didn't watch the whole video, so it's possible >>>>> there were other couples that did other holds at some point? >>>>> >>>>> Here's 1987 in Mendocino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q >>>>> . I only see ballroom holds. >>>>> >>>>> Here's 1986 in Cambridge MA: >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q . Outdoor demo >>>>> performance. Almost all ballroom holds, but at 4:04 the couple all the way >>>>> on the right has outer hands in a forearm hold (which they continue doing >>>>> in later iterations of the dance). >>>>> >>>>> Here's 1986 in Francestown NH: >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE At 0:30 I see two >>>>> ballroom holds and two where the outer arms are holding a bit above the >>>>> elbows. At 1:06 I see two ballroom holds, one of the hold from 0:30, and >>>>> one of the symmetrical holds I described in the Portland OR video, though >>>>> note that this is many of the same couples. Jumping ahead to 8:38 I see >>>>> three ballroom holds and where the outer hands hold each other's forearms. >>>>> Separately, I really like how enthusiastic the balances are: you can feel >>>>> the room shake through to the camera! >>>>> >>>>> Here's one labeled 1986 Chico Contra: >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg Almost all ballroom >>>>> holds, except for one couple where the lady's left hand is on the back of >>>>> the gent's right arm instead of behind his shoulder (doesn't look >>>>> comfortable to me!) >>>>> >>>>> Here's 1976 in Bloomington: >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w . Looks like a >>>>> performance. At 0:10 I see three couples where the outer hands are joined >>>>> as in ballroom, the gent's right hand is around the lady's waist, and the >>>>> lady's left hand is again on the back of the gent's right arm. Then >>>>> there's one couple doing the symmetrical swing with left hands joined low >>>>> between their bodies. Same again at 0:44, 1:11, etc. >>>>> >>>>> Here's 1967 somewhere in New England: >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM . I see ballroom at >>>>> 0:35, 0:37, 3:15, 3:16, 5:08, 5:10. Then at 1:05 (and then again in the >>>>> background at 5:11, and then again at 5:23 and 5:33) I see a forearm hold >>>>> with arms that are straighter than I'm used to. At 2:08 I see a hold where >>>>> the gents hands are both around the lady's waist and the lady's hands are >>>>> both over the tops of the gent's shoulders. >>>>> >>>>> Here's 1981 in Belmont MA, but it's an hour and I'm going to bed: >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo >>>>> >>>>> Jeff >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 4:33 PM Stein, Robert &lt;steinr(a)msu.edu&gt; wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same >>>>>> variety of swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel holds. >>>>>> Bob >>>>>> >>>>>> > On Mar 26, 2024, at 16:13, Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Looking through old media to figure out what swing positions were >>>>>> common sounds like fun! I think video might be more promising? Here's a >>>>>> few annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and each >>>>>> bullet describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame at the >>>>>> timestamp. I only counted each couple once: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Cambridge MA, 1990: >>>>>> https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC >>>>>> > * 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms, gent's right hand behind >>>>>> lady's back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm >>>>>> > * 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >>>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder >>>>>> > * 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's left hand on gent's >>>>>> shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back >>>>>> > * 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out, lady's left hand >>>>>> behind gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back >>>>>> > * 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on backs with lady >>>>>> above gent >>>>>> > * 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's inner hand on >>>>>> lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder >>>>>> > * 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out, gent's inner hand >>>>>> on lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm >>>>>> > * 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's shoulders, gent's left >>>>>> hand behind lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back >>>>>> > * 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >>>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder >>>>>> > * 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >>>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder >>>>>> > >>>>>> > The "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >>>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I think of as >>>>>> the standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of >>>>>> variation. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975 clip, but there were >>>>>> too many cuts. The 1964 video would be another one to try? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Jeff >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>>> > Responding to various points. >>>>>> > And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always regional >>>>>> differences (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really >>>>>> about?) >>>>>> > I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a friendly >>>>>> tone and desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's intended. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking >>>>>> approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and >>>>>> Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings. >>>>>> > The short version: despite being contemporaries and the books >>>>>> published a year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different >>>>>> swing holds, where: >>>>>> > - a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the small of the >>>>>> back (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the >>>>>> cover which he points out in the description is what to follow) >>>>>> > - a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom palm-up >>>>>> supporting the lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper >>>>>> arm (Jennings, with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a lady's >>>>>> hands >>>>>> > - a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper arm >>>>>> (Jennings) or "behind the upper arm" (Sanella) >>>>>> > >>>>>> > So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing >>>>>> position, and holds described by both did include women holding men in ways >>>>>> that were supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that their >>>>>> hand is "resting on top" as with other couples' dances. >>>>>> > Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back around to >>>>>> that after I touch on some specific points: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against the >>>>>> Leftie’s supporting right hand." >>>>>> > Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back" may be describing >>>>>> "the feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely experienced >>>>>> people who lean back. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing together >>>>>> because you are limited to the length of the shorter arm." >>>>>> > I don't think this is accurate. >>>>>> > This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade isn't >>>>>> small, and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size >>>>>> differences. There's always exceptions, sure. >>>>>> > Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing >>>>>> shoulderblades. Then again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so >>>>>> there's less support that's needed to be given. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back means >>>>>> you’re going to be on top of me." >>>>>> > I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in the >>>>>> "middle" of the back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in >>>>>> the middle is partially off the shoulderblade. >>>>>> > I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the hand >>>>>> often can naturally curve around the shoulderblade. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then the >>>>>> arms are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting >>>>>> in collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward." >>>>>> > I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think everyone on >>>>>> this list here has been dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't a >>>>>> thing I've really experienced or heard discussed. >>>>>> > So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but people >>>>>> just ... do it? >>>>>> > As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing from a >>>>>> bit of an under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm >>>>>> comes in more open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their >>>>>> right arm before I try and wrap my right arm around. >>>>>> > It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a good >>>>>> connection on a star promenade. