13 Mar
2024
13 Mar
'24
10:35 a.m.
Hi, Becky,
This is one that without a good visual to know exactly what this means, I'm not sure I
like this. The reason why people are taught to put a hand on the shoulder blade is that
the shoulder blade is a good solid part of the body to put a flat hand and provide the
weight to go around in a satisfying swing. I can't imagine this "hand above
elbow" thing. I *have* seen the hand below elbow thing, though, but I feel that
putting weight on the elbow is more likely to cause injury than on the shoulder blade,
especially if you are pushing upwards on a bent elbow. I'm guessing that what you are
describing is something different than I am imagining.
As for the boob problem, that is something that I feel can be solved by good swing
technique. My main issue is when you swing, the hips should be side to side, but the
torso is should still be somewhat square so that my arm doesn't go across the breast.
And as a man I make great effort not to brush against anyone's breast by going around
as best as I can, by going all the way around to the back of the shoulder. And those
times when I do brush against the breast, I apologize profusely, and most people are
understanding, as the apology shows that I'm not there to grope.
I *think* a lot of people can tell the difference between a grope and accident, but
I'm probably wrong about this. I'd like to hear some more thoughts from other
people on this. It would be good to know what to do to help prevent accidental boob
touching.
Perry
On Wednesday, March 13, 2024 at 10:17:30 AM EDT, Becky Liddle via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
In the discussion about some men being uncomfortable doing ballroom dance hold swing with
other men, the modified ballroom hold (hand above elbow of partner instead of on robin’s
shoulder) was mentioned.
In this discussion, much has been said about men who don’t want to do ballroom hold with
other men, but what nobody has mentioned yet is the scads of women (both straight and
queer) who have long been uncomfortable dancing ballroom swing with men (or often just
with particular men). I am intrigued by this modified ballroom swing idea because it might
solve many problems at once.
I have two simultaneous (and conflicting) emotional responses to men uncomfortable
swinging with other men:The ungenerous one is: "As a lesbian I had to get over my
discomfort swinging with you in order to participate in the joy of contra. If I can do it,
you can do it." But more importantly (and more generously): We’d like everyone to be
as comfortable at contra dances as is reasonably feasible. To that end, I am very
interested in this idea of the modified ballroom hold. It might solve MANY different
problems. Here are a few that come to mind:
1. The enforced intimacy problem: this is not just a problem with straight men being
uncomfortable swinging with other men. There is a lot of forced intimacy in the ballroom
hold. Maybe that intimacy is not the best thing to force on anyone?. Modified ballroom
swing would help with the problem of not wanting enforced closeness/intimacy with others
for all kinds of reasons: keeping distance from the lecherous dancer who uses the ballroom
hold as an excuse for unwanted intimacy; but also simply to provide a bit of space for
folks who simply aren’t comfortable being that close to ANYBODY. I recently struck up a
conversation with a new dancer who was leaving early (because we need to know why we’re
losing potential dancers) and she said “It just feels too intimate.” She didn’t say too
intimate swinging with men or with women. Just “too intimate” and I got the definite
feeling that it was the enforced close hold (with everyone) that was difficult for her. I
wonder if we would have lost her if we used the modified ballroom swing (hand above elbow
instead of on shoulder).
2. There are other difficulties with the ballroom hold: sometimes there is simply not
enough room: short arms or large girth can make it difficult to reach the back of the
shoulder of the other partner at times, and this leaves the Lark in the
uncomfortable/dangerous position of “where do I put my hand now?” While trying to avoid
the “accidental side boob graze” issue.
3. Speaking of which, is nobody else out there having trouble with this “side boob graze”
problem with the ballroom hold? I’m a lesbian who dances the Lark role because of knee and
hip issues. At least once/evening when moving into or out of the ballroom hold I
accidentally graze the side of my partner’s breast. If I were straight I wouldn’t worry
about it. But as a lesbian my mind always leaps to “what if she thinks I did that on
purpose?” Do straight men not also have this problem?? Why is nobody talking about
this?? If the robin is female-presenting, the back of the robin’s shoulder is dangerously
close to the side of her breast. Which means (a) it’s easy for a sleaze to cop a feel and
pass it off as an accident, and (b) it’s easy for a lesbian or straight man to truly
accidentally graze and then worry that they’ll be perceived as a sleaze. The elbow hold
would solve both of these problems.
4. The robin clamping down their arm problem: Larks, have you ever danced with a robin who
clamps down their arm on your wrist during the swing? Again, elbow hold would solve this.
5. The problem of robins dancing backwards when swinging: I have never danced the modified
ballroom hold, but I’d like to know from folks who do: does it solve the problem of many
robins feeling like they need to dance backwards when swinging? On the occasions when I do
dance robin (usually because I’m pairing with a newbie who is dancing lark) I often find
myself skittering backwards in the swing, instead of both of us walking/dancing forward.
I’m not experienced enough as a robin to fully understand this phenomenon, but I think it
has to do with the closeness and rigidity of some Larks’ hold in the ballroom swing.
Question for folks who have used the elbow hold: does this hold solve this problem and
allow the robin to dance forward instead of backward in the swing?
I am particularly interested in this issue because I am about to move from Toronto (where
the ballroom hold is firmly established) to an island off the coast of Vancouver (Bowen
Island) where, if I want to continue to dance, I will have to start my own contra dance.
This conversation has made me wonder whether I should start that group with the modified
ballroom hold to solve many of these problems. I’d love to hear from others who have used
this swing about the pros and cons (if any) and any other advice you’d have for someone
starting a dance using this swing hold.
Thanks!!Becky Liddle(Note: my email is changing from beckyliddle(a)bell.net to
becky.liddle(a)icloud.com )_______________________________________________
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