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Further to this point, if I were using the traditional "woman left >>>>>> arm rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged, >>>>>> anyway. >>>>>> > Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra bit of >>>>>> work in the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, and >>>>>> timing their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work >>>>>> as wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women. >>>>>> > Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role. >>>>>> > Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role. >>>>>> > Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role. >>>>>> > Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role. >>>>>> > Some men dance with men, some women with women. >>>>>> > Etc. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a swing >>>>>> work for both people" as a universal and generic skill. >>>>>> > Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more automatic than >>>>>> it may seem! >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic aspects >>>>>> of contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to >>>>>> adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium >>>>>> that works for both people. >>>>>> > If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my >>>>>> shoulderblade, that's fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing >>>>>> speed. >>>>>> > I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer can >>>>>> adjust their style to meet another dancer's differences in size, height, >>>>>> ability, tiredness, injury, age, etc. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > In dance, >>>>>> > Julian Blechner >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein &lt;nschlein(a)gmail.com&gt; >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> > Hi Julian, >>>>>> > Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other >>>>>> persons back, I agree with Joe. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the >>>>>> length of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long >>>>>> arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on >>>>>> top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK >>>>>> with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space. >>>>>> (Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants >>>>>> their hand on my back.) >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms >>>>>> are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in >>>>>> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a >>>>>> changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening >>>>>> of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby >>>>>> pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts >>>>>> the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a >>>>>> non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and >>>>>> potentially harmful. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Neal Schlein >>>>>> > Librarian, MSLIS >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>>> > Hi Joe, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's >>>>>> how I teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard >>>>>> a complaint about it. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager >>>>>> robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place." >>>>>> > >>>>>> > That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting >>>>>> Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, >>>>>> it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just >>>>>> workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety >>>>>> of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.) >>>>>> > >>>>>> > The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on >>>>>> the backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when >>>>>> swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on >>>>>> shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is >>>>>> fairly petite. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I >>>>>> have an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient >>>>>> support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the >>>>>> swing hold works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, >>>>>> yeah? But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, >>>>>> because what you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I >>>>>> understand correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.) >>>>>> > >>>>>> > In dance, >>>>>> > Julian Blechner >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington < >>>>>> contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>>> > Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the >>>>>> lark's, but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of >>>>>> years now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same >>>>>> location on the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's >>>>>> back. I know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their >>>>>> newbie workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to >>>>>> provide equal support in the swing. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers >>>>>> are not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do >>>>>> this without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent >>>>>> backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the >>>>>> right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much >>>>>> eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by >>>>>> pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially >>>>>> refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow, >>>>>> so it kills any enjoyment in that swing. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give >>>>>> major support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one >>>>>> Jeff described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on >>>>>> top are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their >>>>>> lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold >>>>>> (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > --jh-- >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner < >>>>>> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>>> > JJ, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the >>>>>> asymmetry of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Joe, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having >>>>>> elbows occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or >>>>>> picture). That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall >>>>>> topic, that everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums >>>>>> is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold >>>>>> handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned >>>>>> callers - can anticipate every need or difference. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > In dance, >>>>>> > Julian Blechner >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ &lt;jcgj95(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>>> > Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip >>>>>> the switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end >>>>>> on (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my >>>>>> left arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is >>>>>> the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell >>>>>> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes over >>>>>> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching >>>>>> roles without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the >>>>>> traditional ballroom figure. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>>> > "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's >>>>>> role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm." >>>>>> > >>>>>> > When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember >>>>>> initially doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I >>>>>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I >>>>>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the >>>>>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were >>>>>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Jeff >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers >>>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>>> > I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a >>>>>> way that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true >>>>>> if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to >>>>>> theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal >>>>>> contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that >>>>>> aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more >>>>>> stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's >>>>>> role (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a >>>>>> moment), we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", >>>>>> which is symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are >>>>>> around the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right >>>>>> arm, bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands >>>>>> around each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost >>>>>> never happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. >>>>>> I'm not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a >>>>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first >>>>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our >>>>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we >>>>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an >>>>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior >>>>>> change... >>>>>> > >>>>>> > In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when >>>>>> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the >>>>>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and >>>>>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't >>>>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though >>>>>> it was pretty great in other ways. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom >>>>>> position where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the >>>>>> same place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually >>>>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible, >>>>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same >>>>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside >>>>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, >>>>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain >>>>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my >>>>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the >>>>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop >>>>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt >>>>>> the lark. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no >>>>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the >>>>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire >>>>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to >>>>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they >>>>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light >>>>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more >>>>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only >>>>>> pull forward. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > --jh-- >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra >>>>>> Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>>> > At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about >>>>>> this email thread and observations. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Short and simple: >>>>>> > A "barrel hold" swing: >>>>>> > - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold >>>>>> > - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, >>>>>> with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we >>>>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided >>>>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > In dance, >>>>>> > -Julian Blechner >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers >>>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>>> > I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above >>>>>> the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think >>>>>> that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to >>>>>> make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s >>>>>> arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is >>>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things >>>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm >>>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if >>>>>> I were just learning this swing. >>>>>> > Becky >>>>>> > >>>>>> >> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra >>>>>> Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at >>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for >>>>>> spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I >>>>>> think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that >>>>>> it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your >>>>>> message: you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been >>>>>> experimenting with (visual at >>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin… >>>>>> ) >>>>>> >> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms >>>>>> that are holding just above the elbow. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with >>>>>> his left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you >>>>>> use in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her >>>>>> right hand.) >>>>>> >> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended: >>>>>> >> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198 >>>>>> >> Starts at 3:18. >>>>>> >> Thoughts? >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston - >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the >>>>>> hold, that in this video referenced by Allan - >>>>>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 or in the photo I >>>>>> shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the >>>>>> Lark's arm? >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative >>>>>> height of the two dancing partners? >>>>>> >> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the >>>>>> Robin's arm still be above the Lark's? >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Thanks all! >>>>>> >> Kat K in Halifax >>>>>> >>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers >>>>>> >>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM >>>>>> >>> Hi Kat, >>>>>> >>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. >>>>>> When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a >>>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than >>>>>> further apart. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty >>>>>> Contras and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a >>>>>> contra dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it! >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that >>>>>> it really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be >>>>>> enough connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. >>>>>> I felt that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt >>>>>> that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was >>>>>> just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest >>>>>> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! >>>>>> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own >>>>>> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and >>>>>> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on >>>>>> the spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance >>>>>> and weight. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much >>>>>> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, >>>>>> and then lots of Aerials: >>>>>> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I >>>>>> shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford >>>>>> to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at high >>>>>> speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I just slow >>>>>> the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take their own >>>>>> weight or fall over. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you >>>>>> will find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem >>>>>> to do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some >>>>>> getting used to. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a >>>>>> Ceilidh Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh >>>>>> ) - you could always try the Forearm Swing instead ( >>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same >>>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Happy dancing, >>>>>> >>> John >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 >>>>>> & 07802 940 574 >>>>>> >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> >>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers >>>>>> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM >>>>>> >>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies >>>>>> and lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a >>>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with >>>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY >>>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance. >>>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying >>>>>> yes to one person. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our >>>>>> group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra >>>>>> dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most >>>>>> important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which >>>>>> we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would >>>>>> not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s >>>>>> always been women who have said this to me over the years), when they come >>>>>> to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is >>>>>> asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes >>>>>> at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make >>>>>> contra feel safer, especially for new dancers. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the >>>>>> difference. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Becky >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner < >>>>>> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a >>>>>> ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> >>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>>>>> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM >>>>>> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a >>>>>> ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in >>>>>> our minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture? >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, >>>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to >>>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - >>>>>> though I wouldn't say the default) >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Is it something else? >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a >>>>>> solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail? >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> In dance, >>>>>> >>> Julian Blechner >>>>>> >>> He/him >>>>>> >>> Western Mass >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> >> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> > >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> >>>